Glue movement, again

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

I know this has been beat to death on several forums, but yesterday I had a chance to visit a dining room I delivered last July. The tables and two corner cabinets were built by me, using plastic resin (DAP Weldwood) on all panels and table tops, and Gorilla on all mortise and tenons. The chairs, which was the first batch not built by me (after I left the mesquite outfit) were done with Titebond II, because the guy that made 'em hated poly glue, which is what I always used. Everything was built in unconditioned shop space, in mid to late June in the San Antonio humidity and delivered directly to the air conditioned house in Kerrville.

With a very critical eye, I couldn't find a single place on the tables or cabinets that shows any glue movement whatever...including the endgrain at the end of the tables (which I find incredible). The chairs, on the other hand, have raised glue lines everywhere, and 'leaks' at the mortise and tenon joints that weren't there before.

Old timers will point to a table they made in 1963 that's as good as new...and in fact, I've got a bookcase I built in 1985 that has very little creep (but it's there)...sooooo, I'll say again...I don't care what the scientists say...modern yellow glue MOVES, and with bad results.

KC

[Chris Padilla]

KC, but the wood probably moved, too, right? So how can you tell that the glue moved as opposed to the wood? Or am I missing your point...as usual! :confused:

[Alan Turner]

Kirk,
I agree, to some extent, and depending upon the glue used. I think Titebond II moves a bunch, and will not use it, but for me, I have not had that problem with Titebond Original.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

Yes, Chris, you missed the point. I'm speaking of the yellow glue 'creep' problem. May well have something to do with wood movement, but whatever is happening doesn't have the same effect when using other glues.

KC

[Richard Wolf]

Not from personal experience, but I am having a hard time finding people that like the ploy glues,(Gorilla). I have tried them and can't get myself to like them, just so messy and I hate the foam. It seems like some people are also questioning their durability over time.

Richard

[Mike Cutler]

KC. I gotta tell ya' bro', you and Bob Smalser are giving me the heebies.
I just finished a major project, at least for me, and I used Titebond Extend almost exclusively for it. There are over 400M&T joints in this bookcase.
If I can be a little bit concieted and prideful, I think it's the first project I've done that someone would want to have in their own home someday, besides me. Now I'm worried it's going to fall apart someday and not be repairable.
In my defense I can say that not a single drop of glue is providing any load strength. The load is carried by the mechanical properties of the M&T joints, but you guys still got me concerned.
I used the Titebond extend because I needed a longer open/working time,due to the complexity of the glue up, and Gorilla Glue would have set up to fast. I looked at Epoxies, but didn't see any that I thought would fit the bill.I kinda shy away from hide glues because of the long term issues associated with them, by that I mean that you know someday the joints will loosen up.
I'm getting ready to build an Arts and Crafts Style interior door, with an antique stained glass window center panel. The door will be made of Brazillian Cherry, once again with M&T Joinery. Any thoughts or suggestions on adhesives would be greatly appreciated. I think this door will be turn out to be something special, and I'd like it to stand the test of time, so to speak.
Don't get me wrong here, this isn't a criticism. If there is a better way to do something, I definitely am willing to listen and try it.

[Bob Smalser]

I been talking to those problems of creep and repairability of aliphatic glues ever since I arrived here...

...and usually got either ignored or shouted down. Can't compete with Norm.

I've never had a problem with U/F plastic resin for interior work, and I bet I've used a 55 gallon drum of it over the decades.

Remember that on the scale of woodworking competence, from concrete form carpentry being "2" and original luthier and interior yacht joinery work being "10"...

...Norm is probably a "6".

Here's a typical conversation on the topic from people I would have thought would have known better:


You wrote that epoxy is the most flexible of all glues, and I was prepared to accept that and try marine epoxy, as I said. But I just got my copy of Popular Woodworking (August 2005, Issue # 149), and on page 17 their senior editor, Robert Lang, writes,

"What you're experiencing (he is responding to someone worried about the appearance of fine glue lines at joints in a tabletop after a couple of years) is common with aliphatic resin (yellow or white ) glue. When the glue dries, it doesn't form a hard surface,but a flexible plastic film. As the wood expands and contracts, the glue moves with it. This is actually one of good points about modern glues; if it didn't move, it could eventually fracture, resulting in failure of the joint. Other glues, such as hide glue,reactive polyurethane or EPOXY, AREN'T as flexible (my caps)...."

We see that Lang appears to agree with my theory about what may have happened to my glue-ups , and he says that epoxy is not as flexible as yellow glue. So, now,I'm really confused: do I switch from Gorilla glue to marine epoxy or to good old yellow glue?


As I said....aliphatics will work fine with some clamping pressure, which is most likely what caused your glue failure, not lack of "flexibility".

The rest of this is all just splitting hairs.

Mr Lang has "creep" and "flexibility" confused from my read...either way, whether the glueline eventually stands proud or not and how far the gluejoint can bend before it fractures are too different critters, anyway.

