Engraved Guns - Spoke with Attorney

[Clark Pace]

Hello,

So I spoke with a City Attorney about engraved guns. He had another shop doing his engraves. I wonder if they were licensed? I wonder if there is enough money to be made to go through the hassle of getting licensed, or if they were just taking the chance on not getting caught? Kind of scary to do that though.

[William Adams]

Won't afford you any protection if the BATF decides to make an issue of it if it's a U.S. city --- you need a gunsmith license:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html


Q: Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?

Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.

[27 CFR 478.11]

[Tim Bateson]

I deleted my own comment...

[Gary Hair]

So I spoke with a City Attorney about engraved guns.

Unless he is an attorney that you have hired to defend you when the ATF comes callin, I would consider his advice as valuable as what you paid for it... The link in the other post says it all and is exactly what the ATF will say. It makes no difference if you have it for 1 minute or a month, you need an FFL-01 to do engraving legally. Time you have the firearm only dictates whether you have to log it into your books or not - FFL books that is.

[Kev Williams]

heavy sigh...

[Clark Pace]

Anyone here actually gone through process of becoming a gun smith?

[David Somers]

Not me Clark. But I have a friend who has if you want me to ask him something.

Dave

[Gary Hair]

Anyone here actually gone through process of becoming a gun smith?

Yep, that's when I learned how most engravers are misinformed about what's legal and what's not about engraving firearms. Hint - it's a good bet that 99% of people engraving firearms are doing it illegally...

[Robert Walters]

I think local zoning would probably be the big thing.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-to/become-an-ffl.html

[Dave Sheldrake]

Federal Prison can do a great job of focussing the mind if you get it wrong that's for sure.

cheers

Dave

[Kev Williams]

Ok, here's a suggestion, do what I just did: Call your local ATF agent--

I just spoke to Nathan at the SLC ATF field office. Here's a shortened transcript:

==========================================
Me: I own an engraving shop, and I have some legal questions about engraving on guns.

Nathan: Ok, such as?

Me: Such as, is it okay for me to engrave guns for the local gun dealers, like registered firearms, while the dealer rep watches while I'm engraving?

Nathan: Yes. As long as it's just an occasional thing, and not your main course of business. If it is, then it's advisable to get a permit.

Me: Well, I engrave a few guns a week.

Nathan: That's fine. But if you were to be taking in 50 to 100 guns a week, something along those lines, then it would be a good idea to get licensed.

Me: Ok, then how about personal guns, dropped off for personalization purposes, such as guns for retirement gifts or graduation gifts?

Nathan: Same thing, as long as you're only engraving guns on an occasional basis, you're fine.

Me: So, it's perfectly legal for me to continue to engrave guns as I have been?

Nathan: Yes.
====================================

Google ATF [your city], and call them.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

We are an FFL 01...well worth the piece of mind.

[Robert Walters]

Nathan: Same thing, as long as you're only engraving guns on an occasional basis, you're fine.

Me: So, it's perfectly legal for me to continue to engrave guns as I have been?

Nathan: Yes.



My advice...
Get it in writing.


There was a thing going around regarding the legality of a .22lr flare gun insert:
http://kennesawcannon.com/subcaliberinsert.php

So, they wrote the ATF, and this is the letter they received back:
http://kennesawcannon.com/images1/batf.pdf

Note the date stamp and some sort of file numbers on ATF Stationary.

CYA =)

[Bert Kemp]

From the ATF Website

A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer. [27 CFR 478.11] ...(11) The term “dealer” means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,
(B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or
(C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

So I read it as if your not a dealer you can engrave without an FFL:D

[Tim Bateson]

Thank you Kev! I've had that same conversation. To-date, I have opted not to work with dealers as I don't like to be watched while I work. Now, they sell the guns & send the new gun owner my way.

For those who this rubs the wrong way. :cool:

In addition.... I am getting my CCW & applying for the FFL-01 this summer at the same time as the process is very much the same & I have to hit the sheriff's office for both. The ONLY reason for both is per customer agreement for a large contract I have for later this year & next. The contract pays for my CCW, FFL-01 as well as a gun safe. I'm also pushing for a Fiber laser too, but they haven't bit on that yet. :D

[Scott Shepherd]

I don't think it's particularly good advice to take advice from a ATF agent or a police officer. I've called the Department of Justice a number of times in relation to ADA compliant signs. I've gotten different answers from every person I've spoken to. So if we get popped on a violation for a building we did signs for, do you really think the defense of "James from your office told me it was okay" is going to get far? Without it in writing, all of this is hearsay from a court standpoint. When you get nailed and you end up in court, and you drag the agent into the court room, do you think he's going to say "Yes, I told him he didn't need a permit?". I seriously doubt that.

It's so little involved, why would you want to risk it?

[Chris DeGerolamo]

Thank you Kev! I've had that same conversation. To-date, I have opted not to work with dealers as I don't like to be watched while I work. Now, they sell the guns & send the new gun owner my way.

For those who this rubs the wrong way. :cool:

In addition.... I am getting my CCW & applying for the FFL-01 this summer at the same time as the process is very much the same & I have to hit the sheriff's office for both. The ONLY reason for both is per customer agreement for a large contract I have for later this year & next. The contract pays for my CCW, FFL-01 as well as a gun safe. I'm also pushing for a Fiber laser too, but they haven't bit on that yet. :D

Tim, I cannot stress enough that you need to stop engraving firearms. Please, don't let yourself lose so much money - I'll take that bullet for you. Just send these folks my way.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I'd probably look at written confirmation from a DA or ADA to be honest, enforcement officers (Police,ATF,DEA etc) do just that, enforce, DA's etc decide if you are going to court and what you will be charged with.

Over here they banned a class of air weapon some years ago, when I turned up at the local police station to turn in some on the day of the ban the duty inspector said "Why? they are legal I have some of my own" he was less than happy when I pointed out as of midnight that night each one was worth 5 years inside as they hadn't been told! He called the Home Office (Government dept responsible) who confirmed I was right and the weapons were due for destruction.

I have no idea what the US laws on guns are...that said, I'd want something in writing I could give to a judge if I got lifted.

cheers

Dave

[Gary Hair]

I'd probably look at written confirmation from a DA or ADA to be honest

I get your point but the DA or ADA are local/city/county/state and the ATF is federal, you'll be charged with a federal crime for weapons violations. I'd want something in writing from an agent from the ATF.

