Kudos to David Barron and his magnetic dovetail guides

[John Dorough]

I have searched this forum for posts about David Barron, (http://www.davidbarronfurniture.co.uk) and have found very few. I'm passing this along simply because I enjoy his videos on YouTube very much, and have just recently purchased two of his magnetic dovetail guides.

First, my purchase experience was extremely pleasant. David and I communicated by e-mail, he let me know full price, and I made payment with PayPal. On receipt of payment, David sent a personal confirming e-mail letting me know how long I should anticipate shipping to take between England and my home in Florida. He estimated up to 12 days; the guides arrived in 10.

Packaging for mailing was superior. Above and beyond the protection required. Additionally, David included a brief personally hand-written thank-you note.

The guides, themselves, exceeded my expectations. I anticipated they would be well-made; they are simply outstanding. Precision cut aluminum that appears to be aircraft grade. I am delighted with their heft, balance, fit and function.

I'm interested to learn whether any other SMC folk have used the guides. They will be an integral part of my first foray into hand-cut dovetails, and I am looking forward to the process. Whether I prove proficient over time is a subject for another post. My desire at this point is simply to give David a strong recommendation in terms of his dedication to his craft, and his commitment to exceeding his customers' expectations.

Best regards,

John

[Ray Bohn]

I have been drooling over many of his tools, but shipping costs have kept me from pulling the trigger- not that they aren't worth it, just a mental thing that I need to get over.

[Steven J Corpstein]

I also purchased one of David's guides. Before getting it, my dovetails looked like a hack had done them. After watching David's techniques and using his guide, they are pretty respectable now. I still need practice, but at least they look like dovetails now instead of chunks of wood and gaping slots.

[Jim Matthews]

instead of chunks of wood and gaping slots.

Hey, you're describing my best efforts there.
This is why God invented Crown molding and the mitered, half blind dovetail.

Lee Valley has a similar system available, without the hefty shipping costs.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=41718&cat=1,42884

[Scott Stafford]

Lee Valley has a similar system available, without the hefty shipping costs.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=41718&cat=1,42884[/QUOTE]


While I am a strong advocate of Rob Lee and Lee Valley's products. David Barron's dovetail guides are a superior product in this case. I have several of them.

In the past I cut my dovetails freehand with good results, but every now and then I would mis-cut one... sometimes ruining a drawer made of expensive material. Sure, there are ways of repairing such mistakes, but I would always know the repairs were there.

David Barron's guide and use of a Jananese dovetail saw may have converted me. For now, I have hung up my $300 western dovetail saw. My dovetails are now more consistent and often cleaner.

Even with the moderate shipping costs, the price of the products is still justified.


Just one man's opinion,

Scott in Montana

[Jim Matthews]

It's a fair assessment.

Have you compared them, side by each?
I found the Lee Valley clamp design too fiddly,
and used it freehand as DB shows his in use.

What keeps them from shifting laterally, when in use?

Once I got my backsaws to cut straight, this became less a requirement for me
but I work in Cherry that cost me less than $2.50 per board foot - mistakes aren't so costly.

Have you seen Jeff Miller's tenon cutting jig?
If that could be adapted to cut on a skew, it would be handy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJcaha_aq8c

[Brian Ashton]

Let this be our little secret but those jigs work just as good with a western backsaw as they do with jap saws.

[Sean Hughto]

Those are clean and idiot proof I suppose, but where's the fun in that? ;-)

Seriously. I favor the workmanship of risk in most woodowrking operations. Process is important. You can drive to the store or walk. Walking is slower, but you are more likely to meet a friend on the street or be invited up to a porch for a lemonade or to smell some flowers and so on. A less jigged approach also lets in more room for hand and happy accidents.

[Richard Krushner]

Have you seen Jeff Miller's tenon cutting jig?
If that could be adapted to cut on a skew, it would be handy.

There are jigs and then there are JIGS. What is with this? May be I am too idealistic about woodworking with hand tools, but surely this way over the top!

Jigs are helpful, David Barron's is one example. They give that little help to get things perfect, especially when working in expensive materials or if you are honing your skill. It does not detach you from the process completely; there is still technique. I am a novice and this would allow me perfect tenons, but with zero sense of achievement.

Seems like you would need a lot paraphernalia for this jig, various spacers etc.

I am starting to rant, I am sorry. I will be quiet.

[David Weaver]

Seriously. I favor the workmanship of risk in most woodowrking operations.

Agree, it also allows you to focus more on design and less on execution. The combination of variation and better design makes furniture that's got its own life.

[Simon MacGowen]

Those are clean and idiot proof I suppose, but where's the fun in that? ;-)

Seriously. I favor the workmanship of risk in most woodowrking operations. Process is important. You can drive to the store or walk. Walking is slower, but you are more likely to meet a friend on the street or be invited up to a porch for a lemonade or to smell some flowers and so on. A less jigged approach also lets in more room for hand and happy accidents.

Totally agreed. If one prefers perfect dovetails, why not go with a router and dovetail jig? Leigh jigs and Keller dovetail jigs work very well and I use them when making cabinets with lots of drawers.

David is a good teacher and sells some very nice accessories; his dovetail guides, however, aren't something I would recommend for a beginner. I would rather suggest a beginner take a hands-on dovetail joint class and learn to how to saw straight and plumb.

Simon

[Scott Stafford]

Totally agreed. If one prefers perfect dovetails, why not go with a router and dovetail jig? Leigh jigs and Keller dovetail jigs work very well and I use them when making cabinets with lots of drawers.

David is a good teacher and sells some very nice accessories; his dovetail guides, however, aren't something I would recommend for a beginner. I would rather suggest a beginner take a hands-on dovetail joint class and learn to how to saw straight and plumb.

Simon

In a world of accepted mediocrity, craftsmanship is endangered. We should be doing anything we can to encourage a next generation of people who strive to do their best.

Many people give up trying to hand cut dovetails out of sheer frustration. I see nothing wrong with jigs such as David Barron's. They lower the frustration level while building correct muscle memory. They support a "can do" attitude. Do we want people to succeed or quit in frustration? I wish I had started with a jig such as this.

David Charlesworth has said that he has poor sawing technique and therefore uses jigs and his bandsaw to cut his dovetails. Should his craftsmanship be questioned?

Jigs are appropriate at all levels IMHO.


Scott in Montana

[David Weaver]

Personally, I'd like to see people gain experience first (not quit or succeed) and then see if they need gadgets.

[Jim Matthews]

Not ranting, at all.

Jeff Miller both teaches noobs like myself and makes lots of furniture based on the same plans.
He'll use power tools when it's suited, and hand tools when they're faster.

This jig was invented when he needed to cut something on the order of 40 tenons, the same size for a chair project
and didn't want to do it on a bandsaw or tablesaw. (The way I heard it, the machines were engaged in other procedures in his small shop.)

This jig appeals to me in it's elemental approach to sawing straight.

I use a miter "box" and it operates on a similar principle.
There are some procedures that I do so infrequently that mastery is elusive.

A jig like this bridges the gap between my intention and my meager skills,
by eliminating one variable.

[Pat Barry]

Magnetic dovetail guides you say, I do a lot of work in pine, not ironwood. I don't see the benefit. JK

[Darren Brown]

I have David Barrons jig. The first time I used it I achieved tight fitting dovetails off the saw. As to the argument of using a router jig, you can't cut skinny pins with a router if that's your thing. The jig just helps you saw straight. That's it. You still have to accurately measure and mark your joints and chisel out your waste with accuracy to have a good result. There is no nobility in loose or ugly joinery no matter how its created. Sorry.

[Jim Koepke]

Sure, there are ways of repairing such mistakes, but I would always know the repairs were there.

The real trick is knowing they are there but not being able to find them.

I showed the mistakes on something I made for a woman to her. She didn't care since she was very happy with the overall piece.

So our errors and fixes bother us, but in the end it is usually only us the makers that care to any extent. It may be best to just let them be learning experiences.

jtk

[bob blakeborough]

If dt jigs make one happy than go for it, but in all reality, go back and look at the dovetails of the best craftsman of years past, and one cannot say that perfect dovetails are the mark of a good craftsman. They almost always looked pretty ragged compared to what people today think they should look like. People tend to overthink it, and with some regular simple practice, proficiency comes...

