Sawstop or small combo machine?

[Tim Fradette]

Looking to solicit some feedback on the following:

I will be moving into a new house in a few months and finally will have dedicated shop space in the basement that will not have to double as the laundry room. The new space is rather small, approx. 12 x 20 with really nice ceiling hight.

I current setup is:
a harbor freight bench top TS which is woefully inaccurate and underpowered
and dewalt RAS which is good at cross cutting but I am afraid to use for ripping
a nice old grizzly bench top drill press
a small bench top bandsaw
i currently break down sheet goods on the floor with circular saw (not really happy with the quality of the cut)

I am am going to sell the RAS when I move and replace with a new sliding compound mitre saw.

The initial main projects will be kitchen cabinets and finishing the basement which will include large built-ins. When the honey do list is completed, I would like to try making furniture for the house.

My wonderful wife has given me permission to outfit the new shop as I see fit so I can work accurately and safely. I am stuck on if I should buy the sawstop pcs (1.75 or 3hp?) outfitted with the incra TS-LS fence and router table combo or the mini max c26 genius small combo machine. If I went with the SS I would purchase a mini max j/p combo machine once I start building furniture.

As I see it, the benefits/concerns of the SS/incra combo would be:
the safety system
the ease of cutting dove tails on the incra system
but it would have a larger footprint once I buy a j/p combo down the road

the mini max combo:
4 quality machines in one small footprint
the sliding table for the saw and shaper
probably easier to cut sheet goods accurately
the shaper would be easier for raised panel doors and milling moulding.


I also will be buying a new bandsaw and portable cyclone dust collector to go into the shop.

Which would you choose? All opinions welcomed.

[Prashun Patel]

Personally, I'd rather get a cheaper CMS and put that money towards the other machines.

If you go Sawstop, you might wait on the Incra LS/TS. It's a nice-to-have, but there are other ways to do quality joinery. Starting out, I'd prefer to upgrade the bandsaw.

[Chris Padilla]

Do a search on the C26 Genius here...someone just bought one. I dunno how well it would fit in your space but you should investigate this because it WOULD be nice having all those machines in one footprint...maybe! :)

I did the "SS/Incra" combo thing many years ago and eventually got a MM FS41 Elite J/P (16") and it has all worked out well for me in my garage. There is no way I could have handle a separate jointer and planer plus I get a really wide jointer and a reasonably wide planer in one footprint. The Tersa head on this is fabulous and so darn easy and quick to change.

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?213843-Genius-in-the-house

Here it is!

[Loren Woirhaye]

You might consider something like the Eurekazone saw guide setup, a small vintage tilt-top table saw for joinery, a 16" or larger band saw and the jointer/planer machine. A table saw set up for cabinetmaking cuts can really eat up a lot of space. Consider a pantry side may be 72" long x24" wide and will need crosscutting on both ends, that's 6' of board sticking out to the left of where the table saw blade protrudes through your cut-off box. How are you going to have room to do that and also rip 8' ply without turning the table saw in a space like that? Then you've got the fence and extension table sticking out on the left. A pop-up HTC roller frame can be mounted on the back of a cabinet saw and will support a full 4x8 sheet. Truth is though you will probably get truer cuts in sheet goods using a track saw. There's a lot of opportunity for user error in muscling a 90lb. sheet onto a table saw and keeping it dead-on with the fence and feeding it at the same time.

Of course the 5 function combo machine has a format sliding table which is great for the crosscuts and the machines are easy to turn for different cuts. Attaching an outfeed table may be awkward through so what are you going to do? Have a bench/outfeed on wheels you have to clean off every time you want to do a long rip? Roller stands?

See what I'm getting at? You'll work around any choice you make of course.

[Earl Rumans]

If you have the money I would get the C26. The slider saw is just as safe as the SS and you have all the advantages of the other machines without sacrificing floor space. The shaper will be better fro raised panel doors and you can always add a stand alone router table later for the smaller stuff.

[Shawn Pixley]

I am likely unrepresentative so take my advices as you like. I am admittedly tablesaw centric and do most other operations by hand. When all you had was a tablesaw and got good at using it to full advantage you develop a habit. I don't have a power jointer nor do I need one.

I would do the SS (probably without the Incra) and ditch the RAS. I don't need a jointer nor shaper. The planer is used every so often. For large work, I like the benchtop mortiser. A drill press is incredibly handy. I don't build cabinetry or use sheet goods though.

I am currently conflicted about a router table. I have one with an Incra fence that I very seldom use (1x in 2 years). I would love the space back. But there are somethings where a router table is so incredibly handy (pattern routing & roundovers on narrow / small stock.

Good luck and enjoy the journey.

[Rod Sheridan]

As someone who replaced his cabinet saw, jointer, planer and shaper with a combination machine, I suggest you do that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV8A3XK3R0I&list=PLjfKarWyTjJghj0ANlltAYVtfHZUy9mCw

Please watch this video all the way through to give you a good idea of waht a combination machine is like to use.