[Walt Langhans]

Federal Prison can do a great job of focussing the mind if you get it wrong that's for sure.

cheers

Dave

WOW, LMAO, seriously! Love your wit Dave!

[Curt Harms]

I get your point but the DA or ADA are local/city/county/state and the ATF is federal, you'll be charged with a federal crime for weapons violations. I'd want something in writing from an agent from the ATF.

Good advice but in a few cases state law can be more draconian than federal. A couple northeastern states come to mind.

[Mark Smith61]

I'm a former cop myself who worked the last half of my career in a prosecutors office. I did some legal research on this issue a while ago and I didn't see anything about being exempt if you only do it "occasionally." In the research I did, I determined the only way to legally engrave guns without a gunsmith license or other FFL (as best I can tell) is that whomever you are doing the engraving for remains present the entire time you have the firearm. That way they are considered to always be in constructive possession of the gun.

The main reason for the licensing requirements if you are going to take the guns into your possession are many fold. Obviously they want to make sure you are allowed yourself to possess firearms. And then they are going to want to make sure your shop meets all the required safety standards if you are going to have guns there. For example, you will have to get a gun safe that meets their standards, it has to be installed and bolted to the floor. They then have requirements for alarms and monitoring of the alarm and you have to keep logs of when guns come in and out and all kinds of other regulations.

[Gary Hair]

whomever you are doing the engraving for remains present the entire time you have the firearm
Wrong, wrong, wrong...


And then they are going to want to make sure your shop meets all the required safety standards if you are going to have guns there. For example, you will have to get a gun safe that meets their standards, it has to be installed and bolted to the floor.
I'd like you to show me in the regs where that is specified. I'm a betting man and I'll bet you can't...


They then have requirements for alarms and monitoring of the alarm

Same thing - you are not likely to find that.


and you have to keep logs of when guns come in and out and all kinds of other regulations.

Mostly correct - mostly... you only need to log firearms that are kept after you close for business, if you keep them only during business hours then there is no requirement to log them. The owner doesn't need to be present, that makes no difference at all.

[Bruce Clumpner]

For those considering applying for an FFL for your engraving business and you work out of the house. Be aware, one of the requirements is that your place of business needs to be accessible for inspection by any regulatory agency without notice.. This was one of the issues that caused me to re-think the application.. I didn't need folks arriving unannounced at any time of the day or night and wanting a tour of the house. Just a warning...

[Gary Hair]

For those considering applying for an FFL for your engraving business and you work out of the house. Be aware, one of the requirements is that your place of business needs to be accessible for inspection by any regulatory agency without notice.. This was one of the issues that caused me to re-think the application.. I didn't need folks arriving unannounced at any time of the day or night and wanting a tour of the house. Just a warning...

That was one of the things the agent told me when he came to my place for the interview. However, he followed it up with the fact that there are 6 agents in Oregon to cover thousands of FFL holders and that it was unlikely that they would ever visit me unless they had to trace a firearm. I asked him about me being a one-man shop and that I wouldn't necessarily let anyone know if I were on vacation or gone fishin' or whatever, and he said that since he would have to drive 90 miles from Portland that he would never come down without letting me know and ensuring I'm here. That's probably not how it would work for everyone, but I'm not too terribly worried about them showing up. There is a place on the application for you to list your business days/hours - If you are really concerned about it you could put "Wednesday" for the day and 10:30am - 11:00am for the hours. I don't think they could come knockin' outside those hours... just a thought.

[Mark Smith61]

I have a friend who is a law enforcement officer and recently obtained an FFL to sell firearms. He is going the business from his house. He is the one that told me about the requirement for the safe and that it had to be bolted to the floor and about the monitored alarm system. According to him those were all ATF requirements.

So are you saying the ATF doesn't regulate at all how people who hold FFL's store firearms? I was in fact making the assumption that somebody who had a Gunsmith License would be required to meet the same requirements as a regular FFL holder, so I don't know if that was true or not.

[Mark Smith61]

Also I should have added that I'm in California so I included California law in my research. It's actually California law that is the most restrictive as far as can I have somebody else's gun in my possession without them being present.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

I can tell you as a current FFL holder in NC, there is no regulation/requirement for firearm storage or security [in this state] other than to have locks on the doors. I specifically recall this conversation with my then BATFE agent.

[Gary Hair]

So are you saying the ATF doesn't regulate at all how people who hold FFL's store firearms?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

I was in fact making the assumption that somebody who had a Gunsmith License would be required to meet the same requirements as a regular FFL holder, so I don't know if that was true or not.
There are several types of FFL, 01 is gunsmith as well as a dealer, there is no "Gunsmith License" or "regular FFL holder" - either you have an FFL or you don't. It is a bit ridiculous that as an engraver I need to have an FFL and I'm considered a gunsmith by the ATF, but that's what the rules are so I'm playin by their rules.

Here is a list of the different types of FFL


Type
Usage


Type 1
Title 1 dealer or gunsmith other than destructive devices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device). Can also deal in Title II NFA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act) firearms with class 3 tax stamp.


Type 2
Title 1 dealer doing business as a pawnbroker.


Type 3
Licensed collector of Curio & Relic (C&R) firearms.


Type 6
Licensed manufacturer of ammunition and reloading components other than ammunition for destructive devices and armor piercing ammunition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-piercing_shot_and_shell).


Type 7
Title 1 manufacturer of firearms and ammunition, who may also act as dealer; may not manufacture or deal in destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, or armor piercing ammunition. Can also manufacture & deal in Title II NFA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act) firearms with class 2 tax stamp.


Type 8
Importer of Title 1 firearms and ammunition. Can also import Title II NFA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act) firearms with class 1 tax stamp.


Type 9
Dealer in firearms, including destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, and armor piercing ammunition. Requires payment as an SOT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Occupational_Taxpayers) Class 1 (can act as an NFA Dealer). To deal/broker any DD with an explosives content (e.g. flash-bangs) requires an additional Federal Explosives License[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License#cite_note-1) as a Dealer of High Explosives.


