Construction Grade Lumber for Furniture?

[Charles Li]

Firstly, I'm very new to woodworking so pardon my ignorance. However, I can't seem to find a straight answer for the viability of using construction grade lumber for furniture. It seems to be very popular to use 2x4's, pine boards, and the like for furniture in the DIY circles. There's a lot of plans from people like Ana White using affordable wood like this to make very useful pieces. I'd like to too! However, pretty much everything I read here says not to because of the instability of the wood. Basically, it in very short time it will warp, cup, or split leaving you with a useless piece. I find it hard to believe that all furniture is doomed to failure if built with construction grade material if it's this popular. I see work benches made out of 2x4's all the time (granted with a different top). It must be stable in some scenario. So that's my question. What scenario can you use construction grade lumber successfully? Just make sure it's dried out enough? Only use a specific type of pine? Are there certain finishes to avoid? Differences between indoor and outdoor? I'm in Chicago so I see both extremes with temperature and humidity. I don't need things to last a lifetime or look like the most gorgeous piece ever. But, I do like the idea of learning with cheaper material and getting something useful out of it for a good number of years. Thanks for any insight!

[Gary Petit]

Charles,

I have made a few pieces from construction grade lumber. I have made outdoor wheel barrow planters, kitchen tables, benches, etc. I have not noticed any warping or any splitting in the wood myself. I usually just look for the best lumber the big box stores carry. Now, pine is not the first choice of lumber I go to for outdoors. It does not stand up well to the elements. Rots very easily, that is why you use pressure treated lumber for outdoors. I have made some pieces of furniture out of that too. It really is what your prefer, and budget allows really. I enjoy using oak, cherry, walnut, cedar at making projects. I am from southern Wisconsin, so we get the same type of elements. Outdoors you want to use different types of finish, if you plan to go that route. Although, you can use construction pine, and paint the piece, and use it outdoors too. I have done that for a family member, and it is still standing today.

Hope that helps a little bit.

[Mike Heidrick]

Do what you want Charles. If you want to make a chair from a 2X, knock yourself out.

[Howard Acheson]

The biggest issue with construction lumber is that it is dried to a much higher equilibrium moisture content (EMC) than architectural lumber. The way around it is to carefully inspect the lumber before purchase. Check the mill stamping which should tell you the initial EMC. Understand that most construction lumber is dried only to about 18 to 20%. Furniture lumber is normally dried to about 6 to 8% EMC.

If you buy construction lumber expect to stack and sticker it in a dry location where there is some small amount of air movement through the stack.. Give it 3 - 6 weeks of drying before using it. It would also be a good idea to buy a wood moisture meter.

[Charles Li]

Charles,

I have made a few pieces from construction grade lumber. I have made outdoor wheel barrow planters, kitchen tables, benches, etc. I have not noticed any warping or any splitting in the wood myself. I usually just look for the best lumber the big box stores carry. Now, pine is not the first choice of lumber I go to for outdoors. It does not stand up well to the elements. Rots very easily, that is why you use pressure treated lumber for outdoors. I have made some pieces of furniture out of that too. It really is what your prefer, and budget allows really. I enjoy using oak, cherry, walnut, cedar at making projects. I am from southern Wisconsin, so we get the same type of elements. Outdoors you want to use different types of finish, if you plan to go that route. Although, you can use construction pine, and paint the piece, and use it outdoors too. I have done that for a family member, and it is still standing today.

Hope that helps a little bit.

I just made a side table and stained it with Thompson's water seal. It's my first foray into this but now wonder if it will make it through the summer lol. Sounds like painting will give the most longevity but I prefer the look of the stain. Guess I can't have it both ways with pine. I can store it under the deck in the winter not sure if that will help. I'm a bit leery of using pressure treated with the kids. They'll be leaving drinks and food on it. I want to make a bench for the driveway so sounds like I should consider paint as that will stay exposed. Thanks!

[Phil Thien]

I've made plenty of stuff from construction lumber, mostly for the shop (tool stands, etc.). I make a point of buying decent lumber when I see it, I like Doug-Fir quite a bit. Sometimes I can find vertical-grain Doug-Fir 2x4's and other dimensional lumber that is nearly defect-free. When I can find stuff that is free of defects, I buy it and let it sit in my shop until I'm ready for it. Construction lumber can have a higher moisture content, but honestly I've found it less reactive (moves less after I machine it) than hardwood I've used.

[Charles Li]

The biggest issue with construction lumber is that it is dried to a much higher equilibrium moisture content (EMC) than architectural lumber. The way around it is to carefully inspect the lumber before purchase. Check the mill stamping which should tell you the initial EMC. Understand the most construction lumber is dried only about 18 to 20%. Furniture lumber is normally dried to about 6 to 8% EMC.

If you buy construction lumber expect to stack and sticker it in a dry location where there is some small amount of air movement through the stack.. Give it 3 - 6 weeks of drying before using it. It would also be a good idea to buy a wood moisture meter.

The wood I just used for the side table sat for about a month and my cheapy moisture meter read around 9%. Hopefully that will be enough. Do you think a dehumidifier would help at all? This is just a residential type one you'd stick in a room. My "workshop" is 10x15 ish above ground so I'd think it could make a difference?

[jack forsberg]

much of the work i see on you tube is very rustic and put together with pocket hole screws. My self i don't see the point in using this wood for fine work when i can get real wood for not much more (about 50 cent more a foot). Most of what i see are pieces that take a weekend to build. That said not all constitution grade is the same wood . Theirs eastern white pine /fir/ red wood /cedar. and all of theses are better suited than the most common white spruce that is pron to gum pockets and warpage it a high level. spruce is good for stick framing. All i see as the reason is this wood is cheap and common at your home center. wood is cheap get the good stuff.

[Mike Olson]

Construction grade lumber is OK if you don't plan on slicing it up. If you keep full size 2x4 pieces and just cut to length then you shouldn't have much problem at all. Most of the 2x projects you see online are just that.

If you plan on cutting it up into thinner stock then try really hard to find Fir 2x4's They are orange/yellow in color and are SOOOOOOOO much better than the generic white 2x's
I have some pretty good experience now with slicing 2x4's into thin strips. The white Pine I tried to use I would actually see the pieces start to twist after putting a freshly cut piece down and all those little knots start cracking and splitting open.
The Fir acted fine, no twists and the few knots stayed intact.

if your interested in what I just built with a Fir 2x4 you can check it out here:

http://youtu.be/n3E6ljLQFBI


Also the Summers 2014 2x4 challenge just finished up. I think there were ~ 80 entries all made from 2x4's

[Prashun Patel]

Houses are framed with construction lumber. It'll make perfectly functional furniture.

The movement we all bemoan is an issue in making tight fitting joinery and keeping it perfectly straight.

If you build the aesthetic around this fact, it's quite possible to make nice, and appropriate furniture with it.

Shoot, I was in a restaurant in NYC yesterday where they used the cheapest, rawest wood on their tables. They didn't remove any milling marks, and they let it split right down the center. But they just built around it, emphasized it, and made it part of the look. Even to my prejudiced eye, I have to say it worked.

Try not to use 'green' wood; use only 'KD'.

[Mark Bolton]

While dimensional lumber (framing material) could be acceptable for a finished surface in certain areas I think one main thing to consider is that all the same issues apply. If your conscious of wood movement and build accordingly your results can be perfectly find and in some cases very nice. Lower grades, and less dry grades, of material are commonly used even in commercial furniture building however the use is appropriate to its condition. For instance a carcass for an upholstered piece of furniture can accommodate lesser quality materials. Other pieces can incorporate lesser quality secondary woods. And so on.

Of course if your thinking of building finish furniture out of framing lumber you'll have to allow for a substantial leap away from fine furniture but seeing as your OK with that have at it.

