first molding planes

[Kelly Cleveland]

I have always hated using routers to do molding so I was thinking about getting a few hollows and rounds, but I wasn't sure what sizes would be best. I happened to notice a few on lee valley that were very affordable, but I wasn't sure if they were good.http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=64009&cat=1,41182
Has anyone used these? I figured after the individual shipping costs, it would be cheaper and easier to buy these than to hunt down a bunch on ebay.
Thanks.

[paul cottingham]

Read Matt Bickfords "mouldings in practice." He makes a very good case for needing only a few pairs of hollows and rounds, along with snipes bills and half rounds to make practically any profile you might ever need. A seriously great book.

[Tom M King]

I use them a lot in my work. Most of mine came from ebay for less than 20 bucks. I've bought probably over a hundred over the years. I just have them on my follow list. If we need to make a few feet of something to match other moldings, the hand planes are the quickest way. Don't get one with a pitted iron, and not one that's spent it's life in a barn. I've had best luck with English planes. I don't understand why anyone would pay a couple of hundred dollars for one when there are so many available cheap. I like Japanese floats to tune one up if needed. Check out some of the pictures on my website HistoricHousePreservation.com I even used the H and R's to match some large bed molding on an early 20th Century house not too long ago out of big box Poplar, because the trip to where I could buy some would have taken longer.

[Alan Schwabacher]

With regard to the inexpensive Lee Valley Asian hollows and rounds, they may work just fine, but will not be appropriate for the full range of profiles you can make with western ones of the same sizes. That's because western ones are like rabbet planes in that the iron extends to both sides of the plane, allowing the profile to be cut next to another feature.

[David Weaver]

What Alan said. The best way to get them inexpensively is to make them. You can make better planes than you're likely to find.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

+1 on the Bickford book. It's quite good. I think the extra fillet (?) on the asian planes would bother me. I like to tilt them sometimes for various reasons, and that would obstruct that. I also personally enjoy the hunt for planes nearly as much as the use, so I'm probably the wrong guy to offer opinions on that, but if you want a nice user set for no trouble, the plane sellers can help you out. I strongly recommend Patrick Leach and have had good experiences with Lee Richmond's company. There are a bunch more good ones out there too. Just tell one of them what you want, and wait on the delivery.

[Daniel Rode]

I'd like to make some moulding and other planes. In fact, I want to make a 1/4" drawer bottom plane as well (probably first). Your great step-by-step post really helps (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?214301-Time-to-build-two-quickie-drawer-grooving-planes-step-by-step).

For me, these are common tasks done with a power router that I'd prefer to do by hand because it would be quieter, safer and more satisfying. Where I get stuck is the irons. I'm not a skilled metalworker. I'll learn and do as much metalworking as I have to to support working wood with hand tools but it's only a means to that end. At this point, cutting hardening and tempering an iron for one of these is beyond my skill set and my tool set.

Am I better off looking for completely functional tools on the auction site or can the irons be purchased somewhere at a reasonable cost?


What Alan said. The best way to get them inexpensively is to make them. You can make better planes than you're likely to find.

[Zach Dillinger]

I'd like to make some moulding and other planes. In fact, I want to make a 1/4" drawer bottom plane as well (probably first). Your great step-by-step post really helps (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?214301-Time-to-build-two-quickie-drawer-grooving-planes-step-by-step).

For me, these are common tasks done with a power router that I'd prefer to do by hand because it would be quieter, safer and more satisfying. Where I get stuck is the irons. I'm not a skilled metalworker. I'll learn and do as much metalworking as I have to to support working wood with hand tools but it's only a means to that end. At this point, cutting hardening and tempering an iron for one of these is beyond my skill set and my tool set.

Am I better off looking for completely functional tools on the auction site or can the irons be purchased somewhere at a reasonable cost?

The irons can be purchased, but not inexpensively. They can be made in your shop at slightly less cost, but the question you have to ask is do you want to make tools or do you want to make furniture? If the latter, just buy a set. Bode has harlequin sets for less than $400 every day of the week, and the other tool dealers frequently have them as well. My personal set is a c. 1770 Gabriel full set from Patrick Leach. I would literally run into a burning building to save them. I can't imagine being that attached to some planes I made.

[David Weaver]

I can't imagine being that attached to some planes I made.

I'd run past yours to get my H&Rs, but my H&Rs are much different than the quick-and-sloppy drawer bottom plane that I made above. I would watch those burn and not be offended by it.