[Kees Heiden]

I don't believe for a second that a jig helps to build muscle memory. For my part, use what ever jig you like, but don't expect it to help freehand techniques.

[Brian Holcombe]

Suffering through and repairing ameteur work is what will help you to become a worthwhile craftsman, in my opinion. The only way to learn how to cut well with a saw is to make many cuts with that saw, then file it, then make even more cuts.

[Simon MacGowen]

In a world of accepted mediocrity, craftsmanship is endangered. We should be doing anything we can to encourage a next generation of people who strive to do their best.

Many people give up trying to hand cut dovetails out of sheer frustration. I see nothing wrong with jigs such as David Barron's. They lower the frustration level while building correct muscle memory. They support a "can do" attitude. Do we want people to succeed or quit in frustration? I wish I had started with a jig such as this.

David Charlesworth has said that he has poor sawing technique and therefore uses jigs and his bandsaw to cut his dovetails. Should his craftsmanship be questioned?

Jigs are appropriate at all levels IMHO.


Scott in Montana

Hey Scott,

I agree jigs help achieve results and lower frustrations in many cases. My point is really about the learning process: is the objective to get a joint made or to develop the sawing skill? No one suggests using jigs or power tools is tantamount to poor craftsmanship. All giants like Sam Maloof, Tage Frid, etc. used power tools, for example. The current debate is not much different from whether to use a sharpening jig or to develop free-hand skills. Many use both.

As few others have pointed out, feel free to use David's jig or LV's, but don't expect that would help you saw better once you take the jig out of the equation. The more one relies on using a saw guide, the more one is less likely to get out of the comfort zone and PRACTICE sawing free hand. Of course, there is nothing wrong about it as long as one understands it really isn't the same thing as cutting dovetails all by hand without using jigs. At the place I teach, jigs are used but not in any dovetail classes, or for that matter, in any M & T classes. We even do the layout with a sliding bevel.

Simon

[Scott Stafford]

I don't believe for a second that a jig helps to build muscle memory. For my part, use what ever jig you like, but don't expect it to help freehand techniques.

Please don't tell the professional golfers, baseball players, billiard players, and numerous other athletes that their jigs don't work... they might lose confidence in their game. :O)


Scott in Montana

[Sean Hughto]

angels sometimes dance jigs on the heads of pins

versus angles secured by jigs for tails and pins

debate

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/egregioustwaddle/files/2013/08/Giovanni-di-Paolo-Italian-painter-1403%E2%80%931482-Angels-Dancing-in-the-Sun.jpg

[David Barnett]

I don't believe for a second that a jig helps to build muscle memory. For my part, use what ever jig you like, but don't expect it to help freehand techniques.

Ashamed of his poorly-sawn tails,
He used magnets and templates and rails,
But because of these rigs,
This reliance on jigs,
Never rose above hammer and nails.

[Steve Voigt]

…is the objective to get a joint made or to develop the sawing skill?


I think this is really the key point. I'm not interested in acquiring furniture; I'm interested in acquiring skills. I've already built lots of furniture.
However, for lots of people, the goal is to build the piece, by whatever means. If that's your goal---and it's a totally worthy one--then jig away, I say. If your goal is to develop skills, put the jig aside. One is not morally superior to the other; it's just a matter of priorities.

[Steve Voigt]

Ashamed of his poorly-sawn tails,
He used magnets and templates and rails,
But because of these rigs,
This reliance on jigs,
Never rose above hammer and nails.

Too bad Karl Castle just retired. I'm imagining him reading this on Sunday morning.

[george wilson]

I think people should just learn skills. We never had all these jigs when I was learning skills. Nor did our fore fathers.

REALLY making things requires the mastering of skills. If we don't develop them,we may as well make furniture by snapping Lego blocks together.

Speaking of "Workmanship of risk" this post is the "post of risk". I am pretty sure I'm going to get flamed by the jig users. But,that's o.k.,at least I learned to work without them.

[Sam Stephens]

I think anyone who uses a guide is a cheater and their furniture should be hacked to pieces and burned!

Seriously, who cares (apparently people here do). Glad people find solace and some peace of mind in their tools/jigs etc.

Sam

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I've no beef with people making whatever choice they want in regards to any sort of jigs. I want whoever's making something to be happy making it and get there however they want.

I'm not convinced that a jig like this actually helps your free-hand sawing, however. Perhaps a properly done study with a decent sample size could prove this one way or the other, however.

My initial instinct is that it's a bit like training wheels on a bike - you have to do two things to move forward on a bike; balance it, and pedal it to propel yourself. With a child just learning, the keeping the bike upright is a lot harder skill for them to master than the turning a crank. The real roughy is learning to do both at once.

A lot of times, you put a kid on a bike with training wheels, they learn to zoom around real fast, but they're really just learning how to pedal. That's not the hard skill to learn. They aren't using the training wheels as a "safety" from falling over, they're using them as a crutch, and when you get around to removing the trainers, it's like starting over. This leads to the idea of the pedal-less push bikes that you see more of for young kids now. (Although I would be tempted to just buy the kid an appropriate bike and remove the drive train while they're learning) Kids scoot around by pushing, but they're learning the balance skill, and they can catch themselves because they're not trying to combine it with the pedaling skill. Learning the harder skill first before trying to combine the two in such a manner that generates risk seems an easier approach.

And that's kind of how I see these saw guides sometimes - you've really removed the harder skill, the aligning, and keeping plumb, and such, and begin to focus on the easier skill, sawing back and forth. I'm not sure the jig itself really helps your muscle memory, unless you're taking a much more focused approach to practicing.

Maybe I'm just seeing it wrong, I don't know.

It also makes me think of sharpening jigs - I have some, I use them at times, but the sharpening jig didn't really make me better at freehand sharpening. It did help me realize what "really sharp" really was, but with joinery, I don't really need the help to visualize that.

Again though - that's just my rambling on these things and their benefit to free-hand skills; not their value to a person who decides that's how they want to use them.

[george wilson]

I don't think it is up to us to "care" how other woodworkers we don't even know,how to do their work. I just think it is better for people to develop real skills instead of relying on crutches. They will end up being better craftsmen,and will have legitimate senses of accomplishment. But,it's up to them which path they want to take.

[Sean Hughto]

At one end of the spectrum you would do nothing but flip a switch and a pre-loaded log would enter a machine at one end and spit out a complete piece of furniture at the other. At the other end, you chop down a tree, split out or pit saw boards, dry them, plane them, design a piece, etc. etc. Basically all of us are at some point between on this spectrum. Where one draws the lines for themselves is up to them. Make furniture, be happy.

My point is that these choices certainly effect our pleasure in the process, our results, and our sense of accomplishment, among other things. Everybody has different needs on these fronts, so they will all make different choices. What is useful to talk about is how the choices have effects on pleasure, results, and so forth. Then people can make better choices for themselves, having been informed as to what the implications of those choices are.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

George alludes to good points; and I think the biggest point in favor of not learning to rely on jigs is that that development of skill will allow you do lots of other amazing things; often things that you can't accomplish without jigs, or at least without spending more time on jigs and guides than the actual project. Learning to saw dovetails by hand is going to be a great part of learning how to cut things by hand; once you can do that, you find you can do things like odd, compound cuts on oddly shaped pieces that would require complex jigs and work holding if you were trying to make it work on say, a table saw. Once you learn to sharpen freehand, you learn to be able to sharpen lots of things that will never fit in your honing guide; etc., etc. If you have no interest in learning to craft things by hand, and just want some drawers, maybe a dovetail guide is a good solution. But if you purposefully don't expand your skill set, but want to continue creating things, eventually you may very well find yourself banging against a wall you were ill-prepared for.

[Daniel Rode]

I tend to work more simply as I become more skilled. This, for me, is not at all unique to woodworking or even physical skills in general. It's not that I abandon things that automate, guide or reduce effort, it's just that these things need to provide a high and regular value to be part of my toolset. With greater skill I no longer need aids, so most fall into disuse over time.