The bottom line is material selection, and an understanding of wood movement, are the most critical.

[Peter Kelly]

Shoot, I was in a restaurant in NYC yesterday where they used the cheapest, rawest wood on their tables. They didn't remove any milling marks, and they let it split right down the center. But they just built around it, emphasized it, and made it part of the look.Also, that restaurant may or may not be there next week ;)

[Rich Enders]

The extra cost of common furniture grade material over construction grade is almost incidental. You have to weigh this against your time.

[Shawn Pixley]

You can make functional furniture from construction lumber. The wood is strong and won't collapse in compression. Construction lumber around here is typically fir or pine in "Wet or Kiln Dried (KD)" grades. Both when bought would be too wet to use immediatly for fine or craftsman like joinery. I made utility pieces in my youth for shelving, utility tables, base for a futon mattress, etc. None of the pieces I would consider fine furniture.

Wet wood will shrink, bend, twist, cup and check. This is not all perefctly predictable. If you can afford to wait to sticker and dry it, everything will be better. For what it is worth, I have seen shows where the "builder" built pieces that stood an looked good for the pictures but I would be surprised if they lasted a few years without looking horrible or falling apart. Remember in these shows all it need to do is look good for the reveal.

if you are interested, go for it. You will learn a lot. If your expectations are modest, you will be proud to say,"I built this." There is a value there that everyone should have. There is a wealth of experience here happy to share. Just don't be unhappy if they don't confirm your opinion.

[william watts]

I am also thinking of using construction grade lumber for an outdoor bench. Our lumber yard has premium grade Douglas Fir 2X that has few knots and is straight. I would stack and sticker it in the rafters of the garage. Temperatures in this summer climate reach 100 on a regular basis. Temperatures in rafters of the garage I bet would get to 120. Humidity stays around 30%. Douglas Fir is listed as having moderate weather resistance and if it is maintained it should last a good longtime. Here is a pic of a bench I will try to duplicate, It has a brass plaque on the back stretcher that says 1984. I don,t know what kind of wood it is, but has not been maintained.

[johnny means]

Where are you guys buying furniture grade lumber that doesn't cost much more than construction grade?

[Bill McNiel]

To reiterate, 2x4s, etc are not dried to the lower moisture levels typically appropriate for furniture. That being understood, one can construct some very nice projects using it. Sticker it and wait for it to dry. I have built multiple shop projects with fir (bases for my "stationary tools", frames, shelf supports, etc.). In my region Lowes has significantly better material than HD (HD is all Hemlock, white, soft and very wet, I won't use their stuff to frame anything). When I find fir studs that are verticle grain with minimal knots I buy them, sticker them and eventually re-mill and use them.

Go ahead and try out some projects. Woodworking is a lifelong learning experience.

[Victor Robinson]

Like others have said, you can make furniture from construction lumber. Stack the odds in your favor by buying kiln-dried, and as vertical grain as possible (look at the end of the 2x4s...if you see half a tree stay away from that board!).

Hardwoods are more expensive than 2x4s and construction grade pine, but they also behave very differently. With respect to hand-tooling, they can be frustrating to work because they require sharper chisels and plane blades to avoid chipping, tear-out etc. I think a good compromise is poplar. It can be had relatively cheaply, and though it is softer than the average hardwood, it works/machines like a hardwood and is much better than the construction grade stuff. It's a good hardwood to learn on, especially if you're chopping dovetails, doing mortise and tenons, etc.

Don't bother with pine. Will leave a nasty pitch all over your machines and it's just a pain to work IMHO.

[Mike Olson]

Where are you guys buying furniture grade lumber that doesn't cost much more than construction grade?

That's what I was wondering. a full 2x4x8' is ~ $3 here.

[jack forsberg]

I have been told the Tuba4 furniture goes great with the milk crate master pieces of the 70s. frank Loyd wright eat your hart out.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny-6AkRAcjY

[Rick Gibson]

A good friend of mine had 5 kids, 4 girls and made bunk beds for the girls they lasted at least 15 years and 2 moves that I know of before he started breaking them down as the kids moved out.

[Charles Li]

Construction grade lumber is OK if you don't plan on slicing it up. If you keep full size 2x4 pieces and just cut to length then you shouldn't have much problem at all. Most of the 2x projects you see online are just that.


Very cool project! All I've found at the Borgs here are SPF so far but I don't know enough to identify the specific type. I have yet to hit up a real lumber yard but maybe that's my next step.

[Charles Li]

While dimensional lumber (framing material) could be acceptable for a finished surface in certain areas I think one main thing to consider is that all the same issues apply. If your conscious of wood movement and build accordingly your results can be perfectly find and in some cases very nice. Lower grades, and less dry grades, of material are commonly used even in commercial furniture building however the use is appropriate to its condition. For instance a carcass for an upholstered piece of furniture can accommodate lesser quality materials. Other pieces can incorporate lesser quality secondary woods. And so on.

Of course if your thinking of building finish furniture out of framing lumber you'll have to allow for a substantial leap away from fine furniture but seeing as your OK with that have at it.

The bottom line is material selection, and an understanding of wood movement, are the most critical.

Thanks, makes sense. I don't know if this is more of a fine furniture site so maybe the discussions is a bit out of place. Sounds like most people are saying if you get the drying under control and have reasonable expectations it can be worth the effort.

[Randy Rizzo]

I've done a few pieces over the years with construction grade material. To date it has held up well. Use it for a "rustic" look for our cabin..

[Curt Harms]

Sticker and let it dry as others have said. Look for stock where the rings aren't 1/4" apart. Lowes sometimes has 2 X 3s with very tight rings, 10+/inch. I've used those for temporary or prototyping purposes and they seem pretty stable. If you're going to paint or upholster, who really cares how the wood finishes. And if you do want to finish, Randy's results above are pretty hard to argue with. You're not likely to get heirloom quality formal pieces from construction grade materials. Not everything has to be heirloom quality, especially when you're just starting out.

[Erik Christensen]

I gave construction lumber a try for a weekend project just to see how it would turn out - http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?199915-Weekend-project-with-BORG-materials&highlight=

I would not do it again unless I wanted a rough/rustic look. yes i saved a few bucks over poplar but it cost several additional hours making extra pieces due to chipout when shaping and it just took a lot longer than it should have. You want the rustic look then go for it but for me the cost savings are not worth the hassle of working with it - you might place a different value on your shop time.

[Peter Quinn]

I built the carriage house doors on my garage with 2X6's from the Home depot. I do millwork (cabinets, doors, etc) for a living, so I have a good Idea what to look for. You should the faces and hear the comments from the lumber aisle guys when some weird little man in glasses shows up with a moisture meter and turns a whole pile of 2X6X10 to pull 8 boards. I like to go in the late fall/winter when building is slow and shelves are stocked, better selection. I like to go on thursday mornings.....the Wednesday overnight crew culls the piles and restocks, so supply is higher then and no crowds to contend with at 6AM thursdays. The stuff I bought was KD and was in a pile of #2 com but most of it was select or better, at least #1, and the MC at core was 9%...the borg heating system is like a kiln in some ways, good to go n middle of winter. Fir will air dry IME cut to rough lengths in about 6 months from 18% to usable, maybe sooner other factors depending.

Wider framing material is your best bet for cutting clear quality material. It is cut from more mature trees and is generally stronger/cleaner than 2X4's due to the spans it must with stand. 2X10's will be floor joists, ceiling joists, maybe rafters, I've found some fine boards hidden in packs of 2X10's. 2X4's are often thin trees and limbs, not stable, good enough for the purpose but maybe not for your furniture. So learn to read a board, good exercise anyway if your into this wood working thing, be selective and observant. You probably wont get a piece in the MET made from 2X's but it will make functional objects you can enjoy and be proud to call your own creation.

