Nice video about Larry Williams

[Kees Heiden]

Hey, I liked it. http://wisdomofhands.blogspot.nl/2014/05/hand-planes-and-more.html

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks for the link Kees.

Excellent viewing. I wish Larry (and Don) all the very best.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Graham Haydon]

Thanks Kees, a nice snippet into Larry's world.

[george wilson]

Of course,we made the great bulk of planes used in the museum. I saw nice molding planes and hollows and rounds that Larry made in the cabinet shop. We were glad to get some outside help at the time,since Jon and I were tasked with making every tool you can think of for the entire Historic Trades Department. Plus special executive gifts for visiting heads of states,and retiring high ranking administrative personnel.

It was too much for just 2 guys.

[David Weaver]

Presume you and jon made all or most of the bench planes that were used in the museum, as well as the saws?

[Steve Voigt]

Great video, thanks for posting Kees! Larry and Don are awesome. I wonder if anyone would be making traditional wooden planes today if it weren't for those guys.

[george wilson]

We did make the bench planes used in all the Historic Area shops. Some special molding planes,and the cooper's jointers also. Saws too. And many other tools.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Thanks Kees, that was fun.

[David Weaver]

When Larry says no improvements until they came along (can't remember what he said exactly), I'd hope he's not talking about the bench planes.

We're aware of a significant improvement between the common single iron bench planes and what's generally available today!!

[Kees Heiden]

He might have one or two curious opinions ;), but overall I think the guy has done great work.

[george wilson]

I have made a few posts here,but I have deleted them,and modified them,because no doubt someone will be offended.

David,he said to the effect that the 18th. C. planes were the most sophisticated planes ever invented. But,he still uses single irons only. Double irons were in use by then,even advertised in a Philadelphia ad in the 1780's IIRC.

[David Weaver]

He might have one or two curious opinions ;), but overall I think the guy has done great work.

Larry might not agree with this, but the best thing he's done to date is release the DVD that shows the rest of us how to make an excellent plane on the first try. I don't mean that to minimize his planes, I mean that DVD really does have immense value beyond anything else out there to someone who wants to make side escapement planes without any trial and error.

The only unfortunate thing being how difficult it is to find good dry truly quartersawn beech.

[Winton Applegate]

Thanks for the reminder ! ! ! !

I wasn't ready to buy when his plane making video(s) came out and I have no intention of making, or in my case attempting to make, great planes; but I am starving for a top shelf woodworking DVD.

I been keeping my eye on the Ian Kirby set but $80 bucks for three DVDs and I hear they are slow going and repetitive, is a bit rich for me.

The Old Street Tools plane DVD(s) might just be the ticket I been looking for. I will more than likely find I can apply the knowledge gained to other work I do as well.


He might have one or two curious opinions

Yah back in the day I used to argue with him (on FWW) until the cows came home, (or the woodworkers WENT home). How ever you want to look at it.

That was before I knew who the heck he is.
Ha, ha,
I think we both made quite an ass of our selves.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh good times . . .
I miss those days.

Ha, ha, ha,
I might be found on his side arguing for single iron planes.
As long as they are bedded (angled) for the wood being worked.


advertised

So they weren’t good enough to sell them selves by word of mouth.
A new twist to generate sales perhaps ?

OK, ok
I couldn’t resist.


unfortunate thing being how difficult it is to find good dry truly quartersawn [wood]

Yep I hate shakes. What little plane making I have done makes me appreciate the problem of finding the good big stuff.

[David Weaver]

Unless something has changed, the DVDs only cover side escapement planes. If you want to build bench planes, finding one that works right is the best way to go about it, then you can have that plane handy when you're laying yours out or want to see where lines intersect, etc.

That's assuming you can find wood worthy of a bench plane. That's a challenge. Strange thing with maple is there are GOBS of turning blanks for table legs that are 3x3. It's just not big enough to make anything other than a plane with a 2" iron, when all of the large vintage planes I have come across have been in the 2 1/2 inch range.

