toothing plane build

[bridger berdel]

well, I may be doing this all the hard way, but....

some years back someone gave me a section of very old leaf spring. it sat there, implying it's carbon content with a sly wink, taking up space in my "tool steel" junk box, until a young blacksmith guy invited me over to play in his shop. I chopped off the tapered end pieces and annealed them in his forge. then they sat around for another while. then I got enthusiastic with an angle grinder and ruined the first one. today I put a few minutes into the second one, grinding the faces to flat. I have the idea that I can scrape the teeth into the flat face with a hacksaw blade held in a jig. hey, it might work... and if it does, i'll have one thick 'ol toothing blade. if I want to use it with a chipbreaker and bed it bevel down I'll have to flatten both sides, which looks like a lot of work. if I bed it bevel up I can forego the chipbreaker since the bedding angle of a toothing plane is likely going to need to be pretty high anyway.... right?

I'm a little out of my comfort zone on this one, having never actually had a toothing plane in my hands before. I understand that toothing planes come in 2 general categories, scrapers for preparing bedding for veneer and roughing planes for figured woods. I'm after the latter. any help from those who have been here before me would be much appreciated.

[bridger berdel]

making some progress on the blade.

the bevel side (no bevel ground yet, per George's recommendation:
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and the toothed side:
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the take away lesson from today? no matter how much you pay for a blade from Ron hock, Lee Valley or whoever you get them from it's cheaper than making them yourself from a leaf spring.

[bridger berdel]

hardened by the capable hands of Zack: http://www.zachlihatsh.com/

with a start on grinding the bevel, and with the chipbreaker:


http://24.media.tumblr.com/a89a0159b9191d13ce754c482d199a03/tumblr_n6x7nuigAC1qhrm32o1_1280.jpg
http://37.media.tumblr.com/6eab3c34d5e7cf0a5fc1d40318e26aae/tumblr_n6x7ngmZnB1qhrm32o1_500.jpg

[Joshua Stevens]

props for having a go at it! Im a bit confused as to why you added a chip breaker, the toothing planes I have are a single iron bevel down plane similar to a coffin smoother. I believe the traditional way to make the teeth was to anneal the blade, stick it on a filemakers lead anvil and using a chisel and dog head hammer chisel in the teeth the same way files were cut. Here is a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XBmJrhoK1g

Of course then you have to wrap her up in something to prevent decarb, then harden, quench, and temper the blade......

[bridger berdel]

props for having a go at it! Im a bit confused as to why you added a chip breaker, the toothing planes I have are a single iron bevel down plane similar to a coffin smoother.

I'm planning a body like a coffin smoother. 60 degree bed, wedge under a crosspin. the chipbreaker may turn out to be unnecessary and/or in the way, but I'm looking for performance on squirrely woods and it'll need an open mouth, so i'll start with the breaker


I believe the traditional way to make the teeth was to anneal the blade, stick it on a filemakers lead anvil and using a chisel and dog head hammer chisel in the teeth the same way files were cut.

I annealed it, hammered and filed and stoned it flat, scraped the tooth layout crosswise on a hacksaw blade and cleaned up and deepened the grooves with a carbide lathe tool held in a hole in a chunk of wood. I'm sure that there are better ways of doing it, but this did work for me.



Here is a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XBmJrhoK1g

Of course then you have to wrap her up in something to prevent decarb, then harden, quench, and temper the blade......

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Bridger

You do not need a chipbreaker for a toothing blade to plane interlocked grain. The whole point of a toothing plane is that it resists tearout. The multiple narrow blades cuts multiple, separate grooves, each limiting the amount of wood the shaving can lift.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Joshua is correct: The teeth were made with a wide,hardened chisel,struck with a hammer like file cutters used. The chisel needs to be about 2" wide,and comes up to a narrow top surface in the center of the chisel. It looks like a rather tall pyramid. The narrow top surface helps insure that the force when struck,goes all the way across the cutting edge of the chisel. Your crosswise scraping of teeth with a FINE hacksaw should be o.k.. As long as reasonably fine teeth are made,what the heck! They don't have to be pretty,though you'd like them to be. Clever of you,though.

The skillful file cutter would cut the first groove,then rest the chisel on the burr at a backwards angle. Then,he'd straighten the chisel up and strike the next groove(file tooth). He would proceed up the file(or the toothing iron in this case),until he reached the other end. The coarseness,or fine ness of the file would be determined by how hard the tooth was struck,by how large a hammer. By resting the chisel on the last tooth cut,the file cutter would get the next tooth parallel to it.

I have seen unused 18th. C. files that were hand cut. They are not the most perfect files(depends upon the skill of the cutter). Some would say that they file better,because the slightly uneven teeth prevent harmonic chattering from setting in.