[johnny means]

Am I the only person who thinks it's wrong to cull construction lumber while it's on the rack?

[Art Mann]

I haven't made fine furniture with construction grade lumber because of the quality. However, I have made precision jigs and fixtures with it many times. If you choose carefully and let it dry to several months it is as stable as any other lumber. The problem I have with it is it isn't precision machined. I will machine it down to flat, straight and precise dimensions just as if it were rough sawn.

[Mark Bolton]

Am I the only person who thinks it's wrong to cull construction lumber while it's on the rack?

No, your not. If it were my yard I'd throw them out on their ear. It's an utterly obnoxious and absurd ebdeavor. Many would argue you'd go broke pissing off the retail crowd.. I don't buy it. I buy from two yards weekly that simply won't stand for such goofyness but if the boxes are OK with it who am I to say...

It's kooky to say the least.

[Randy Rizzo]

No, your not. If it were my yard I'd throw them out on their ear. It's an utterly obnoxious and absurd ebdeavor. Many would argue you'd go broke pissing off the retail crowd.. I don't buy it. I buy from two yards weekly that simply won't stand for such goofyness but if the boxes are OK with it who am I to say...

It's kooky to say the least.

Sorry, I see nothing wrong with picking thru a stack of boards to get what you want. But I don't leave things a mess when I'm done either, I restack the discards or stack as I'm sorting. I buy from either of 2 local yards here and neither has any problem with me or anyone else doing the same. Lumber, whatever grade, is expensive enough as it is without taking boards that are split, twisted, or damaged in shipping. I've learned to stay away from Borg lumber. It may very we'll be some species of pine, but the stuff from New Zealand, Chile, Norway, sure isn't the same as I get here locally. Another issue I have with HD is the way their 1 X stock is stored. On end, not flat. It's all bowed to some degree. At least Menards stuff is in a rack stored flat.

[johnny means]

Construction lumber is a commodity, graded and priced to a certain standard. When I go in to purchase 50 2x4s I buy 55, knowing that a certain amount will be below standard. I also know that 6 of those will be suitable for framing a door. The rest good enough to be covered in drywall. When one comes in and pillages the stack for "the good ones" they are essentially lessening the grade of the entire stack. Thus ruining the commodity. Imagine going into a store cutting up several sheets of ply taking the parts and leaving the waste, then only paying for the actual square footage that you needed. There is an aisle with a higher grade product, this product is graded and priced to a higher standard. Finding a legal end run around paying for this better product does not make it right. Of course, these same buyers will moan about the lack of quality while doing everything in their power to avoid paying for it.

[johnny means]

I've done a few pieces over the years with construction grade material. To date it has held up well. Use it for a "rustic" look for our cabin..

Excellent work, Randy. I love seeing the "quality material" bull debunked.

[Shawn Pixley]

Johnny, I would tend to agree with you when we refer to real lumber yards. However, I see Borgs as a different animal. I don't see real professionals using them. As they advertise to the ill-trained weekend warrior, I don't see the problem as one they didn't create themselves. I don't doubt the usability figures you cite. But when I last did substantive framing those yields would have been unacceptable. We in the trades in various roles have created this monster ourselves by accepting poor material. In borgs I expect people to be be culling the unusable wood. It is unusable. Its not the weekend warrior who is buying 100's of studs. When you need six studs you shouldn't have to buy ten. You don't buy 10 hamburgers to get 6.

When I worked in Texas I had "top drywallers" tell me a gypboard wall couldn't be made without a texture coat to cover imperfections or their own ineptitude. But I had built many buildings elsewhere where the walls were smooth and true and needed no texture coat. We allow ourselves as a culture and society to be sucked into a vortex of mere adequacy rather than striving for excellence. "Well whattayogonado?"

Me, I like to work with fine hardwoods and treasure them as the should be. I treat woodworking as my own drive for excellence. I have no fear of perfection as I will never find it. But it doesn't disuade me from the journey. So off my soapbox and I slink back to the neander / instrument forums where I belong. I get myself in trouble up here.

[jack forsberg]

I see Borgs as a different animal. I don't see real professionals using them.

I agree there not real yards but i do however go there to pull grade /cull. Mostly clear from the cedar,clear pine from the shelving . it is well below wholesale if you get the grade. I am there a few time a week and we go and pull grade each time we go to stock up. I think i am as ethical as Home depot is in this regrade. BTW i love that they stand the 1x12 ruff saw pine on end. makes it easier for me to pull grade.

[johnny means]

So it's alright to do this to a Borg because they are not a "real" lumber yard? Should I hold the "real" lumber yard in higher esteem? It's this something for nothing attitude that's ruined almost everything we buy.

BTW, most of the construction material sold at the borgs is sold to professionals. Not to many soccer moms picking up a load of 2x12x16s.

[jack forsberg]

So it's alright to do this to a Borg because they are not a "real" lumber yard? Should I hold the "real" lumber yard in higher esteem? It's this something for nothing attitude that's ruined almost everything we buy.

BTW, most of the construction material sold at the borgs is sold to professionals. Not to many soccer moms picking up a load of 2x12x16s.

No need to hold the real yards in a higher esteem. real yards will not stand for you pulling grade were as the BORG will help you do it and load your truck. I find it a little hard to build a house from a shopping cart myself.

[John A langley]

I have to agree with you Johnny ever stand behind one of those jokers waiting for your turn to get two by fours they go through 50 to get three by the time they got them to their car or truck there crooked anyway I will admit also I look at a few good ones from the top or first row but I won't roll through the whole pile , but I don't buy very much lumber from the Borgs I have most of my hardwood lumber delivered if I buy 200or 300 board feet of alder or other hardware I have to take what I get and I've learned to work around it , after all this is wood and the beauty is in the eye of the beholder

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I recently built a cabinet that was shown on the Woodsmith Shop. Their version used pine 2x4 and MDF. I used furniture grade plywood and, rather than buy a 2x4, I purchased larger pieces such as 2x8 or 2x12. Usually, when I pickup a 2x4, if you look at the grain pattern on the end, you will see that they probably cut a rather small tree and the center of that tree is in the middle of the 2x4. When I have something like a 2x6 or larger, I am generally able to cut some quarter sawn stuff from the edges that I expect will be more stable.

I have not done a lot of work with pine, but, it is my understanding that it likes to bleed after you finish it, so, I opted to finish my cabinet with a coat of Amber Shellac; it looks very nice.

[Kevin Nathanson]

I have to support Shawn on this one.

We just built a brand new house, working with the very best builder in our area. As you might expect, his lumber supplier delivered all the framing lumber. The builder would then cull out all the unusable boards and utilize the rest, after which the lumberyard would come BACK on site to pick up the culls, which were then deducted from the invoice for the lumber. That just seemed to be the expected behavior by all involved in the process. Why should I pay for something that is unusable due to poor quality?

K

[Charles Li]

I am also thinking of using construction grade lumber for an outdoor bench.

Nice, hope you post the progress on here!

[Charles Li]

I've done a few pieces over the years with construction grade material. To date it has held up well. Use it for a "rustic" look for our cabin..

Wow, maybe up close I could see the "rustic" side of it but that looks beautiful to me and would qualify as fine furniture. I guess everyone's defininition is different. I'm hoping to make an entertainment center as well but not gonna come out nearly as nice lol.

[Charles Li]

I don't understand why people get bothered by culling. It seems to me the store or supplier either allows it or they don't. There is a big sign at my Menards that says you're free to pick your own wood. Why would I grab the banana shaped one if the one below it is straight? That's about as far as I go though as I don't really think perfect boards exist in those piles anyway. It's not worth my time. But if the next guy wants to, and the place allows it why should I care? I'm guessing some lumber yards allow it and many don't? Not my up to me and plan accordingly...