Type 10
Manufacturer of firearms, ammunition and ammunition components, manufacturer of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, and armor piercing ammunition; may also deal in all of the aforementioned items. Requires payment as an SOT Class 2 (can act as an NFA Dealer). To manufacture any DD with an explosives content (e.g. flash-bangs) requires an additional FEL[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License#cite_note-2) as a Type 20 Manufacturer of High Explosives.


Type 11
Importer of firearms, ammunition, destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices, and armor piercing ammunition; may also deal in all the aforementioned items. Requires payment as an SOT Class 1. To import any DD with an explosives content (e.g. flash-bangs), requires an additional FEL[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License#cite_note-3) as an Importer of High Explosives.

[Gary Hair]

Also I should have added that I'm in California so I included California law in my research.
California law has nothing to do with your necessity to have and FFL, that's federal law. States can have more restrictive laws than the feds but not less. I know, marijuana is still a federal crime but not so in a few states - that is one of very few exceptions and not likely to be a precedent for changing FFL laws.


It's actually California law that is the most restrictive as far as can I have somebody else's gun in my possession without them being present.
Not when you are talking about federal regulations - but go ahead and tell that to the AFT if they ever come knocking...

[Mark Smith61]

Gary Hair ATF would come knocking for what? And you just said the states can be more restrictive but when I told you it's California law that restricts taking possession of the firearm you make the comment about ATF? What am I missing here? If you are properly licensed FFL or Gunsmith then you can take possession of guns and engrave them. In California, if you don't have an FFL, you can't (in most cases) take guns from others without going through somebody who is an FFL.

[Kev Williams]

Bump!!

--It's ironic that this thread ended with "ATF would come knocking for what?"

I can now answer that question: For Any Reason They Want.

Yesterday afternoon I answered the door like I do a dozen times day, only this time I was greeted by an AFT agent and his badge. Time to have a chat he says.

Now, reading backwards you'll find that this topic can get controversial. Also note my post on the first page, #11, where I brought up my conversation with Nathan at our local ATF office. And as it says, and as I told (I'll call him) Agent J, Nathan gave me his blessing to engrave guns as long as it stays on 'an occasional basis' and no one leaves any logged weapons here. There's a reason for that, which I'll get to shortly. But Agent J says different. He explains that I CANNOT engrave receivers without a gunsmithing license, period. BUT (remember these details, pop quiz at the end ;) ) - it's perfectly fine for me to engrave barrels or slides. Because, he says, the ATF considers receivers- AR lowers, Remington 700's, etc- to be "the weapon", because they handle the ammo. Fancy that, since the last place to get the ammo is the barrel, which you can fire a bullet from with nothing more than a phillips screwdriver, yet it's nearly impossible to fire a bullet from a receiver. All they are is chunks of metal until they're attached to other parts. But I digress...

Now since I'm a stickler for details, and because frankly, if 2 people working for the same govt agency in the same building give me totally different reads on the rules which leads me to believe neither of them know what they're talking about-- I'm not afraid to search out actual laws, which I did.

Now, the first thing you get if you google 'do I have to be licensed if I engrave guns', is:

Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11) and (21); 27 CFR 478.11]

Now, notice the laws references- Title 18 United States Code sections 921(a) 11 and 21... Section 921 explains the defintions of terms used when dealing with firearms, explosives, etc... Once you get past chapter 9, it starts regarding what we're talking about. We're interested in chapter 11:

(10) The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.
(11) The term “dealer” means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or (C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.
(12) The term “pawnbroker” means any person whose business or occupation includes the taking or receiving, by way of pledge or pawn, of any firearm as security for the payment or repayment of money.
(13) The term “collector” means any person who acquires, holds, or disposes of firearms as curios or relics, as the Attorney General shall by regulation define, and the term “licensed collector” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

"engravers" are considered "repairers", this is our 'category'. NOW- notice the first word in the answer to the 'do engravers need a license'-- big fat YES. But-- pay special attention to "within the definition of a dealer", because this is important, and addressed in chapter 21! And subchapter (D) applies to US, which I'll highlight, AND, I'll REALLY highlight the really important part:"

(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;
(E) as applied to an importer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms imported; and
(F) as applied to an importer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition imported.

Get that? The term of "dealer" SHALL NOT APPLY to those who "occasionally" repair (read: ENGRAVE!)... Now, do you suppose THIS is why Nathan gave me his approval? Fact is, gun engraving accounts for probably 3% of my income. That's pretty occasional...

So why does Agent J insist I must be licensed? Hey, I haven't a clue.

But from what found in my research, I DO know this much: Anything an ATF agent tells you is based SOLEY on HIS/HER opinion of the law. NOT the LAW, just their opinion of it! Know why I know that? I actually read the laws! And it seems that BOTH Nathan AND Agent J are more than likely wrong. Know who's been right in all this discussion?

Several actually, but it appears to me Gary has been right on the money. Guess he has a good teacher, seems his ATF agent knows his stuff. He must be one of the few agents who actually read this Department of Justice/ATF ruling: https://www.atf.gov/file/55461/download

--It's a PDF copy of the actual ruling. Less than 3 pages and it explains who does and doesn't need certain licenses. It also explains exactly what the DOJ considers a firearm:

A "firearm" is defined by 18 USC 921(a)(3) to include any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and the frame or receiver of any such weapon. -- notice there's no distinction between different parts of the 'firearm', and that 'frame' and 'receiver' is INCLUDED, not singled out. Which I take to mean 'firearm' to include the whole gun and all parts thereof. I'm pretty sure most judges would too...

Finally, the last paragraph in the heading and of the ruling reads:

Held further, any person who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or engraving firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, under the gun control act.
--pretty cut & dried there...

Pop quiz!
According to the ruling:
-- do I need a license to engrave a gun?
-- what parts of a gun are not a gun?
-- does that mean barrels and slides are okay to engrave without a license?
-- does this ruling supersede the 'occasional' reference?
-- Shouldn't ATF agents know all this??

Answers: yes, zero, NO, pretty sure and hell yes...
And FWIW, I think a lot of these laws are nonsense. But I also think the minute a judge reads this ruling, it's a done deal regardless of what I think.

Since I'm not about to put up with nonsense of getting licensed and all that that will entail, seems I'm about to have a few unhappy customers...