If a set can be had for $400 and needs little work and little iron work, that's a good way to go. It'll cost about $200 in floats to make your experience building H&Rs pleasant (you can make your own, too, but I'd call that less pleasant except for the floats that are easy to make), and it costs me about $10 in material to make each H&R that I have. The reason to make your own in H&Rs is unlike bench planes, it's very easy to make a better plane than you can find. In fact, if someone follows Larry Williams' DVD including the making of the iron, it's extremely difficult to not make a very good plane - though it takes time. Probably 8-10 hours per pair if you do the entire bit by hand, which is fast for planes in general, but not insubstantial. The catch is that the cost is pretty minimal IF you can bring yourself to sell the floats when you're done, and the planes are straight and true. In my opinion, anything other than cheek and edge floats are better left to Ln and their milling machine, or whatever cuts the teeth. The edge and cheek floats can be made pretty easily.

[David Weaver]

I'd like to make some moulding and other planes. In fact, I want to make a 1/4" drawer bottom plane as well (probably first). Your great step-by-step post really helps (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?214301-Time-to-build-two-quickie-drawer-grooving-planes-step-by-step).

For me, these are common tasks done with a power router that I'd prefer to do by hand because it would be quieter, safer and more satisfying. Where I get stuck is the irons. I'm not a skilled metalworker. I'll learn and do as much metalworking as I have to to support working wood with hand tools but it's only a means to that end. At this point, cutting hardening and tempering an iron for one of these is beyond my skill set and my tool set.

Am I better off looking for completely functional tools on the auction site or can the irons be purchased somewhere at a reasonable cost?

Making irons isn't difficult - if you have a decent hack saw and a metal scribe, you can mark and cut anything when they are annealed. If you have a belt sander, you can put a mild taper on them, too. It is easier, to me, to make an iron out of 1/8" stock than it is to find something suitable to reshape.

LN makes tapered blanks, but you do have to do the final sizing of the business end of the iron and you still have to harden and temper them. Hardening and tempering O1 is easy as long as you've seen someone else do it once.

[David Weaver]

The irons can be purchased, but not inexpensively. They can be made in your shop at slightly less cost, but the question you have to ask is do you want to make tools or do you want to make furniture? If the latter, just buy a set. Bode has harlequin sets for less than $400 every day of the week, and the other tool dealers frequently have them as well. My personal set is a c. 1770 Gabriel full set from Patrick Leach. I would literally run into a burning building to save them. I can't imagine being that attached to some planes I made.

Just looked at bode's page, and given the number of sets under $400 that appear to be decent, I'd probably think pretty hard about buying one of those sets and using them. They definitely weren't so easy to find when I started to make mine. Some of bode's prices have dropped a fair amount since he got off of ebay.

[Zach Dillinger]

I'd run past yours to get my H&Rs

And I don't blame you one bit. We all have different priorities. I would prioritize the things I can't easily replace.


Just looked at bode's page, and given the number of sets under $400 that appear to be decent, I'd probably think pretty hard about buying one of those sets and using them. They definitely weren't so easy to find when I started to make mine. Some of bode's prices have dropped a fair amount since he got off of ebay.

Bode's prices have come down a lot. I've only bought a few things from him but those that I have bought have been as described. And his pricing on H&Rs seems pretty fair.

[David Weaver]

And I don't blame you one bit. We all have different priorities. I would prioritize the things I can't easily replace. Though I might consider trying to carry both given you mentioned pre 1800.

There is a serious problem right now with making your own planes, too, and that's finding QS beech. QS cherry is OK from a practical "can it be used" standpoint, but definitely not if beech is available.

[Zach Dillinger]

Though I might consider trying to carry both given you mentioned pre 1800.

There is a serious problem right now with making your own planes, too, and that's finding QS beech. QS cherry is OK from a practical "can it be used" standpoint, but definitely not if beech is available.

True enough. The guys at my local lumberyard occasionally get some in. I can make an inquiry about obtaining a larger quantity if anyone is interested. I don't know about 12/4 or thicker, but I've seen 6/4 in the store in the past.

[Daniel Rode]

The "Bode" you speak of is Jim Bode Tools?

[David Weaver]

Yes.
.......

[Steve Voigt]

I'd like to make some moulding and other planes. In fact, I want to make a 1/4" drawer bottom plane as well (probably first). Your great step-by-step post really helps (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?214301-Time-to-build-two-quickie-drawer-grooving-planes-step-by-step).