[Myk Rian]

I cull the wood. Spent my time and chose the wood for an 8x10 shed. Took a while, but it was all straight.
If I'm going to spend $2k on it, then heck yeah I'm going to make sure I don't have to take any back.

Same with their S4S. Heck, I've found some nice curly maple by going through the stack.

[Mark Bolton]

Construction lumber is a commodity, graded and priced to a certain standard. When I go in to purchase 50 2x4s I buy 55, knowing that a certain amount will be below standard. I also know that 6 of those will be suitable for framing a door. The rest good enough to be covered in drywall. When one comes in and pillages the stack for "the good ones" they are essentially lessening the grade of the entire stack. Thus ruining the commodity. Imagine going into a store cutting up several sheets of ply taking the parts and leaving the waste, then only paying for the actual square footage that you needed. There is an aisle with a higher grade product, this product is graded and priced to a higher standard. Finding a legal end run around paying for this better product does not make it right. Of course, these same buyers will moan about the lack of quality while doing everything in their power to avoid paying for it.

Wow, extremely well said.

[Shawn Pixley]

Yes I am saying it is alright because thats the way the the Borgs have chosen to advertise and run their buisiness model. 95% of their advertising is for the do it yourself crowd, not the professionals. Because the Borgs have chosen to advertise that way, you or they should not be complaining that as uneducated trades people, they are not following your rules which they dont know (if you need six studs, take the top ten off the pile). Yes, i think you should hold a commercial yard to a higher standard and esteem. They serve the construction trades. I don't see how the differences between borgs and commercial yards has ruined anything for you. The Borgs brought in the lower standard wood and make make the profits by lower costs but accepted the higher wasteage in their pricing.

I am not saying that this would be done or acceptable in a professional / commercial yard. I would not do it there, nor do these yards easily take walk-in sales. However, my experience has shown that the quality of lumber at the Borgs is in no way equivelent to that of the commercial yards. The have different business models and paractices who am I to argue that. If the Borgs didn't expect or allow people to pick over the piles, they would sell in a different fashion (no consumer load, etc..). I don't see a lot of skid loads of lumber running out of the Borgs for house framing. I see small customer loads going though the retail and small contractor lines. The problem we have with the yields you referenced is that they are true and largely representative for larger quantities - say n>100. When you need three studs, but two are unusable because you have to take the top three from the pile, that doesn't work in a consumer / Borg model. Frankly, I am surprised you think that commercial yards and Borgs have equivelent quality and service models in lumber.

As to my bona fides: Admittedly my trade work is primarilly non-residential but involves millions (30+ M GSF) of square feet globally of commercial RE, institutional, higher education, and technical facilities. I have never worked with a contractor who bought from a Borg. The last framing / homebuilding I didn't do for myself was in the eighties. But there are amazing differences in the quality of construction between the various building types and geographic regions (US and Global). I end up using largely commercial tradesmen for work I don't do myself (single ply roofs, solar, etc.). I do not expect equivelence between suppliers and select accordingly.

[Mark Bolton]

I have to support Shawn on this one.

We just built a brand new house, working with the very best builder in our area. As you might expect, his lumber supplier delivered all the framing lumber. The builder would then cull out all the unusable boards and utilize the rest, after which the lumberyard would come BACK on site to pick up the culls, which were then deducted from the invoice for the lumber. That just seemed to be the expected behavior by all involved in the process. Why should I pay for something that is unusable due to poor quality?

K

To an extent we too will ship back extremely bad material when it lands from our suppliers. That said, while only you and your builder know for sure, I highly doubt your builder was sorting material at any level remotely close to what we are talking about here. I have actually seen first hand the condition we are talking about. I guy sits in the isle tearing through layer upon layer looking for a dozen pieces. As I said, if the retailer allows it, have at it, but its a completely bogus practice.

When we receive a load of material for a new home or addition which includes full as well as mixed units if we get some extremely bad material in there it will go back. Severely twisted, checked or split along its length, stringer stock that is simply unusable, and so on. However you just dont pick through a unit of 288 precut KD studs and roll each one looking at every little thing, rejecting each that doesnt have four sharp corners, and the like. Its just an unsaid that you will get some cull material in a full unit that will get cut up for blocking, stakes, and so on. By the end of the job youve forgotten there even was any cull to begin with because it all gets used up.

No one is insinuating that anyone who needs 6 2x4's should walk in and grab the first 6 even if they are twisted and bowed. All yards cull those material out of the pile periodically but you may get there before thats happened.

[Michael W. Clark]

I have to support Shawn on this one.

We just built a brand new house, working with the very best builder in our area. As you might expect, his lumber supplier delivered all the framing lumber. The builder would then cull out all the unusable boards and utilize the rest, after which the lumberyard would come BACK on site to pick up the culls, which were then deducted from the invoice for the lumber. That just seemed to be the expected behavior by all involved in the process. Why should I pay for something that is unusable due to poor quality?

K

When I worked framing houses about 20 years ago, that is exactly how we received material and unusable material went back. Granted, not every 2x4x14 was straight enough for wall plates so they got used somewhere else if possible, but 2x12s and 2x10s for girts and band boards better be dead straight. They were expensive then and buying additional for scrap was not a common practice. I saw whole bundles of mixed lumber get rejected sometimes. They would send another truck back with a lift to re-load the bundle and take it back. I would imagine the pros shopping at the Borgs are doing smaller remodeling jobs or just ran short and are trying to get finished with a particular job or complete a punch list.

I've been to lumber yards where the guys at the yard will do some pickign through to get you better pieces. Granted, they are not pulling every board out, but they realize that for small orders, you are a little more picky.

I built some shop storage cabinets with plywood panel doors and 2x4 frames (planed down) and they turned out really well. I'm finishing up a underbench storage cabinet that will have all the drawer fronts out of 2x4 material. I was in the mood that I wanted to burn up leftover material from a DIY project so I used it. It does move a lot when you start working with it, so your yield may be a little less than with hardwoods at the proper MC.

[John Piwaron]

Firstly, I'm very new to woodworking so pardon my ignorance. However, I can't seem to find a straight answer for the viability of using construction grade lumber for furniture. It seems to be very popular to use 2x4's, pine boards, and the like for furniture in the DIY circles. There's a lot of plans from people like Ana White using affordable wood like this to make very useful pieces. I'd like to too! However, pretty much everything I read here says not to because of the instability of the wood. Basically, it in very short time it will warp, cup, or split leaving you with a useless piece. I find it hard to believe that all furniture is doomed to failure if built with construction grade material if it's this popular. I see work benches made out of 2x4's all the time (granted with a different top). It must be stable in some scenario. So that's my question. What scenario can you use construction grade lumber successfully? Just make sure it's dried out enough? Only use a specific type of pine? Are there certain finishes to avoid? Differences between indoor and outdoor? I'm in Chicago so I see both extremes with temperature and humidity. I don't need things to last a lifetime or look like the most gorgeous piece ever. But, I do like the idea of learning with cheaper material and getting something useful out of it for a good number of years. Thanks for any insight!

First, I hope you see this since thread creep has taken this to a completely different topic.

Now - I've used pine or whatever it is the Borg (Home Depot) sells as 2x4s to make a furniture project. Not a good one, just one that's getting the job done until I can build something better. I had a need but not much time to build an armoire a couple of years ago. I chose to use 2x4s and MDF to build it. I jointed and planed all of the 2x4s so they looked nice. No mill surface remained. I made 3 shelves by joining the 2x4s into frames onto which I put MDF. Then on the 4 corner posts I cut slots into which those shelves were inserted. I left a large opening, pretty much the upper 1/2 as somewhere I would hang shirts. I happened to have a 2" dia oak dowel to use as a closet pole. At the very top I put a frame around those corner posts. Everything was joined together with plain old #10 wood screws. It's really just 4 posts with open shelves. There are no sides or back enclosing anything. It took 1 weekend to make. There is no finish on it. For the most part it looks acceptable. I did this to be a temporary construct until I can get to making something more "presentable". Well, this is going on 3 or so years now. It's still functioning for what I built it to do. I have had no problems with warping, twisting, cracking, etc. And the wood grain looks o.k. But remember - I did work to get rid of the "construction" look 2x4s have.

