"Don't be afraid of ruining your saw"

[Bruce Mack]

Tom Lie-Nielsen in his video, Saw III, says this as he encourages his viewers to learn sharpening. With the excellent Vintage Saw treatise and many articles and videos gleaned from magazines and the internet I have been able to repurpose a 16 tpi Veritas crosscut saw as a dovetail saw. This is no big deal to the experienced, but I had difficulty with the small teeth and my bad technique. Now after resetting, jointing, and refiling the teeth, I have a good saw and the pleasure of making it happen. If I had bought a really good saw costing north of $200 I doubt I would have submitted it to my remedial filing, instead returning it to the maker. The packing, the time lost in turn around, the cost, and the dependency would have been irksome.
The question arises whether owners of these high grade saws do the touch ups themselves? I'm guessing they don't as it would be hard to accept a performance loss or the fear of such. Your opinions, experience?

[Moses Yoder]

I will probably get slaughtered for saying this but if you can file a saw there is no reason to spend $200 on a saw. The rare exception would be the person who can both afford a very nice saw and wants to sharpen it his/her self for the experience. I would guess this to be the rare person. The majority would either learn to file it themselves because they are obligated to other priorities and think $200 is a lot of money or they would have the money for a nice saw and pay someone to sharpen it for them.

[Bruce Mack]

I agree with you. Acquired hand skills take time and repetition. I've always been tempted to "buy" the skill but lately am happier when the tool has a little of me in it.

[Jim Matthews]

I think you're half right, MY...

The reason boutique saws are so popular is that they come professionally sharpened.
Old hacks like me can't really see teeth this small - anything less than 12 tpi and I'm guessing about the degree of set
(or if I set three teeth in a row to the same side).

I'm only just now competent at larger tooth sizes to cut straight and reasonably fast.
The really fine stuff? I'm guessing, half the time.


I assert that this is why Japanese saws became so popular in the 1990's - they were sharp right out of the box.

[Tom McMahon]

I believe sharpening saws is a necessary skill just like sharpening chisels or planes. Unless you live next door to a professional saw sharpener you need to be able to do it yourself or quit working every time you saw is dull. If you are afraid to sharpen your saw go buy a cheap saw at an antique store and learn on it.

[Federico Mena Quintero]

An advantage of sharpening saws often is that you really learn to notice the difference between a dull saw and a sharp one. If you sharpen them infrequently, you get used to the gradual loss of sharpness.

[Tom M King]

I use dental loupes to see well while filing really small teeth. I don't wear glasses, but by the time saw teeth number past 16, the extra help makes it easier. Cheap magnifiers give me a headache. 35 dollar saw and 60 dollar loupes still make a reasonably priced good user. I need to dull enough files to send off to be sharpened anyway.

No 100 dollar saws here.

Most new golf drivers are bought by people who can't hit a ball past 250.

[David Weaver]

Well, I wouldn't go that far. I've gotten exposed at events to some mini tour guys and other local pros, and they are equipment fanatics when it comes to driving, fairway woods, long irons/hybrids, wedges and putters (but the short irons are left to classic technology). I was working at a driving range when I was in college and the local pro there had been playing the philadelphia section, and I remember him talking about going through something like a couple of hundred shafts before they had a good matching set for his irons (I'm sure there's better technology for that now), and shortly after that, he qualified for the US senior open, and a rep from Top Flite (does that even still exist?) showed up and he got new irons and a gross of balls that day. Totally wasting his prized shaft selection from several months prior.

And he missed the cut.

The mini tour and serious amateurs around here are way over the top in how they dress, too. I don't remember that quite so much when I played more (when I was still in school) - there were a couple of very wealthy kids who wore specific stuff, but now when I have played in any event, it's uniform that guys with 25 handicaps are dressed with white belts and pants or shorts that are to be worn only on the golf course. But the problem is still the indian, and not the arrow, so to speak.