Let the controversy begin anew! ( or not! :D )

[Dave Sheldrake]

I engrave sealing rings for nuclear projects, all the time they are with me I have a "client" who stands around saying nothing and doing nothing with them in his line of sight until they are finished. They literally look like small piston rings and are totally worthless outside of the things they go inside of.

Sometimes even random bits of metal that are harmless are highly restricted :)

[Jacob John]

Bump!!

--It's ironic that this thread ended with "ATF would come knocking for what?"

I can now answer that question: For Any Reason They Want.

Yesterday afternoon I answered the door like I do a dozen times day, only this time I was greeted by an AFT agent and his badge. Time to have a chat he says.

Now, reading backwards you'll find that this topic can get controversial. Also note my post on the first page, #11, where I brought up my conversation with Nathan at our local ATF office. And as it says, and as I told (I'll call him) Agent J, Nathan gave me his blessing to engrave guns as long as it stays on 'an occasional basis' and no one leaves any logged weapons here. There's a reason for that, which I'll get to shortly. But Agent J says different. He explains that I CANNOT engrave receivers without a gunsmithing license, period. BUT (remember these details, pop quiz at the end ;) ) - it's perfectly fine for me to engrave barrels or slides. Because, he says, the ATF considers receivers- AR lowers, Remington 700's, etc- to be "the weapon", because they handle the ammo. Fancy that, since the last place to get the ammo is the barrel, which you can fire a bullet from with nothing more than a phillips screwdriver, yet it's nearly impossible to fire a bullet from a receiver. All they are is chunks of metal until they're attached to other parts. But I digress...

Now since I'm a stickler for details, and because frankly, if 2 people working for the same govt agency in the same building give me totally different reads on the rules which leads me to believe neither of them know what they're talking about-- I'm not afraid to search out actual laws, which I did.

Now, the first thing you get if you google 'do I have to be licensed if I engrave guns', is:

Now, notice the laws references- Title 18 United States Code sections 921(a) 11 and 21... Section 921 explains the defintions of terms used when dealing with firearms, explosives, etc... Once you get past chapter 9, it starts regarding what we're talking about. We're interested in chapter 11:

"engravers" are considered "repairers", this is our 'category'. NOW- notice the first word in the answer to the 'do engravers need a license'-- big fat YES. But-- pay special attention to "within the definition of a dealer", because this is important, and addressed in chapter 21! And subchapter (D) applies to US, which I'll highlight, AND, I'll REALLY highlight the really important part:"

Get that? The term of "dealer" SHALL NOT APPLY to those who "occasionally" repair (read: ENGRAVE!)... Now, do you suppose THIS is why Nathan gave me his approval? Fact is, gun engraving accounts for probably 3% of my income. That's pretty occasional...

So why does Agent J insist I must be licensed? Hey, I haven't a clue.

But from what found in my research, I DO know this much: Anything an ATF agent tells you is based SOLEY on HIS/HER opinion of the law. NOT the LAW, just their opinion of it! Know why I know that? I actually read the laws! And it seems that BOTH Nathan AND Agent J are more than likely wrong. Know who's been right in all this discussion?

Several actually, but it appears to me Gary has been right on the money. Guess he has a good teacher, seems his ATF agent knows his stuff. He must be one of the few agents who actually read this Department of Justice/ATF ruling: https://www.atf.gov/file/55461/download

--It's a PDF copy of the actual ruling. Less than 3 pages and it explains who does and doesn't need certain licenses. It also explains exactly what the DOJ considers a firearm:
-- notice there's no distinction between different parts of the 'firearm', and that 'frame' and 'receiver' is INCLUDED, not singled out. Which I take to mean 'firearm' to include the whole gun and all parts thereof. I'm pretty sure most judges would too...

Finally, the last paragraph in the heading and of the ruling reads:

--pretty cut & dried there...

Pop quiz!
According to the ruling:
-- do I need a license to engrave a gun?
-- what parts of a gun are not a gun?
-- does that mean barrels and slides are okay to engrave without a license?
-- does this ruling supersede the 'occasional' reference?
-- Shouldn't ATF agents know all this??

Answers: yes, zero, NO, pretty sure and hell yes...
And FWIW, I think a lot of these laws are nonsense. But I also think the minute a judge reads this ruling, it's a done deal regardless of what I think.

Since I'm not about to put up with nonsense of getting licensed and all that that will entail, seems I'm about to have a few unhappy customers...

Let the controversy begin anew! ( or not! :D )


Last two posts of this thread...;)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?245279-My-15th-machine-came-today!/page4

[Bill George]

I guess I have always understood that engraving for others requires a FFL and also because receivers or any part with the serial number is considered a weapon and it has to be recorded in your "bound book" and then when it leaves be returned to its owner with proper paperwork and recording in your bound book.

[Scott Shepherd]

Kev, we should talk offline.

We were told by the ATF, same as you, that if it wasn't a "significant" part of our business, it would probably be okay, but they couldn't legally say it was okay. We applied for a FFL anyway, the interview came and we were read the riot act, told to stop engraving immediately. VERY VERY stupid points made. We were told that engraving on a gun, under the law, was considering "Manufacturing" and it we could not do it without a FFL and the top tier one at that, which classified you as a Manufacturer. He said that if you are a Manufacturer, then it is assumed that you have all the tools/machines to make your own weapons from scratch. That means if you are a Manufacturer, then you are assumed to have the equipment to put serial numbers, etc, on your products. If you didn't, then you had to submit a variance request to have the items engraved somewhere else. That had to be done for each weapon and took 2-3 weeks to submit and get approved. Stick with me now, this is where it gets interesting.

I said "Well, YOU gave them the Stamp (Form 1)", you've already done the background check. If you've given then the Stamp, then how do you think they were going to get the gun engraved? Do you think every person that submits a Form 1 has an engraving machine? Explain to me, how you envision them getting it engraved. You just said that we can't do it, and you said that YOU gave them the approval, and part of that approval process is for it to be engraved. Tell me who's supposed to be engraving it and how.

He backtracked on what he said and told that technically they weren't a manufacturer, but they were considered a manufacturer since they had the Form 1 approved. Huh????

At that time, we were not holding anyone's weapons. People made appointments and they came, sat here while we engraved it, and then left. YOU NEED NOTHING TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS. PERIOD. However, he told us we needed to stop immediately. We repeatedly explained it to him and he repeatedly didn't hear a word we said.