The quality control man from Nicholson file co. visited my shop in the 70's. He told me they had a bunch of Polish file cutters hand cutting their needle files. Those files WERE quite perfectly cut,too.

Nicholson tried to emulate the uneven cut of hand cut files in their triangular files,and possibly others,by varying the cutting pressure of their file cutting machines,to make a slightly wavy cut pattern,to reduce chattering.


You need to coat your toothing plane blade's teeth,to prevent their tips from decarbing,or getting burned slightly off,dulling them while hardening. They used a "batter".Indeed,it is like pancake batter,in the old days. It is a medium thick batter made of flour,a little yeast,and a little salt. Coat your teeth with this before heating. The batter will burn black and smell like burnt bread. There will be a layer of carbon left,which can stand the heat. This is easily brushed off after quenching. It leaves the teeth clean and gray colored,like a new file. I used this batter myself,when I made the numerous riffler files I have posted BAD pictures of here. I need to take better pictures now that I have a decent camera.

You can buy PBC No Scale from Brownell's Gunsmithing,and use it. I generally use the PBC as it does not smell up the shop. It also leaves a more even,clean gray surface than the flour mixture.

Stubbs used "beer leavings" to coat their files and other delicate surfaced tools,like screw plates,taps,etc.. Worn out mash,I suppose.

[Joshua Stevens]

George,
File making is another thing on my list for sure...Couple of questions, is the chisel used equally doouble beveled, or is there a different angle to each side of the bevels? Ive read about the dough mixture, some recipes have clay, sand, flour, even horse manure! I get that part, but what i dont see is how you can watch the color for heat treating with everything covered in dough? Ive also read that files were normally washed in acid, then a base after the quench, did you find this necessary or just straight from the hardening to brush off was sufficient?

[george wilson]

Single bevel on the chisel. You only cover the work while hardening it at high heat. Tempering is done with no coating.

I never found it necessary to use other than plain water to remove the flour. And,the Brownell's PVC No Scale practically flies off when quenched. Any remainder is easily wiped off.

I could have said naked,but I wouldn't want you to get confused and get arrested!!!:)

In the 18th. C.,French bakers worked naked due to the heat of the large brick ovens. I'd have done my OWN baking,thank you!! And,NOT naked.

[John Walkowiak]

"I'm planning a body like a coffin smoother. 60 degree bed"

I would encourage you to go steeper, like 87 degrees. The antique planes were made with beds almost vertical, the old guys had it figured out a couple hundred years ago.

[Steve Voigt]

I would encourage you to go steeper, like 87 degrees. The antique planes were made with beds almost vertical, the old guys had it figured out a couple hundred years ago.

Correct. These tools are closer to scrapers than planes.
As Derek pointed out, a chipbreaker would not be used; anyway it would damage the fragile back of the blade.
Toothing irons pop up regularly on ebay. Most are overpriced, but bargains do come up. I got a nice one some time ago for less than $20.
I wish you (the OP) the best, but if it doesn't work out you might want to do a little research. As John pointed out, the design of the toothing plane was figured out several centuries ago. Lots of information out there; Patrick Edward's blog and the Anthony Hay blog come to mind.

[bridger berdel]

I tried the blade bevel up in a 45* bedded plane. it has atm a bevel of some 25 or 30 degrees, so cutting at 70 or 75 degrees. it wasnt fettled to that plane body and I'm not planning to use it in that body, so I won't bother to fit it in right. it had uneven projection, cutting only on one side, but that side made nice little silly string shavings in some tangled grain alder. no tearout. alder isn't the most demanding wood, but so far I know it works without a chipbreaker at high angles. but that's not how I want to use it. I'm going to build it as a high angle coffin smoother, with a chipbreaker. if that turns out to be a bust I'll build a different body for it, perhaps ditching the breaker. if it turns out to be useful I might build a nicer version of the first body for it. I can't believe I'm the first person to try this. I'm not looking to build a veneer grounding toothed scraper plane, im trying to build a tearout proof pre-smoother.

[bridger berdel]

I see that veritas has a toothing blade for their bevel up smoother set up for 50* cutting angle. I think im not completely crazy.

[John Walkowiak]

I see that veritas has a toothing blade for their bevel up smoother set up for 50* cutting angle. I think im not completely crazy.

The LV and LN low angle planes, used with their toothing blades work very well. I have the LN low angle jack and it worked perfectly with the toothed blade. This plane was designed by Stanley to flatten endgrain butcher blocks. However, I have also recently tried a toothing blade in a wooden smooth plane that had a 45 degree bed. Yes, it did work, but it was a lot more effort than one at 87 degrees. My experience/tests showed me that the extremely low angle bevel up or the extremely high angles bevel down work best for a toothing blade. Angles in between will work, but will be a lot more effort and not as satisfactory a resulting surface.

But, give your idea a try, then you can decide for yourself. But you must also use one with the traditional configuration to adequately compare the 2.