Beech....good luck. Find a beech tree, I guess and wait 4 years.

But if you ever intend to cut a moulding, the side escapement DVD is worth the cost. Figure if you ever decide to unload it, you won't be out much money.

Never did see a tutorial that really told what I'd want to know about coffin smoothers with double irons, and by that I mean one that tells you just how to make one so that will feed fat and full width thin shavings, iron set close or not. Not many planes come able to do that, even the vintage planes often have some differential shrinkage issues that keep the wedge from allowing it, even if they were properly made.

[Winton Applegate]

Notice the style of work bench he is using !

(heck . . . I can't argue with him about that)

[Warren Mickley]

Great video, thanks for posting Kees! Larry and Don are awesome. I wonder if anyone would be making traditional wooden planes today if it weren't for those guys.

I made my first wooden planes in 1975. The double iron jack plane I made in 1978 was copied from an 18th century Dominy plane, and is the only jack plane I have used since then. I knew other guys who were making traditional planes at that time as well.

[george wilson]

I was making decent planes as far back as the late 50's. Not manufacturing them,though.

[David Weaver]

I was making decent planes as far back as the late 50's. Not manufacturing them,though.

I'm sure if larry didn't sell moulding planes to CW, you would've been tasked with it. Maybe not something you'd have wanted to do in large numbers, either.

I went and rewatched the video and thought that it was a bit on the overconfident side to state that no other plane so sophisticated has been made since the 1700s. Larry would not like to hear it, but none of his planes are the equal of the try plane that i showed on here that was made by an english maker, and it's had probably 125 years or more to show its age and has chosen not to.

Maybe he just meant the moulding planes, though, who knows?

[george wilson]

No,like I mentioned,we had way too many tasks to do already. I was happy to not have to make hollows and rounds and molding planes. Too many other nice things to make.

If I had to make them,though,I'd have planed their soles with an original set of hollows and rounds I have.

It is good that someone is making them,though. We need someone doing it. And,someone making saws and other good,period tools,too.

[Jim Matthews]

Beech....good luck. Find a beech tree, I guess and wait 4 years.

I've come across two American Beech trees, free to anyone that could manage them.
The first had a long straight run of 38 feet, 42" in diameter below the first limb.

It was too large for me to section with my 20" bar.

The arborist that eventually claimed it found the center had a conical void that extended from the base
to 35' - just below where I was cutting. It was essentially useless - even for firewood.

In nearby Newport, RI five ancient Beeches were culled for shedding limbs,
some of the solid material was hauled to the town yard, for eventual disposition in the landfill.

Not a straight section in any of them - they were twisted, riddled with nails and completely waterlogged.

My guess is that the first plane makers had old growth trees that came up under a canopy.

These two trees spent their lives out in the open and offer little in the way of choice billets.

You may need to weight more than 4 years...

[Warren Mickley]

I have a cabinetmaker friend whom I do work for, carving and turning. I occasionally make make beech handles for him, chisels and carving tools. One Friday afternoon he brought me some tools and I asked if he had any beech himself; I was low on the kind of scraps I use for handles. Monday morning he called me up to say he had bought a beech log Saturday morning and had it quarter sawn for me and I could come pick it up. Not a knot in the pile.

Beech has a fungal disease which decreased the supply, but there is still much more beech around than there is demand.

[george wilson]

According to one member,there are large,solid beech trees in West Va.. But,out here in the East,every large beech tree seems to have gone quite hollow in the center. We cut 5000 bd. ft. of beech when I was first toolmaker. The maximum size logs we used were about 18" in diameter,or a bit less.

[David Weaver]

It's reasons like that that I'd want beech from a timber stand somewhere in southern Ohio (which is where the beech I picked up came from) for those reasons (cut before it was near dead and riddled with bugs, and cut from a wooded low population area. Haven't seen any trees around here like that, other than oaks I guess, even though it's not far away.

