table saw rookie - my choices

[jonathan sneed]

Hey guys,

I am in the market finally for a new table saw. I have narrowed down my choices but have never used any of them so kinda in the dark about pros/cons even with reading tons of reviews. Here are my uses and needs to take into consideration.

Uses - avid hobbiest, by no means a professional so budget is a consideration (plus im upgrading other tools as well). I probably wont be slicing alot of sheet goods although having the ability is a plus.
Needs -Everything in my shop is mobile, so i if it doesnt have wheels it will lol (so thats a wash), would like it to be able to make blade/dado changes quick and simple, easy (relatively) leveling/squaring, and decent dust collection (i do have a dust collector).

Ive been looking at the Ridgid http://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-13-Amp-10-in-Professional-Table-Saw-R4512/202500206?N=5yc1vZc29i

Grizzly http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Hybrid-Table-Saw-with-Riving-Knife-Polar-Bear-Series-/G0715P

Craftsman http://www.sears.com/craftsman-professional-10-in-contractor-saw-sears-21833/p-00921833000P?prdNo=11&blockNo=11&blockType=G11

Delta http://www.lowes.com/pd_510897-52010-36-725_0__?storeNumber=1524&Ntt=delta+saw&selectedLocalStoreBeanArray=%5Bcom.lowes.commerce. storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean%406d136d13%5D&pl=1&productId=50081568&ipTrail=74.202.191.66&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Ddelta%2Bsaw

Im leaning toward the Grizzly hybrid only because it seems more substantial of a saw (table and cabinet), has 220 power (if that is an advantage at all) and I have a Grizzly bandsaw i love and have had great experiences with them although its more $$ than the others and im not sure this being a hybrid has a true advantage over the other choices. The new Delta saw that Lowes now carries looks decent but the reviews are few since its a newer model carried by them. Ive heard/read nothing but good about the Ridgid saw and leary of the Craftsman only because (in my mind at least) most the Craftsman stuff ive encountered or have owned isnt the craftsman stuff my dad had of the 80's- early 90's, it seems cheaply made nowadays (but cant speak for that saw specifically).

Would love to hear from owners about these machines. thanks in advance!! jonathan

[Mike Chalmers]

I own the Ridgid. Wish I had the Grizzly Hybrid. The fence on the Ridgid disappointed me. I did not experience the most commonly posted fault, where the blade goes out of alignment as you rise it until you lower it some. Cuts OK, I find the motor a little weak. Dust collection is good. Tin extension wings all right, but not a solid addition. Hard to get or make inserts, either zero clearance or dado. Riving knife is good. Detachable blade guard is good. Price is good. Grizzly shouts "I'm a kick a55 saw", Ridgid, not so much.
Bottom line. Ridgid is good bang for the buck, but leaves me flat. (It does match my shop vac)

[Doug Ladendorf]

Skip the Delta. Getting parts is questionable these days and sadly it's a risky buy IMHO. The Ridgid has satisfied customers but not as substantial. Don't count out the Craftsman. It's made by someone else (Steel City?) and reputed to be OK. The dust collection alone on the Grizzly makes it my choice out of the bunch. You might also look for a decent used cabinet saw.

[scott spencer]

Keep reading....the R4512, Cman 21833 (pretty much the same saws...both made by Dayton AFAIK), and even the G0715P with similar guts as the other two saws all have a long history of severe alignment issues. The problem doesn't effect every single unit, but it's plagued many saws from all of those models. The problem is that the blade shifts out of alignment when the elevation is changed....it's not really fixable on those that suffer from it. The G0715P is the more substantial saw of all of those, and Grizzly's CS is excellent, but it's a hassle to get a new saw with a severe problem that needs to be returned. They can all be decent saws if you get a good one....just be aware and be prepared to deal with it if you get a plagued unit.

The Delta has the fewest chinks in it's armor, but it's also the newest release, and the CS and parts issues with Delta are a valid concern. The biggest knock I've read about is the throat insert.....a much less severe problem to deal with than a terminal alignment issue.