[Derek Cohen]

I tried the blade bevel up in a 45* bedded plane. it has atm a bevel of some 25 or 30 degrees, so cutting at 70 or 75 degrees. it wasnt fettled to that plane body and I'm not planning to use it in that body, so I won't bother to fit it in right. it had uneven projection, cutting only on one side, but that side made nice little silly string shavings in some tangled grain alder. no tearout. alder isn't the most demanding wood, but so far I know it works without a chipbreaker at high angles. but that's not how I want to use it. I'm going to build it as a high angle coffin smoother, with a chipbreaker. if that turns out to be a bust I'll build a different body for it, perhaps ditching the breaker. if it turns out to be useful I might build a nicer version of the first body for it. I can't believe I'm the first person to try this. I'm not looking to build a veneer grounding toothed scraper plane, im trying to build a tearout proof pre-smoother.

ahem .. Bridger, a bevel down plane with a 45 degree bed with have a 45 degree cutting angle, regardless of the bevel angle. Only a bevel up plane will add the bevel angle to create an inclusive cutting angle of "70 or 75 degrees".

Toothing planes are built for two reasons: either for roughing up the surface before glueing veneer. These are typically the vertical-bladed planes one sees. The other reason is to act like a jack plane with interlocked grain, that is, to remove waste before smoothing in timber that is vulnerable to tearout. This is the reason for the LV and LN versions that plane at about 50 degrees.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[bridger berdel]

I see that LN has a toothing blade to fit the bailey pattern bench planes. maybe I'll spring for one of those one of these days.
I'd also like to have a go with a more scraper-like configuration.

anyone here know what is the best cheapest bottom feeder source for toothed plane blades?




The LV and LN low angle planes, used with their toothing blades work very well. I have the LN low angle jack and it worked perfectly with the toothed blade. This plane was designed by Stanley to flatten endgrain butcher blocks. However, I have also recently tried a toothing blade in a wooden smooth plane that had a 45 degree bed. Yes, it did work, but it was a lot more effort than one at 87 degrees. My experience/tests showed me that the extremely low angle bevel up or the extremely high angles bevel down work best for a toothing blade. Angles in between will work, but will be a lot more effort and not as satisfactory a resulting surface.

But, give your idea a try, then you can decide for yourself. But you must also use one with the traditional configuration to adequately compare the 2.

[Kees Heiden]

Kunz has ae cheap toothing blade, but I don't know if they are available in the US.

[bridger berdel]

derek-
I put it in the 45 degree plane bevel up. just a quick test.

I chose 60 degrees because it seemed like about the highest angle at which the chipbreaker could be made to work. this plane will be closer to the jack plane and less like the veneering scraper. im actually hoping to get it to behave like a toothed smoother plane.



ahem .. Bridger, a bevel down plane with a 45 degree bed with have a 45 degree cutting angle, regardless of the bevel angle. Only a bevel up plane will add the bevel angle to create an inclusive cutting angle of "70 or 75 degrees".

Toothing planes are built for two reasons: either for roughing up the surface before glueing veneer. These are typically the vertical-bladed planes one sees. The other reason is to act like a jack plane with interlocked grain, that is, to remove waste before smoothing in timber that is vulnerable to tearout. This is the reason for the LV and LN versions that plane at about 50 degrees.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

I don't know if a chipbreaker can do anything usefull in a toothing plane, other then adding some support and promoting clogged shavings.

[george wilson]

The chip breaker is useless in a toothing plane. The chip breaker cannot fit into the valleys between the teeth anyway. This would result in stringy little chips from the teeth getting under the chip breaker and clogging it all up.

Those substitute toothed irons for modern planes are just stop gap measures to have a toothed iron in a modern plane. Look at old,original toothing planes. Their irons are nearly vertical,as you have been advised by some others here. Add a chip breaker at your own peril.

[bridger berdel]

some progress.
291276

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291278

some stringy shaving pics tomorrow

[bridger berdel]

291300

291301

seems to be working as desired. it took having a pretty big open mouth to avoid choking, but now I can set the chipbreaker close, get fluffy silly string shavings and plane snarly grain crotch walnut with no tearout leaving a pretty smooth surface.

[bridger berdel]

I understand that chipbreakers have no historical precedent in toothed planes. so far the one I built is planing fine with a chipbreaker. no shavings getting under it. I don't know if this plane would perform better with a straight blade, or without the chipbreaker, but I do know that at the moment it is indeed behaving like a toothed smooth plane, not a toothed jack or a toothed scraper. this may have something to do with the thick iron (something over 1/4" thick) or the thick chipbreaker (1/4" thick) or the cutting angle (60 degrees minus the blade taper). but, it is indeed working.



The chip breaker is useless in a toothing plane. The chip breaker cannot fit into the valleys between the teeth anyway. This would result in stringy little chips from the teeth getting under the chip breaker and clogging it all up.