Also haven't seen anyone selling it who is letting it air dry. IIRC, the attempts my lumber guy had at kiln drying big billets weren't that successful, at least not the ones that were sold to the general public. Shipping something like that makes it more sensible to just buy complete planes, anyway.

[David Weaver]

According to one member,there are large,solid beech trees in West Va.. But,out here in the East,every large beech tree seems to have gone quite hollow in the center. We cut 5000 bd. ft. of beech when I was first toolmaker. The maximum size logs we used were about 18" in diameter,or a bit less.

Beech trees solid to the base in southern ohio at double that diameter or more aren't uncommon. It's just, as warren says, nobody seems to want them. I can't think of a real use for them other than as furniture frames and hand tools. And we know that not much upholstered furniture is made here anymore. When I mentioned Beech to hearne when I was there Christmas Eve one year (when he's the only person in the store), he wrinkled his nose and said "utility wood", and said the euros dumped beech on the US market and ruined it at some point in the past. There must've been a coordinated "wood poop" by the euro countries, because I've seen other people mention that they got an enormous pile of beech wood from europe for almost nothing - stu tierney comes to mind.

[John Walkowiak]

Larry and Don have been getting their beech from my friends at Horizon Wood Products. I am sure they will be happy to send some out if anyone wants to give plane making a try. Here is a link to their website.
http://www.horizonevolutions.com/

[David Weaver]

But,out here in the East,every large beech tree seems to have gone quite hollow in the center. We cut 5000 bd. ft. of beech when I was first toolmaker. The maximum size logs we used were about 18" in diameter,or a bit less.

Some of the stuff on youtube being sawn looks to have fungal problems, almost like a standing spalt, which is too bad. But I guess it's also a matter of most of it wouldn't be used for anything but firewood, anyway. Those of us who'd like to have large billets to use are a tiny market, and the economics (what we're willing to pay for it) isn't going to get most people off the couch.

[george wilson]

I looked on the Horizon site,and saw no listing of beech. Something you have to call them about? Do you know them,David?

[David Weaver]

I never called horizon, just because Mike Digity always sold me 8/4 and 5/4 pretty cheap and, well, his van showed up at my garage door - no charge - when I made an order.

Horizon has generally been out of my price range for this area otherwise, though their pictures of stock do look really nice. There are a few local guys (one man millers) here who will sell the same kind of stuff if you take the time to work with them, closer by and for less.

I don't know how much beech matt, larry and don got from Mike, but I know they bought from him, too. Horizon may be more picky about cosmetics of the lumber, though. I'd be curious to know what they thought of mike's stock. I've gotten a board or two from mike that I didn't want to use for planes, but of all of the orders I made from mike, I paid less than $5 a bd. foot for QS stock (keeping in mind some of that I got from him as he was liquidating). All total, only about 75 board feet in all of those orders maybe. Enough for me to not ever have to buy any more for saw handles, moulding planes, other tools, etc, but not enough at this point for me to unload any.

Horizon is up in Tony Zaffuto's direction - fairly far from here. He might know more about their stock in person, the sequential stuff does look pretty nice.

[Derek Cohen]

What other woods in the USA and Europe were considered "ideal" for plane making. For what reason is Beech a preferred choice? Are there better choices? To date, I have simply considered Beech to be a compromise of availability, cost, and integrity, and not necessarily the only choice for premium planes. In Australia, most vintage planes originated in the UK, where they were made of Beech. Modern woodies, however, are made of many local woods - HNT Gordon offers a wide variety of exotic local species, all hard and stable.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Wilkins]

I know Matt Bickford uses Cherry primarily for his planes. Phil Edwards uses beech but also Goncalo.