So yeah, you *can* use construction grade lumber for furniture, but it's probably not going to have the look of what is accepted as "fine furniture" if only because of the grain of the wood involved. Had I wanted to finish it, I could have, but for it's location and use I didn't feel the need.

When it's time as an armoire is at an end, I'll disassemble it (it will never be able to leave the room it's in otherwise) and reassemble it in either the basement or garage. In either of those locations it may need some finish to help protect it from moisture.

[Mark Bolton]

Yes I am saying it is alright because thats the way the the Borgs have chosen to advertise and run their buisiness model.


Thats all well and good Shawn but that mentality has single handedly resulted in the largest, most uniform, reduction in overall product quality in history of the building industry. Tools, lumber, appliances, electrical fixtures, you name it. They have all been driven ever and ever closer to the sludge layer since this business model has seen the light of day. Your drywall finisher story (very common to me) is a direct indicator. Acting like any of us can simply sit by and let it happen as if it were something happening in its own bubble is utterly delusional.

We are in a time where I use to be able to go out an buy quality and separate myself from the greedy hoards at the big boxes who are willing to buy a light fixture a half dozen times in their lives when my customer wants to buy one but those days are gone. Manufacturers have long realized they are simply not able to make a quality product for the few and a junker for the home center crowd and majority rules so we are all left with the junk. This of course doesnt apply to lumber so much but the concept affects the whole.

Sadly, the mindset I and the Johnny's of the world, have been speaking to for years is dragging us ever closer to the bottom. As has been stated repeatedly, its the retailers position to allow it or not.

My local borg's are competing for entire house packages just like every other yard in the area. They are shipping multiple units of OSB and roofing to jobs just like my wholesale supplier is. The retail crowd paying their high margins is what allows them to sell at a few percent above or even below cost when the need arises.

I am in a convenient position in that I simply dont give them my dollars on large items. I may cherry pick them on sundries here and there but they never get my big business on principal alone. Many dont have that luxury. I am thankful to have a small yard that can smoke their pricing all day long for whatever reason.

The simple fact of the matter is, just because they can, doesnt make it smart.

I have been beating this drum for perhaps 20 years and it can likely be searched out here and on other forums. But its all happening. There is an ever diminishing quality of product out there and its due to two things, corporate greed and marketing, and even moreso the greed of the personal consumer. Trying to get three grades higher than your paying for buy sorting through a pile of 2x4's speaks clearly to this.

[Randy Rizzo]

Holy Moly Batman! Didn't realize culling of lumber would evoke such strong feelings and responses. I use construction grade lumber for its "rustic" look. And when I say rustic I don't mean sloppy workmanship or poor fitting joints. I happen to live in a log cabin. I want knots and heavily grained looks. It looks good in here, like it belongs. My winter project is a dresser and night stands for our bedroom. I made this mockup to check construction methods and look. I always intended it would be an outfeed table for my TS crosscut sled, no matter how it turned out. I was only interested in the front, face frames and inset drawers (first attempt at those) the sides are some 3/4" AC ply I had laying around as was the top which I banded in some left over hickory from the cabin flooring. There's going to be a few tweaks, but overall this is it.

[Art Mann]

I suppose all those people who object to culling lumber also occasionally buy rotten produce at the grocery stored all in the name of fairness. Where I live, the good builders don't tolerate shoddy material from big box stores or lumber yards.

[mark kosse]

290630

This is all construction grade 2X6. Trim too.

[Justin Ludwig]

I suppose all those people who object to culling lumber also occasionally buy rotten produce at the grocery stored all in the name of fairness. Where I live, the good builders don't tolerate shoddy material from big box stores or lumber yards.

Where I'm from, I've seen contractors deliberately order #3 quality 2x's for framing houses. I stopped doing business with a contractor who builds upwards of 10 homes a year because I didn't want my cabinets in his "custom" homes. Those guys are few and far between and only get business because so many new home owner/builders around here don't understand quality.

Back on topic:

I built 3 of these last year out of yellow pine from my FIL's barn (he has over 10k bdft rough sawn). Less than construction grade. Notice it starting to bow down at the top. Meh! It still swings and the cup holder doesn't stick open or closed.
290632

[johnny means]

[Qo
UQUOTE=Art Mann;2274498]I suppose all those people who object to culling lumber also occasionally buy rotten produce at the grocery stored all in the name of fairness. Where I live, the good builders don't tolerate shoddy material from big box stores or lumber yards.[/QUOTE]

False analogy. Produce at the grocery store is arranged and displayed in a manner to allow for picking. A better analogy would be picking through the pre packed bags of fruit and making a bag of all the perfect ones.
l

[Shawn Pixley]

Thats all well and good Shawn but that mentality has single handedly resulted in the largest, most uniform, reduction in overall product quality in history of the building industry. Tools, lumber, appliances, electrical fixtures, you name it. They have all been driven ever and ever closer to the sludge layer since this business model has seen the light of day. Your drywall finisher story (very common to me) is a direct indicator. Acting like any of us can simply sit by and let it happen as if it were something happening in its own bubble is utterly delusional.

You've made my point for me. Don't buy from the Borgs. The only lesson they'll learn is economic. I'll support the appropriate quality of raw materials and buy from the vendor who provides this with any other parameters you deem important to you (country of origin, wages paid to the workers, service level, you name it).

Maybe I was unclear in my response. I am incredibly unhappy with the shoddy materials and workmanship shown today. I don't agree with their business model, but I don't think it unacceptable to cull through their stock to get decent material. Mind you, I don't do this or even buy from Borgs if i can avoid it, but I don't think it is wrong. And the issue was made by their own choosing, not mine.

I agree that the borgs have driven the quality in trade lumber yards down as well. This may be the saddest thing of all. The only ways this will change will be if consumer backlash forces change (the power of the pocket book) or an appropriate trade oganization sets universal standards that can and will be enforced. In metals (primarily precious) there are universally held and applied standards that designate what Sterling Silver is from Fine Silver from "Generic Silver." It would take that sort of standard and enforcement. Unfortunately, I don't see a standard for framing lumber that states "studs 96" -3-1/2" by 1-1/2" clear, no knots, acceptable bow 1/8", acceptable twist 3 degrees over 96" and so on and so forth..." Yes we have some of that for grading and compressive strength, but it clearly isn't adequate to solve the issues today. We have the allowance and responsibility to shape what we desire.

The framer today is held to a lower standard than the past. Layout +/- 1/8" in 100' is not seen in most construction today. That used to be the minimum standard.

I any case, this has strayed from the OP's question, and for that detour I appologise. You can build functional objects from construction materials. You may need to make accommodations for the materials and It may help if you are interested in a "rustic" aesthetic. We have seen other's work showing this and I am glad. My path is not the only path, just the only path for me. I encourage the OP to dive in headfirst and make something. He will learn something, make a successful piece, and we will add another woordworker to the community. Bravo!

[jack forsberg]

tuba 4 is so yesterday for furniture Shawn it pallets now. BTW there are just not the trees there use to be so the grade of timber is falling because of that too. back in the 50s and 60s they framed in red wood your neck of the woods. much of our best timber goes to japan.