The Steel City 35990, Rikon 10-201 (same as the 35990), and the CMan 22116 with granite top (different design, but also made by Steel City) are also possibilities. If you have 220v, and can find a way to spend closer to $1400, I'd give serious consideration to the Grizzly G1023RL....it's a great saw for the money, and is in a different league than any hybrid or contractor saw. Good setup and blade selection are key factors in the end performance of any saw...

You can also keep your eyes peeled for a good used saw on Craigslist....ya never know!

[Don Huffer]

Hey guys,

I am in the market finally for a new table saw. I have narrowed down my choices but have never used any of them so kinda in the dark about pros/cons even with reading tons of reviews. Here are my uses and needs to take into consideration.

Uses - avid hobbiest, by no means a professional so budget is a consideration (plus im upgrading other tools as well). I probably wont be slicing alot of sheet goods although having the ability is a plus.
Needs -Everything in my shop is mobile, so i if it doesnt have wheels it will lol (so thats a wash), would like it to be able to make blade/dado changes quick and simple, easy (relatively) leveling/squaring, and decent dust collection (i do have a dust collector).

Ive been looking at the Ridgid http://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-13-Amp-10-in-Professional-Table-Saw-R4512/202500206?N=5yc1vZc29i

Grizzly http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Hybrid-Table-Saw-with-Riving-Knife-Polar-Bear-Series-/G0715P

Craftsman http://www.sears.com/craftsman-professional-10-in-contractor-saw-sears-21833/p-00921833000P?prdNo=11&blockNo=11&blockType=G11

Delta http://www.lowes.com/pd_510897-52010-36-725_0__?storeNumber=1524&Ntt=delta+saw&selectedLocalStoreBeanArray=%5Bcom.lowes.commerce. storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean%406d136d13%5D&pl=1&productId=50081568&ipTrail=74.202.191.66&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Ddelta%2Bsaw

Im leaning toward the Grizzly hybrid only because it seems more substantial of a saw (table and cabinet), has 220 power (if that is an advantage at all) and I have a Grizzly bandsaw i love and have had great experiences with them although its more $$ than the others and im not sure this being a hybrid has a true advantage over the other choices. The new Delta saw that Lowes now carries looks decent but the reviews are few since its a newer model carried by them. Ive heard/read nothing but good about the Ridgid saw and leary of the Craftsman only because (in my mind at least) most the Craftsman stuff ive encountered or have owned isnt the craftsman stuff my dad had of the 80's- early 90's, it seems cheaply made nowadays (but cant speak for that saw specifically).

Would love to hear from owners about these machines. thanks in advance!! jonathan

First off. Don't sell you abilities short because your doing this as a hobby. Think big. Bet you spend more on a car that will go down in value in a mater of minutes than all your tools combined. You could have a fantastic shop for half the price of an average car and it will last a life time. My Unisaw was the second saw I bought after a frustrating 10 months with a Crapsman. That was almost 30 years ago.

Griz is probably a good choice. At least 3 hp so you won't be kicking yourself when your a master hobbiest building solid wood furniture. An in good or excellent shape used saw would be my first choice because new saws these days kind suck in comparison.

Think big bite the bullet you won't regret it.

Do

[Jay Park]

The Steel City 35990, Rikon 10-201 (same as the 35990), and the CMan 22116 with granite top

Another very good Craftsman saw is the model #22124, one model older version of the Steel city saw mentioned, but come with a Biesemeyer fence (a very good fence)

[Brian Tymchak]

I have the Ridgid 3650 - it's been a good saw. At 1.5 hp it bogs down a bit going through 8/4 Ash so I have to slow the feed rate down. But it makes it. I did replace the fence with an Incra TS/LS, although my stock fence was not deficient. I wanted longer rails to add a router table and decided to go with the full fence system.

However, aside from the lack of horsepower, the other annoying thing I found that I didn't realize before buying the saw is that I can't put a full dado stack (29/32) on the arbor. Best I can do is about 9/16. I have to work around that and it has been a bit of a pain when I want a 3/4" groove. Can't tell from the HD site what the available arbor length is on the 4512.

