Course water stone.

[Darren Brown]

I need a recommendation for a course water stone. I use a combination 1000/8000 stone for sharpening but if I need to do major edge repair or flattening I have to resort to a DMT Duosharp diamond plate and it works for crap. I have no grinder and would like to get a course water stone to replace the DMT. It needs to be a stone as I don't care for sandpaper and surface plates and stones are easily stored and used in my apartment. Thanks in advance.

Darren

[Matthew N. Masail]

I plan of getting this one http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_587_591&products_id=1982


I have used:
king 300 - too hard too slow
Cerax 320 - nice speed but too soft and messy

You said you don't like sandpaper, have you tried GOOD psa backed 80 grit paper? it's very capable.

[Winton Applegate]

Well, let me say this about that :

You can get an extra inexpensive coarse stone from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004URPVNK/ref=oh_details_o08_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) for a little of nothing for dulling the edges of ceramic tile work etc. 80 grit or so.
This one is out of stock but you get the idea.
I bought one of those; see photo in the fore ground.
It is only OK but will get you going.

Much better is to shell out for a Shapton 120 (http://www.amazon.com/Shapton-White-Professional-Series-Waterstone/dp/B008NPSDAI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1401583460&sr=8-1&keywords=shapton+120). In the back ground of photo. It cuts faster and is harder than the cheepy. I am glad I bought it and am very happy with it.
I bought from this guy (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0P0000.htm) but he seems to no longer stock the 120.
Still though for flattening backs it is going to take some serious work. I use it for grinding back main bevels.

PS: I agree with Matthew. And good belt sander grade Blue Norton is very capable. Can get at Home Depot in say a 3" x 21" belt. Glue it down. Good for back flattening.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Newstonesoldfiles_zps5a0d01c6.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Newstonesoldfiles_zps5a0d01c6.jpg.html)

[Tony Wilkins]

Stu has the one that Winton was suggesting: http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_402&products_id=670

I can't comment as I've been casually shopping for one and using my Atoma diamond plate in a a pinch.

That said, I'm becoming a fan of the Sueihiro dual stones: http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_620_622&products_id=2092 I have the drum set with the 1,000 and 6,000 and I've been very pleased with them (considering that set is small).

[David Weaver]

There's no good coarse stone for flattening, unless you're talking about not much flattening. Coarse stones are good for bevel work, but you'll have to use a belt grinder, diamonds on a base or stick-down paper.

[Darren Brown]

It would be for "not much flattening". Mostly for bevel work. I guess my question is, say you have a chisel with a nick in it, and you want to grind it back past the nick, or adjust the bevel, and you you need to go directly from the as yet unidentified course stone directly to a 1000 grit stone. What stone would you pick? Can you go straight from a Shapton 120 grit stone to 1000? Seems like quite a jump to me, but I don't know from experience so I need some guidance here. Thanks.

[David Weaver]

Yes, you can go straight from one to the next in a gap that large.

The norton crystolon stones are hard to beat for coarse work, but they are oilstones. They are good enough, in my opinion (and cheap enough) that I'd clean the oil off of a tool in the rare instance that they're needed.

In an oilstone progression with no grinder, they'd get used more often.

If you're using a guide, though, they're less ideal, but that comes back to the original issue that stones below a certain grit level are fighting too many limitations (they need to shed grit but nobody likes a stone that doesn't stay flat, etc).

[Jim Koepke]

It would be for "not much flattening". Mostly for bevel work. I guess my question is, say you have a chisel with a nick in it, and you want to grind it back past the nick, or adjust the bevel, and you you need to go directly from the as yet unidentified course stone directly to a 1000 grit stone. What stone would you pick? Can you go straight from a Shapton 120 grit stone to 1000? Seems like quite a jump to me, but I don't know from experience so I need some guidance here. Thanks.

My best stone for this kind of work is a 4' long hunk of granite with PSA backed 80 grit abrasive paper.

It is good for back flattening, nick removal and most light metal shaping tasks. A magnet wrapped in paper is kept close by.

jtk

[Curt Putnam]

I just bought and have used on a vintage chisel - the 100 grit DMT diamond stone. In its still new state, it cuts about like 80 grit sandpaper. I'm a great believer in power for the coarse stuff, but hand or power I also believe in small jumps at the coarse end right up to about 400 grit. Jumping from 80-120 straight to 1000 means that you are going to spend a very long time rubbing steel on the 1K stone to get rid of all the scratches. When I have to do such work I basically go 80, 150, 320, 600, 1200.