[Daniel Hartmann]

Buy a moisture meter, the ryobi pinless sold at Home Depot is actually pretty good. The reviews were mixed but mine works great. I build stuff from construction grade Douglas fir all the time. I take the moisture meter and only buy the clearest, driest 2x12x16' boards I can find. I've found boards that are 7%. I try to buy 2x12s that have the pith right in the center. This will yield furniture parts up to 6" wide that are perfectly quarter sawn. I usually will break down the 2x12 as soon as possible and sticker the parts for a couple weeks while checking the MC. In my experience. If I stick to the method I mentioned above I don't get much movement. I'm building a queen size bed that will be painted from Doug fir at the moment. You will get quite a bit of waste but at ~$1/ board foot who cares.

[Charles Li]

Thats all well and good Shawn but that mentality has single handedly resulted in the largest, most uniform, reduction in overall product quality in history of the building industry. Tools, lumber, appliances, electrical fixtures, you name it. They have all been driven ever and ever closer to the sludge layer since this business model has seen the light of day. Your drywall finisher story (very common to me) is a direct indicator. Acting like any of us can simply sit by and let it happen as if it were something happening in its own bubble is utterly delusional.

We are in a time where I use to be able to go out an buy quality and separate myself from the greedy hoards at the big boxes who are willing to buy a light fixture a half dozen times in their lives when my customer wants to buy one but those days are gone. Manufacturers have long realized they are simply not able to make a quality product for the few and a junker for the home center crowd and majority rules so we are all left with the junk. This of course doesnt apply to lumber so much but the concept affects the whole.

Sadly, the mindset I and the Johnny's of the world, have been speaking to for years is dragging us ever closer to the bottom. As has been stated repeatedly, its the retailers position to allow it or not.

My local borg's are competing for entire house packages just like every other yard in the area. They are shipping multiple units of OSB and roofing to jobs just like my wholesale supplier is. The retail crowd paying their high margins is what allows them to sell at a few percent above or even below cost when the need arises.

I am in a convenient position in that I simply dont give them my dollars on large items. I may cherry pick them on sundries here and there but they never get my big business on principal alone. Many dont have that luxury. I am thankful to have a small yard that can smoke their pricing all day long for whatever reason.

The simple fact of the matter is, just because they can, doesnt make it smart.

I have been beating this drum for perhaps 20 years and it can likely be searched out here and on other forums. But its all happening. There is an ever diminishing quality of product out there and its due to two things, corporate greed and marketing, and even moreso the greed of the personal consumer. Trying to get three grades higher than your paying for buy sorting through a pile of 2x4's speaks clearly to this.

I still don't see how this affects how you choose to work. If you want quality "Tools, lumber, appliances, electrical fixtures" it's out there for a premium price. That's still available for people like you. Have you ever considered that affordability might improve people's lives as well? Paying for quality isn't always appropriate nor an option for everyone. You said yourself you have some luxury in those choices but many don't. I guess my point is, it's not black and white. It's not all greed or laziness. Times change...

[Charles Li]

I any case, this has strayed from the OP's question, and for that detour I appologise. You can build functional objects from construction materials. You may need to make accommodations for the materials and It may help if you are interested in a "rustic" aesthetic. We have seen other's work showing this and I am glad. My path is not the only path, just the only path for me. I encourage the OP to dive in headfirst and make something. He will learn something, make a successful piece, and we will add another woordworker to the community. Bravo!

Heh it has strayed... I figure I'm not the only beginner with this question so hoping the thread will help others as well. The pics of pieces people posted (which I find impressive) prove to me that it's possible and the issue will be with me if I have a problem. I'm a long way away from building the furniture that's been posted but hoping to get there eventually. I've gathered to keep an eye on moisture (with a meter if possible) and let dry at home, buy larger boards, be prepared for a lot of waste, and expect a more rustic look. These are all things I can do. There's a stress level I have with more expensive wood. I'm working on a simple end grain cutting board where I'm constantly being afraid of messing it up. It's a totally different experience than working with 2x4's where practically speaking, mistakes aren't that expensive. I'm a big believer that you learn a lot faster when you're willing to fail.

[Mark Bolton]

I still don't see how this affects how you choose to work. If you want quality "Tools, lumber, appliances, electrical fixtures" it's out there for a premium price. That's still available for people like you. Have you ever considered that affordability might improve people's lives as well? Paying for quality isn't always appropriate nor an option for everyone. You said yourself you have some luxury in those choices but many don't. I guess my point is, it's not black and white. It's not all greed or laziness. Times change...

Charles,
As I mentioned in my post this unfortunately isnt the case any longer. Many (I would almost say most) manufacturers years ago did in fact offer lower grade lines right along side their higher quality lines. You had a choice. Now however, for the reasons I mentioned, most manufacturers are simply unable or unwilling to make two lines and the one that sells the most is the winner and that is always the cheapest. And I mean that with regards to both cost and quality.

In many locations buying at a non borg doesnt get you anything different with regards to the materials. They often come from the same distribution. Fasteners are a prime example as are sundry items. What you do get is service and some mutual loyalty as well as a few better products.

Point being, and its water under the bridge now because were too far down the river to paddle back, this business model which has infected the consumers rationality like a cancer has driven the mean average of quality into the sewer. People simply dont even know what quality is because its been so long they either have forgotten or are too young to have ever experienced it.

The facts are simple. When would you even think of a time when it was acceptable for lighting fixtures to only last a few years without rusting and pitting causing you to buy several in your life as opposed to one? When would you imagine that when a faucet starts dripping you change the whole faucet rather than put seats and washers because its just as "cheap" (hah both meanings). Your walls require more frequent painting because homecenter paints are "cheaper". On and on.

Of course we now have more frequent changes in decor and upgrading and so on all of which drives the economy. And you get what you pay for. But the poison is in the mentality behind it all. Greed.

[Mike Olson]

I try to buy 2x12s that have the pith right in the center. This will yield furniture parts up to 6" wide that are perfectly quarter sawn. I usually will break down the 2x12 as soon as possible and sticker the parts for a couple weeks while checking the MC. In my experience. If I stick to the method I mentioned above I don't get much movement. I'm building a queen size bed that will be painted from Doug fir at the moment. You will get quite a bit of waste but at ~$1/ board foot who cares.

That is a fantastic idea. next time i'm at a big box store i'm going to check those out.

[Curt Harms]

................
Of course we now have more frequent changes in decor and upgrading and so on all of which drives the economy. And you get what you pay for. But the poison is in the mentality behind it all. Greed.

I suspect the "why pay more for something that will last for 25+ years when I'm going to replace it in 10" mentality enters into it. "Why pay more for something that will be obsolete long before it wears out?" I realize this reasoning may not apply to building products as it does to consumer goods e.g. electronics but I wonder if the attitude carries over. I guess it depends on the customer base but if you have two builders offering similar 2000 sq. ft. homes but one is $10,000 cheaper than the guy using higher quality plumbing & electrical fixtures etc., I suspect the guy offering the cheaper house is gonna sell more. I doubt many buyers can tell the difference or care much, at least until they have to start replacing stuff.

[John Piwaron]

much of our best timber goes to japan.

Can you cite a source for that remark? I'm not doubting you, I'd just like to read about that.

[Aaron Berk]

Something from some 2x6's and a few 2x10's

Needed another bed, and needed it in a hurry......
290722

[jack forsberg]

Can you cite a source for that remark? I'm not doubting you, I'd just like to read about that.


this does not show grade.
http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/forests/canada/sustainable-forest-management/criteria-indicators/13245

more here about what i am talking about
http://www.international.gc.ca/media_commerce/comm/news-communiques/2011/302.aspx?lang=eng

[Frederick Skelly]

I have a pretty little end table right next to me now whose base (legs + stretchers) are made from 2x4's I bought at a Big Box store. Select your boards carefully, try to pick those which are straight (unwarped) and "close" to quartersawn. Lay it out so that you cut your parts out of the nicest part of the board - not just at one side or the other.