But for tools I agree. There are three levels of tools to me.
* tools that don't do a job well
* tools that do a job as well as it needs to be done time-wise and neatness wise
* tools that do a job well, fast, and that make the user feel nice while they're using them

The only trouble with tools in the last category is that you can get into a place where you try to find an excuse to use or overuse tools, and they don't yield any better or faster results than tools in bullet point two (which in saws is pretty much any decent vintage saw, let alone the special vintage saws).

I never found much value in chasing the ads around trying to find the newest clubs, and I'm a pretty bad golfer, but I have seen folks with money and dreams of having one perfect hole (instead of an enjoyable round) who spend their money on the clubs and don't want to be bothered with the mechanics of the actual game.

The tools in bullet point 3 attempt to convince users that there are no hard moves. Just like golf has turned into a drive and a wedge game with ballooning ball fight, when it was so much more attractive when it was deader balls with long iron and fairway wood shots on the long par 4s, and a low ball flight.

[george wilson]

Get some 4X drugstore reading glasses,if your eyes are about the same,you can get away with them. I do get tired from wearing them if I go 2 or 3 hours with them on. I like half glasses because I can look over them when looking at distance,and save some energy. I have sharpened my Blitz backsaw,which has over 32 teeth per inch(a guess). Getting glasses that you can see the work through in sufficient magnification is a good part of accomplishing some work.

4X are hard to find. 3.75 are usually the strongest available in most drug stores,but there's 1 store that sells them in 4X. No doubt you could find them on line. I've paid $18.00 several years ago. Don't buy too cheap glasses. Sometimes their lenses don't even match. Like Ace,who sells $3.00 glasses.

[Derek Cohen]

I wear 1.5x magnifiers for reading and sharpen my saws with the aid of a 2.0x Magni-Focuser from LN ...

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/images/products/preview/2-mf-lp2.jpg

It is not a sound idea to generalise about those who sharpen and those who do not. I am sure that many do not sharpen because, until a few years ago, this was considered a skill for the professional. A bit like Roger Bannister breaking the 4 minute barrier for the mile. After he did this it became psychologically possible for others to emulate his feat (or should that be feet? :) ).

I have several "expensive" backsaws, as well as a few I have made, and the responsibility to keep them working well is mine. No different from sharpening my chisels or plane blades. Is there a sharpening service for the latter :) Good tools are not necessarily owned by those that just collect them. Some are owned by those that enjoy using them.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

I don't remember sharpening my first back saw, but it was 40 years ago when I sharpened my first saw, an 8 point saw. I would recommend likewise learning on a 6-10 point saws rather than a fine tooth saw. For the price of sending away one saw for sharpening, you can buy some dull junkers and gain some experience and technique before working on a dovetail saw. If you are serious about using handsaws, you will want to learn to sharpen your saws. Some professional sharpener might do a better job than you, but in the long run it is not worth the inconvenience.

[Judson Green]

Other than requiring glasses at all times my eye sight is pretty good, but for saws with higher PPI count I use these clip-ons. Got em local at a craft store, couldn't find em at a drug store.

And I agree don't be afraid to mess up your saw. Been there, done it, later fixed it, only wiser having the experience.

289696


One of my biggest personal breakthroughs regarding saws was not in sharping but rather convincing myself that this saw is wrong.

I was gifted a backsaw many years ago by a good friend whom is an accomplish woodworker, given to me "ready to go". Tried it out a number of times and though it would cut fine, the kerf was all over the place. I chalked this up to my inexperience as I was in my early years of hand tooling, mostly an electronic woodworker. So the saw never really got any use, setting in a drawer for years. Well only about a year ago did I muster up the courage try and fix it (hammered the set out and resharpened, set). The saw cuts like a dream now. But it was only after I'd read up on the subject did I convince myself that I could do better than the scatter gun set that this saw received. And rather than set in the drawer for another year, better to try fixing. Besides I could always put it back in the drawer.

[David Weaver]

It is not a sound idea to generalise about those who sharpen and those who do not.

You mean like those who sharpen their own saws wear white hats and those who don't wear black hats?