He called back 2 days later and said he talked to his boss and we were good to go, didn't need a FFL to do what we were doing. You are kidding me, right? Read the riot act on one day, two days later, told "my bad, it's all good"????

We applied for the FFL and got it, so now we can do business and not worry about the hassle. We had a surprise visit from the ATF about 2 weeks ago. Showed up and stayed for 3-4 hours. How? I don't know. We had zero weapons on site and our log books were spot on.

We work with a number of other FFL holders and hear their stories too. We all share the same stories, getting different answers, depending on who you ask. One auditor takes 30 minutes, one takes 4 hours. Just depends on who you get and who you ask.

[Tim Bateson]

Love these stories. Some think the government "should" know what they are doing. lol Have you tried reading their regs without a lawyer, good luck. I have a Dealers FFL to engrave Trust info & a Manufacturer FFL to engrave & resell guns.

More government confusion. ATF considers engraving and reselling guns to be a Manufacturer. The State Dept will automatically then charge you something like $2k/yr as a Manufacturer/Importer. However, a simple form will wave this because engraving is NOT considered Manufacturing by the State Dept.

So one Department says you are a Manufacturer & the other says you are not. lol The important take away is the one that costs the most does not.

[Gary Hair]

I guess I have always understood that engraving for others requires a FFL and also because receivers or any part with the serial number is considered a weapon and it has to be recorded in your "bound book" and then when it leaves be returned to its owner with proper paperwork and recording in your bound book.

The only time you need to log it into your bound book is if you keep it overnight or after business hours. In the 3 years I've had my FFL, I have 3 entries in my book and they are all mine! I do firearm engraving on Tuesday and Thursday, in by 9am, out by 2pm - no exceptions! The other caveat is that whoever drops it off must be the one who picks it up, otherwise it's a transfer and you have to run a background check on the person picking it up.
The rules for me are extremely simple and easy to follow, and the paperwork is pretty much nonexistent because of the guidelines I put in place for my customers. I pay my fee every 2 years and if the ATF ever show up to inspect my business, it will likely be the fastest inspection they have ever done!

[Dave Sheldrake]

Our laws for engraving are a lot easier :)

If the owner stays within line of sight of the weapon thereby no relinquishing personal posession, no licensing

Other than that, Sec 1, Sec2,Sec5 or Sec7 licensing is required

Anything other than engraving RFD required

Sec 1 = firearm
Sec 2 = shotgun
Sec 5 = Prohibited weapon (rocket launchers etc)
Sec 7 = antique firearm of special interest

[Brian Leavitt]

Interesting read, this thread. We sometimes engrave guns for Police officers and Federal officers from various agencies, including ATF agents. We definitely do not have an FFL and no one has ever asked if we do. We only engrave a gun if the customer brings it in and waits here for it to be done. Never even occurred to me that it could be an issue.

[Scott Shepherd]

Interesting read, this thread. We sometimes engrave guns for Police officers and Federal officers from various agencies, including ATF agents. We definitely do not have an FFL and no one has ever asked if we do. We only engrave a gun if the customer brings it in and waits here for it to be done. Never even occurred to me that it could be an issue.

And it should be. That's the same thing we do, but we went the extra step and got the FFL.

The agent told us that engraving made you a manufacturer. Then when I asked him how they expected Form 1 holders to get their engraving done, since part of the Form 1 states that they MUST have it engraved. I said "According to your logic, then everyone you give the stamp to needs to own their own engraving machine". He said "Well.....uhhh.....we consider them manufacturers but technically they aren't manufacturers". I said "So, YOUR requirement is that it is engraved. YOU ran the background check, and YOU approved them. YOU gave them the stamp for something and you know that they can't engrave it. How do you expect them to comply with it if they can't bring it to me and have it engraved? He couldn't answer that. Then he told me that since we engraved the Trust info to comply with what they gave them the Stamp for, then we were a manufacturer.

Then, when he called back 2 days later, he told me we weren't a manufacturer and putting the Trust info on there didn't fall under manufacturing, it fell under decorative, and we didn't need it.

We deal with all types of Law Enforcement people as well. Local, State, Federal. Almost all of those guys tell the same types of stories about the ATF. They say that it all depends on who you talk to on which day, because the answers constantly change. That's not reassuring to hear from other LEO's.

[Bruce Clumpner]

I went through the preliminary process of applying for an FFL many years ago. What kept me from completing the process is that I work from home, and part of the record keeping requirements meant that the ATF would have access to my place of business (my house) any time of the day or night to inspect my records. Not that I'm anti-government or anything, but I just didn't want someone poking in whenever they felt like it. Had I had a retail location, it would have been different.

[Kev Williams]

I'd like to address some responses but time is short right now, BUT, in speaking with one of my customers, and doing a little more research on what he told me, this came up (touching on what Steve mentioned)

A gunsmithing licensed does NOT allow you to mark frames or receivers of firearms with S/N, caliber or other pertinent info, that are intended to be sold. ONLY manufacturers can mark such weapons, AND this marking must be done on their own premises. Exception: Licensed mfr's CAN outsource work otherwise not allowed by getting permission and a variance issued by the ATF.

And speaking of premises, THAT is what is actually licensed by the ATF, not "you". Therefore any actual manufacturing, which includes mandatory ID engravings or stampings, cannot be done off-site, only 'modifications' can... 'Decorative' engraving or Cerakoting etc. can be farmed out to anyone with a gunsmithing license.

A gunsmithing license DOES allow you to mark frames etc of PERSONAL firearms, intended to be used by the owner/maker NOT intended to be sold.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-7/download << link to some more reading, :)
below is a excerpt:

(1) John Doe has a personal firearm and takes it to a gunsmith, a licensed dealer, for modification.
The work performed in this instance is the legitimate work of a gunsmith and may be performed pursuant
to the gunsmith’s dealer’s license. The gunsmith need not be licensed as a manufacturer,
or hold a special tax stamp in the case of an NFA firearm, to perform the work.

(2) Company A is a licensed manufacturer, but contracts with other licensees to perform
finishing work on NFA firearms it manufactures. One such contractor is a gunsmith, a licensed
dealer. After receiving the finished firearms, Company A offers the firearms for sale. In this
instance, the gunsmith, as well as Company A, is engaged in business as an NFA firearms
manufacturer and needs a manufacturer’s license and special tax stamp to do so.

