Woodworking "Shaper"

[Dave Sheldrake]

A quick question for all you woody people :)

First off I have to say I know as much about woodworking as most people know about Nuclear Cross Sections so please bear that in mind :)

I've been looking at various machines of late and have been having fun making architrave and such like with a cheap router table (Fox F60 pile of junk) and have seen a "spindle moulder" for just over $6k that looks like it could be fun, does anybody have any tips or tricks or things to watch out for that I need to consider? (apart from losing my fingers in the thing) I plan on doing a few wooden bits with it but machining acrylic is effectively the same as wood (in many cases) so plan on doing a few bits of that sort of thing too.

thanks

Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

Hi Dave.

Tell us more about what you would like to do - Thicknesses, profile types, size of work pieces.

Shapers in the USA are Spindle moulders in most of the rest of the world just so we are clear on terms used.

Many have 3/4", 1.25" and 30mm spindle arbor diameters and many are interchangeable. Making sure you have a 30mm spindle or 1.25" spindle option are two good things to want. Those will allow a great selection of shaper cutters. 3/4" and 1/2" and even router bit spindles are other options. I personally own a 3/4", 1.25" and a ER32 collet capable spindles.

Shapers can also have sliding tables, tilting arbors (some tilt back and others forward), some have digital readouts on heights. Those are all awesome features.

The Shapers fence has a lot to do with its function. The opening of the fence and the diameter of the hole in the table will help define the cutters you can use. It becomes an even bigger factor when the spindle tilts. Tilting a spindle can give a ton more options of profiles from each cutter.

The fence having adjustable bars to surround the cutter and help move wood through the cutter supported is a great feature.

Room for a 1hp 3 or 4 wheel full size feeder is a good thing. Having the mass in your machine to mount one is a great thing.

Ease of access to the controls is a great feature.

Tell us more about the machine you are looking at.

Lots of shaper fans here.

[Dave Sheldrake]

HI Mike,

It all came about with the new house I'm renovating. It has sash windows so I had the bright idea of making new sash units (I'm a pretty good glazier) off to the local machine shop to get a table router (that turned out to be tinplate rubbish) and a set of the combined cutters from Trend to make the sash profiles. Ok so that wasn't such a great idea with all the vibration from the tinplate machine so looked round to see what else I could get. Came across the spindle molders / shapers and figured they would be fun for making stuff like the kids computer desks etc
Reason I looked at a moulder was the nice rigid cast iron top (remembering from when I had a machine shop that rigid is good) and the different profile cutters that could be useful for making stuff like picture rail (I could buy it but just want to try out making for the fun of it)
I looked at a couple of machines the first being this one

http://www.warco.co.uk/wood-combination-machine-woodworking/302861-wood-combination-machine.html

Mostly as I know the guy that owns the company very well so get great prices and then started looking round to see what other stuff was available.

I have rather a lot of lasers from small *hobby* machines at 180 watt up to big industrials but the spindle moulder seems to spark my interest as I get 3d stuff out that none of the lasers can reasonably produce (and I'm hugely inside this years tooling budget so need to get *something*)

Budget isn't too much of a concern but I want to be able to learn as I go along as it were. It may end up being me confusing my ambition with ability but I'd sure like to give it a go, I'll have a lot of fun, learn new things and possibly make something useful :)

cheers

Dave

[Peter Quinn]

You want to make sash with a shaper? The one you listed is not large enough IMO. That translates to a 3HP machine, you could do the basic machining, mold the stiles and rails and jack miter, but thats the hard way. You have a heavy tool budget? trend makes a great set of cutters for sash production, bit $$$ for even a whole house of windows, but what are toys for, requires a heavier class machine. I'm talking modern double gasket tilt hopper euro sash. 5HP minimum, 7hp suggested, sliding table required. I get that making sash on a router is not easy, but I have done it on a good router table, take small bites, you can make some fine sash and save roughly $5500!

To make useful sash you need to be able to flatten stock, dimension it, join it and shape it. A combo might be a good plan depending on what else you own presently as it can satisfy all these needs. But for sash look at something like hammer or equivalent, 4-5hp.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Cheers Peter,

I have 23 windows to do in all (plus maybe another 8 if I have to) plus a lot of mouldings in the main house (its 400 years old) but the windows aren't too much of a concern, I just would have liked to have a go and see what happened. Initial budget for a machine will likely be around $10,000 to $12,000 + whatever I need to spend to get some cutters.
After so many years working with lasers I get tired of looking at 2d cutting all the time and really want a change for the fun time when I'm not using the lasers for work.

cheers

Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Hi Dave, you may want to check out some other options for machinery. If you have the room and power, really good spindle molders, (moulders?), can be had for much less $$$ near you. In your neighborhood you want to look for old Wadkin machines which the larger versions of are serious beasts. If your willing to travel a bit you can hit the mainland and find a LOT of nice candidates. I've seen plenty of nice machines <4k while browsing machineseeker.com. Some of the better machines to look at…Martin T-21's go for short money, Buaerle, and SCM are also fairly common. There are several others that rank up there as well but it's late and the names aren't coming to me at the moment. Anyway I know used machinery is not for everyone, but as an owner of a 69' T-21, I can't imagine how one could ever be disappointed using it!

good luck,
JeffD

[Bob Coleman]

Cross-sections, I don't know. Now if you want to talk buckling . . .