Maybe I got lucky, but Ive done this several times without issue. The grain is pretty. The legs have no knots because I cut around them. The wood worked easily. And I have a whopping $7.50 in materials.

Aide: I always cull the boards I want, going through the whole pile if I need to. Im only a hobbyist and honestly didnt know I wasnt supposed to (or that I wasnt allowed to). But some of the points made in this thread might better explain the lumber desk's irritation with me than my previous impression that they thought I was making a mess. I need to consider that some more.

Anyway, Id encourage you to try it. Wont cost you much ($10?) and it might suit you too.

Take care.
Fred

[John Piwaron]

Select your boards carefully, try to pick those which are straight (unwarped) and "close" to quartersawn.

Aide: I always cull the boards I want, going through the whole pile if I need to. I'm only a hobbyist and honestly didn't know I wasn't supposed to (or that I wasnt allowed to). But some of the points made in this thread might better explain the lumber desk's irritation with me than my previous impression that they thought I was making a mess. I need to consider that some more.



Was there another "higher grade" stack available to chose your stock from? If not, then I don't see a problem. If there was, choose from that and avoid the ire of the people running the store and address the concerns of the above posters. Problem solved.

When I go to Home Depot for 2x4s or 2x6s, I too look for the straight ones. BUT I don't look through the entire pile. I'll look at what happens to be laying on the top level or two. And choose from those. What I'm doing is avoiding the worst of it - boards that look like curly fries, wicked bowing, huge knots, or, worst of all, big splits. I'm different, maybe, that I'm also willing to work the 2x material with my jointer and planer and glue up if I have to to get the part I need. I'd rather not have to, but I'll do what I have to do. This is treating the construction material not unlike what happens at the hardwood store. I choose material there in the exact same manner. Some boards just aren't suitable for my project.

In fact, I did that recently for a fairly good size project. I built a set of outdoor planters using 2x Cedar boards. To suit my design I had to glue up *all* the parts from 2x material to get the dimensional parts I wanted. Plus, I didn't buy enough to make it easy. I used all of the cut offs to make parts too. That was a lot of more gluing up to bring them to the sizes I needed. In the end, there was almost no waste. But a considerable amount of glue up. That definitely made it a bit on the time consuming side. Today those planters are completed, painted and outside filled with soil and flowers.

[Art Mann]

[Qo
UQUOTE=Art Mann;2274498]I suppose all those people who object to culling lumber also occasionally buy rotten produce at the grocery stored all in the name of fairness. Where I live, the good builders don't tolerate shoddy material from big box stores or lumber yards.

False analogy. Produce at the grocery store is arranged and displayed in a manner to allow for picking. A better analogy would be picking through the pre packed bags of fruit and making a bag of all the perfect ones.
l[/QUOTE]

The big box stores I visit have lumber displays that are perfectly analogous to vegetable displays at grocery stores. The lumber is anything but "prepackaged". The two places I usually shop, Lowes and Home Depot, often have a guy standing there to help you sort through the pile. If the procedure were not acceptable to the seller, then such people would not be on the payroll. I buy premium lumber at a lumber yard and I don't have to sort through a pile because it is all exactly what I am expecting with few exceptions. If it weren't, I would shop elsewhere. Such quality and service comes at a price.

[Charles Li]

To the people who've posted the fine pics of furniture,
I never defined construction grade or rather I made the assumption that construction grade = 2x's of pine basically. Some pics look like some ply or maybe pine boards as well? I don't really know which is why I'm asking. What's the general definition of construction grade and are any of those pics dressed up with bits of furniture grade wood?

[Art Mann]

My definition of "furniture grade" lumber includes only high quality hardwoods like cherry and walnut with a very few exceptions. By my definition, none of the photos in this thread appear to be using any furniture grade wood. I must say, though, that I am not a wood snob. I have seen a lot of nice furniture and cabinets built with cheaper woods like pine and fir. There are some situations where it seems to me to be the most appropriate choice.

[Brian Holcombe]

The borg has it's place, hard to find a local guy open on sunday evening when your toilet starts running and you need replacement parts in a hurry. However when it comes to building materials I first chose my local suppliers since they are carrying 1st rate quality and that matters to me. I do not want 5 ply or mdf core hardwood plywood or wet lumber. In fact, I find the local guys rarely more expensive when you are comparing on a relative basis. They are often considered to be more expensive because most refuse to carry low quality and compete for the bottom of the market. My local places are very reasonable and amicable, especially after you have established yourself as a repeat customer.

They also have something that no BORG carries with any reliability; Good advice when you need it.

Artist, builder, or furniture maker should appreciate that continuation of craft requires support well above what is available at the low end of the market, and should also be willing to extend that same support to their tool and material suppliers when possible.

[joseph f merz]

If your project can stand nail holes I would sujest running the dumpsters of remodel projects .lumber is dry .any twisting cracking and bowing has mostly been done and you have a good idea of what the boards will do . As a builder I always save the redwood from the dumpster .Works so nicely ,beautiful moldings . Also built a bunch of doors from some fir lumber that was left over from a barn .It was ungraded ,rough ,but dry . Also at my yard there is a product they sell as fence boards .Also rough and an odd dimension .I bought some and have in a shed drying out .if left outside it twist bad .Cassed some doors in it -gorgeous . Also built a bedframe with these fence boards .Here in calif where I am at they have recycle yards and you can buy used lumber . Love that stuff .

[johnny means]

They're is no standard for furniture grade, but there are standard by which lumber is graded. I assume when we mention construction grade here we're talking about 2x, 4x, and 1x material intended to be used as framing, joists, sleepers,etc. Basically, all the wood you don't see when the house is finished. The 1x material sold next to the shelving and trim wouldn't be in this same category. All species are available in higher grades for use in furniture and cabinet making. I can go to my local yard and buy SYP that is free of knots and defects, kiln dried, and QS. I would call this furniture grade. It is also several times more expensive than the material at the borg.

[Randy Rizzo]

To the people who've posted the fine pics of furniture,
I never defined construction grade or rather I made the assumption that construction grade = 2x's of pine basically. Some pics look like some ply or maybe pine boards as well? I don't really know which is why I'm asking. What's the general definition of construction grade and are any of those pics dressed up with bits of furniture grade wood?

Charles, the attached photos, projects were all made with 1X8's usually, ripped to width. Side panels for finish pieces usually cabinet grade 3/4" pine ply. THe tops, 2X Doug Fir planed to 1" and edge glued. The unfinished pieces (sanding sealer only) are in my storeroom and were the "test bed" to check construction methods. The walk-in closet, bookcase pieces have been done the same way. Both are close to 10 years old now.

[Mike Olson]

So, as for Lumber yards having better advice... I Just came from a real lumber yard where I asked the MANAGER "I need a few 2x that has an orange color, i think Fir but I'll know it when I see it..."
his reply "That's called green fir, you don't want that stuff. You want the white stuff, it's the same thing as it turns white after it's kiln dried"

AHHHH..... NO!

Went into Home Depot and found 2x10x8 and finally took better note of the exact type. It's Douglas Fir. So, if you plan on building anything nice from construction lumber make sure you get Douglas Fir. http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/softwoods/douglas-fir/

[Steve Collins]

[Qo
UQUOTE=Art Mann;2274498]I suppose all those people who object to culling lumber also occasionally buy rotten produce at the grocery stored all in the name of fairness. Where I live, the good builders don't tolerate shoddy material from big box stores or lumber yards.

