Seargent VBM #5 query

[Dave Beauchesne]

In one of my local antique haunts sits a pretty grubby example of the aforementioned plane. The tote is broken ( but fixable ), the blade and chip breaker screw is toast and the frog is busted and crudely welded. On the good side, low knob, both decent rosewood, original blade and CB, not too badly rusted, lever cap rusty but a VBM type, non corrugated body looks intact. I am a Stanley guy; you almost never see Sargent out here. The ask: five bucks. I know the VBM is a decent plane, I have a bit of a problem, and this is a worthy fettling candidate. Question: how hard is it to get a replacement frog? Will a Stanley frog fit?? I know it is only five bucks, and I could likely part it out for much more, but that is not my gig. I like to make them useable. Is it worth a note on the Buy and Sell? Thanks. Dave B

[maximillian arango]

I am not sure about Stanley planes working with it but, I know Sargent made planes for Sears. I think the only differences between those re brands and the Sargent ones is the name stamped on them and the price attached to it. I forgot the names but when I remember I'll be sure to post them.

[maximillian arango]

Sargent made Craftsman, Dunlap, and Fulton I believe that those planes will be where you can find you replacement parts.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Thanks Maximillian; also, excuse the spelling error on Sargent.. Auto correct changed it on me, and I didn't notice.

[maximillian arango]

I would still hold off to see what the seniors(more experianced not old:p) say

[steven c newman]

Depends on what the area under the frog looks like, and IF you can re-use the two bolts that held the old frog. Then look for a cheap #4 about the right type of froggy bottom. A #4 will fit a #5. A photo of these two areas would help. I do have a Sargent #414, which is the same as a Stanley #5 size. Nice old plane, with the grooved sole, too. 290371this is what is under mine.290372and a frog like this one might just fit. Should be a stamp under the frog like a "409" or a "414".

[Frederick Skelly]

My #5 frankenplane is mostly a VBM but the frog is from some other mfgr (Union?). So you should be able to find a substitute. So for $5, Id grab it and try.

FWIW, I use a 2" buck bros blade in mine. It used to have a Veritas blade/breaker but that seemed like a waste so I put it in my smoother instead. The Buck works fine for what I use the #5 to do.

Fred

[Mel Miller]

It's usually not a good idea to try to cobble parts together from different makers. Save yourself the grief and aggravation - wait until something else comes along.

[steven c newman]

sargent parts fit sargent made planes. go to nhplaneparts.com and ask eric about a frog, simple as that.

[don wilwol]

You didn't say what number the plane was. If its a 9 (known as a Shaw patent) the frogs are commonly broke and very expensive and hard to find. If its a 414, I might even have a frog.

take a look at my web site. Lots of Sargent info between the site and the blog.(timetestedtools.com)

I should also note, Sargent didn't make a #5.

[Chris Griggs]

The VBMs are good planes. I used to have a VBM 424 (24" jointer). If its really a VBM and not just a a plane with a Sargent VBM lever cap it should be a number 414 on the side of the plane. I don't recall if they put VBM on any of there other numbering systems but the best old Sargent VBMs (made before 1918) had that numbering system (#4 plus the length..e.g. 414 for the 14" jack)

The unfortunate part of those planes is that it is a little harder to get replacement parts than for stanleys and MF planes. Specifically frogs and chipbreakers are a little different. Looks like some you've got some good resources in the other replies though. Good luck Dave. It'll be a good user if you get all the parts sorted out.

[Mike Holbrook]

I think I read somewhere that Sears bought planes from multiple suppliers over the years including Stanley, Miller Falls and Sargent... It might be asking to much to hope that the parts made by the different companies would be exchangeable?

I find info on 400 series planes at Time Tested Tools. I am not finding info on other types like the 700 series? 710, 718...I also wonder about the Sargent AUTOSET type of planes that I frequently see. I have even seen blades for some of these planes for sale. I am wondering if it is still possible to put these planes into service? The AUTOSET's certainly seem to see competitive bidding, but I suppose the bidding could be collectors?

Dang Chris "Big Mallet" Griggs beat me to the punch again! I don't understand why people who try to sell Sargent planes do not offer any information concerning length, width, blade size....Many trying to sell Stanley planes offer that information even though it is easily found.

[don wilwol]

The only place I know to get info on the 700 series is David Heckels book. I recommend you pick it up.