IMO, simple tools in skilled hands often produce the finest work with the greatest efficiency.

I prefer to spend the time learning to work without guides. For me, there is a satisfaction knowing I cut a joint with nothing but a saw, a chisel and a marking knife. I might think differently if this was my vocation instead of my hobby, but it's not.

[Prashun Patel]

The OP's endorsement for the product should stand as is; the guide seems well-made and the service was good. Saying it's bad and putting yourselves on higher ground than he or others who purchase feels petulant and superior.

What's worse? a crutch, or the person who kicks the person using the crutch?

Be a craftsman, not a craps-on-your-fellow-man.

[Steve Voigt]

What's worse? a crutch, or the person who kicks the person using the crutch?


Ha! I'd say it depends!
If the guy with the crutch has a broken leg, then the crutch-kicker is a heel.
But if the guy with the crutch is perfectly healthy, and could walk just fine without it, then the guy who kicks the crutch away is doing him a service. ;)

[Darren Brown]

Prashun, that last line is with out a doubt the single best post I've ever read!

[Prashun Patel]

...only if the encrutched asks the other, "How do you like my crutch? I'm a good walker, huh?" But if he merely says, "I know a good crutch-maker", then shame on Jebbodiah Atkinson.

[John Dorough]

I just became aware of an article about David's guides that is both interesting and informative. Those interested in the guides might find it helpful.

Barron Dovetail Guide - Canadian Woodworking Magazine (https://www.canadianwoodworking.com/barron-dovetail-guide)

All the comments to my original post have been interesting; they show just how diverse SMC's membership is, in terms of well-reasoned-yet-divergent opinions.

Thanks for the perspectives,

John

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

The OP's endorsement for the product should stand as is; the guide seems well-made and the service was good. Saying it's bad and putting yourselves on higher ground than he or others who purchase feels petulant and superior.

What's worse? a crutch, or the person who kicks the person using the crutch?

Be a craftsman, not a craps-on-your-fellow-man.

I guess I wasn't clear in my posts, and it was something I was hoping to avoid coming across as - my caveat of


I've no beef with people making whatever choice they want in regards to any sort of jigs. I want whoever's making something to be happy making it and get there however they want.

may not have been enough.

I certainly meant no ill will towards John, the original poster, and while I don't think I have specific interest in the dovetail guide (although I could perhaps see use at times for a 90 degree version) I think his endorsement of a quality product by a small manufacturer is useful information and I was glad he shared. He was quite clear in his post that he was simply praising the service and product of a company and not whether the guides were a needed product. Lord knows we all buy and use things that aren't "needed" in the strictest sense.

I was more commenting on the idea that seemed to profess that the jigs themselves helped one to to be a better sawyer rather than simply more adept at completing the task using jigs. There is nothing wrong with either of those things, but it depends on what your personal goal is. I think other posters also voiced this opinion, or one that that personally didn't find jigs a satisfying solution for their own goals in the craft. I don't think I saw their posts the same way it seems Prashun has, but I can also be seeing Prashun's post wrong!

I hope I didn't come off as disparaging to the original poster, or any others like Scott who expressed their enjoyment of these jigs. If I did so, I apologize.

Prashun's mention of crutches also alludes to a point that I wonder about - there are woodworkers who may have diminished motor facilities or other types of conditions; perhaps a jig like this may allow them to keep doing something they love, (working wood with fewer machines) despite the types of conditions that might make a hobby like this difficult.

[george wilson]

O.K.,the attacks have started. I try to give good advice,and this is what I get from some people. No one is trying to kick anyone. I think Joshua's post #32 above is well worded,and says what I was trying to say: Learning skills helps you to develop other skills.It adds up,skill upon skill. That is how you become a good craftsman. No one handed me my skills on a silver platter. I had to EARN them just like anyone else. And I reaped the rewards for staying on it and learning those skills. It was also much harder to acquire those skills when I was young. There were few books available(I couldn't afford them anyway at that time.),and no internet to learn from. So,I went up many a blind alley,and wasted a lot of effort finding out the right way to do things.

Sorry,you just cannot baby yourself into becoming a good craftsman. That's just the way it is in any field.

Would you rather be a person who learns skills,or one who stays at a beginning level? It's your choice. This statement assumes that no one is disabled,of course,and has no hinderance with using tools.

[Zach Dillinger]

If dt jigs make one happy than go for it, but in all reality, go back and look at the dovetails of the best craftsman of years past, and one cannot say that perfect dovetails are the mark of a good craftsman. They almost always looked pretty ragged compared to what people today think they should look like. People tend to overthink it, and with some regular simple practice, proficiency comes...

+100. No need to overthink something as simple as dovetails.

[Prashun Patel]

Point taken, George. I'm humble to your experience.

It just struck me that OP wasn't asking for advice on a purchase; he was reflecting on a good experience. It just felt like rain on his parade. I respect and agree with your sentiment - just questioned its applicability here.

[paul cottingham]

I have chronic nerve pain (and numbness!) in my hands, so positioning my hand accurately for dovetail cutting is tough, to say the least. I find the Lee Valley "crutch" very useful, and it allows me to cut dovetails without pulling out my hair infrustration.
The intriguing thing is, I am developing muscle memory from using the jig, so I believe I eventually will not need it. In the meantime, cutting dovetails is much more pleasant, and less aggravating. If I had found the Barron jigs first, I am sure I would have tried them.
Just my 2cents.

[george wilson]

You are the person who actually needs it,Paul,as we have mentioned.

[paul cottingham]

You are the person who actually needs it,Paul,as we have mentioned.
Oops, must have missed that! :-)

[David Weaver]

This statement assumes that no one is disabled,of course,and has no hinderance with using tools.

You can't make a living selling woodworking tools just to the disabled, though. You've got to convince people that they need them instead of saying "just cut to this line". Tool sales are a beginners market, though. Nobody will make a living selling tools to advanced amateurs because they won't buy them.

If someone is using a western saw, I can't imagine that you could use the saw and let it wander offline if you literally took one stroke, checked, took one stroke, checked, etc. It would become immediately apparent after that what was going offline and where, and you could correct it quickly and then be able to saw at regular speed.

I'm personally getting less and less enamored with the japanese saws as my batch of little used hard tooth saws keep relieving themselves of tips of saws. Inevitably, as a user, you'll want to use those fine cutting saws for something that breaks the teeth off. If the blades are available shipped for $15 or something, I guess it's not that big of a deal, it just irks me. When I was closer to rank beginner and more cautious, I don't think I ever used the saws hard enough to damage any teeth.

[Brian Holcombe]

David, for the same reason I've reduced my japanese saws to a flush cut saw.

[Sean Hughto]

My flush cut saw -kugihiki - has become one of my most indispensable tools.

[Joe Leigh]

O.K.,the attacks have started. I try to give good advice,and this is what I get from some people. No one is trying to kick anyone.

I don't see anyone attacking anyone else. You said yourself why should anyone care how another woodworker arrives at his destination?
You got there your way and others get there theirs. For some it's the journey, for others it's the result. Two different paths, none wrong and none right.

What I am seeing, and what I invariably see in these types of threads, are the snide comments cleverly inserted such as "gadget", "gizmo", "crutch" and "not legitimate".

Those comments are uncalled for and always made by the same small group of posters.

[David Weaver]

Those comments are uncalled for and always made by the same small group of posters.

They are not uncalled for. They are honest opinions. This is not a forum that censors honest opinions that don't violate the TOS.

[Kees Heiden]

Yeah, handtool woodworking is very traditional, ages old in fact. No wonder there are a lot of strong opinions on stuff like this. And people write quickly without proofreading in forums. What I want to say, you just have to develop a bit of thick skin.

[Steve Voigt]

What I am seeing, and what I invariably see in these types of threads, are the snide comments cleverly inserted such as "gadget", "gizmo", "crutch" and "not legitimate".

Those comments are uncalled for and always made by the same small group of posters.

Huh. That's funny, I was just thinking how this thread has been remarkably civil, with most people going out of their way to acknowledge the legitimacy of the other side of the issue.
This is a wide-open internet forum, not a ladies social. Everyone is going to read things they disagree with. Kees is right; a thicker skin is called for.

