Insulation Question?

[Raymond Fries]

My daughter is on a really tight budget and trying so hard to stay in her current apartment because it is all she can afford while going to college. It is a rather old house which is drafty and not insulated. Last year she put plastic on her windows and used that caulk to seal the gaps around the windows. Her electric heating bill was still about $400 per month for about 600 sq ft. Whew!

My wife thought of hanging thermal lining that is used for drapes on the exterior walls to help keep out the cold. It works very well on our drapes.

Can anyone offer ideas on how to better insulate an old apartment to help cut heating bills?

Thanks

[jeff shanz]

Fortunately you only have to pay that much maybe 3X a year living in the midwest. One of the things I used to do was keep the floor registers in rooms I didn't use much, closed. Keep the doors to those rooms closed. Use a portable floor heater to supplement your heat. Keep the oven door open after cooking, use energy rated appliances and light bulbs, etc. I don't use microwaves because I don't like that steam-heated taste...I use the oven for warming-up stuff too.

Sounds like you have a handle on the more permanent things.
If you can create little habits out of the small things it can make a big difference, but it's difficult trying teach kids with peer pressure and the concerns of staying within society norms. Fortunately, the one's who are wise do benefit in a variety of ways.

[Shane Copps]

Jeff.

I haven't met many people that may hate microwaves as much as I do- You sound like one!!!!!!!!!!

Raymond,

Spray foam in the can helps quite a bit if you can find the drafts. I second Jeff's suggestions on the floor heater, it costs a little to run but the main heater only runs about half the time. Two winters ago I went through 4 tanks of propane heating my place. Last winter with an Edenpure, I only used 3/4 of a tank. That little heater uses about 1 buck a day to run and cost 300 to buy- but paid for itself in about 3 months.

[Brian Hale]

Has she tried a humidifier, sometimes raising the humidity level can make the place feel warmer so you can lower the temperature some

[Mike Heidrick]

Some cheap options:
Blanket over doors
Check the outlets for drafts and stuff with insulation.

[Jason Roehl]

Is her thermostat programmable? At what temperature does she maintain the apartment when she's there and when she's not?

[Raymond Fries]

Is her thermostat programmable? At what temperature does she maintain the apartment when she's there and when she's not?

She controls the heat by turning the circuit breaker on and off. I think she has asked that the thermostat be replaced but that has not happened yet. One of those would help.

The other ideas here are great as well. Thanks

[Jason Roehl]

She controls the heat by turning the circuit breaker on and off. I think she has asked that the thermostat be replaced but that has not happened yet. One of those would help.

The other ideas here are great as well. Thanks

I'm not saying your daughter is this way, but I've done work in student-occupied apartments in the winter. Most of them were hotter than Hades--in the 72-75ºF range. In my own home, we've gotten used to 66ºF during the day and 60ºF during the night for economy's sake. It has the added benefit of forcing our bodies to adapt to the cold weather better, too.

[Steve Peterson]

She controls the heat by turning the circuit breaker on and off. I think she has asked that the thermostat be replaced but that has not happened yet. One of those would help.

The other ideas here are great as well. Thanks

It sounds like a new thermostat would help a lot. There are probably many times where she falls asleep with the heater on and wakes up sweating at 3AM.

I agree with Jason, it is easy to get used to a slightly colder temperature, especially when you are young. It is easier to insulate your body with double socks, a sweatshirt, and a hat than insulating a rental house.

Steve

[Joe Hillmann]

I think the biggest thing you could do is put in a thermostat. If she has a consistent schedule a programmable one would help even more. After that I would start on air sealing. There are often large air leaks between the floor and baseboard that can be sealed with a bit of calk along the top and bottom edge of the baseboard. Outlets on outside walls often let in air and can be sealed.

When she put up plastic on the windows where did she tape it? To the wall or to the trim? If taped to the trim the air can leak between the trim and the wall which can be sealed with calk. Doors are also a huge source of leaks and there are many products on the market that can be used to seal them up. Around here it isn't uncommon for people to wrap the outside of older homes in plastic nailed in place with lath during the winter, They wrap the entire house, windows and all and only leave an opening for the main doors. Some people even go a step further and wrap their house in black plastic to get extra heat from the sun.

