making tapered ferrule

[Noah Wagener]

I have a hodge podge set of Japanese mortise chisels. The 1/4 inch one has a smaller ferrule than the 1/8 inch one and i have broken two handles on it. There is only like 1/16" of wood between the corners of the tang and the inside of the socket. The only things i can find are plastic ones for golf clubs.

[Sean Hughto]

I don't know if I understand your question really, and I don't use Japanese chisels, but I have made several ferrules. Copper and brass plumbing and gas fittings are excellent and easily shaped with a file either free hand or on a lathe.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3543/3457955904_2df9787ce3_z.jpg

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2569/4126033795_d05b6d0bc5_b.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4014/4651734592_ba16bf1326_b.jpg

[Noah Wagener]

thanks Sean. i use the plumbing dept for hoops on the striking end.

on Japanese chisels there is a tapered section that ends in a bolster with a tang coming out. If the ferrule was the same diameter as where it meets the bolster i think it would be too narrow so it must be tapered as well. They look like a typical socket chisel at first blush.

[Pedro Reyes]

There is always this.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,41504&p=30021

Pedro

[David Weaver]

I think you're probably stuck because the taper of the chisels are manufactured to match the ferrule.

From a practical standpoint, I'd guess the technique using the chisels will be easier to fix than fixing the situation with the chisels and the tang (which would be solvable either by getting a wider ferrule or narrowing the tang - I wouldn't narrow the tang).

[David Weaver]

The ferrules, hoops, handles and stuff (noah probably already knows this, it's just a point made for folks advocating western tools) are a produced item that I'd assume most smiths buy.

http://www.330mate.com/product/261

See the ferrule on the left.

I think in the balance of things, I'd want to solve the technique issue, though (less prying) before fiddling with the chisel because all of the parts of the chisel have been made to go together and I'm not sure that a wider ferrule will just fit the tang of the chisel, etc, so that the only thing is that it looks bad.

[Noah Wagener]

That probably wasn't clear and the type of thing i would not even be able to read it with my a.d.d.

Here's some pics:

289913

289914289915

[Sean Hughto]

Like these?http://www.rpwoodwork.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/img_0983_edited-2.jpg If so, I really think you could find a brass fitting that is tapered like that or could be filed to that shape while maintaining its strength. http://www.superimpex.in/images/brass-fittings-03.jpg

[Noah Wagener]

David,

I was saying my post was unclear, not yours, you snuck in two posts while i was uploading those pics.

Do you see how tiny it is? Maybe originally it was like the chisel to the right of it where the ferrule is bigger than the bolster.

Unrelated but you had stated in another post about quickly done "Rikizai type" laminations. These chisels have something like a tongue and groove laminations with the tool steel part being the groove. Is this considered poor quality? I thought it was pretty cool.

Also unrelated but should the socket on paring chisels be able to clear the work piece while the chisel is held flat to it? I have a Greenlee and a unknown Japanese parer that i would like to bend a little because you have to lift the chisel slightly to continue paring but am wary to do so.

Sean, i see in a post where you wrote you live on a planet with a moon. In the words of Old Ben Konobi. "that's no moon." There are some conspiracy nuts who state that at the speed and distance of the moon it would have to be almost hollow to not crash into the earth. ie a death star. How High the Moon? not enough


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzOvJ8wYA1I

[David Weaver]

Noah, i definitely found your posts clear, I just thought other people might not.

The japanese chisels generally do not have "reach" on a flush surface, the shank of the chisel will touch the workpiece if you go straight in on it. I've never thought about bending them, I'd get a cranked chisel if I were going to do that.

Mortise chisels made the way you describe are fairly common. Rikizai is something different, it's a lamination that is straight across and the chisels ground out of the prelaminated material.

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product/156571/1-Japan-Woodworker-Bench-Chisel.aspx

(I don't know for sure that JWW chisel is from rikizai, just showing the lamination as an example).

A chisel that has the bit inserted and is hammered alternatively on the top and bottom and then sides ends up looking like this where the lamination wraps around:

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product/156441/1-White-Steel-Bench-Chisel--Matsumura.aspx

I'm not sure what they're doing to the mortise chisels to get them to look like that, but some of the large mortise chisels especially look like that.

In terms of whether or not the rikizai lamination is a shortcoming functionally, I don't know. All of the old western chisels have a straight across lamination like that and have held together fine, but many of them are also laminated to iron.

It's just a matter of something being taken away from the smith with those, the refining of the steel. The better japanese chisels suffer less unexpected small chipping, they are very tough and I think the skill of the smith has a lot to do with it.

[Jim Koepke]

My thought is time for a redesign.

It may not look as pretty, but it beats replacing handles.

Maybe a fat washer at the base and a bigger handle to prevent breakage.

jtk

[Wiktor Kuc]

Noah, you might want to read this piece:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/jThompson/nutFerrule/nutFerrule1.asp, especially last page.

[Steve Voigt]

Wiktor, that is a really cool technique!
Sean, did you use the same technique on the tools you posted?

[Wiktor Kuc]

Yes, I like it a lot. The only issue I have is that there is very limited number of sizes for these brass flare nuts. I like my ferrules looong... ;-)

[Sean Hughto]

Sean, did you use the same technique on the tools you posted?

Yes. The article mentions Thompson lathe tools on the third page. Most of my pics above are lathe tools, and several are Thompson.

[Steve Voigt]

Cool, thanks. Definitely going to try that.