[Joe Leigh]

I don't see how it affects anyone else. The OP started a thread to bring this tool to the forum's attention and mention how well made it is and how it has helped him. Nothing more. Belittling someone else's choice in a tool and dismissing it as not legitimate or as a crutch does nothing to further a conversation or the learning process.

Don't agree with the thread topic? Move along.

Silent thoughts work too.

[Mel Fulks]

Few apprentices have thought the way they were being told to do something was the best way. Until they mastered it. And guys who are paying to learn in an expensive class are not there to hear "DO IT THIS WAY OR GET OUT". The jig might spark some interest in a child or assist someone with reduced physical ability. For most a little practice would probably be better.

[Sean Hughto]

Joe, this brings up a lot of interesting questions.

- Does a thread "belong" to an OP? Or is an OP just someone who initiated a conversation by bringing up a topic and then the conversation belongs to all those who wish to add something, even tangents?
- Is expressing an alternative view or approach the same as "belittling" the orginally suggested approach? Isn't a discussion of alternatives the very definition of conversation and indeed, the learning process?
- Disagreeing is not the same as disrespect. We do not all have to agree in order to all get along or be friends, even. Indeed, it would be deadly dull in life if everyone agreed on everything all the time.
- Do you really wish this forum was full of threads with nothing but agreement?

[Simon MacGowen]

Joe, this brings up a lot of interesting questions.

- Does a thread "belong" to an OP? Or is an OP just someone who initiated a conversation by bringing up a topic and then the conversation belongs to all those who wish to add something, even tangents?
- Is expressing an alternative view or approach the same as "belittling" the orginally suggested approach? Isn't a discussion of alternatives the very definition of conversation and indeed, the learning process?
- Disagreeing is not the same as disrespect. We do not all have to agree in order to all get along or be friends, even. Indeed, it would be deadly dull in life if everyone agreed on everything all the time.
- Do you really wish this forum was full of threads with nothing but agreement?

Good points!

Internet forums are not much different from telephone conversations in which one party starts a topic and the other (usually one, unless it's a conference call) either listens (silent thoughts) or adds to the topic, in agreement or disagreement. As long as the exchanges are done in a civilized and educated manner, I don't see why one can only express a concurring view. As I see it, people are expressing their views on the pros of not using jigs in developing sawing skills and none has commented negatively on David's guides.

I suspect that if someone had started a thread saying the best way to develop sawing skills is not to use a jig, we would have had a discussion in which some would say a good way to learn sawing was to use jigs. That would have been acceptable in my book, too.

Simon

[Graham Haydon]

I think DB's jig is great. Reality is many folks don't have much time, potentialy cash rich and time poor. If the jig helps them get there and the jig works I think that's great. I'd rather someone use and aid and make a piece of furniture or whatever rather than get frustrated and give up. The trick is perhaps give it a try free hand rather than be drawn in by clever marketing to start with. If you can't get it right and really just want to make something then go for it. When and if you want to in the future give it a go free hand. If people buy way to much stuff when they start then hard luck! It's there money to waste/enjoy. Most of it fetches excellent money used.

[Joe Leigh]

Joe, this brings up a lot of interesting questions.

- Does a thread "belong" to an OP? Or is an OP just someone who initiated a conversation by bringing up a topic and then the conversation belongs to all those who wish to add something, even tangents?
- Is expressing an alternative view or approach the same as "belittling" the orginally suggested approach? Isn't a discussion of alternatives the very definition of conversation and indeed, the learning process?
- Disagreeing is not the same as disrespect. We do not all have to agree in order to all get along or be friends, even. Indeed, it would be deadly dull in life if everyone agreed on everything all the time.
- Do you really wish this forum was full of threads with nothing but agreement?

I don't believe that the thread belongs to the OP, in fact very few stay on track. Nothing new there, and really not the sticking point here.

Alternate views are what drive any forum and any form of conversation. It's the subtle use of words like crutch and gizmo in this particular thread that are used to denote inadequacy, and in turn belittle anyone who thinks this type of tool is necessary. It's the same few people that use those words that in my opinion fear any alternate approach. "This is the way I was taught, so this is the only right way"
Bunch of garbage if you ask me.

As for your last question, no, quite the opposite actually. I think there should be more leeway regarding disagreements.

[David Weaver]

I doubt there's any fear of alternate approaches. It's more a matter of expression of opinion when you've been there and done that (learned and feared as a beginner that you might not be able to do something, only to find with experience that it isn't really an issue).

If there wasn't a way to generate money using these devices, I don't think they'd exist, and the users of them would be better off working straight away to figure out what their sawing problem is.

There is an enormous difference by offering a helpful opinion vs. just sitting on a pole barking at those lower down as they pass by. The latter rarely happens here. Negative honest opinions are one of the things lacking most when you're a beginner, especially if you get sucked into the WIA crowd where everyone is peddling something to you, be it a whiz bang never fail plane, an expensive saw that's "necessary" to do fine work, or a whole bunch of marking tools, squares and gauges, etc. There is a "professional courtesy" provided among folks in that group that is not helpful for a beginner who really does want to know if they really need have some tool, crutch, gizmo or gadget.

[george wilson]

I thought we were supposed to leave each other alone,Joe. And,we are all entitled to give our opinions until Putin annexes us.:)

[Joe Leigh]

If there wasn't a way to generate money using these devices, I don't think they'd exist, and the users of them would be better off working straight away to figure out what their sawing problem is.


Maybe not but there also has to be a perceived need. I thought the important thing was to actually produce wooden items and not necessarily proceed in the same manner as someone who died 300 years ago.
Besides, if it gives the OP more confidence or produces a finer result for him, does anything else really matter?

[David Weaver]

This confidence thing is interesting to me. there's all sorts of things that I don't do very well in woodworking, and it's not confidence that I want first, I want the skill. That's my personal preference.

There are certainly things that I'd say don't worry how you do it, like the lute rose that george carved - if you could do that by hand, eye and mind, more power to you no matter how you do it. But we are talking about one of the fundamentally easiest things to do in woodworking where mastery of a simple skill involved is one that can be spun off and used in many other places.

If the aim is to make a case with otherwise completely machine dimensioned and sanded, etc, parts, where the only thing done by hand is the dovetails, then I guess I don't see what difference it really makes. Sawing tenons, working to a line, etc, is never going to be that important.

If the objective is to learn to cut all kinds of joints, work to a line, mark things, etc, then we would be far better served trying to at least get relatively close to the same manner as those who died 300 years ago.

I did a survey of the dovetails in my parents' furniture last year. Unfortunately, I took pictures with my cell phone instead of a camera and they turned out to be horrible pictures. As often as we do like to say dovetails are not perfect, they definitely weren't perfect, but every one of them was at least what I'd call handsomely done and in good proportion. The proportion and the handsomeness was FAR more important than whether or not each line was precisely sawn. I did not see gaps in them in this furniture (nearly ever piece of furniture had hand done half blinds in the front and through dovetails in the back - this all being furniture 100 years old or older, where the joints were done by hand, but the wood was probably planed by a planer - mid grade furniture, something a commoner probably wouldn't have had but by no means furniture for the elites only.

The interesting thing about it is, like I said, it was all sawn well, but no perfectly in every instance, BUT the proportions of the dovetails and drawer sides were far nicer than most of the stuff we are turning out as amateurs - in terms of most of what I see here. And it was the type of furniture that we will all make at some point, or at least most of us will, because it had nice subtle detail like flush drawers and maybe some basic line inlay in some of it, but it didn't have elaborate carving or anything like that.

Now, on the flip side of all of this stuff, there were aspects about these drawers that would've made them a little easier than a lot of the amateur stuff that's done - there were no sides thicker than half inch, and there was no really hard wood used in any of them. But the evidence of their execution was that they were done at speed and with skill. No big gaps, and the worst offenses I saw in them were a few stray overcuts from saws.

It's my opinion that if one wants to migrate past just the joints these gadgets, jigs, gizmos and crutches help with, then the skills need to be had first. If one does not (perhaps only cutting through dovetails is all some folks want out of hand tools), then no big deal.