For me, these are common tasks done with a power router that I'd prefer to do by hand because it would be quieter, safer and more satisfying. Where I get stuck is the irons. I'm not a skilled metalworker. I'll learn and do as much metalworking as I have to to support working wood with hand tools but it's only a means to that end. At this point, cutting hardening and tempering an iron for one of these is beyond my skill set and my tool set.

Am I better off looking for completely functional tools on the auction site or can the irons be purchased somewhere at a reasonable cost?

Another option is to find old moulding plane irons on ebay. The plane iron shop in the UK has them from time to time, but you can also find them domestically once in a while.
You could also try emailing Josh at Hyperkitten.com. I've bought a few miscellaneous irons from him at very reasonable prices.
I certainly agree with Dave and others that making your own irons is a worthwhile skill to have, but if you're not ready, or aren't tooled up for it yet, the above options can work.

[Judson Green]

David

Is there a YouTube video on this?

[David Weaver]

For Larry? Actually, I think Larry may show himself heating and tempering an iron somewhere else, but it's on his video for making side escapement planes.

Found it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMLJeBhyTis

There's a much longer discussion of what's going on in larry's DVD, but the important part to this is there is a pre-heated quench of vegetable oil somewhere that he's quickly getting the iron to once those pools of migrating carbon appear on the surface of the iron.

O1 steel tempering schedules are everywhere, and on O1 ordered from mcmaster carr (starrett brand) there's a tempering schedule right on the package (and the temperatures are in the range of a normal kitchen oven, so tempering is easy and safe from error if your oven is accurate).

(I will wait for george to appear, I don't believe george advocates allowing those pools of carbon to appear before quenching).

[Judson Green]

Is this video relevant?

Heat Treating 01 Tool Steel Plane Blank Irons at …: http://youtu.be/whGlJy7l_DE

[Brian Ashton]

I have always hated using routers to do molding so I was thinking about getting a few hollows and rounds, but I wasn't sure what sizes would be best. I happened to notice a few on lee valley that were very affordable, but I wasn't sure if they were good.http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=64009&cat=1,41182
Has anyone used these? I figured after the individual shipping costs, it would be cheaper and easier to buy these than to hunt down a bunch on ebay.
Thanks.

I've used them. They're not bad. All of them need to be tuned to work. I bought them when they were much cheaper so were for the most part worth it. At the price now I'm not entirely sure they're worth it.

[Daniel Rode]

It is for me. Thanks for the link.

Is this video relevant?
Heat Treating 01 Tool Steel Plane Blank Irons at …: http://youtu.be/whGlJy7l_DE

If I could only retire right now, I'd have time to do all the stuff I have on todo my list. I like my job but it's getting in the way of the work I want to do for fun :)

[Judson Green]

The part when the guy is deep frying the iron at about 350° for an hour...

Is that easier to do in the oven? Does the iron need to be in an oil bath? Could ya do the oil bath in the oven?

[Chris Griggs]

I was going to make my own..I even have Dave's copy of Larry Williams video, then I just happened to run across a half-set in nice condition for about $340. Its double harlequin, but all UK made and in very good condition...the worst pair took about an hour to get working and if I had actually known what I was doing it would have taken more like 30 minute, but most needed little else then light regrinding/reshaping of the blade. I was all ready to make my own, and I do enjoy making tools, but in this case I wanted something I could put to work straight away.

Anyway all that is to say, that I agree with others that if you can find a half-set for under $400 (or a few good pairs for a good price) from someone who you can trust isn't selling you something that will need a lot of reshaping/new wedges/new irons then it is the way to go. Even though I probably don't a half-set, and even though making my own would have been cool, I'm really glad I ran across mine and ended up going that route...it was nice to be able to put them straight to use.

[David Weaver]

I was half looking for that video yesterday, and I couldn't remember if I'd had it loaned out or not!

[Tom M King]

I agree with buying a set for around $400. I bought all mine individually, but figured out by the time I was well into it that buying a set would have been easier. Amazingly, I only bought one that chattered. It had a replacement wedge that fooled me in the pictures. It wasn't hard to fix, and I have since replaced it with an all original one. I almost always stick with a few English sellers, with great results. It only costs about 8 bucks to have one shipped here from the UK in a "small packet", which is not much different than in the states shipping. Snipe bills are hard to find for a good price, but they do turn up once in a while reasonably if you don't have to have a matched set. Chose the piece of wood carefully, and they work really easily, especially if you cut the rabbets first on the tablesaw, but that's just a shortcut, and not absolutely necessary.