[Kim Malmberg]

I think Derek put it very well. Would we even consider sending our chisels or plane irons for sharpening? Although it isn't quite the same, because saw teeth have much smaller edges than most chisels, I do think it is important to take the hype out of saw filing.
My eyes have also become weaker and nowadays I have to wear glasses and a magnifying lamp for all my sharpening. I'm not very keen on working with anything smaller than 13 PPI. But it is doable.
Saw filing can be difficult, but so can sharpening a gouge. I'm my opinion the better the tooth shape on any saw the easier it is to sharpen. So a brand new saw with slightly dull teeth is a walk in the park because you have already well formed teeth to trace.
I am not an expert on saw filing buy most of the saws I have treated have been saws bought in my own country where saw filing skills were very poor. So I had to joint, reshape, joint again and reshape before I would get anything resembling an even toothline. Which is why I am thrilled every time I manage to buy a saw from the UK or US, because most of the time you will at least have a sound tooth shape to work on.

[Jim Koepke]

Got em local at a craft store

Michael's carries clip-on magnifiers in the needle point section.

The worst thing that can happen filing your saw is you get the tooth line a little off and have to rejoint and refile your saw. It comes with learning and gaining experience. This is a good use for a flea market/yard sale find. When you get it right you will be surprised how good an old $2 saw can cut.

Recently I purchased saw parts from Ron Bontz. So far I have not made a handle for the full saw kit. I sharpened and set a replacement plate for a saw that is now a pleasure to use.

Yes, I advocate people taking a chance and learning how to file their saws.

jtk

[Justin Coon]

So for somebody that wants to take a trip down the rabbit hole, what's a good starter set of tools for the novice saw sharpener? Is a saw vice a necessity?

[Jim Matthews]

... what's a good starter set of tools for the novice saw sharpener? Is a saw vice a necessity?

The current Grobet files are very good; they cut quickly and seem to last.

Some chalk to keep the files from collecting metal between the teeth.
A file brush to keep them clean.

Dykem, Dark Sharpie Markers or some other layout ink to apply to the teeth you're about to sharpen.
The freshly filed steel appears "bright" in comparison to the ink.

Close lighting so you can see what you're doing.
This is underestimated in importance and is the single most effective change I made.

I bought a Bayco LED light that I can align with the teeth and see what's happening.

Magnification maybe helpful if you're older (like me) and have trouble resolving smaller teeth.
(Less than 16 TPI and I can't really see what's going on.)

A regular school magnifying glass will be enough, no need for a dedicated shop version -
but that's what I'm heading for - something like what the fly tiers use.

You don't need a saw vise if you're handy enough to make one.
There are several good designs online.

That said, I bought the Gramercy vise.
It's good enough for Matt Cianci, and isn't fiddly.

I consider it a time saver - I didn't need to spend hours making something that would be clumsier.

http://www.dazor.com/magnifying-lamp.html
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/articleindex/jig-journal-shop-made-saw-vise

Cheap files will beget cheap results.
Don't cut corners on buying files, or you won't be able to cut corners in your sawplate.

[Steve Voigt]

So for somebody that wants to take a trip down the rabbit hole, what's a good starter set of tools for the novice saw sharpener? Is a saw vice a necessity?

Jim's recommendation for a starter set above is right on. I'll just add a couple thoughts:

- it is very cheap to get started. You don't need a set of files. Just buy the specific ones you need. I've heard that LN has cheap shipping on the files, and the price is right (can anyone confirm that about the shipping?). New Nicholson files are not the best, but if you want to get started right away and don't want to mess around with shipping, you may find that the local hardware store has the file you need for about $5. Point is, you can get going with $10-20 worth of files.

- you'll also need a mill file for jointing.

- You can make a saw vise for $5 (or less) in hardware, and some scrap wood. I posted mine here somewhere, as have lots of other people.

- Magnification is very important for fine-toothed saws, but you don't need it to start, because you'll probably want to sharpen a coarser saw for your first effort (as Warren said, 6-10 tpi is a good place to start).

The bottom line is, you can start sharpening saws for a lot less $$ than it takes to sharpen plane iron and chisels. And, unlike with planes and chisels, a half-assed, mediocre saw sharpening will still cut well enough to work wood--you will probably be shocked at how well your first saw works, even if it looks like crap.