That's my opinion, it may not be seen as helpful to someone with sawing trouble, but I already provide my solution - one saw stroke at a time to the side of a line - it'll be hard to get off course doing that, and easier than fiddling with a gadget, and it's easier to find the gadget you need in your drawers when the gadget is....no gadget. Speed can be increased as results are reasonable. Sort of the same concept that works in an awful lot of places (like music for example)....learn to go slow before you go fast.

[Shawn Pixley]

So following this logic that sawing to a line is a necessary skill (please note I am not arguing against this), does a miterbox fall onto the "gadget" category with the dovetail guides?

[paul cottingham]

Shawn, your tag line seems to fit well with the inevitable result of your question......

And a fine question it is too.....

[David Weaver]

I guess it would depend. I'm not quite sure where it's necessary. I bought one several years ago and have had a difficult time figuring out where it's useful.

I'd be interested in hearing how often warren Mickley uses one. They strike me as being a carpenter's tool.

[Joe Leigh]

Interesting points Dave. In just about every antique example of casework that I've seen in the age group you mentioned, my hand cut dovetails (no crutch needed) are much more refined and tighter. My question is did I get too good at it? Should I not have practiced so much? Was that wasted time? Of course not.

So why hold the drawer joinery on some hundred year old sideboard as the benchmark? Am I supposed to progress only as far as that and no further?

Ive seen many examples of David Barron's work. He is a very highly skilled woodworker, meticulous and precise. Any tool, his or another's, that gets people more involved in learning about woodworking and expanding their skillset to include handwork is a good thing.

[Shawn Pixley]

I've always been thought of as a trouble-maker...

[David Barnett]

In your fatwa of forum machismo,
You adjure against gadget and gizmo,
So we bullies should silence,
Our lexical violence,
Keep quiet and mind our own biz mo'.

[Mel Fulks]

David, that is funny! Reminds me of Ogden Nash.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I think of a miter box more as a carpenter's tool, but I think were it really shines repeating a lot of pieces of the same length, and making accurate angles (whether or 90 degrees or otherwise) without marking; I think a lot of us could probably make the majority of the cuts a miter box does without one, and to that level of accuracy, but I would need to mark them first to cut to level of accuracy. I can get pretty close to 90 without marking across the stock if things are narrow, (and being narrow, just shooting the edge is pretty quick to fix any out of square) but grabbing a square and a knife or pencil is needed for anything wider. If you're doing a lot of sawing, being able to remove that marking step and just work off a tick mark could make things faster. If you're marking parts off of each other or working in another fashion, it's less of a time saver. Just my opinion, I s'pose.

[David Weaver]

Interesting points Dave. In just about every antique example of casework that I've seen in the age group you mentioned, my hand cut dovetails (no crutch needed) are much more refined and tighter. My question is did I get too good at it? Should I not have practiced so much? Was that wasted time? Of course not.

So why hold the drawer joinery on some hundred year old sideboard as the benchmark? Am I supposed to progress only as far as that and no further?

Ive seen many examples of David Barron's work. He is a very highly skilled woodworker, meticulous and precise. Any tool, his or another's, that gets people more involved in learning about woodworking and expanding their skillset to include handwork is a good thing.

it's the benchmark because the proportions are ideal, well thought out and not just a willy nilly thought in an amateur woodworker's fleeting moment of design.

You can choose how you like to make yours, how tidy, how long you want to take, whether or not you want them to show. Someone who hasn't got the experience to decide yet whether or not theirs are neat enough really is, in my opinion, barking up the wrong tree looking for power tool fit of the joints - they will almost certainly get close to that just with experience. and as tight as they want to go if they are willing to slow down.

There is a fork in the road. In one direction, you look at your problem and solve it (knowing you can because thousands and thousands of others have), or you lease/purchase a solution of a different type. This is a precedent that gets set. The first builds a skill, and the second builds a bad habit.

[David Weaver]

In your fatwa of forum machismo,
You adjure against gadget and gizmo,
So we bullies should silence,
Our lexical violence,
Keep quiet and mind our own biz mo'.

Excellent. Of course, we've come to expect it, but excellent!

[george wilson]

You are an educated man,Barnett!!!!:)

[Steve Voigt]

In your fatwa of forum machismo,
You adjure against gadget and gizmo,
So we bullies should silence,
Our lexical violence,
Keep quiet and mind our own biz mo'.

David, I've submitted a request to the moderators of the forum that they delete any posts from you that are not in anapestic meter.

[Daniel Rode]

You make a good point. If one's goal is to produce wooden items as quickly and efficiently as possible, then one set of tools, techniques and skills might fit better than another. For speed and efficiency, A CNC router is hard to beat. On a smaller, cheaper scale a set of modern power tools might be fast and efficient.

But for me, speed and efficiency don't count for much. I want to learn and practice the skills that may well have been employed by a craftsman 100 or 300 years ago. In my slow, plodding, clumsy way I want to try to become a craftsman. This is, to me, completely distinct from the operatives that interacted with machines beginning with the industrial revolution. It's a nostalgic desire that looks back to a lost age.

Because this is 2014 and because the time I can devote to woodworking is limited, I'm not against guides, aides or automation. In fact, I make significant use of power tools so I can focus on specific types of skills. I pick and choose as I see fit. Some might suggest that I should do it all with hand tools. They can do what they please in their own shops :)

FWIW, I've yet to use a guide that gave me any sort of confidence. They might give a finer result at first but in the long run I believe working without guides is what builds confidence and fine work is usually the result of highly skilled hands not highly refined aides. Repetition seems to be the thing that gives me confidence and finer results.



Maybe not but there also has to be a perceived need. I thought the important thing was to actually produce wooden items and not necessarily proceed in the same manner as someone who died 300 years ago.
Besides, if it gives the OP more confidence or produces a finer result for him, does anything else really matter?

[george wilson]

A good post,Dan. I have never been interested in just wanting to produce more products. The Chinese and Japanese would beat me anyway!!

My work has always been individual in nature. I never made the same guitar twice. Only once did I ever make exactly the same tool twice(on my own time). Of course,I was PAID to do exactly that,but,you can't have everything your own way!! not what I enjoyed the most. Like you,my goal has always been to be as good a craftsman as possible,though,if I were more production minded,I'd have made a lot more money. That was not my goal either.

[Brian Ashton]

I think people should just learn skills. We never had all these jigs when I was learning skills. Nor did our fore fathers.

REALLY making things requires the mastering of skills. If we don't develop them,we may as well make furniture by snapping Lego blocks together.

Speaking of "Workmanship of risk" this post is the "post of risk". I am pretty sure I'm going to get flamed by the jig users. But,that's o.k.,at least I learned to work without them.


Ya, and you probably walked to school in the snow barefoot... up hill both ways.

[Brian Ashton]

They are not uncalled for. They are honest opinions. This is not a forum that censors honest opinions that don't violate the TOS.


You forgot to insert obtuse honest opinions.

[Sean Hughto]

Wow, Brian, quite aggressive, not terribly clever, but certainly hostile enough. So then, is David Barron a mate?

[Zach Dillinger]

There must be something in the air lately. There have been an abnormally large number of argumentative threads here, on another popular forum, and even on the very civil Old Tools Mailing list. What gives?

For the record, I'm anti-jig / gizmo / crutch so I don't use them, but to each his own. For my part, I think that true craftsmanship and excellence comes from skill-building and observing the techniques and patterns of those who came before when it comes to period work. When it comes to modern stuff, you might as well use jigs if you can't build the skill, as it makes no difference to the final product whether your arm or a universal motor cuts the joint. Not that anyone cares what I think (heck, I don't even care what I think half the time). :)

[David Barnett]

There must be something in the air lately.

Blame it on the Cardinal Grand Cross that culminated in late April. It's gonna be a long decade I tell ya'.

[Zach Dillinger]

Blame it on the Cardinal Grand Cross that culminated in late April. It's gonna be a long decade I tell ya'.

I might just have to sit this decade out. Good game everyone, thanks for coming out :)

[Brian Ashton]

Wow, Brian, quite aggressive, not terribly clever, but certainly hostile enough. So then, is David Barron a mate?