[Michael Perata]

I have to go with Bob on his u/f plastic resin (I use Urac 185) glue recommendation. Or, altenatively, use an epoxy where you absolutely do not want glue creep and need gap gilling properties for an exterior application.

I don't know if Bob was ahead of the curve, but the aliphatics have always been know for their glue creep.

Polys - stay away.

[Joseph O'Leary]

Michael, now I'm confounded. Why not Poly's?

[Gil Mitchell]

hello everyone my first post,
I've got a top and bottom panels to glue up for a frame and panel chest. was going to use titebond three , but after reading some posts a few days ago and now tonight i'm :confused: leary.
Idone a sofa table 7months ago with it no creep yet .never used any plastic resin glue. could you reomend any brands mike's got the heebies and i got the jeebies

[Robby Phelps]

Hey everyone. I was wondering where do you purchase the plastic resin. I cannot find a local dealer here in northern utah. I would like to try it. Can it be purchased online. I know that there are some restrictions on the stuff. Any help would be appreciated.


Thanks

[Bob Smalser]

I don't know if Bob was ahead of the curve, but the aliphatics have always been know for their glue creep.

Aliphatics have been around since the 1950's. I remember a bottle of it in my uncle's boat shop that got tried out and rejected...it sat there til it turned dark brown.

Try Ace Hardware for local U/F resin...the ones on the coast usually carry them. Otherwise, look to boatbuilder suppliers like Jamestown Dist in RI and Fisheries Suppl in Seattle.

In the days before epoxy, resin was used on brightwork applications like spars and trim because it's a perfectly-blended glueline, where resorcinol is dark purple.

Resorcinol remains the best glue by far, but needs 70 degree temps, good joinery and gobs of clamping pressure. Resin also needs weather above 65 or so and solid clamping pressure. Also has a 1-year shelf life as a powder, but when it goes bad ir usually mixes funny and that tells you to throw it out.

I use poly regularly on outdoor applications (not in boats, tho) and like it just fine. Doesn't fill gaps at all, contrary to the hype, isn't as strong as its betters but it's regluable with epoxy...a key criteria with me.

[Dan Forman]

Not to add any more confusion to this topic, but what is wrong with hide glue? I thought that one of it's main virtues was the ease of repairablility. I can see how it's not something one would want to use on boats due to being water soluble. I have a basement shop, and the resin glues mentioned would not like the cool temps down there, so seems like hide would be the way to go for me. I know of at least two brands that are available premixed, so keeping a gluepot warm shouldn't be required. Any comments?

Dan

[Sam Blasco]

I find the polys very easy to work with, and if you change your approach just a tad, just not that messy. Use a plastic spreader (you can cut them to any size and shape you want, and use them over and over again, ad-infinitum.) Wear gloves, use less glue than you are used to, keep a spray bottle close with water, and let the squeeze out dry and foam all it wants. Don't mess with it until it hardens, then it just scrapes off like a charm and sands very easily. I like the open time with polys, and you can get them out of clamps pretty quick and move on. I only use aliphatics on non-critical areas and jigs. Joinery and panels it's poly all the way for me. Haven't had a mis-hap yet. I am also a big fan of epoxy and use it when I need extended glue up times or maximum strength and versatility is desired, and for repairs. It's good if you have gaps to fill. And I like making putty with epoxy using wood dust from the same boards. Much longer open time than Famowood, Whisperwood, and the like. Epoxy doesn't like UV, though, unprotected. I also like to use poly on plastic laminate counters that will come into contact with moisture, like kitchens and bathroom. Use contact cement for the body and use poly an inch or so back along the edges and where you sink cut outs will be (great seal).

[Bob Smalser]

Not to add any more confusion to this topic, but what is wrong with hide glue? I thought that one of it's main virtues was the ease of repairablility. I can see how it's not something one would want to use on boats due to being water soluble. I have a basement shop, and the resin glues mentioned would not like the cool temps down there, so seems like hide would be the way to go for me. I know of at least two brands that are available premixed, so keeping a gluepot warm shouldn't be required. Any comments?

Dan

Nothing is wrong with hide glue for the appropriate applications. Right now I'm looking at a 150-year-old table with hide glue long-grain joints that are just as sound as they were in 1850.

It has to be fresh and ya gotta get the mix and temp right.

For resin and resorcinol, I have an old electric blanket covered by a tarp than gets tossed over the work during the cure stage.

[Michael Perata]

Michael, now I'm confounded. Why not Poly's?
It has NO gap filling capability and it is an absolute mess to work with.

For some reason known only to me and the glue gods, I glued up my workbench bench top partly with epoxy and partly with poly. I have gaps all over the place where I used the poly whereas the epoxy has a zero glue line.