[Eric DeSilva]

Have you considered used? For less than the price of that Grizzly, I picked up a Platinum Edition Unisaw in great shape with a 51" Biesenmeier fence and a bunch of extras, including a mobile base. I've outifitted most of my shop from Craigslist--it takes some patience, but you can really stretch a dollar...

[John TenEyck]

Have you considered used? For less than the price of that Grizzly, I picked up a Platinum Edition Unisaw in great shape with a 51" Biesenmeier fence and a bunch of extras, including a mobile base. I've outifitted most of my shop from Craigslist--it takes some patience, but you can really stretch a dollar...

This. IMO, the only new saw worth buying is a Sawstop. Otherwise, you will get a lot better saw, for a lot less money, if you buy an old American or Canadian one. No, you won't get a riving knife, but if you religiously use the guard, splitter and anti kickback pawls, you will be fine. And I agree with the other poster who advised you to think big. Figuratively and literally. Don't settle for a contractor type saw - none of them will please you like an old Unisaw, Powermatic 66, or the like. My newbie woodworker friend has bought two Unisaws in the past 6 months, one with a 1 HP bullet motor, the other with a 3 HP motor and pretty good after market fence. He paid $300, and $350, respectively. FYI, that 120V, 1 HP bullet motor is amazing.

John

[Paul McGaha]

Have you considered used? For less than the price of that Grizzly, I picked up a Platinum Edition Unisaw in great shape with a 51" Biesenmeier fence and a bunch of extras, including a mobile base. I've outifitted most of my shop from Craigslist--it takes some patience, but you can really stretch a dollar...

+1. Craigslist and also the classified section here on the creek.

The last few tools I've purchased were bought used. Pricing about half of new.

And also really, you might consider a Sawstop. I have a 10 year old Unisaw that I bought new. If something were to happen to it, I must say I'd certainly consider a Sawstop.

Good luck with it.

PHM

[Andrew Pitonyak]

If you are worried about alignment issues (since some of the ones that you mentioned frequently have them) it might be an advantage to buy where you know you can return it if you are not happy with it.

I liked my Ridgid saw, but it was an older model. It lacked some basic safety features that all the new ones have so I replaced it with a Saw Stop (great saw) purchased from a WoodCraft (good return policy). I purchased the Ridgid on Craig's List. Saw some really nice saws on Craig's List from time to time.

Don't forget about things such as dust collection, but all of the models these days are likely at least decent if you do not have a contractor's model.

[Brett Luna]

I have the Delta 36-725. While it definitely has its pluses and minuses, I'm pretty darn satisfied with it so far, considering the price point. As noted above, parts are a concern and I do hope that Delta gets its act together soon. Because they haven't yet, throat plates remain elusive as does a thin kerf riving knife. I've started on the path to making my own throat plates. I haven't had a problem with the saw's light weight but I haven't run any large or heavy stock over it yet.

On the plus side, I agree with other reviewers that the fence is among the best in the saw's price range. It was a snap to adjust for parallel and it locks up tight and true. I wasn't all that keen on the table-mounted trunnions but out of the box, the blade had only 0.004" of toe-in and I haven't felt a burning desire to fuss over getting it any closer.

I converted my saw to 220V and it was a relatively painless process and the only minor pain was one of my own making. I elected to replace the entire power cord rather than just the plug and because it was a beefier cord, I had to take the Dremel tool to the strain relief clip. Otherwise, it was a simple matter of removing two screws from a cover and flipping a and a switch.

I still want a SawStop but this one got me started.

[Jim Matthews]

As a hybrid woodworker, I own a bandsaw as my "unpaid apprentice" to handle larger, or repetitive cuts.

Most of the things I make have pieces no larger than 40" in length.
I breakdown sheet goods with a tracksaw.

Why go straight to a tablesaw?
Were you trained with one, or are you just starting out?

I dislike tools that dictate my method of work, precise or not.