You could say it's aggressive but it's an "honest opinion". Anyone that makes such judgements on others desires to do things the way they do is being deliberately ignorant (obtuse) and refusing to understand that there are a million ways to do things. The expert's ways are no more right than the novice's ways are wrong, they're simply different.

Honestly go out and ask 100 "experts" on how they cut dovetails and you'll get an unbelievable phalyc measuring contest and 100 different ways of doing it. And! according to each of those "experts" there's only one best method - theirs. Seen it here a few times when the experts lock horns with each other.

[Sean Hughto]

One can have an honest opinion that freehand sawing skill conveys more advantages than those conveyed by the use of a jig.

And one can have an honest opinion that such an opinion is deliberately ignorant.

But the first opinion has rational support and is not personal. Your opinion, honest or not, is nothing more than a personal attack.

[george wilson]

Brian, You know nothing about my early life,or how hard I had to work to get where I am. Try learning artistic skills in a cultural vacuum like 1950's Alaska. The only skills up there were fishing and logging.

[David Weaver]

Sean is correct, I provided my opinion because I think it's helpful for someone who doesn't have the experience to know otherwise. As far as the "all answers and all ways are equally correct, just different", that's not an argument I or anyone else should ever accept.

When people cut dovetails to make furniture, and not to make studio pieces that they could shop around looking for a deep pocket, I'd imagine the methods they used were remarkably similar.

[Brian Ashton]

One can have an honest opinion that freehand sawing skill conveys more advantages than those conveyed by the use of a jig.

And one can have an honest opinion that such an opinion is deliberately ignorant.

But the first opinion has rational support and is not personal. Your opinion, honest or not, is nothing more than a personal attack.

And others can convey: Who cares, there's lots of ways to do things where none are right or wrong, but some maybe faster - that's all.

Personal attack is your opinion, you have no idea what is going through my head when I write it. So as for merit or rational support you have none.

Would calling someone stupid for exhibiting poor judgement be a personal attack? Considering that's what the word means. No more than saying someone is refusing to accept others ways of doing things have any sort of validity is showing how obtuse they are.

[Simon MacGowen]

This is what I am going to share with my next class of students:

Tails First or Pins First?

Cross that out...

Guides or No Guides!

Whoever invented the dovetail joints had to be an evil person.

Simon

[george wilson]

I think it is pretty clear that malice is going through your head,Brian. All I have done is try to point out the correct way to build skills. I sluff off your attack,and the other too. My work is out there for all to see. It shows that my opinion is worthwhile. If you do not want to take advantage of my counsel,it is your loss. What's really wrong ? Jealousy ? I have been criticized here. My movie has been criticized,and my opinions. Well,maybe if you types are lucky,someone will spend half a million documenting your talents.

My opinion,and the same shared by others,that learning skills begets other skills,is a perfectly valid one. It is not logical to assume that using training aids is going to benefit skill development better than practicing until you can actually do the job.

Zach and Sean,your fine work shows that you guys have developed honest and useful skills.

P.S.: I see your initial attack post has vanished,Brian.

[Brian Ashton]

Brian, You know nothing about my early life,or how hard I had to work to get where I am. Try learning artistic skills in a cultural vacuum like 1950's Alaska. The only skills up there were fishing and logging.

You're right, and for the life of me I don't know why I would... But I don't know what that has to do with bagging on someone that likes to use jigs or do it old school.

I'm gonna be honest here... I read where you often say your ways are the best ways because you have all that experience. Your probably right, your body of work more than backs that up. But what I believe you fail to see is that yours isn't the only way of doing things. And then you go on to say that what you said will garner you some backlash... Honestly, what's the point in even saying it then!

There's an individual on this and many other forums that is a prolific documentor of his woodworking journey. He, over the years that I have observed him, copt a lot of abuse and infuriated many "experts" (I know I've hurled a few "how can you say that" at the screen when reading his posts) because he wasn't doing things the "right" way... For myself I probably have about 30 years on him in woodworking experience. But of all the people i have observed, including you (and you have some amazing pedigree), over quite a few years of reading woodworking forums he is the one I've learnt the most from. And the only thing he's taught me is: get over it, there's more than one way to cut a dovetail. And to enjoy your journey as you work through the various challenges you face along it. It's probably the reason I like woodworking again.

[David Weaver]

This is what I am going to share with my next class of students:

Tails First or Pins First?

Cross that out...

Guides or No Guides!

Whoever invented the dovetail joints had to be an evil person.

Simon

Yeah, pins and tails makes no difference. Guides or no guides is a better replacement argument for that. And maybe pin size vs tail size, drawer thickness, etc.

[David Weaver]

You're right, and for the life of me I don't know why I would... But I don't know what that has to do with bagging on someone that likes to use jigs or do it old school.

I'm gonna be honest here... I read often where you often say your ways are the best ways because you have all that experience. Your probably right, your body of work more than backs that up. But what I believe you fail to see is that yours isn't the only way of doing things. And then you go on to say that what you said will garner you some backlash... Honestly, what's the point in even saying it then!

There's an individual on this and many other forums that is a prolific documentor of his woodworking journey. He, over the years that I have observed him, copt a lot of abuse and infuriated many "experts" (I know I've hurled a few "how can you say that" at the screen when reading his posts) because he wasn't doing things the "right" way... For myself I probably have about 30 years on him in woodworking experience. But of all the people i have observed, including you (and you have some amazing pedigree), over quite a few years of reading woodworking forums he is the one I've learnt the most from. And the only thing he's taught me is: get over it, there's more than one way to cut a dovetail. And to enjoy your journey as you work through the various challenges you face along it. It's probably the reason I like woodworking again.

This ignores the central issue here. When someone who hasn't woodworked for 30 years asks the question about how they should do something, your response would be "it doesn't matter, whatever way you enjoy". That's not a helpful answer, especially if someone hasn't figured out what they enjoy and they only know at that point they're not enjoying the results they're getting.

George almost single handedly has helped many of us understand design. And not to a point where we have a list of "george's rules" and can't tell the difference, but to where we can appreciate and apply good design concepts independently. There are several folks who like to criticize him regularly for being honest and helpful because they don't like the way it's delivered - and that is significantly less helpful than an otherwise helpful post that is perceived to not be delivered in a way someone likes.

[george wilson]

Not bagging,offering a better,more constructive alternative. Sorry if you can't grasp that. Everyone's free to remain a hobbiest if they want to. We all have different goals. For some,woodworking is just a hobby. For me,it was my life's work,and I have been called upon to do some pretty demanding work. But,if you really want to get somewhere(that is where I am coming from,it never occurs to me to just be a hobbiest),learn to use tools correctly and accurately.

But,feel free to ignore my advice. After all,it is obviously the intelligent thing to do.

[Joe Leigh]

But,feel free to ignore my advice. After all,it is obviously the intelligent thing to do.


This is where you lose a lot of folks here. That need to get some snide comment in. It's like you can't help yourself. As if any non George method cannot possibly be an intelligent one. Too bad really because you probably do have a lot to share except you're too busy blowing your own horn.

[David Weaver]

D2 of the TOS. I think you should consider deleting your post, Joe. I can't find where you joined this thread other than to criticize George in a way that's not TOS consistent. I'll help you get it deleted if you can't manage it.

[Jim Neeley]

There must be something in the air lately. There have been an abnormally large number of argumentative threads here, on another popular forum, and even on the very civil Old Tools Mailing list. What gives?

==snip==

Your endgrain is like your bellybutton. Yes, I know you have it. No, I don't want to see it.

Ask me why I use hand tools, and I'll tell you

Just try asking about bellybuttons, Zach. :eek: :-)

Jim

[David Barnett]

...except you're too busy blowing your own horn.

If George is blowing his own horn, it's likely of his own design and making.

[Matt Owen]

Isn't a handplane a jig to hold a chisel? If so, why is it ok to use those and not dovetail guides. You could definitely get more skill by flattening a board with a chisel than with a plane.

I've always been told that the best way to do something is whatever way works for you, and I've found that to be sound advice.