Finally, I was also told by my customer he knows Agent J all too well (leave it at that), and that Nathan still works there, gave me his direct phone number to contact him for straight answers and to get in writing what I can and can't do to without a license...

[Scott Shepherd]

Finally, I was also told by my customer he knows Agent J all too well (leave it at that), and that Nathan still works there, gave me his direct phone number to contact him for straight answers and to get in writing what I can and can't do to without a license...

Sounds familiar.

[Tim Bateson]

...A gunsmithing licensed does NOT allow you to mark frames or receivers of firearms with S/N, caliber or other pertinent info, that are intended to be sold. ONLY manufacturers can mark such weapons, AND this marking must be done on their own premises. Exception: Licensed mfr's CAN outsource work otherwise not allowed by getting permission and a variance issued by the ATF...

Not sure about this one. Not saying you are wrong either. My 01 FFL is what I applied for and at my interview the ATF agent was good with that for engraving Trust info into AR Receivers. He classified that work as gunsmithing. When I mentioned to him I also planned to engrave & resell firearms, he explained I needed the the 07 FFL for that work, which he then changed the paperwork & approved.

Note: An 07 is inclusive of an 01... and for some odd reason cheaper than an 01.

I do nothing with customers there, don't even let them into the shop any more. I schedule all of my work for 1-7 days from drop off date. Depending how busy I am.

[Bill George]

The only time you need to log it into your bound book is if you keep it overnight or after business hours. In the 3 years I've had my FFL, I have 3 entries in my book and they are all mine! I do firearm engraving on Tuesday and Thursday, in by 9am, out by 2pm - no exceptions! The other caveat is that whoever drops it off must be the one who picks it up, otherwise it's a transfer and you have to run a background check on the person picking it up.
The rules for me are extremely simple and easy to follow, and the paperwork is pretty much nonexistent because of the guidelines I put in place for my customers. I pay my fee every 2 years and if the ATF ever show up to inspect my business, it will likely be the fastest inspection they have ever done!

So if its not entered in the "Book" how would the Inspector know if its been overnight, two hours or two weeks? I had an FFL a few years ago and turned it back in as I did not need.

[Gary Hair]

So if its not entered in the "Book" how would the Inspector know if its been overnight, two hours or two weeks? I had an FFL a few years ago and turned it back in as I did not need.

If the agent was unsure about how long you had a firearm in your shop, they could just wait until you closed and you better have anything that remains there properly logged. Whether it's been there 1 minute past closing time or 10 years, is immaterial and it needs to be entered.

[John Kleiber]

Post ended up in the wrong place....

[John Kleiber]

[/COLOR]Wrong, wrong, wrong...


I'd like you to show me in the regs where that is specified. I'm a betting man and I'll bet you can't...



Same thing - you are not likely to find that.



Mostly correct - mostly... you only need to log firearms that are kept after you close for business, if you keep them only during business hours then there is no requirement to log them. The owner doesn't need to be present, that makes no difference at all.

Gary,

Mark Smith61 may be referring in part to CA Gun Laws and Administrative guidelines mandated by the California Justice Department which are not reflective of the majority of States.

-John

[Scott Shepherd]

Went to a gun show today and there was a booth for the ATF with 3 agents in it. I had a conversation with the senior agent and he said it's very simple. If you take possession of it, then you need an FFL. If you do not take possession (i.e. the customer stays and waits for it to be completed), then you do not need an FFL. He said there is nothing more to it. Take possession and you need the FFL, period, end of story, according to him. We spoke for about 15 minutes, and he was very knowledgeable about engraving Trust information and all that was required. I asked him about the phase "significant part of your business" and he said "You either take possession or you don't, it's that simple".

Take that for what it's worth (free information, 3rd hand, on the internet ;) ).

[Doug Fisher]

Scott - When you had your conversation did you differentiate between engraving fully assembled guns vs. just specific parts of a gun?. Thanks.

[Scott Shepherd]

Scott - When you had your conversation did you differentiate between engraving fully assembled guns vs. just specific parts of a gun?. Thanks.

Yes, and their stance is that what classifies as a weapon is clearly defined. If you take possession of what is considered the weapon, then you need a FFL. Anything else and they couldn't care less.

[Gary Hair]

Scott - When you had your conversation did you differentiate between engraving fully assembled guns vs. just specific parts of a gun?. Thanks.

As long as you don't have the serial numbered part in your possession the BATF couldn't care less about it. That's the only part that is regulated and considered the "firearm"

[Tim Bateson]

As long as you don't have the serial numbered part in your possession the BATF couldn't care less about it. That's the only part that is regulated and considered the "firearm"

One gotcha on that one... An 80% lower. For those who don't do this daily, an 80% lower can be mostly a block of aluminum shaped with only minimum drilling completed. Even though it's not spelled out in the code, my ATF agent told me outright it is still considered a weapon and thus needs to be tracked. If no serial number, I (as an FFL holder) have to insure it has one before leaving my shop. So if you have no FFL, an 80% lower even without a serial number is not allowed. Your mileage with another ATF agent may very.

[Bill George]

I used to hang out on AR15 dot COM those guys deal with the ATF all the time. Billet aliminum blocks pre-machined to 80 and even 90% are not considered weapons. They have posted official letters online received from BATF in DC.

[John Lifer]

The point is, with all gun laws, it all depends on what day of the week it is, and what agent you are talking with.....

[Tim Bateson]

I used to hang out on AR15 dot COM those guys deal with the ATF all the time. Billet aluminum blocks pre-machined to 80 and even 90% are not considered weapons. They have posted official letters online received from BATF in DC.

Although I agree with you... I'm not going to argue with the ATF agent that inspects my books either.

[Bill George]

Although I agree with you... I'm not going to argue with the ATF agent that inspects my books either.

Write a letter to BATF in DC or wherever and get it in writing. Your agent seems to be just winging it.

While a little reading on AR15 dot com says this, the Bureau does not recognize 80 or 90% billet receivers as such, but without a serial number they are not considered a receiver. Certain venders will furnish a copy of letter from the BATF stating their particular item is not a receiver and legal to ship and sell. In your case I would get something in writing before proceeding.