I would never go back to a cabinet saw............Rod.

[Peter Kelly]

C 26 all the way.

[Albert Lee]

I would go for Minimax combination machine... I recently bought a Minimax bandsaw and vey happy with the quality.

I own a medium size combination machine(16" planer, 12' stroke 14" saw) and I use it for small production. I never use the mortise function though.

[David Kumm]

I could not imagine not having at least a short stroke slier and would want a saw shaper combo with a table able to either crosscut 50 or 60". They can be used as a traditional for ripping or you can use a bandsaw but the flexibility of a sliding table for furniture work is so great I even have a little Hammond trim saw tucked in the corner. Takes up almost no room but get used on almost every project. Dave

[mreza Salav]

I would prefer two separate combos (e.g. a saw/shaper + J/P) instead of a all packed into one machine. You loose something to gain the space saving they provide.

[Rich Engelhardt]

The initial main projects will be kitchen cabinets and finishing the basement which will include large built-ins. When the honey do list is completed, I would like to try making furniture for the house.
Regardless of what else you get, I'd give strong consideration to buying a Festool track saw.
You can use it for the cabinets and built ins, then turn around and sell it.

Festool stuff is expensive - but - it sells extremely fast used and holds it's value extremely well - aside from being just a pure pleasure to work with.
(which may work against you since you may not want to sell it once you use it ;) )

[Frederick Rowe]

Without question, go for the C26, the MM16, and don't look back. Don't buy a CMS until you've had time to work with a sliding table saw and see if you still think you need one. Unless you do trim carpentry, I doubt you'll miss it. I already had a Unisaw with the Jessem sliding fence (which is nice, but not in the catagory as a dedicated sliding table saw) and decided to get the FS30 and MM16. At some point I'll likely replace the Unisaw with the SC2 sliding table saw or the ST3 Saw/Shaper. The MiniMax quality and customer service is outstanding. I considered the Felder, but cost swung to the MM - I'm sure I'd be just as satisfied with the Felder - when similarly equipped.

The SawStop is a quality table saw, but the C26 is simply in another category. You won't be upgrading again. One other suggestion I got from MM's Sam Blasco. I was concerned about the infeed/outfeed table length of the FS30 compared to the DJ20 it replaced. He suggested looking at the Aigner line of machine accessories. http://www.martin-usa.com/cms/_main/aigner/catalogue.html At Sam's suggestion I bought the table extensions and extra mounting brackets so they can be used on either the MM16 or FS30.

[Tim Fradette]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I appreciate it. Have some thinking to do.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

While I am the proud owner of a MiniMax smart combo machine, I think you would be best suited with the SS and the FS30.
If I'm wrong, (rarely) you can sell them in a minute.
Combo's are a pretty hard sell on the used market, and boy would I hate to move one down a set of stairs.

[Rod Sheridan]

[QUOTE=Mike Hollingsworth;2275649
and boy would I hate to move one down a set of stairs.[/QUOTE]

I moved mine downstairs by myself without issue. (Well my cat helped in his own way).

The combo machine is so much better than NA style machines it's no comparison.................Rod

[mreza Salav]

Just to be clear, I have a SS and a J/P minimax and am quite happy with both. If I were to give up my SS (very unlikely) the only one I'd replace it with would be a big slider with long strokes.

[Don Huffer]

I never learned the combo machine way. I almost bought one about 25 years ago. I'm too much into jumping from one station to another. But if I had a smaller place. Maybe I could learn.

I see the quality in the SS but hate the whole concept.

Don

[Ralph Okonieski]

I bought the C26 earlier this year and am comfortable it was the right decision for me. My shop is about the same size as yours. If you live or are traveling thru NE Ohio, you are welcome to stop by to see my setup. I'm still learning how to best use the sliding table. It does take a little more planning ahead to keep from constant machine changeover but that was expected. The Tersa knives are great.

Moving it into the basement was an adventure. I hired a piano moving company to do it. They also move other heavy equipment. I'd use them again.

I use a track saw to break down plywood in the garage and then cut pieces to final size in the shop.

[Jim Andrew]

I bought a new 79 48 Hammer sliding tablesaw this last winter, and just have to marvel at the straight edges and perfect square ends I get when squaring up panels. I would not order the clamp for the sliding table again, Kreg automatic clamps work better. But for gluing up panels, the straight line rip works amazing! And crosscutting on the slider with the outrigger is so nearly perfect square. If I were cutting sheets full time, would want a longer slider. But luckily, I am retired from full time woodwork, and the Hammer is great for me. I really would like the saw shaper combo, but for the Felder, you would have to add about 10,000 to what I paid for the Hammer. That Genius really looks like a great deal for the saw, shaper, planer jointer combo.
If I were looking at the minimax combo, think I would take a little trip and visit Ralph and his new machine. Bought my Hammer based on the posts on this forum, but you just can't beat seeing one in person.