[jonathan sneed]

As a hybrid woodworker, I own a bandsaw as my "unpaid apprentice" to handle larger, or repetitive cuts.

Most of the things I make have pieces no larger than 40" in length.
I breakdown sheet goods with a tracksaw.

Why go straight to a tablesaw?
Were you trained with one, or are you just starting out?

I dislike tools that dictate my method of work, precise or not.


I have a grizzly GO555X 14" with a riser and a Bosch 12" compound sliding miter saw and luckily ive been able to get away with alot of cuts using those 2 machines. Ive been finding myself, as i expand my knowledge of woodworking, needing/wating dado cuts for shelves and using premium plywood stuff lately. Ive been lucky to get this far without a table saw actually.

[scott spencer]

I think you'll find a TS to be very accurate, and easily leaves a glue line cut with a decent blade.

[Jim Matthews]

Ive been finding myself, as i expand my knowledge of woodworking, needing/wating dado cuts for shelves and using premium plywood stuff lately. Ive been lucky to get this far without a table saw actually.

I make those with a router, and two edge guides to "trap" the base along the cutline.

Have a look at the Eurekazone products. I was on the fence about a decent tablesaw
until I went to a shop that didn't use one, and cranks out the occasional kitchen cabinet.

The idea is to spend funds on tools with real utility that don't take up too much floor space.

FYI - I like to form a rabbet at the end of plywood panels to joint them together.
This allows me to get continuous grain from the sheet to "wrap around" the cabinet.

I use a circular saw with an edge guide, to cut through to the last 2 plies.
A chisel and rabbet plane smooth the bottom of the rabbet.

290385

http://www.eurekazone.com/

I don't use the fancy bench, I just lay sheet goods on my folding sawhorses with a piece of foam board underneath.
The Eurekazone trackguide clamps onto the sheet, and I cut to the line.

It's simple and stores in a small space.

[Noah Vig]

I have a Craftsman 22124 (hybrid) and am very satisfied with it; bought it new in 2006 and have had zero problems. The motor does bog down though if you try to rip thick stock fast; I usually use a bandsaw for this though. I have been tempted to replace it by deals I have seen on true cabinet saws but have not. I am really only tempted just because a true cabinet saw would be more powerful and heavier built. I don't know anything about the saws you mentioned.

My recommendation is to buy a used real cabinet saw with a good fence system and be done with it. They come up fairly regularly on craigslist.

[Julian Tracy]

Using a track saw instead of a tablesaw is kind of like using a jigsaw instead of a bandsaw. It'll work, and with good tools and technique, you can achieve the same quality or near to it, but it's not near as fast or easy as using the right tool.

I have a Festool Tracksaw, but I wouldn't be without my tablesaw.

JT

[Glen Sargeant]

I have had some pretty bad experiences with Sears products, enough to be cautious about doing business with the company. One of my purchases was a top-end Craftsman contractor saw. It was just okay. I wouldn't buy it again.

I considered portability, power requirements, cost, and precision and replaced my Craftsman saw with a Jet Proshop hybrid. Knowing of the various tradeoffs and about competing products, I would make the same choice again. I use it every day. It's quiet, accurate, safer than my Craftsman, and "enough saw'' for all of my needs. Mine is the one with cast wings and 34" fence. Wish I had the 50" fence, but I don't have the space.

They are 15% off this weekend.

[glenn bradley]

Another very good Craftsman saw is the model #22124, one model older version of the Steel city saw mentioned, but come with a Biesemeyer fence (a very good fence)

Sadly no longer available but, a really well made saw designed by Orion who went on to start Steel City Tool Works before moving on. If you could find one used, I would go for it. There were other comparable hybrids competing during that time period but, most have fallen prey to the "we want Wal-Mart pricing" pill that plagues our available choices. The 22124 and its equals of old aside, I would put just a bit more money into it and go straight to the 3HP cab saw category. This is easy to say after having walked the path but, is harder to sell when you are just starting out.