Most of the time when type info is supplied with Sargent planes it is wrong anyhow. David's info can be confusing. It took a couple emails back and forth before I understand some of it. I still haven't fully figured out the 5400 series.

when I finish the 400 series I'll probably give the 700 series a go. All I need is the 707 and 711 for a complete set.

the 700 series planes work very well, but no one is making new cutter and vintage are hard to find.

if you want info on a specific 700, PM me.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Thanks for the help so far everyone!

I bought the thing yesterday ( like I said, I have a problem ):rolleyes:

It looks to be a Sargent VBM 414, type 3 - 1910 - 1918 with the problems noted in my original post. No body casting lettering / numbering at all, but that looks correct as far as I can tell. The broken frog, while it gives me the willies, looks solid and if I remove the bits, can probably lap it to flat as it is real close now. Regardless, I will look for a replacement ( it is the ' horseshoe ' style that cannot be adjusted from the back ).

The rosewood is very nice, japanning has a few chips, but the rust is minimal, which is a bonus.

The interesting thing is the blade measures out at about .107'' - an old Stanley I grabbed is .085'' - considerably thicker which should be nice. also, it looks like the last person to use it read Kees and Wilbur's article on setting the chipbreaker - maybe just a fluke, but overall, a 100 year old survivor that seems to have been kept together and reasonably looked after.

Like I said, you very seldom see Sargent stuff out here on the Left Coast, so it is a bit of a treat.

Will try to post a couple pics later today - too many projects, so little time - - -

Dave B

[Jim Matthews]

I bought the thing yesterday ( like I said, I have a problem ):rolleyes:Dave B

Five bucks doesn't meet the threshold of addiction.

If you were giving blood, to pay for it -
that would qualify.

[Chris Griggs]

No body casting lettering / numbering at all, but that looks correct as far as I can tell.

You're probably correct that its supposed to be that way. I sold my Sargent about 6 months ago and it is very VERY likely that I was remembering incorrectly about the casting. Ignore me and trust what you find from more reliable resources. IIRC its that distinct frog and the low beaded knob that distinguish it as a type 3 or earlier.

[don wilwol]

Thanks for the help so far everyone!

I bought the thing yesterday ( like I said, I have a problem ):rolleyes:

It looks to be a Sargent VBM 414, type 3 - 1910 - 1918 with the problems noted in my original post. No body casting lettering / numbering at all, but that looks correct as far as I can tell. The broken frog, while it gives me the willies, looks solid and if I remove the bits, can probably lap it to flat as it is real close now. Regardless, I will look for a replacement ( it is the ' horseshoe ' style that cannot be adjusted from the back ).

The rosewood is very nice, japanning has a few chips, but the rust is minimal, which is a bonus.

The interesting thing is the blade measures out at about .107'' - an old Stanley I grabbed is .085'' - considerably thicker which should be nice. also, it looks like the last person to use it read Kees and Wilbur's article on setting the chipbreaker - maybe just a fluke, but overall, a 100 year old survivor that seems to have been kept together and reasonably looked after.

Like I said, you very seldom see Sargent stuff out here on the Left Coast, so it is a bit of a treat.

Will try to post a couple pics later today - too many projects, so little time - - -

Dave B

The type 3 were made from 1891-1909. The type 2 was the horseshoe style. The type 3 was to second folded, which is the picture you posted. They make very good users.

[Mike Holbrook]

I won a Sargent #414, plain bottom, at an auction site. It was about to pass with no bids for $9.95. Mine looks just like Steven's internally. The only issue I see that may require more than a little cleaning is a crack in the knob. NO 414 appears on the blade. Sargent appears on the lever cap. I am hoping the extra Veritas knob I have can be modified to fit the plane. I have seen this plane listed at 14 and 15" long, either way I think it is similar to a Stanley #5.

I will see if I can find Heckles Sargent book Don.

[don wilwol]

I just restored a couple Sargents over the weekend. I know Stanleys are easier to resell, but I've got a soft spot for the Sargents.

Mike, I can turn you a new knob if you need it.

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks Don, I don't have the plane yet so I am not sure what kind of shape the knob on it is in or whether or not the extra I have will fit. I will post when I get it and maybe contact you too.

[Dave Beauchesne]

An update:

Thanks to a very helpful SMCer who PMed me, I have a replacement frog on the way.

Last thing I need is another # 5 size plane, but, this being a Sargent VBM, and them being scarce out here, well - - - - - who can resist.:)

I really want to try the VBM iron that is 22 thou thicker than a vintage Stanley, so, will try to get pics when the build happens.

Thanks to everyone for the assistance on this one - - -

Dave B