[Steve Voigt]

What other woods in the USA and Europe were considered "ideal" for plane making. For what reason is Beech a preferred choice? Are there better choices? To date, I have simply considered Beech to be a compromise of availability, cost, and integrity, and not necessarily the only choice for premium planes. In Australia, most vintage planes originated in the UK, where they were made of Beech. Modern woodies, however, are made of many local woods - HNT Gordon offers a wide variety of exotic local species, all hard and stable.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek,
In the US, yellow birch was preferred by the earliest planemakers. I had a book from the library on 18th c. woodworking, published by colonial Williamsburg (maybe George knows this book?), that said the main reason for switching to beech was rapid depletion of yellow birch stock.
Apple was also used by early planemakers.
As far as "why beech?" goes, this article (http://planemaker.com/articles_beech.html) by Larry offers a number of answers. It's definitely worth a read if you haven't seen it before.

- Steve

[David Weaver]

What other woods in the USA and Europe were considered "ideal" for plane making. For what reason is Beech a preferred choice? Are there better choices? To date, I have simply considered Beech to be a compromise of availability, cost, and integrity, and not necessarily the only choice for premium planes. In Australia, most vintage planes originated in the UK, where they were made of Beech. Modern woodies, however, are made of many local woods - HNT Gordon offers a wide variety of exotic local species, all hard and stable.

Regards from Perth

Derek

It's difficult to explain until you make a plane out of properly oriented beech or apple by hand. It's a good density for hand planes (lighter woods are not in my opinion), it's not splintery, it behaves like it's made to be worked in any direction and it wears pretty well. Apple of any good type air dried is pretty much impossible to find here. Beech can still be found, but it seems like it's never marketed anymore - Mike Digity is the last person I saw actually marketing QS beech. Even kiln dried, beech is nice to work. I haven't liked apple as much K/D, but it's tough to tell what apple actually is - I have a feeling that the A/D apple that I've liked probably isn't the same type of base tree as the K/D apple that I haven't liked (that's been much drier and stringier feeling, where as the apple I've liked cannot be splintered no matter what you do with it - even rasping right back up into the grain.)

I never used birch, though someone sold me what was supposed to be black birch, once it was dry it was FAR too light to be black birch. Anyway, making a plane or two out of american beech immediately makes you a big fan of it. It must be quartersawn, though, and the straighter it's sawn in terms of vertical grain lines running right down the board (instead of running out) the better. Anything less than that will move some, but not too much once it settles in your shop.

I don't know of anything else like those two (beech and apple).

I haven't read larry's write up in a long while, but I remember it being full of a very technical argument, something I'm not that interested in. Just like I've got zero interest in using terms like beam strength, etc. To me, making a plane out of beech is like making a cheeseburger out of beef. Cherry is like a veggie burger (it's too light and leaves you feeling unfulfilled), hard maple is like a turkey burger (it's OK, just not quite right) and the more expensive stuff is like substituting veal (it's nice, but it doesn't make me feel any better than beef when you're looking for something to fulfill a need).

[Kees Heiden]

The French made a lot of planes from wood from the Sericetree (Cormier). It is a heavy and hard kind of wood, ideal for planes, but also ideal for woodworms, they like it very much.
The Germans made planes from Hornbeam (Steinbuche), which is harder then beech. Later when the large hornbeam trees became rare, they used it for the soles of planes.
In England they also made a lot of planes from boxwood, always as a more expensive choice.
In the Swiss video about the planemakers Raggenbas, they use the french wood Cormier with a Bubinga sole.
Of course the Japanes have their oak, I think it is a bit similar to live oak?
And in China, they had all kinds of rosewoods for plane making.

So, that gives a few options. Didn't the Aussies have a plane making tradition?

[Warren Mickley]

Steve, you are thinking of Jay Gaynor's "Tools" book published in 1993. He mentions that yellow birch was used in New England in colonial days. Here in Pennsylvania yellow birch is rare or absent in the counties surrounding Philadelphia, and as one goes south it is generally confined to the mountainous areas. Most planes made in Philadelphia were beech. The Nathaniel Dominy IV working on Long Island made planes out of beech, yellow birch, and a few others for his own use.