False analogy. Produce at the grocery store is arranged and displayed in a manner to allow for picking. A better analogy would be picking through the pre packed bags of fruit and making a bag of all the perfect ones.
l[/QUOTE]

Huh? You lost me here. When I wish to purchase one onion at the grocery this often involves sorting through them. The bin has layers that are 2 to 3 deep in onions. When I sort through lumber the same basic method of sorting is used. Look at one and place it either on my cart or back on the stack. What does this have to do with pre packaged products?

[johnny means]

False analogy. Produce at the grocery store is arranged and displayed in a manner to allow for picking. A better analogy would be picking through the pre packed bags of fruit and making a bag of all the perfect ones.
l

Huh? You lost me here. When I wish to purchase one onion at the grocery this often involves sorting through them. The bin has layers that are 2 to 3 deep in onions. When I sort through lumber the same basic method of sorting is used. Look at one and place it either on my cart or back on the stack. What does this have to do with pre packaged products?[/QUOTE]

Fruit at the grocery store isnt stacked 40 layers deeqp, seperated by partitions every 5 layers or so. When you put a peice of fruit back your leaving the pile in the same shape it was in when you got there. I've seen stacks of 2xs that look like pick up sticks because some cheapskate wants to find the plum in the pie. No matter how you look at it the practice of culling construction lumber for the clear stuff is an attempt to get something that you're not paying for. I, for one, am tired of having to deal with products that are designed and engineered around tightwad consumerism. It's frustrating and more expensive in thelong run.

[Art Mann]

It is entirely possible that different big box stores do things differently. What I usually see at my Home Depot is a separate rack that contains the rejects from where people have picked through and removed the better quality material. The reject rack is color code priced anywhere from 30% to 80% less than the standard material racks. This same rack also contains custom cut material that wasn't accepted. I have bought materials from this rack many times because, for example, I needed short 2X4s and could afford to cut out and discard the bad part and still come out ahead. I once bought a stack of a dozen or so custom cut 2 X 3 foot pieces of pegboard for $0.50 each. The only problem I see with this system is that the store is getting his customer to grade his lumber rather than his supplier.

[Mark Bolton]

It is entirely possible that different big box stores do things differently. What I usually see at my Home Depot is a separate rack that contains the rejects from where people have picked through and removed the better quality material. The reject rack is color code priced anywhere from 30% to 80% less than the standard material racks. This same rack also contains custom cut material that wasn't accepted. I have bought materials from this rack many times because, for example, I needed short 2X4s and could afford to cut out and discard the bad part and still come out ahead. I once bought a stack of a dozen or so custom cut 2 X 3 foot pieces of pegboard for $0.50 each. The only problem I see with this system is that the store is getting his customer to grade his lumber rather than his supplier.


I dont think thats really any different than any yard Ive dealt with actually. I would think the big boxes do it to, but most small/independent yards when picking mixed units of material for delivery realize that certain boards, if shipped, are just going to come back, so they cull them out while building loads for delivery. Then walk-in customers cull some more, and at the end of the day the yard guys straighten up piles and remove the really rough stuff. This gets set aside and sold at a discount.

The yard I deal with presently takes the time to bundle this material in like sized/length packs. They then number and list these packs at the construction desk. You can walk out and look over these packs, get an idea of the condition of whats in there (ends are all twisted, checks, shark bites, and so on) and decide if the price they have for the pack is reasonable to you.

Im not being mean Art, but what your missing in this (my) scenario is that some ding dong likely STILL walks in there and says "well there is 28 2x6 10's in that cull pack and I only need 16, can you cut it open and let me pick the best 16 of the junk and sell them to me?". The answer is, NO, its a pack. The same theory applies to the rack material, your gonna get some good, and some bad, and thats excactly what your paying for. #2 2x4's are not priced for "all perfect and straight", they are priced for the #2 grade they are stamped with.

In your scenario, home depot (or otherwise) is not relying on its customers to grade its lumber. That was already done for them at the mill. The material all met grade, and likely still meets the grade. Even the cull! Because in the grade is a certain allowance for defect and the customer is getting what is being paid for.

This has been the point of this entire last half of this thread. Whether you realize it or not, when your buying dimensional framing lumber, your buying #2. Virtually no one stocks #1 but it is most definitely available. #1 would be nearly all clean, 4 sharp corners, less knots, and so on. That said, if there were a lift of #2 2x4's for 2.25/ea and right next to it a lift of #1's for 5.25/ea, I can almost guarantee you which the majority would buy.

At my local lowes this is crystal clear. They have the standard units of #2 SPF 2x4x8's and then down the way they have a unit of fir 2x4's all of which are clean, clear, and ready do go, but they are a buck and a half more. They just sit there.

The point is, and again its completely up to the retailer so this is all just conversation, the customer shouldnt be able to (or perhaps in good conscience shouldnt) dig though the pile of lesser grade material to find the handfull of beauties and leave the rest for everyone else. You should have to walk down to the +1.50 rack and pay for what you get.

I realize full well that very few yards stock #1, or both SPF and fir, but the point is the same. Cull is cull, junk, twisted, bowed, cracked, and so on. But sorting out for quartered, god forbid a moisture meter, and so on is a bit of a stretch when your buying low grade material to begin with.

[Duane Meadows]

If you buy lumber sorted(culled, whatever) and have no return, or take it as it comes and have to return what you can't use, seems to me the end result is about the same to the lumber yard ultimately. If I can't use it and know that I can't use it... no point in dragging it home, then having to drag it back. If I know that I will cut a lot of smaller pieces from the lumber, I am not near as picky.

If I am loading the lumber on to a cart myself, I am not taking something I can't use. If I am buying 1000 2x4's and having them loaded onto my vehicle(or delivered), I take my chances. The more work I have to do the pickier I can be... sorry(not really) if you don't like that!

For furniture, probably worth looking at a better grade lumber. Be tough to find in a lot of areas, I know it is around here!

As to the original subject of the post, yes I have built furniture from construction grade(1X, not 2X) lumber. Looks nicer and definitely will out last most of the pre-assembled stuff you can buy! Without craftsmanship, you can buy as expensive of lumber as you wish, and still end up with crap!:)

[Art Mann]

The pine framing lumber I see at the big box stores would not grade as #2. It is a mix of #2, #3 and worse. I know about grades because I separated lumber at a huge Kimberley Clark (the Kleenex people) sawmill one summer during my college years. If I were unable to sort through the mish mash of lumber I typically see, I would never shop at big box stores at all. Neither would a lot of other people. The store managers where I go know that and allow sorting as a means to sell lumber to people who care about quality. I have completely stopped buying #2 and better 5/4 decking lumber at these places, even though they allow sorting, because the quality is still pretty much unusable. Instead, I order from a real lumber yard and they deliver material that is really #2 and better grade. Just recently, I ordered a selection of #1 kiln dried PT lumber because I was rebuilding a porch on the front of a house and it really needed to look nice and be painted immediately. It never occurred to me to even look at, let alone buy from, a big box store.

[Cody Kemble]

Huh? You lost me here. When I wish to purchase one onion at the grocery this often involves sorting through them. The bin has layers that are 2 to 3 deep in onions. When I sort through lumber the same basic method of sorting is used. Look at one and place it either on my cart or back on the stack. What does this have to do with pre packaged products?

Fruit at the grocery store isnt stacked 40 layers deeqp, seperated by partitions every 5 layers or so. When you put a peice of fruit back your leaving the pile in the same shape it was in when you got there. I've seen stacks of 2xs that look like pick up sticks because some cheapskate wants to find the plum in the pie. No matter how you look at it the practice of culling construction lumber for the clear stuff is an attempt to get something that you're not paying for. I, for one, am tired of having to deal with products that are designed and engineered around tightwad consumerism. It's frustrating and more expensive in thelong run.[/QUOTE]

People also seldom buy onions by the gross.