[george wilson]

Joe,you attacked me with the first post you ever made to me. I have never done anything to you. You have just decided to hate me,and have pursued this ever since.

I'll admit my comment was a little snide because I am tired of being attacked by you and Brian. If you don't agree with my position on something,you can make yourself understood without calling me obtuse,ignorant, and making other remarks.

I am certainly ignorant of many things,but woodworking is not one of them.

Matt,there is such a thing as carrying a subject to too extreme a length. At least use an adze. I have seen remarkably accurate adzed surface on Haida dugout canoes in Alaska. Their chipping so even and consistent,they look as if they were done with some type of machine.


A Japanese WWII tool kit I read about did contain a plane body into which a wide chisel was inserted as a blade,to save weight and space,and likely too,to conserve scanty resources available during the war. There is a special type of Japanese tool that is a chisel of sorts. It looks like a spear blade with sharp edges. It's used as a sort of plane. David or some other Japanese tool user can better identify it.

[Brian Ashton]

This ignores the central issue here. When someone who hasn't woodworked for 30 years asks the question about how they should do something, your response would be "it doesn't matter, whatever way you enjoy". That's not a helpful answer, especially if someone hasn't figured out what they enjoy and they only know at that point they're not enjoying the results they're getting.

George almost single handedly has helped many of us understand design. And not to a point where we have a list of "george's rules" and can't tell the difference, but to where we can appreciate and apply good design concepts independently. There are several folks who like to criticize him regularly for being honest and helpful because they don't like the way it's delivered - and that is significantly less helpful than an otherwise helpful post that is perceived to not be delivered in a way someone likes.

But the part of that that you are missing is most aren't asking for someone to say get skilled up in any particular technique. Most are often asking about using a jig of sorts... For me, at least, it's obvious that they don't want to go through an apprenticeship to do what ever it is they're trying to do... They want to simply make or do something now. And the various jigs out there go a long way to facilitate this for them. Or they simply like the journey of experimentation and discovery on their terms... I for one can't understand why anyone would need a sharpening jig that allows for 1/2 degree of precision. If I'm within a few degrees I happy. But that is my problem not theirs. If it works for them, then so be it. And if my answer can't address specifically what they want, but instead schools them on the art of sharpening, sawing... then it's a waste of their time and does nothing to address what they've asked.

It's about as useless an answer as a person posting a question about needing help with windows XP and some one posts buy a mac. The poster is left shaking their head and thinking what's the point of even writing such an answer as that...

[Joe Leigh]

Thanks Dave but I think not. I made a post about David Barrons work and the high quality of it. I also mentioned that I don't use his guides though they look well thought out and made. Those were on topic posts.

As for George, it seems I'm far from alone in my distaste for some of his comments, but I doubt the moderators will do much about it. That's fine. Doesn't mean we can't disagree with him.

As for Mr. Barron, I am a fan of his work and frequently visit his blog as it contains a variety of ideas and approaches. He also has a very humble way of presenting his viewpoints. Quite refreshing actually.

[David Weaver]

It doesn't take an apprenticeship to learn to saw to a line.

[David Weaver]

A plane is not a jig for a chisel, and a chisel is not a plane. That's an overused line that ignores the importance of a plane's design.

And it doesn't clarify anything about why it's important or not important to be able to use a hand saw and saw to a line for anyone potentially capable.

[Joe Leigh]

Joe,you attacked me with the first post you ever made to me. I have never done anything to you. You have just decided to hate me...

I can't imagine myself caring enough to feel anything about you personally. You made a snide comment and got called out on it. Get over yourself.

David Barron is a fine tool maker and craftsman who makes well thought out tools to help all level of woodworkers. That is the focus of this thread. Everything else is irrelevant.

[george wilson]

I think you must care,because you keep following me around,and nearly all of your posts in this whole thread have been attacks upon me.

[Brian Ashton]

Not bagging,offering a better,more constructive alternative. Sorry if you can't grasp that. Everyone's free to remain a hobbiest if they want to. We all have different goals. For some,woodworking is just a hobby. For me,it was my life's work,and I have been called upon to do some pretty demanding work. But,if you really want to get somewhere(that is where I am coming from,it never occurs to me to just be a hobbiest),learn to use tools correctly and accurately.

But,feel free to ignore my advice. After all,it is obviously the intelligent thing to do.

Yes, my apologies that was a bad choice of word. Honestly I know what you're trying to achieve, I'm one of the many who when we see you have posted we read them through. The best analogy I can say is you're a thorough bred race horse and the rest of us are miniature ponies. So when one of us asks how to do something you need to bring it down to there level. Most here won't get more than a couple hours a week at the bench, so saying you need to put in the time to gain the skill is going to lose them most every time.

[Matt Owen]

A plane is not a jig for a chisel, and a chisel is not a plane. That's an overused line that ignores the importance of a plane's design.

And it doesn't clarify anything about why it's important or not important to be able to use a hand saw and saw to a line for anyone potentially capable.

I didn't say a chisel was a plane. A plane is a jig to hold a blade (chisel) to easily flatten a board. It makes the job of flattening a board much easier than doing it with just the blade.

It's only important to learn to saw to a line if you want it to be important. If that's not a skill you care to master then you can use a guide to help. There's nothing wrong with that.

[george wilson]

Brian,there are some very skilled woodworkers here. All you have to do to see some very nice work is peruse the forum where they show projects that members have made,or the carving forum,or the musical instrument forum. Certainly some very fine work there.

Yes,there are areas where I am interested in developing skills only to a point,like in reloading ammunition. I just can't get so serious about that I'm trickling every grain of powder into each cartridge case,and weighing them in order to shoot super tight groups at hundreds of yards. I don't have a range that long to shoot in anyway. Mostly,I want to use care to not blow a gun up. A powder measure and the correct powder will do well enough. but,reloading is not an artistic pursuit. Something to do to save money more than anything else as far as I'm invested.

[Brian Ashton]

I'll admit my comment was a little snide because I am tired of being attacked by you and Brian. If you don't agree with my position on something,you can make yourself understood without calling me obtuse,ignorant, and making other remarks.



I guess I still don't see how being said you were obtuse was wrong. The OP says they like the jig and it makes their hobby easier... And you have ignored that, and say they should ditch the jigs, put in the time and learn to do dovetails the right way, buy hand... You are clearly ignoring the OP's point. They don't want to cut hundreds of dovetails to become expert in them, they want them to work now, and the jigs helps with that.

[george wilson]

I think I conceded that point in my last post,Brian. About my stance in reloading. I am just a lot more passionate about woodworking.

[Brian Ashton]

Brian,there are some very skilled woodworkers here. All you have to do to see some very nice work is peruse the forum where they show projects that members have made,or the carving forum,or the musical instrument forum. Certainly some very fine work there.

Yes,there are areas where I am interested in developing skills only to a point,like in reloading ammunition. I just can't get so serious about that I'm trickling every grain of powder into each cartridge case,and weighing them in order to shoot super tight groups at hundreds of yards. I don't have a range that long to shoot in anyway. Mostly,I want to use care to not blow a gun up. A powder measure and the correct powder will do well enough. but,reloading is not an artistic pursuit. Something to do to save money more than anything else as far as I'm invested.

I agree, but lets be honest. Of the active members I'd say there are a handful that are exceptional. Even if there were 10,000 active members, out of the 84000 total, I'd say that less than 200 would be considered exceptional; in fact I'd hazard a guess that it would be less then 100.

99% of those here are hobbyists with skill levels that range from butchers to very competent craftsmen.

[Brian Ashton]

I think I conceded that point in my last post,Brian. About my stance in reloading. I am just a lot more passionate about woodworking.


Ya I got it now. Had to do a re-read.

[David Barnett]

I can't imagine myself caring enough to feel anything about you personally. You made a snide comment and got called out on it. Get over yourself.

Such churlish and pedantic adherence to mediocrity is one reason I abstained from posting for several months, and is the reason I'm likely to withdraw for even longer this time. I can well believe George sets the bar beyond your aspirations, talents, capabilities and discipline, but disparaging his accomplishments, and yes, even his hard-won satisfaction in recalling them speaks volumes. Poo-poo his generosity at your own peril.

