Tenon Saw for Schools

[Ross Doherty]

Hello to everyone, this is my first post on this forum so I thought I'd introduce myself first. I'm Ross, I'm 33, and I teach Woodwork is a small school in the West of Ireland, Mayo to be exact. I have just been given money to replace all the tenon saws in the woodwork room. The ones we have are standard 300mm, brass backed, with a beech handle, and are 20+ years old. I have been given a budget of €1500 to replace the 24 saws, so that's €62 a saw. I may be able to go little higher if I talk nice to management.

My question is what saw would you recommend? I teach students from 12-18 years, mostly cross cutting, but sometimes cutting tenons. The younger classes make small projects from red deal, like picture frames, candle holders, jewelry boxes usually in wood sized 40 x 20mm, 60 x 15mm or similar. The older students make dining chairs, coffee tables, and other large projects from hardwoods - usually beech or mahogany. They cut the tenons by hand in wood that can be up to 70 x 30mm. I know its a tall ask to pick one saw that can do all this, but that is the choice I have to make.

I have looked at the Veratas 275mm Carcass saw. Its gotten great reviews and within budget even if it does look weird. My other choices seem to be from the Flinn-Garlick factory in Sheffield like Pax, or the Victor Brand that Axmister sell. Or there is also Footprint. All these saws come in 250mm and 300mm. I'm not sure which size would suit best.

Any advice is very welcome, and greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Ross

[Mel Fulks]

Pretty sure that all here are wondering what's wrong with the saws you have now.

[David Weaver]

If the veritas rip carcass saws have rake that is slightly relaxed, I would go with those.

I don't teach kids, though, so I don't know if the tooth count might be a bit aggressive for kids crosscutting shoulders on tenons.

What is your capacity to refile the crosscut saw as rip with a 10 degree rake or so? The toothcount might be easier for beginners doing that, but it would be a little slow in a 3" long tenon. Slow isn't the biggest deal in the world, though - unable to start the cut is a bigger deal.

Like mel said, what's wrong with the current saws (and to add to that, what's the tooth profile on them and how well does it work?)

[Ross Doherty]

Hello,and thanks for the quick replies.
The problem with the saws I have are the blade is bent on almost all of them. Can they be straightened? The handles are loose and damaged. They have basically taken a lot of abuse over the years - some kids don't treat things as well as adults. You know the story. The saws I have are cross cut, with 14 tpi. I've never sharpened a saw and don't know anything about rake angle - I obviously have some learning to do.
Ross

[David Weaver]

If the kids are beating up the plates and handles of the current saws, I'd stick with something like the more inexpensive pax lines, because they'll have thicker plates. They won't be the lovely super fast cutting thin plated saws we like here, but some nod has to be given to their longevity and a thicker plate on an inexpensive saw fares better for that.

[paul cottingham]

Just a quick thought. The Veritas saw is a great saw for the money. It would be easier to keep the handle tight, and the blade is thick enough to be able to take some abuse.
Or follow David's thinking, as the Pax saw will be a tough one for sure.

[Ross Doherty]

Yeah, I really like what I've read about the Veratas Carcass saw. I haven't read one thing negative about it yet. I like the way its 11" also. Sometimes I feel the 12" tenon saw is too big for some of the smaller work we do, and for some of the younger kids to hold. If I was to go for the Veratas do you think Crosscut or rip? Crosscut is 14tpi, rip is 12.

If I was to go the Pax route, which do you think would be better - 10" or 12"? And also which version - cross cut or rip?

Thanks for all the input.
Ross

[Kim Malmberg]

Hi Ross
I have resharpened a bunch of tenon saws for my children's school here in Finland. They were a mixture of Stanley and Sandvik, all with plastic handles.
My advice would be to start with rehabbing a couple of your best current saws and then hand them out to the children for a test run. I think a relaxed configuration is best. They should be easy to start and control and I think that when children are concerned more set is better.
My thinking is that the children could help you find out what works best for them and then order accordingly.
Maybe even better would be to ask for advice from the saw makers you have in mind.
I envy your budget because it really allows you to buy some decent saws. But I do wonder how long these new saws will last. But maybe you have much better classroom discipline in Ireland.