If she plans to stay for at least a couple more years it may be worth it for here to put some insulation into the attic. For about $100 she could insulate 600sqft to r19. For $200 she could get it up to r38. If it reduces her electric bill by $50 each winter month it could pay for itself in the first winter. Depending on here landloard maybe he would be willing to let her fix the place up in exchange for rent.

And the biggest way to save money would be to turn the heat down and have a cold house.

[Justin Ludwig]

Is any of the money she puts into insulation deductible from her rent? I would discuss anything with the landlord before spending the cash on anything. Biggest help would be a programmable thermostat and they're cheap - even if the landlord doesn't deduct the upgrade cost, she'll benefit in one month. $400 utilities bill tells me a couple things: it's poorly insulated and the thermostat is turned too high/low. Put on a sweater in the winter, use a fan and dehumidifier in the summer.

If she can afford Rent +$400 in utilities, I guarantee she can find an apartment that's more economical.

[Michael Wildt]

Sure sounds like this is a rental. That said working with the owner can go a long way, like getting a thermostat replaced. Many times if you offer to replace it if they cover the cost things can go more smoothly. Additionally if the owner gets more educated on the benefit of insulating etc, aka sale value of the house is increasing, it may play in your favor as well. Just taking advantage of energy rebates etc can cover a large part of the investment. If owner lives in the house they may benefit as well.

[John TenEyck]

Drafts are one of the largest sources of heat loss in an older home. Sealing every one she can find would be priority number one, using spray foam, caulk, whatever works. Windows are the number two source, even really good windows are poor insulators compared to a wall, poor windows are almost like having none at all. Covering them with plastic, even covering some with foam board would be the next priority. Leaky doors, same as drafts, add weatherstripping to seal them. Uninsulated doors can be covered with insulating fabric or foam. As mentioned, insulation in the attic, or lack of it, is the largest source of heat loss from the building structure, so anything she can do to improve that is money well spent.

Not to ruffle any feathers, but those Edenpure or similar $300 electric heaters are snake oil. A watt is a watt. All electric heaters are essentially 100% efficient; it doesn't matter which one you buy so buy the cheapest one that has the BTU output you need. Also recognize that in most areas of the country electricity costs substantially more than natural gas. A ventless natural gas heater would be a lot cheaper per BTU than an electric one.

But before I did all that, I'd be looking to move to some place where the heat is included in the rent or I knew the heating costs were low, even if I had to pay $50 or $75 more a month.

John

[Raymond Fries]

She tells me there is no thermostat in her apartment. She lives on the first floor of an old house that was cut up into apartments. She said that the vents have "Low, Med, & High" on them but really do not control anything. I need to go over there and check it out and help her with options. There is a thermostat somewhere even if it is in another apartment.

[jeff shanz]

Jeff.

I haven't met many people that may hate microwaves as much as I do- You sound like one!!!!!!!!!!



You and I might be the only ones...nice to meet you!

[Ed Aumiller]

If she does not have a thermostat, that means to me she is sharing the heating bill with other tenants... who is figuring out each tenants cost ???

Probably nothing she does will lower the cost because she is only part of the equation....

Would definitely move...

Also, since it is a rental, she probably cannot do any caulking, insulation, etc without owners permission... (I do not allow ANY modifications to our rentals without my express written permission, too many people make things worse and costly for me)

[Mike Lassiter]

If she does not have a thermostat, that means to me she is sharing the heating bill with other tenants... who is figuring out each tenants cost ???

Probably nothing she does will lower the cost because she is only part of the equation....

Would definitely move...

Also, since it is a rental, she probably cannot do any caulking, insulation, etc without owners permission... (I do not allow ANY modifications to our rentals without my express written permission, too many people make things worse and costly for me)

It would be interesting to see how many electric meters there are. I really doubt the owner divided up all the electric wiring in the building and provided separate electric services for each if the house was originally a single family house. She maybe paying for everyone's usage.

[Lee Schierer]

I would determine the correct type of thermostat and replace it. Even a $200 thermostat would save her enough in the first month to pay for itself. Keep the existing one and just before she moves out put it back and take the new one with her unless the landlord is willing to pay for it.