Get whatever stone you want and then go straight to the 1K stone. If the pain level is not too much then great, you're done. If it is too much pain then you can get an intermediate stone(s.)

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

You mention looking for a coarse stone because you don't have a grinder; is this because you don't *want* a grinder? You can get a serviceable grinder for 80 bucks, and while it won't help with back flattening, I find it quite a useful thing to have now that I have one, and it cost less than some waterstones. Just throwing it out there - I know it wasn't your question, but it might be worth thinking about.

I've also got a coarse crystolon, like David mentions, and it's been quite handy at times. I used it to reshape the bevels on a drawknife (until I figured out how to get it on the grinder)

[David Weaver]

I think the medium crystolon is also a nice stone. It's still very coarse and fast, and not so coarse that it's rasping on really hard steel.

[Winton Applegate]

Yah, the older I get the smaller the jumps.
:D

I think we need to clarify here for the OP.

I suspect David would do it but his typing fingers are worn to the bones from saying it.

First we are talking geeeeter done woodworking tools here. Spend a little get a lot (most all ) of the performance.

When I bang away about all the grits I use I am thinking along the lines of a jewelry quality finish on metal and WHAT I LIKE to look at.

and of course I think we will all agree going from 80 or 120 grit to 1000 for BACK POLISHING is exactly as you say a long time fatigue work out.

Practically speaking and just talking about the bevel now :

run the main bevel on the super coarse stone.
tilt the blade up a couple three degrees, how ever floats your plane blade (free hand or jig), and then go on the 1000
if you have taken the coarse stone to the edge of the bevel and there is now no wear bevel left then an extremely small hair line of a bevel for the secondary bevel will get you down quickly to a 1000 grt hone and ready to do the same on your finer stones for the final "polish".


Now that main bevel is going to look pretty un pretty but the blade is going to cut fine.

The back is another story but you will only have to do it once so maybe a few grits of stickum paper just for backs.

[Jay Park]

The best coarse grinding stones I've used are diamond stone.

The ATOMA-140 (http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/ATOMA-140x-sharpening-stone-plate-p/ato140.htm) or the DMT Diasharp D8XX (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/T!D8.htm). They're much better than water stones as they don't wear and create dishing problems. Also they cut the fastest.

The Atoma cuts faster by my DMT D8xx has served me for 7 years, so won't be making a switch soon.

An added benefit of the diamond stones is you can use them to sharpen water stones.

The con of diamond stones, besides the mess of steel shavings is that you really need a good coarse waterstone to get the scratches out from the diamond stones.

After grinding on my DMT I grab a Beston 500 (http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/Beston-500x-sharpening-stone-p/bstn500.htm). A cuts faster than the Shapton Pro coarse stones but require a 30min soak and needs a lot of water during sharpening.

Jay

[Tony Wilkins]

I believe the OP mentioned living in an apartment and not having space for an grinder.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I need a recommendation for a course water stone. I use a combination 1000/8000 stone for sharpening but if I need to do major edge repair or flattening I have to resort to a DMT Duosharp diamond plate and it works for crap. I have no grinder and would like to get a course water stone to replace the DMT. It needs to be a stone as I don't care for sandpaper and surface plates and stones are easily stored and used in my apartment. Thanks in advance.

Darren

Darren, May I sugget again that you buy a roll of 80grit, from the top of the page for 11$
http://www.supergrit.com/products/products_rolldrumsleeve-psa.asp

attach it to a piece of MDF that is about 12inch long or longer and you can store it in any corner. it will eat-up bevels very well.

[Darren Brown]

Thankyou to Jay for recommending the Beston 500. I think that's the way I'm giong to go. I think I may have led people down the path by mentioning flattening. The only thing I have to flatten is a small set of Koyamaichi chisels from Stu which will hopefully be arriving soon, but I'm assuming the hollow on the backs of the chisels will make this a small chore. There will be no flattening of vintage chisels or plane irons in my future. Been there, hated that.

[Matthew N. Masail]

you can flatten the Koyamaichi chisels on a 4000grit water stone.... they are very well made and the hollow makes it a non issue. basically just polish the back a little and they are good to go.