[Derek Stockley]

One thing nobody has mentioned is that the incra TS fence takes up a tremendous amount of space. As somebody who is working in 10x20', I am 99% sure you'd regret that fence. I had an opportunity to buy a used C26 at one point, and it's a great looking machine, but I passed because it requires good clearance on all sides when you consider the infeed and outfeed space required to use it. I think you may find it difficult to use in your available space and you'd end up moving it around a lot for clearance.

Since you have the advantage of having specific projects planned out, you might want to consider buying what you need for each project. The projects you're planning have a lot of bulky assembly work and I think you'll find floor space more valuable than some of the machines you're planning to buy until you get to the less bulky furniture projects. For example, I think you're actually better off without a big band saw, jointer and planer until you finish your bigger built-ins, unless you're planning to do a whole bunch of details in solid lumber.

I've had my eye on a Hammer B3 for quite some time now, which would be great for your built-in projects because of all the sheets you're going to use, and I already own a Hammer A3-26, which is a terrific jointer planer for use in tight spaces. Personally, I think the 4-in-1 combos aren't as good for a small rectangular space as two 2-in-1's. I have both my table saw and my A3-26 up against the same wall, and the dust pipe runs along that wall out of the way. Also, because I've been considering the B3 for a long time, I'll point out why I haven't (yet) pulled the trigger: 1) I'm not confident that I have the space required to benefit from it - sliders need lots of clearance unless you don't mind repositioning to cut, 2) I work mostly with smaller parts in solid wood whereas sliders excel at handling sheets - ripping narrow rails and stiles with a slider still means hand-feeding on the rip fence, and 3) I have a cast iron wing on my current contractor table saw that houses my router lift that would need a new home. My alternate plan is a saw stop 3hp PCS with the 36" Biesemeyer style fence with my cast iron router wing on the right side and eventually getting a track saw for cutting larger panels that I wouldn't have the clearance to cut with a sliding saw in my space anyway.

[Loren Woirhaye]

I work in about a 20x20 shop and I have my short stroke Felder slider for sale because the thing dominates the shop too much... I found a Tannewitz JS with less rip capacity and a giant miter gauge and sliding table instead. Set up the Felder is about 9 ft. wide with the crosscut fence sticking out 52" to the left of the blade. If table saw sheet goods work dominated what I do I would keep it, but I have to make room for other machinery related to joinery and making patterns and things like that which I use in making furniture. I could definitely live with the Felder as a lifetime saw and I may regret selling it to move the Tanny in, but the space it presently gobbles up has me in a pattern of moving stuff around with a pallet jack every day.

[Earl Rumans]

Tim, I have the Jet Xacta saw with the Incra TS/LS joinery system and their router table built into my saw. I am very happy with this combination. This is similar to what you are talking about, except for the Jet instead of the SS. I also have very limited space to work in but I don't really see the Incra as a draw back. Sure it takes up a lot of space when you are using the saw, because the positioner slides out so far. When I am using the saw I am not doing something else at the same time, so the positioner taking up space doesn't bother, as I am not using that space at the time. When I am not using the saw I just slide the fence over so the end of the positioner is not past the end of the saw table. In this position it's not taking up any extra space.

I think you would be happy with the SS, Incra setup but I think you would be better off in the long run with a combo machine.

[Ralph Okonieski]

As Derek suggested, I move the C26 frequently. Sometimes I simply need to rotate it a little to gain a little crosscut length but it was expected. It took me a long time to make the decision but am glad I finally made the purchase.

[David Kumm]

I work in about a 20x20 shop and I have my short stroke Felder slider for sale because the thing dominates the shop too much... I found a Tannewitz JS with less rip capacity and a giant miter gauge and sliding table instead. Set up the Felder is about 9 ft. wide with the crosscut fence sticking out 52" to the left of the blade. If table saw sheet goods work dominated what I do I would keep it, but I have to make room for other machinery related to joinery and making patterns and things like that which I use in making furniture. I could definitely live with the Felder as a lifetime saw and I may regret selling it to move the Tanny in, but the space it presently gobbles up has me in a pattern of moving stuff around with a pallet jack every day.

Loren, I would have though the JS 250 was a larger footprint than a short stroke Felder with a shorter fence bar. I'd be interested in your take on the Tanny and its sliding table arrangement. My Whitney is my favorite saw but I have never found an old cast iron slider that rivaled the Felder or other new AL table for smooth movement. Dave

[Loren Woirhaye]

I'm not about to cut the Felder bar off to find out. That's the thing. The actual base cabinet area is pretty close on the two saws. It's a JS, not a JS 250. They look similar in pictures but I think the 250 is bigger. It's definitely not as nice as the Felder sliding table but it does have some virtues. There will be some tradeoffs for sure, I'll find out for myself. The Tanny main table, slider included is 44"x38" wide. Video of me talking about making parts for it with the saw in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m14r05-5ebo