[Derek Cohen]

Read Matt Bickfords "mouldings in practice." He makes a very good case for needing only a few pairs of hollows and rounds, along with snipes bills and half rounds to make practically any profile you might ever need. A seriously great book.

Hi Paul

I've not read Matt's book, which I shall purchase. Which sizes did he recommend?

I have a half set Purchased a dozen years ago. It would be interesting to learn which sizes others feel a set can be reduced to, or where one should start if building one's own.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[paul cottingham]

Derek:

Of course, I can't find my copy of Mouldings in Practice right now, but I believe he recommends a pair of sixes and a pair of eights to start out. Or maybe eights and tens. I bought a harlequin set of 8 from Bode of fours to tens and can't imagine needing any more ( other than a new four....can't get the blade to seat right...) but I doubt I will do architectural moldings. Add a pair of snipes mouths and a pair of half rounds and bobs your uncle.

If I find my copy today, I will amend this.

[Tom M King]

If you are just coming up with a design for something to work on a piece of furniture, I can see where you can get by with just a few. If you are trying to match something exactly, which is what we do, I wouldn't want to be without any of them. I don't even bother to look at what number the hollow or round is. I just pick ones that fit right in the piece we are matching.

[Kees Heiden]

I knew I read it somewhere. Took some digging:

http://blog.lostartpress.com/2012/07/26/moulding-planes-where-to-start/

[Tom M King]

Nice looking set just listed on ebay for $475 Buy it Now. I'm not sure about the policy here about copying a link, but it shouldn't be hard to find. l would have bought it if I had known more than I did when I started buying mine individually. I don't understand why anyone would pay 200 bucks a piece for new ones, when there are so many useable old, cheap ones available.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I bought mine at auction about 15 years ago and I have a second set I inherited. The inherited set is Andrus of Trenton NJ and is a 45 degree carpenters set. My purchased set is Griffiths of Norwich UK and is 50 degrees and skewed as a cabinetmakers set should be. I was up at Canterbury Shaker Village over the weekend and was demonstrating making moldings. I took a 3/4" skewed rabbet, my snipe bill pair, and H&R pairs in 6, 8, 10, and 12. I also quickly cobbled together a 36" sticking board since my 8 footer would have hung off of the work table (unfortunately no bench) quite a bit. Other than that I only took a plane hammer, some oilstones and oil, and marking and layout tools. I have Matt's book and found I learned quite a few things I didn't know and found that my technique improved greatly after reading it and trying some of the tricks it teaches. I heartily recommend it for anyone who wants to stick their own moldings.

[David Weaver]

I heartily recommend it for anyone who wants to stick their own moldings.

Me too. It's an excellent book. Practical, clear explanations, and good use of visuals.

[Derek Cohen]

Interesting, Dave. My H&R half set are also by Griffiths. They were brought to Perth by a UK cabinetmaker in the 30s or 40s. I purchased them from his daughter about 10 or so years ago. Mine have a square mouth, but also bedded at 50 degrees.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

I think the try plane that I gushed over in another thread on here is a griffiths plane, too. Not that it has anything to do with moulding planes (my point only being that try plane is the nicest made plane I've ever seen in person), but they must've made a lot of planes.

[Matt Bickford]

One of my intentions in writing the book was to demonstrate the versatility of these tools be illustrating the dozens of profiles that can be created with a single pair. Adding a second pair of hollows and rounds will exponentially increase your options, and so will a third.

Depending on the scale of your work, you may settle upon 2, 4 or 9 pairs as your optimal set. Everybody works differently. 5 is currently my number.

With these five pairs I can make practically any profile I need, not, necessarily, any profile.

Personally, I'd work on acquiring several sets of hollows and rounds before trying to acquire snipes bills and side rounds. These latter planes are one (or two) trick ponies while a pair of hollows and rounds is a 40 trick pony.

One pair will not do it all, but it will do a lot. After you've used that pair for a while, it will do even more.

Thank you, all, for the comments on my book. They are noticed and greatly appreciated.

Matt

[Tom M King]

nice looking set at auction. a bit pricey, but I would be tempted, if I wasn't already set up.

HALF SET, SKEW HOLLOW & ROUND MOULDING PLANES - MOSTLY GRIFFITHS