Those substitute toothed irons for modern planes are just stop gap measures to have a toothed iron in a modern plane. Look at old,original toothing planes. Their irons are nearly vertical,as you have been advised by some others here. Add a chip breaker at your own peril.

[george wilson]

How close to the cutting edge are you setting the chip breaker?

[bridger berdel]

if I set it around 1/64" it behaves like a smoother. if I set it way back, rank cut and scrub away I can get it to tearout. either way no problem with chips under the chipbreaker. it's still tending to choke the mouth though.




How close to the cutting edge are you setting the chip breaker?

[Kees Heiden]

That's interesting! These damned fangle chipbreakers are wonderfull things aren't they? Can even cope with toothed blades...
But I guess you won't get tearout with the CB set back and a somewhat thinner shaving, either. That's what toothing planes are all about, at least that's what they tell us.

[george wilson]

You are getting away without chips getting under the chip breaker because you are setting the chip breaker far enough back from the "cutting edge" to avoid them doing so. It has no possible function with toothed blades.

I can't tell from the pictures if you actually got the grooves cut deep enough to have made a proper toothing iron. I can't see a serrated edge in the closeup of your beveled iron.

Excellent post,Kees! Those chip breakers are magical. They can even get down into the grooves between the teeth and prevent clogging.

[Derek Cohen]

You are getting away without chips getting under the chip breaker because you are setting the chip breaker far enough back from the "cutting edge" to avoid them doing so. It has no possible function with toothed blades.

Excellent post,Kees! Those chip breakers are magical. They can even get down into the grooves between the teeth and prevent clogging. I don't know why I bother to give advice sometimes.

Absolutely, George ... on ALL points!

Bridger, if your plane is acting like a smoother, then the teeth are not working as they should. If the plane is causing tearout, then the teeth are not working as they should. If the mouth is choking, then the teeth are not working as they should. There is a pattern here. Sorry.

The shavings from a toothing plane should look like finely shredded parmesan. Or any hard cheese of your choice :) The result is more like skinny worms than ribbons. Turn over the plane and the "worms" should pour out the escapement. Is your plane creating "shavings" like these?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[bridger berdel]

I think that the chipbreaker limits the depth of cut to a few thousandths. the shavings are the width of the teeth, but more wispy than stringy. cross planed shavings are like fluffy dust. these teeth are flat topped rather than peaked like teeth cut with a chisel. so in a way what I have is a bunch of really narrow smooth plane blades ganged together. whatever. it does work, at least on the squirrely grain I have thrown at it so far.it leaves very shallow, flat bottomed grooves that look like they will be pretty easy to get to a smooth finish from.

[bridger berdel]

in the interest of having something to compare my homebrew toothing plane to, I hunted a bit on ebay and found this:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/141314919389> (http://www.ebay.com/itm/141314919389)

got it today.

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did the minimum cleanup, sharpened the blade and gave it a try. I think I'll have to work with it a bit to get any meaningful results.

[Winton Applegate]

Over all a fun thread that I have enjoyed.

The acid bath mentioned earlier was not so much to remove the chared “batter” as it was to disolve the edges of the file teeth to sharpen them.

I messed around with toothing blades for a while.
I found , for the super hard stuff, for scrubbing/getting the surface down to near flat I could not take off as much depth as I thought I would be able to. Wetting the surface helped there.

As far as tear out I had already conquered that demon, broke that “impossible” sound barrier . . . by first steepening/back beveling my scrub plane blade and then using cambered bevel up with steep geometry (very sharp with FLAT facets) and still wetting the surface when I really want to go to town and take off a lot of depth on the gnarly stuff.

So for purely tear out elimination I had no use for toothed blades.
I was hoping for heavier cuts in very hard wood with a wider blade for stock removal.

In the end I decided the only use I would have for a toothed blade is possibly for roughening a surface for veneering. I question the usefulness of that AS LONG AS THE GLUE SURFACES ARE FRESH PLANED to eliminate surface tension repulsing wetting of the surface by the glue. What little THICK bandsaw cut veneer I have applied, even on purple heart . . . you know . . . one of those “Hard To Glue Oily Exotics” . . .
no adhesion problems.


I don't know if a chipbreaker can do anything usefull in a toothing plane
or in any other plane in my opinion


The chip breaker is useless in . . .

no “in” . . . just useless.


These damned fangle chipbreakers are wonderfull things aren't they? Can even cope with toothed blades.

It would have never occurred to me to combine the word “Wonderful” and “chipreaker” in the same sentence. Is this some form of new abstract prose ?

Juxtaposing so far unimaginable word combinations for the sake of art ?
Kind of a Picasso esk sort of view. I never could look at a Picasso very long. Gives me the heeby jeebies. True Art though. No question about that.
:p