[Gary Hair]

One gotcha on that one... An 80% lower. For those who don't do this daily, an 80% lower can be mostly a block of aluminum shaped with only minimum drilling completed. Even though it's not spelled out in the code, my ATF agent told me outright it is still considered a weapon and thus needs to be tracked. If no serial number, I (as an FFL holder) have to insure it has one before leaving my shop. So if you have no FFL, an 80% lower even without a serial number is not allowed. Your mileage with another ATF agent may very.

Technically, unless you are selling or transferring it, a home-built firearm doesn't need to have a serial number.

Here is a link to a google search that has plenty of info about this topic.

https://www.google.com/search?q=does+a+home+made+firearm+need+a+serial+nu mber%3F&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS672US672&oq=does+a+home+made+firearm+need+a+serial+number%3 F&aqs=chrome..69i57.7436j0j7&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Here is one link with actualy correspondence from a BATF agent - I give this a lot of credibility:
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2017/02/21/am-i-required-to-apply-a-serial-number-to-a-homemade-firearm/

[Tim Bateson]

I don't see it as any big deal. I do a lot of 80%-90% receivers, and none of my customers have had any problem with adding a serial number. I have never forced it, I just suggest they do for purposes such as theft. Serial numbers don't have to be complicated. For example one guy used his initials as manufacture and last initial + 1 for serial number (FBT T1). Most of these come in for the SAFE/FIRE/HELL + Caliber type engravings, I then throw in Manufacturer/Serial Number info at no additional cost. I think for most, it's a matter of pride to have their name engraved on it as Manufacturer.

[Kev Williams]

Steve-- did they show you any printed laws and/or rulings to back up their stance? I have printed up every law and AFT ruling pertaining to manufacturing, selling, collecting, repairing, engraving and coating firearms, and while I'll have to read thru it all again to be certain, I can't remember a single instance in any of this paperwork where "who has possession" is brought up. I also have a coalition of gun owners and gun shop owners, all of which are very knowledgeable about the laws, have unanimously agreed the C&D order I was issued is a crock. One of these gentleman, a friend who's worked on barrels and receivers for over 30 years, had an ATF problem with one of our local agents (fancy that) about a year ago, and after speaking with several different agents around the country and getting different answers from all of them, eventually got to speak with one of the directors of the ATF. Not sure who exactly, but this director, according to my friend, flatly called a lot of the info he was given "crap". In short, anything any ATF agent tells you is based solely on his/her interpretation of the laws. Which is exactly why I have a C&D from one local agent and the blessing to engrave anything but serial numbers on 'company' mfr'd guns from another agent, who work in the same building.

In my spare time (lol) I'm attempting to draft a simple letter, with help from my local gun friends. It's going to be a simple request for 'the buck stops here' clarification of the law, as pertains to licensing requirements; who needs one, who doesn't, and why. This letter and associated paperwork will be signed by dozens of local gun and gun shop owners, and will be sent to Acting ATF director Thomas E. Brandon, and Acting ATF Deputy Director Ronald B. Turk, in hopes one or both of them will respond.

[Bill George]

You might also contact the NRA for help on this matter.

[John Lifer]

Gun possession is ALWAYS at the root of the issue. Go back and read 4473 form. Most questions are trying to determine can you legally possess, (not necessarily just own) a firearm. It would be nice to get complete determination, but it is just a single director. Heard about the AR 15 pistol brace? Batfe has gone back and forth on that at least 4 times.

[Marvin Hasenak]

The people that do real engraving with gravers will tell you that you need a FFL to engrave guns. There is also no provision for "occasional" engraving. They will also tell you that your are basically altering the appearance of the weapon. That falls under the gunsmith laws, if you have no FFL, you are subjecting yourself to Federal charges.

A phone call answer will not hold up in court, get it in writing on the BATF stationary through the mail. Not an email or anything that is easy to electronically alter. Finally, opinions that are of individual agents are just their opinions, not necessarily that of the BARF agency.

I been there, seen that, and the Tshirts to prove it with the IRS. If it isn't in writing on their letterhead, it is worthless opinion.

[Jerome Stanek]

If you are engraving a 80 - 90% receiver and engrave a serial number do you need a license. Like when I was installing a handicap sign and a cop wanted to right me a ticket because I was backed into the spot. I ended up telling him it is not a handicap spot till I hang the sign and paint the pavement.

[Chris Edens]

Yes you will. If you're gonna do firearms just get the FFL.



If you are engraving a 80 - 90% receiver and engrave a serial number do you need a license. Like when I was installing a handicap sign and a cop wanted to right me a ticket because I was backed into the spot. I ended up telling him it is not a handicap spot till I hang the sign and paint the pavement.

[Kev Williams]

There's more to it than "just". Which is why I won't...

[Matt McCoy]

FFL is less expensive than a lawyer.

[Scott Shepherd]

This is just my opinion, which may or may not be correct, the second you engrave Trust info on the weapon, you are in violation of the law without the FFL. In order for someone to get the Form 1, and put it into a Trust, the Trust owns the weapon. That weapon cannot be in the possession of anyone that isn't listed on the Trust, unless it's done by transferring the weapon into someone else's possession, legally, which is done by having the FFL and logging the weapon in and out.

For example, if you have a Trust, and you are the sole person listed on the Trust, you cannot loan that gun to your friend or family member to take to the range. Unless they are listed on the Trust, they cannot take possession of it, legally.

Back to engraving, if you engrave the Trust information, and you aren't listed on the Trust, then you are in violation of the law. It's actually before you engrave it, because the Form 1 has been issued and the owner has the stamp. To me, when they get that, then it's a hot potato that has to be managed in a controlled way in order to follow the law.

That's part of my opinion on it. I'd count up the hours you are spending on trying NOT to have it, and I'd realize it's going to cost you way more to fight it than to just get the FFL. I don't understand the resistance to getting the FFL.

[Gary Hair]

unless it's done by transferring the weapon into someone else's possession, legally, which is done by having the FFL and logging the weapon in and out.

The only time you need to log in/out is if the firearm stays in your possession after business hours, otherwise you don't have to make any entries at all.

[Scott Shepherd]

The only time you need to log in/out is if the firearm stays in your possession after business hours, otherwise you don't have to make any entries at all.