[Shawn Pixley]

There are pretty good programmable thermostats available at very cheap prices. She could install it herself and remove it when she leaves. There are cheap honeycombed insulating blinds. Seal all outlets etc... Others have offered good advice.

[Rich Engelhardt]

She tells me there is no thermostat in her apartment. She lives on the first floor of an old house that was cut up into apartments. She said that the vents have "Low, Med, & High" on them but really do not control anything. I need to go over there and check it out and help her with options. There is a thermostat somewhere even if it is in another apartment.
Sounds to me like this is an illegal setup.
Probably why the rent is reasonable.


Also, since it is a rental, she probably cannot do any caulking, insulation, etc without owners permission... (I do not allow ANY modifications to our rentals without my express written permission, too many people make things worse and costly for me)
Exactly.
We don't allow any modifications to our rentals either w/out written permission for the same reason.

[Raymond Fries]

She says there are five electric meters and four apartments in the house which I find odd. Any idea why there would be five meters?

[Matt Meiser]

Common areas?

[David Weaver]

Might be one for laundry and stuff in the basement.

If I were her and I was really tight for money, I'd start examining keeping the apartment around 55 and heating only the spot immediately where I'm sitting either with radiant heat or with some kind of heated device. I know my mother had no heat in the upstairs of the house she grew up in in PA. there were holes cut in the floor (two about 3" in diameter) and if heat didn't come through them, you didn't get heat.

http://richsoil.com/electric-heat.jsp

She could also double up a sleeping bag and literally turn the heat off at night. If there are other apartments, she will siphon some heat off of them.

Sleeping bags over windows at night would help, too (old used ones would be fine). Otherwise there's probably no other things that will help with the heat dissipation.

[Myk Rian]

I would determine the correct type of thermostat and replace it. Even a $200 thermostat would save her enough in the first month to pay for itself. Keep the existing one and just before she moves out put it back and take the new one with her unless the landlord is willing to pay for it.
4 messages up-thread, Raymond states she has no T-stat. Someone else has it.

[Steve Peterson]

She says there are five electric meters and four apartments in the house which I find odd. Any idea why there would be five meters?

5 electric meters, but only 1 thermostat that she does not control. Sounds like a difficult situation.

I knew a guy that lived in a 4 or 8 person apartment with separate electric meters and a shared water heater. The bill for heating the water was split between all the tenants. One of them ran hot water through garden hoses coiled around his apartment. He was getting all the heat, but only paying a fraction of the cost.

Steve

[Matt Meiser]

She tells me there is no thermostat in her apartment. She lives on the first floor of an old house that was cut up into apartments. She said that the vents have "Low, Med, & High" on them but really do not control anything. I need to go over there and check it out and help her with options. There is a thermostat somewhere even if it is in another apartment.

That sounds like electric baseboard heat to me.

[Lee Schierer]

4 messages up-thread, Raymond states she has no T-stat. Someone else has it.

Actually,

She controls the heat by turning the circuit breaker on and off. I think she has asked that the thermostat be replaced but that has not happened yet.

It would appear she has control of both the circuit breaker and thermostat, but the thermostat does not work.

[Raymond Fries]

Looks like I mis-spoke. Sorry.

She said she does not see one but requested that one be installed so that she can control the temperature. The landlord has not installed one.

[Michael Weber]

I hate to be so suspicious, but is it possible someone is stealing electricity from her. Not sure of the wiring situation but if the wiring for her apt. is in a common wall with someone else, it's possible they might be tapped in. If it was me I would unplug everything including turning off the heat, and go watch my meter to see if it was turning. Of course summertime wouldn't be appropriate. Since she's down stairs she is providing heat for everyone above her just because of physics. I had a roommate at school that liked the inside temps freezing (ac turned low) during the summertime so he could snuggle under the covers and hot in the winter so he could sleep on top of the covers. It was a dorm so it there were no utilities but still the guy was nuts.

[Tony Zona]

I would move to a more reasonable apartment, and check the utility bills ahead of time. She has a bad landlord.

[Myk Rian]

She could turn off her power, and see who investigates the loss of their own, or complains.
It's always possible she's paying for the wrong meter.