I, too, am no slouch at Craft (with a majuscule "C"—right), and regard what George shares with admiration and respect, and do not gladly suffer those of lesser attainment who wish to discourse only at their level.

To you, for your endeavors, I award this Participation Medal, for what it's worth. Wear it proudly.

[Brian Ashton]

It doesn't take an apprenticeship to learn to saw to a line.


For you that's probably true. But I've met people that haven't developed high levels of dexterity. Not because they have some sort of affliction but simply because they were never the physical type. So having the intrinsic ability to consistently hold a saw or chisel at a 90 degree angle to the wood is nearly impossible to them. Or hold a chisel on a stone at a + - 30 degree angle without rounding the edge just isn't possible... Then why not use jigs.

[george wilson]

Brian,I must say that I just do not participate in things that I truly suck at. What is the point? I am not a good basketball player,in spite of being quite tall,so I haven't played it since the last time I HAD to in high school physical education classes. I can't swim worth 2 cents. My bones are too heavy to allow me to float. I never could pass swimming in college Phys ed. I never ever swim now.

I find it difficult to see why someone who is just terrible at some activity would persist in it. For me,at least,with lack of an ability comes lack of interest.

In college,we had a guy who was so miserable at doing skilled work of any kind (In the Industrial Arts program we were in) He just quit,and pursued some other field. All my fellow students were retired military guys going to college on the G.I. bill. I was the only student fresh out of high school. I would have thought that a middle aged,graying guy would already have found out that he was not cut out for teaching woodworking.

The old saying "If you can't stand the heat,get out of the kitchen" SORT of fits here.

[James Conrad]

I don't know George or David personally, however, what I believe is that they come from a place of trying to help. Perhaps it's not all fuzzy bunnies, rainbows and a world where you don't keep score on the pitch, but it is meant to help in a constructive way. When you put your ego aside, you often learn something new.

[Sean Hughto]

Good grief, don't punish the rest of us for these idjits' conduct. Stick around. I enjoy your contributions.

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-never-mind-the-bollocks-6.png

[David Barnett]

They don't want to cut hundreds of dovetails to become expert in them they want them to work now, and the jigs helps with that.

I see your point. Why waste your time learning to match the hatch, improving and tying your fly patterns then finessing your cast and presentation when you can just dynamite the damned trout and put them on the table.

[Steve Voigt]

Such churlish and pedantic adherence to mediocrity is one reason I abstained from posting for several months, and is the reason I'm likely to withdraw for even longer this time.

Nah. Just withdraw from the thread, not the forum. Typically, these self-appointed Protectors of Forum Decorum only show up very late in the thread, after all the substantive comments have already been made. If I followed my own advice I would have bailed 30 posts ago.

[Jim Neeley]

Dip netting keeps the meat firmer.. unless you want fish soup! :->

[David Weaver]

I didn't say a chisel was a plane. A plane is a jig to hold a blade (chisel) to easily flatten a board. It makes the job of flattening a board much easier than doing it with just the blade.

It's only important to learn to saw to a line if you want it to be important. If that's not a skill you care to master then you can use a guide to help. There's nothing wrong with that.

It would be cumbersome to use a jig to make general saw cuts. If the only thing anyone ever wants to do is dovetails, then using a jig is fine. It's extremely unlikely to be the only saw cut one will make, and many others do not lend themselves well to jigs.

But again, the commentary about a plane just being a "jig" to hold an iron is a gross oversimplification. The design of the plane is more important than the specifications of the iron.

As to the earlier issue about skills, sawing to a line is a useful skill. Useful in that you can saw to any line you can mark if the saw can reach it. Planing a board with a chisel is not a useful skill, nor is it practical. It goes back to seeing what people did when they made a living making mid-range furniture (because most of us will never come close to making a good representation of high end professionally done furniture from 250 years ago, me included.

[David Weaver]

, and is the reason I'm likely to withdraw for even longer this time.

It would be a shame. I look forward to, and learn from them all. Who else is going to point me to the useful cherts?

[John Keeton]

The manner in which some of these threads deteriorate amazes me. Generally, it would seem that woodworkers, like other medium crafts (metal, clay) usually find themselves in one of three groups. Either you are primarily interested in the final outcome, simply do it for the therapeutic value, or you aspire to achieve excellence. Folks that are interested only in the outcome often become the source for automation, including anything from jigs to a factory process. Those that are simply into the therapeutic aspect don't care so much about the outcome or achieving a higher level of accomplishment, and simply gain enjoyment from the process itself - and that is OK.

But, the very fact that one is viewing or posting in the Neander forum would tend to place them in the group striving for excellence, or at the least, interested in how others have done that. The observation that few ever obtain the degree of skill and accomplishment as George may be accurate, but were it not for folks like George desiring to share not only what can be achieved, but how to achieve it, then we would find ourselves swirling in a mire of hopeless mediocrity.

For goodness sake, leave room for all groups and admire and be tolerant of those that push all of us to demand from ourselves excellence. If you find yourself in one of the other groups, then just enjoy the fact that without the George's of the world, the other two groups would not exist, because the finely crafted end product would never have been created. Without that product, and the process to create it, there would be no inspiration for automation nor therapy in the process.

I would add here that one finds this type of exchange most often in this forum. I say that both as a moderator and as one who traveled thru the Neander world for a while and enjoyed every step of the way! You guys have are an enormous source of talent and skill. Just enjoy what you have and leave the anger and jealousy at the door.

[Brian Ashton]

Brian,I must say that I just do not participate in things that I truly suck at. What is the point? I am not a good basketball player,in spite of being quite tall,so I haven't played it since the last time I HAD to in high school physical education classes. I can't swim worth 2 cents. My bones are too heavy to allow me to float. I never could pass swimming in college Phys ed. I never ever swim now.

I find it difficult to see why someone who is just terrible at some activity would persist in it. For me,at least,with lack of an ability comes lack of interest.

In college,we had a guy who was so miserable at doing skilled work of any kind (In the Industrial Arts program we were in) He just quit,and pursued some other field. All my fellow students were retired military guys going to college on the G.I. bill. I was the only student fresh out of high school. I would have thought that a middle aged,graying guy would already have found out that he was not cut out for teaching woodworking.

The old saying "If you can't stand the heat,get out of the kitchen" SORT of fits here.

That's great for you. But if everyone thought that way, most of us wouldn't try anything much beyond what we learned as children or young adults. As anyone that's passed their 30s knows, it's much harder to pick things up quickly when you're older and become relatively good at it... I for one am proud to be quite ignorant in that at 50 I will give most anything a go and not worry about how well I pull it off. I don't rate myself against anyone else, my only criteria is that I at least make small improvements... When I stop improving maybe it's time to find something else to do, but then maybe not if I'm still enjoying it. I played in some sports in Australia where we for the most part sucked really bad, but we enjoyed it, we kept in good shape as a result, so we didn't care. And more importantly no one else cared. I wouldn't change that for anything. If I took the stance of I'm no good at that so it's best I leave it alone I would have probably stayed on the couch and wasted all that time away.

My wife took up drums 3 years ago. Thankfully she didn't measure herself against the 12 year olds also taking lessons that in only a few months were banging out some very complex beats... She kept it up because she always wanted to play drums. She's not that good, and she knows that but she enjoys it.

[george wilson]

Or,you could stick with what you do well and get better at it,rather than lay on the couch. No one recommended that. Or,if you really want to try something new,try finding someone else to argue with.:)

I didn't mean to sound like I never tried ANY new things. I think the scope of my work shows that I have gone into several different fields: Guitars,banjos,lutes,harpsichords,violins,citterns ,even Orpharions. Then,guns,tools of all different types,18th. C. fire engine,giant cider press, working with horn,leather work, ivory,silver,gold,tool steels,scientific instruments,executive gifts,jewelry, knife making,surgical instruments and sharpening them, Machinist work. Is that enough for you? I have more. How much energy do you think I have? I'm getting tired just reading this list. Many of these things I didn't start until I was older,because I couldn't afford to,or didn't have the space.

[Bruce Page]

This thread has run its course.