I would respectfully disagree with that. The law, with the log book, isn't put there to track activity after business hours, it's there to track the steps of a controlled weapon. It it moves from place to place, that movement must be tracked and accounted for.

If the rightful owner were to log it out and transfer it into your possession and they cross reference logs, you are going to be in trouble.

We were audited about a month ago and they were pretty specific on that to us, citing the specific codes and section in the regulations about it.

[Kev Williams]

My resistance to getting an FFL is purely on principle, based on my opinion that not even the ATF knows how to interpret its own laws. To wit, and to address Marvin above who I guess thinks I'm not a real engraver, YES there IS a provision for "occasional" dealing and gunsmithing.

Here's my C&D in all it's glory...
366897
Here's the closeup of the pertinent info...
366898
And here's the basic AFT online answer as to 'do you need a license'...
366899
Now note VERY CLOSELY that I've highlighted "as a business". Also note the law cited, Title 18 USC section 921 chapters 11 and 21.

So YES, if I'm IN THE BUSINESS of engraving guns, I need a license. No dispute.

Ok then, so what if, by definition of their own law, I'm NOT in the business of engraving guns? What's the obvious conclusion? How about: I DON'T need a license. And guess what, right there at the tail end of 18 USC 19 chapters 11 and 21, are the words of law conveniently missing from my C&D and of the minds of most agents, save for Nathan that I spoke to 3 years ago (see page 1 post 11 of this thread of the exact day I called and put down the jist of our conversation)--these missing words define me perfectly as NOT being in the gun engraving business. Here is the law, pertinent parts highlighted, and my additional comments in RED

(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;
Yup, funny how this part is always left out... Pretty darn clear to me: If a person only OCCASIONALLY repairs firearms, and one who repairs firearms is by definition is a GUNSMITH, which by definition includes ENGRAVER-- then THE TERM "ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS" shall not apply. And since this law makes no mention that "occasional" gunsmithing is forbidden, then IF I need a license IF I'm defined as a gunsmith, then the opposite must be true: If I'm NOT by definition above, "a gunsmith", then I shouldn't need a license.

This is exactly how ATF agent Nathan explained this to me. And for what it's worth, the ruling passed down by the acting ATF director in 2009 that is the basis for all this "if you engrave guns you need a license period" mentality, does NOT change or supercede this law.

Maybe I'm being a blockhead, but to me and many others, the law is clear-- and being ignored. Ironically, I don't miss engraving guns at all. If I'm forced to abide by the law, I want to abide by the ACTUAL law. THAT'S my "resistance". If they want to ban all engraving without a license, then CHANGE the law to say so...

[Gary Hair]

If the rightful owner were to log it out and transfer it into your possession and they cross reference logs, you are going to be in trouble.

I'm talking about private party, since you said "log it out" I'm assuming you are talking about another FFL, otherwise, who is going to "log it out"?

[Gary Hair]

for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby

Which of these are you doing Kev? You highlighted "occasional" but left out the key part...

[Scott Shepherd]

Kev, I think the point I'd stress is that no where does it say that you can or cannot engrave with or without a FFL. The point made to me was "are you taking possession of the firearm?". If the answer is yes, then you need the FFL. If the answer is No, then you don't. Regardless if you were fixing the sights, engraving Trust information, or making any other modification. The point of the FFL is to keep track of the movement of weapons so if anything is stolen or a crime happens, then they can trace that to it's last known point.

Gary, yes, a private party doesn't log it out, but they are also the ones that hold the Stamp that allows them to have possession of it. You cannot possess a weapon that has the stamp, unless you are, 1) Listed on the Trust and have a copy of that trust on your person, or, 2) Have a FFL, and have logged it into the books.

If it's stolen from your shop, they are going to the person that brought it, he/she is going to say "I dropped it off at Gary's", and then the ATF is going to show up and want to see when it was brought to you. You'll have zero proof of it ever being in your possession and you'll have an issue at that point.

[Mark Greenbaum]

Another restriction is: You must have a separate physical business mailing address form you residence, because of receiving guns or parts through the mail is not deemed legal. I was set to become a gun hand engraver about 10 years ago, and the FBI and ATF gave my fee back, because I was going to operate the business in my shop in the basement. I would love to get into hand engraving guns for the money and artistic canvas, but dealing with the ATF & FBI is very restricting. Any inquiries I get on the phone, I just say, " I cannot hand engrave your weapon, you'll have to contact a local gunsmith or dealer, for reference to an FFL licensed hand engraver." It might just happen to be a local ATF or FBI agent on the other end setting a trap. I like to have life, not in prison, thank you.

[Tim Bateson]

Another restriction is: You must have a separate physical business mailing address form you residence...

Not true. I work out of my house and have an FFL. The ATF doesn't care where you do business, just as long as you ONLY do it at the address specified on the FFL.

[Bill George]

Not true. I work out of my house and have an FFL. The ATF doesn't care where you do business, just as long as you ONLY do it at the address specified on the FFL.

Correct and FFL holders can ship firearms USPS but must be Priority Mail.

[Gary Hair]

Another restriction is: You must have a separate physical business mailing address form you residence, because of receiving guns or parts through the mail is not deemed legal. I was set to become a gun hand engraver about 10 years ago, and the FBI and ATF gave my fee back, because I was going to operate the business in my shop in the basement. I would love to get into hand engraving guns for the money and artistic canvas, but dealing with the ATF & FBI is very restricting. Any inquiries I get on the phone, I just say, " I cannot hand engrave your weapon, you'll have to contact a local gunsmith or dealer, for reference to an FFL licensed hand engraver." It might just happen to be a local ATF or FBI agent on the other end setting a trap. I like to have life, not in prison, thank you.

The first two years I had my FFL were while I was running the business from my home. They had no problem with that at all. Maybe it was different 10 years ago, but it's not like that now.

[John Lifer]

A couple of things, under the Clinton administration and for a while afterwards, The batfe was actively trying to reduce ffl holders, and they didn't want to license home based businesses. That changed under Bush and I'm home based also, Mark go get your license and start Engraving. Laser or hand.
Kev, section C. That you highlighted is in response to gun owners who buy and sell part of their collection. Again, here and in later section what is occasionally? Batfe doesn't know, get your license it don't do guns.

And logging in a book is required if that owner walks out your door an you have the gun in your possession!