Ted Ingraham of Vermont, who was making and selling planes long before Clark and Williams, likes to make moulding planes from yellow birch. You may have seen the recent video of Ted making sash. He gives a really fine demonstration of traditional planemaking techniques.

As to why beech I would say ease of manufacture is a big reason, but the thing I like about beech is the wedging action. For somebody using these planes daily the ease of adjustment, in and out, and in small increments, and reliably is the overwhelming factor which puts beech at the top.

[David Weaver]

Along with the wedging action is the lack of musical quality or bounce. It doesn't resist what you do with it on adjustments or spring your progress back, and as you say, it works fine in small increments whereas some harder or more musical and bouncy woods tend to like adjustment as all or none.

But academic discussions of it aren't what really sells it to a user, but instead all of the subtle things in use do (and the fact that it's a nice makers wood that takes chisel and plane work smoothly and without chipping out or having large pores are also nice).

[Steve Voigt]

Steve, you are thinking of Jay Gaynor's "Tools" book published in 1993. He mentions that yellow birch was used in New England in colonial days. Here in Pennsylvania yellow birch is rare or absent in the counties surrounding Philadelphia, and as one goes south it is generally confined to the mountainous areas. Most planes made in Philadelphia were beech.

Thanks for that reference, Warren. Do you know, is "flame birch" a designation for figured pieces of yellow birch, or is it some other?


The Nathaniel Dominy IV working on Long Island made planes out of beech, yellow birch, and a few others for his own use.


I've read "with hammer in hand" many times (I'm sure I'm the only person who's ever checked it out from the local library), and I noticed that the Dominys made planes from a lot of different woods: maple, oak, even mahogany, if I remember right.
I thumbed through a volume on plow planes recently, and was struck by how many of the user-made planes were also of non-standard planemaking woods. It reminded me that while beech is king for commercial planemaking, users made planes out of what they could find. And they still do.

[Warren Mickley]

Yes flame birch is figured yellow birch. The figure is a very coarse and irregular curl. Some furniture makers like it for reproductions and you see it sometimes on 18th century New England chests, but not the highest quality. The figure is nice, but the wood lacks the depth and liveliness of first rate woods like curly maple, mahogany, walnut, cherry and the like.

Yellow birch has a shiny silver colored bark with a little yellow tinge to it and a little bit peely in narrow strips. Sweet birch, Betula lenta, has a wood of similar texture and density but the heartwood is brown to reddish maroon and the bark is black like cherry. The other birches are lighter and weaker woods.

[Pat Barry]

Hey, I liked it. http://wisdomofhands.blogspot.nl/2014/05/hand-planes-and-more.html
Excellent video. Thanks Kees!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I've never worked beech, but I've worked a lot of yellow birch, and it does remind of the things that Dave says he likes about beech although not quite there - I've been thinking of making some planes out of yellow birch mostly because I can get it locally pretty easily for a decent price, where-as beech is seldom found. (I should have jumped on Mike's stuff when he was selling on eBay - given the way I've been working lately, even if it was sopping wet, it'd probably be ready to use by the time I get my lazy butt around to doing anything) The only issue, as always, is finding it quarter sawn, or something I can appropriate QS pieces out of.

[Dave Anderson NH]

There are certainly plenty of both beech and birch trees of all types here in NH. I have a couple of large beech trees in my yard. The lack of availability is due to a couple of factors. First, there is little demand and it doesn't have any special characteristics that make it attractive for making furniture, the primary market for commercial production. Secondly, and even more important is that it is a very difficult wood to dry in commercial quantities and the different kiln schedule means it pretty much has to go in alone. This is not attractive for a commercial mill when you might put 3000 bdft into a steam kiln designed for 25-30,000 bdft. This causes a much higher cost per bdft for production with a very unsure market for the result. During drying it wants to warp, twist, check, and worse, if you are not careful, it case hardens.