[Chris Padilla]

I find the polys very easy to work with, and if you change your approach just a tad, just not that messy. Use a plastic spreader (you can cut them to any size and shape you want, and use them over and over again, ad-infinitum.) Wear gloves, use less glue than you are used to, keep a spray bottle close with water, and let the squeeze out dry and foam all it wants. Don't mess with it until it hardens, then it just scrapes off like a charm and sands very easily. I like the open time with polys, and you can get them out of clamps pretty quick and move on. I only use aliphatics on non-critical areas and jigs. Joinery and panels it's poly all the way for me. Haven't had a mis-hap yet. I am also a big fan of epoxy and use it when I need extended glue up times or maximum strength and versatility is desired, and for repairs. It's good if you have gaps to fill. And I like making putty with epoxy using wood dust from the same boards. Much longer open time than Famowood, Whisperwood, and the like. Epoxy doesn't like UV, though, unprotected. I also like to use poly on plastic laminate counters that will come into contact with moisture, like kitchens and bathroom. Use contact cement for the body and use poly an inch or so back along the edges and where you sink cut outs will be (great seal).

One thing I like about polys is the open-time but I've found that they need to stay in the clamps longer than aliphatic glues. I've used Gorilla exclusively so far...dunno what brand you are using, Sam.

For spreading, I cut up credit cards. I also like to warm the poly in the microwave (usually about 10 s) because then you can spread it very, very thin as it is almost the viscosity of water. This viscosity also make veneer bubble repair go easily.

For strength, I like to rely on the joinery but a few articles have clearly spelled out that polys aren't as strong as aliphatic glues, which was a surprise to me. It isn't like it is that much less but they are all stronger than the wood so, in the end, who cares?

To deal with messy squeeze-out (and depends on the joint and where it is), I like to use blue painter's tape to keep the foam out from sticking in places where removal could be challenging but overall, it cleans off great if you can resist the urge to muck with it while it's curing.

I also like mixing epoxy with wood flour and even dyes. I have some semi-punky-in-spots gorgeous spalted maple boards that I soaked with epoxy to strengthen up, fill holes, stablize knots, etc.

[JayStPeter]

KC,

Do you have any pics that show glue creep? I haven't experienced it personally, but am interested in avoiding it. I'd like to see some pics to know what to look for. I try to choose glues based on the joint and application. Seeing the failure mode would help me understand what actually happens.

Sam,

I agree with your assessment of poly glue. Except for getting it on yourself, I find it much easier to clean up poly glue after it dries than yellow. I also find poly and epoxy easier to deal with when finishing time comes. Not as many "spots". Poly does require different application and clamping than yellow. Less glue and more solid clamping. The foaming process will attempt to push apart the joint, so the clamping has to be solid. For example, a few finish nails sometimes don't do the job like they would with yellow glue. Contrary to what I've heard elsewhere (not in this thread), I think the joinery needs to be tighter as the "gap filling foam" has no strength.

I'm not a fan of the Gorilla glue bottle. When new, the glue works great. But, after a pretty short amount of time (a month or two), Gorilla thickens and becomes more of a pain to use. I attribute that to the bottle itself, or more specifically the cheapo poor fitting cap they include. I am partial to the elmers poly because of it, I've had it work like new after 2 years. I still tend buy small bottles of the stuff, just in case I leave the cap off ... doh.

Jay

[Don Baer]

Whenever I see discussions like this I often go to a majormanufacturers web site to see what they reccomend for various applications. Since I am a proponent of Elers Poly I went to the Borden Web site to see what they have to say to use for various applications. Here is a link to what they have to say.

http://www.bordenchem.com/ourBusinesses/forestProducts.asp

AS you can see Urea Formaldehyde(Liquid or Powder)
is at the top of the list for joining.

[Bob Smalser]

One feature I love about poly is that if you catch it at the right state of cure, you can put that panel thru the planer with no scraping the glue residue off first.

Gotta catch it where it's still soft enuf not to chip the planer blades, but cured enuf not to either break apart or gum up the blades.

Poly is the cat's meow for green and airdried wood....but like resorcinol, it requires perfect joinery and high clamping pressure. It's also about half the strength of resorcinol....but glue strength is rarely an issue.

[Dan Forman]

Bob---Is there a problem with the premixed hide glues? Titebond makes one, also this one by Patrick Edwards http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-OLDBROWN.XX&Category_Code=BS

Dan

[Joseph O'Leary]

I agree with Sam, Chris, Jay and Bob. The technique is different, the joints and clamps must be tight ( but joints should be tight anyway, right?). But the results are very good and the clean up while the foam is semi-soft is easy.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

KC,

Do you have any pics that show glue creep? I haven't experienced it personally, but am interested in avoiding it. I'd like to see some pics to know what to look for. I try to choose glues based on the joint and application. Seeing the failure mode would help me understand what actually happens.



Jay...it's more 'feel' than 'see', but extreme cases will be quite visible. You'd know when you have it.

KC