[Art Mann]

I have a Craftsman 22124 (hybrid) and am very satisfied with it; bought it new in 2006 and have had zero problems. The motor does bog down though if you try to rip thick stock fast; I usually use a bandsaw for this though. I have been tempted to replace it by deals I have seen on true cabinet saws but have not. I am really only tempted just because a true cabinet saw would be more powerful and heavier built. I don't know anything about the saws you mentioned.

My recommendation is to buy a used real cabinet saw with a good fence system and be done with it. They come up fairly regularly on craigslist.

Where I (and a lot of other people) live, cabinet saws come up for sale on Craigslist at the rate of about one per year and they are often priced within 20% of new. Your advice is only good in areas with a lot of woodworking activity.

[Keith Hankins]

Ok as someone who's been around this one a lot, forget 2 & 3. You will not be happy in the long run.

I had a grizzly 1023 for almost 10 years so I have experience with Griz. I've got their 17" bandsaw and 12 jointer. They make good saws.

However, I'm going to tell you to not go with a hybrid. If you absolutely cannot do 220v, then I understand, but I'd save the bucks look on searchtempest.com and an old cabinet saw will pop up and for that same money you can have good cabinet saw.

Also checkout the oldwoodworking machinery website. Lots of folks rehab great old american Iron and sell it for good reasonable prices. My table saws over the years have been every thing from a little tabletop 10" to contractor, to shopsmith to cabinet saw to Sawstop. Nothing comes close to a cabinet saw. Been there done that. Good luck

[jonathan sneed]

looks like now with all the info and this and a few other site reviews seems the way to go is just to bear down and work a few more shifts this month and get the Grizzly GO690...Ill keep checking CL and see if anything pops up comparable until then. I do, however, need to get 220 in my garage and a few more normal plugs while im at it...side question - anyone know what the going rate ballpark is on getting a 220 install done?? I have zero knowledge of any of that..when i tried calling a few electricians they gave me the standard "we gotta come out and look" answer. thanks a bunch guys, jonathan

[Glen Sargeant]

Cost will depend on access to an adequate supply, so ranges from cheap to fairly expensive. I just added another 220 line in my shop, using a new panel I had installed when I rewired it around 10 years ago. That was cheap ($173, including work I had done in my house as well). Installing the panel and wiring, in current dollars, would probably cost about $1000 ($600 then). So... unfortunately they probably do have to come out and look to give you a reasonable estimate.

[Justin Jump]

Your first question - the saw. let me chime in here. I too was thinking about Grizzly, and saving and spending an extra few dollars to get a bit more quality, then I realized my shop was done, and empty (and I was out of money!!) I went the Ridigd route, mainly, for cost savings. At $449 if you can get the 10% discount, the R4512 is absolutely worth it, especially if you have been able to "get by" without one. I converted mine to 220v, and there are some that say it runs better, but I have never ran it at 120v, so I wouldnt know. It has a riving knive, not just a splitter, and it will accept a full 3/4" dado. I have now ran many different woods through it, usually no thicker than 1" - 1 1/2", and have had no issues. You do have to slow the feed a little on some of the harder woods.

Oh yeah - dont forget about the "Lifetime" warranty. It might be a pain if you have to for some reason take and entire table saw to a service center, but other that the motor going which customer service can usually be convinced to just send a new one. They did send me a new fence after I complaind about the squareness of the original.

As for the alignment issue, the first thing I did when I brought my saw home was lift the unit onto a table, and check square and alignment. I did not do any of the assembly until I found out if the alignemtn issues was good or not. If not, simply take the saw back to HD and get a new one.

Your second question - the 220 line. If there is access, and a line can easily be run, I wouldnt expect an electrician to charge more than a day's labor and some material to install a 220v line for you, I would expect around $300-$350, but that might be a bit sttep for just one line.

The going rate around here (Pittsburgh) for an entire panel upgrade is just around $100/amp. So - 200 amp panel, your looking around $2000. If you know or have access to a good electrican, who can do it on the side and is knowledgable, might save $500 or so.

My setup below:



http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?193353-Finally-I-think-I-am-ready-to-build-something&highlight=