I took one down in my yard about 2 years ago 26" DBH with about 16 feet of bole to the first limb. Burned real nice after drying.

[Kees Heiden]

First, there is little demand and it doesn't have any special characteristics that make it attractive for making furniture, the primary market for commercial production.

Ouch, don't say that in Denmark!

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[george wilson]

I have seen an awful lot of cheaper English antiques made of beech.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I know that it is heavily used in Europe, but it is a different beech. I suspect that it behaves better during handling and kiln drying than American Beech. Europe also doesn't have as many choices of nice native lumber as we do and what they do have is in limited supply. I'd love to hear some of our UK and mainland Europe members talk about availability and pricing of their cabinet woods.

[Kees Heiden]

In The Netherlands, I guess that oak and pine are the main furniture woods. The oak is good stuff, but the pine is often riddled with knots. I've got nothing against a few knots, but the usual stuff you can buy has them every foot or so. Other furniture woods are wallnut, a local variation which is quite nice, elm, european maple which is rather soft and of course lots of beech. The whole scandinavian furniture movement was all about clean lines and very white kinds of wood. Beech fitted very well in that concept, better then the usual oak. The picture of the chairs above is from Kaare Klint.

Some wholesaler prices, per square meter in euro:
Oak 1200 - 1800
Beech 1000 - 1400
Maple 800 - 1400
Elm 1500
Pine 800 - 1000
Wallnut 2000 - 3000

This is just one example of course, prices are all over the map.

[Mark Almeidus]

In the Balkans, primary wood for furniture and other stuff(cutting boards, decorative things etc) is beech. For firewood, oak and beech are the most that are used. My granddad is using oak and we are using beech.
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This is the oak used for firewood, considered as first class.

For woodworking pine is also the most used, but as Kees said they are full of knots, rarely u can find pine without knots, and they are considered more valuable here.
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This is a piece of pine without knots, used for something in my house long time ago. Dont know whats best to do with it.
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Meditation bench i made for my mother, from same piece.



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This pine i bought for 2 euros, 8 pieces and 1 metter long each.
Here is an example of what type of wood is my house build almost 30 years ago. to have a rough idea.

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Doors at the balcony from pine
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Roof of the balcony from pine with lots of knots xd
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2 doors from oak, I think the stairs are from chestnut, but not 100% sure
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beech floor


When i was making the sole of my plane, that is from beech (probably 15 years old that i found in my house) its was the hardest to plane from all woods i have tried (pine, oak, mapple, accacia, ashe etc). It was like i was planing a rock, and i couldnt managed to make a full shaving. When i was in the industrial zone in my town, the guy said they are using a technique to make the beeck wood more stronger. Dont know the word in english, but its something like boiling or cooking :D .Accacia or black locust is also hard but its the most frustrating to plane on. I always get tearout no matter what. Once the tearout starts, its like a chane, it follows longer and deeper, while on beech its the oposite, cant get tearout at all. Also we have chestnut in decent amount wich is also considered high quality wood. But beech dominates here because of huge quantities in the mountains.

[Graham Haydon]

Euro Oak is popular, about $1322m3 > $3014m3 depending on thickness or quality. American White is a little cheaper but not so nice to work as a general rule.

Euro Redwood (our EWP or SYP) is around $669m3. For clean stuff with no knots you can only really buy 1" "Un Sorted". As Kees says, the rest of it can be a gamble.

Beech is about about a third less than oak. Most of our demand on that is for kitchen drawers.

If Ash is needed it's nearly always American White.

We made a Library out of American Black Walnut when I started work 15yrs ago but have not used it much since.

[Niels Cosman]

Phenomenal video! Thanks for sharing!


Hey, I liked it. http://wisdomofhands.blogspot.nl/2014/05/hand-planes-and-more.html