(sorry for the hijack, but I couldn't resist)

[Dave Sheldrake]

Thanks Jeff,

I'm game for looking at anything, I'm really getting into the idea of 3d items rather than flat stuff to play with :)

Bob, Diffusion Equations give me a headache :) Geometric I don't mind but Material is a pest I can live without, as soon as the subject crops up somebody instantly claims to be eating radioactive fish, mention reactors and it leaps to glowing cod right away ;)

cheers

Dave

[lowell holmes]

I have a book "Getting the Most Out of Your Shaper". You can buy it on Amazon for a couple dollars.


http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Most-Out-Your-Shaper/dp/0941936015

I suggest you read the book before you shop for a shaper. It talks about changing spindles, sash making, and many other items. You would have a better picture of what to buy.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Cheers Lowell, off to buy it now :)

Just found this as well http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/1060.pdf I have so got to get myself one of these things...this looks like great fun!!

thanks

Dave

[lowell holmes]

That's the book. I enjoy reading it on occaisions just because. . . . . . . .

I have a shaper that I bought in 1979. It is similar to the ones in the book and is a Delta. I've made block paneling, doors and tongue and groove boards with it. It is the basic machine. I've never been hurt on it, but it is scary. That much carbide spinning that close to your fingers will get your attention.

I suggest getting a machine with a feeder on it. I always wear eye protection, hearing protection and I use special made push blocks. It is the scariest machine I have, but the router in the router table is a close second.

BE CAREFUL !!

[Dave Sheldrake]

Cheers Lowell, I had a full on machine shop for some years with 30,000 rpm + cnc grinders so spinning things have quite a scare value to me ;) I'm one of those over careful sorts who assumes something is going to go wrong and act accordingly.

I'm loving this book!! so much in there I want to know, great tip on it, many thanks

Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Here is a slightly more modern take on the spindle moulder. Should be available over there?

http://www.amazon.com/Spindle-Moulder-Handbook-Eric-Stephenson/dp/0854421505

[Dave Sheldrake]

Here is a slightly more modern take on the spindle moulder. Should be available over there?

http://www.amazon.com/Spindle-Moulder-Handbook-Eric-Stephenson/dp/0854421505

It is indeed and I've just purchased it :) many thanks Peter :)

cheers

Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Here's a video featuring trend's modular window system. Garniga makes a similar thing, Felder sells one, I'm sure others do but the Trend system seems particularly well organized. I've never used it, all the sash I've made have been traditional singlle gasket New England casements or double hungs. Worth a look to see the range of possibilities. Not the HP requirements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPj0roetO4A

[Mel Fulks]

It's interesting . I still prefer single end tenon machine and sticker.

[Peter Quinn]

Mel, I imagine that would be a better option for a shop doing lots of sash, but the shaper seems a bit more versatile for a restoration carpenter or small shop no? I've never used a single end tenoner, how is the set up time to change coping profiles? I can go from cope to sticking on a t-130 slider in under 5 minutes after initial set up of a profile, taking careful note of my heights, making gauge blocks for fence settings.

[Mel Fulks]

I definitely get your point and I am admittedly nostalgic. I guess if I were actually in the market I would have to yield to
ultimate cost considerations.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Awesome, I can see how this will end, I'm going to end up with a machine the size of a small building and $100k in cutters :) (I'm a toolacholic once I get started)

cheers

Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Awesome, I can see how this will end, I'm going to end up with a machine the size of a small building and $100k in cutters :) (I'm a toolacholic once I get started)

cheers

Dave

you will have the most expensive windows in all of the British empire before you are done.....but the satisfaction of having made them your self! Forget tooling, it's the glass and hardware that will kill you. Large fenistration outfits work out whole sale pricing arrangements in volume. Custom insulated glass panels are very expensive here, and brass hardware befitting a bespoke sash is no cheap affair either. So start early on making those arrangements. Look at vacuum insulated glass for restoration work.

[Dave Sheldrake]

you will have the most expensive windows in all of the British empire before you are done.....but the satisfaction of having made them your self! Forget tooling, it's the glass and hardware that will kill you. Large fenistration outfits work out whole sale pricing arrangements in volume. Custom insulated glass panels are very expensive here, and brass hardware befitting a bespoke sash is no cheap affair either. So start early on making those arrangements. Look at vacuum insulated glass for restoration work.

I'm pretty lucky Peter, I was lead draughtsman for a big glazing company for some time and they let me tag my orders onto theirs at no extra cost ;)

cheers

Dave

[Dave Sheldrake]

This is great, I've already found about £8,000 worth of cutters I want!

Any thoughts on this one for some light work to try out before I go buy a 3ph monster?

http://www.axminster.co.uk/media/downloads/501209_manual.pdf

cheers

Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Looks like a minimax t45 clone, 4hp, thats a decent place to get started, I have an old minimax t40 and its plenty capable of doing moldings and some sash work. Could be your cope cutter after you buy the Martin........

Having a good glass source is quite a plus in window making. Oh and the cutters, much more expensive than the machine. I remember when I got my first shaper, I only had one small rebate head, all I could do was tiny rebates, very frustrating. A shaper isn't much good without tooling. Or wood for that matter!

[Dave Sheldrake]

Book arrived today! (that's my evening sorted)

Ordered the Axminster machine and £6k in cutters (Euro type) 3 weeks delivery for the machine but cutters here tomorrow :) power feed thingy on the way as well :)

It's a lot of years since I had the chance to use any kind of machinery just for the fun value :( I'm really looking forward to this!

best wishes

Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Enjoy that...I look forward to some saw dusty pics posted....cause if there are no pics it didn't happen!