[Ross Doherty]

Hello,
Yeah classroom discipline is fairly decent in our school. No one damages tools on purpose. I have friends in other schools that have given up trying to keep the chisels sharp as students keep hitting them off the metal vice knocking chips out of the edge. That would be a nightmare to deal with. I'll give sharpening some of the better saws a try, but as I said I've never done this before. I don't have much time though - I have to order these saws before the end of the school year which is in 9 days! I think its between the Veratas Carcass Crosscut or the 10" Pax Crosscut. Then sharpen up 4 or 5 of our better 12" saws and use them for the bigger work.
Ross

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I would be tempted to start with seeing if either company would be wiling to cut you a bit of a deal, since you're talking about ordering 24 saws, and you're doing so for a school. I have no idea if either company has those sorts of programs in place, but it can't hurt to ask if you go about it tactfully.

[paul cottingham]

Yeah, I really like what I've read about the Veratas Carcass saw. I haven't read one thing negative about it yet. I like the way its 11" also. Sometimes I feel the 12" tenon saw is too big for some of the smaller work we do, and for some of the younger kids to hold. If I was to go for the Veratas do you think Crosscut or rip? Crosscut is 14tpi, rip is 12.

If I was to go the Pax route, which do you think would be better - 10" or 12"? And also which version - cross cut or rip?

Thanks for all the input.
Ross

Honestly, if you have the budget, I would buy a mix. Failing that, I would buy rip saws, as they can crosscut. Ripping with a crosscut, well, that's another story.

[Kim Malmberg]

I agree with Joshua. And make sure to check if they can adopt rhe setup for children's use.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Ross,

Welcome to the Creek.

I would go with the thicker plates and see what kind of deal you can get.

There are a few posts here on restoring saws, even bent plates:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103805-Neanderthal-wisdom-FAQs

You may have a few students who would also be interested in learning about sharpening saws and fixing up the old beaters.

Here is more information about saws and sharpening/filing:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/library/library.html

jtk

[Ross Doherty]

Thanks for the advice again. I will definitely try to get a deal on the saws as I am buying a large number, and its for educational reasons. I'd love to buy a mix of saws as its not practical because the students would be arguing over who gets what saw. Everyone using the same saw will make my life easier. I was leaning towards cross cut saws as its almost all cross cutting work we do apart from cutting the face on tenons, and the ends of dovetails. Are rip saws as accurate enough when cutting shoulders?

[Ross Doherty]

Thanks for the links Jim. I'm having a look at them now.
Ross

[Jim Koepke]

Are rip saws as accurate enough when cutting shoulders?

A rip saw works fine for me on crosscuts. I do like a crosscut saw because it can leave a slightly smoother surface.

This is where filing your own saws can really be helpful. One of my most used saws is filed with just a little fleam. With a lot of old beat up saws to experiment on you can try different rake and fleam combinations to find a few that work best for your students.

It could also be a good subject in class to let the students try the different set ups.

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

Coming from an institutional job, I'd definitely order new and keep the old to see about refurbishing them -- win/win. I'd hit up Rob Lee to see if you could get a deal on the Veritas carcass saws for education/volume.

If/when you get around to sharpening the old saws (and eventually the new) you could go for more of a hybrid filing to make them more rip friendly while still doing a great job of cross cutting.

[paul cottingham]

They are accurate, but the cut will be less smooth than a dedicated crosscut saw. Remember, whatever saw you buy, they will be a little grabby and ragged in their cutting until they are broken in.

[Sam Stephens]

i would also learn how to sharpen the saws sooner rather than later. I'd suspect the bends/kinks in the saw plates could be tempered by students using sharp saws w/ a relaxed rake rather than dull saws w/ aggressive rake.

[David Eisenhauer]

I think the advice that leans towards the rip configuration may be due to the fact that (in general) a rip saw is easier to get started in a new cut as opposed to a crosscut configuration and, I would think, you would like to see the students have some early success when learning a new skill to keep their interest up. Sometimes when faced with too much adversity right off the bat (does that translate to Irish? Is Cricket only an English sport?) kids loose interest. A rip saw can perform crosscuts without any issue and many use only a rip saw in their shop. With your time constraint, I think you will probably need to order your saws soon and not have all the time in the world to look into refurbishing your older saws. Either the Veritas or the Pax will work, see if either one will cut you a deal of any kind.