On the subject of expensive vs. cheap saws…there is absolutely nothing wrong with spending hundreds on a saw. If I had it, I would spend it. With that said, my entire saw collection of 7 disstons--two back saws, two rips, two crosscuts, and a big mitre saw--cost about $150. I got lucky on two nice yard sale saw, for $5 each, but the rest were purchased on ebay and rehabbed. There's room here for any taste and budget.

[Kees Heiden]

You're forgetting the sawset Steve. In Europe that would be an old Eclipse 77. Or the Somax copy which is available everywhere. And for files I use the Bahco ones, which are reasonably priced and reasonable quality.

If I would buy an expensive saw, I would make sure that I learned how to sharpen it! Otherwise it would be out of duty as soon as it dulls. You can't send them back to the supplier overhere. But I will probably never know about boutique saws, being too cheap to buy new tools.

[Steve Voigt]

You're forgetting the sawset Steve. In Europe that would be an old Eclipse 77. Or the Somax copy which is available everywhere. And for files I use the Bahco ones, which are reasonably priced and reasonable quality.

If I would buy an expensive saw, I would make sure that I learned how to sharpen it! Otherwise it would be out of duty as soon as it dulls. You can't send them back to the supplier overhere. But I will probably never know about boutique saws, being too cheap to buy new tools.

Whoops, you are right. Though it is often that case that old saws are over-set anyway, so you can often get by for your first few sharpenings without one. I did.
I just got an old Eclipse 77 from Josh Clark. I think it was $25. I really like it! That's another thing, people often feel they "have" to have a Stanley 42x, but there are many other usable sets out there for as little as $5 or $10. Maybe not as nice, but they work.

[David Weaver]

It seems to me that a good rule of thumb is that I can cut a dovetail in 1/2-3/4" material in one less stroke with a premium (thinner saw) saw vs a vintage saw if I'm cutting hard and fast (something like 6 saw strokes in cherry or soft maple), and maybe two strokes difference if not and I'm trying to be accurate (double the saw strokes of hard and fast). It's a nice novelty that the premium thinner saws will allow you to cut with one or two less strokes, etc, and they do *feel* really great because of it, but in the balance of things that actually take me a lot of time woodworking, the cutting is not one with either type of saw.

That comparison would be for something like a vintage inexpensive saw, like a disston #4, and a new thin plated saw with a .015 or .018 type plate.

I have no regard for thinner saws when using full sized hand saws, it's only in the smaller joinery saws that I'd concede they're a little nicer in feel (but practicality, no - I can't think of a cut where I split the line by necessity, it's one side or another, so a kerf a little thicker is no big deal).

It is my opinion that learning to sharpen saws if you're going to do a lot of hand tooling is a necessity, not for bragging rights, but for your own time and comfort of using a saw, and to teach you that everything doesn't have to be absolutely perfect for a saw to cut well. Decent to good, yes, but perfect, no. There's no need to joint every time you sharpen, and as you sharpen your saws, you'll probably find with the finer saws, there is no reason to get super specific about fleam. In fact, for those afraid of crosscut saws in the finer tooth varieties, you could just file your saws rip with a 15 degree rake to start and see how that works for crosscuts. If there's one thing I hate with saws, or two I guess, it's:
* a rip saw that has rake so relaxed that it feels like it's sliding in the cut
* a crosscut saw that's got too much and too fine of fleam so that it rasps instead of cutting

The funny thing is that it's easier to file a saw that doesn't rasp than it is one that does, and it's easier to file closer to zero rake (if you use no guides) than farther from it.

A dovetail or rip saw touch up that requires no joint (only once every half dozen times or so once you get good at sharpening do you need to rake, experience can tell you how much) and no setting takes probably 5 minutes to touch up and get good bite again, maybe a little more if it takes more than one file pass. You can do it like a machine in rhythm, and if you are having trouble keeping rhythm in a small rip saw, use one hand on the file and use your thumb as an indexer moving from tooth to tooth so your file doesn't wander and clip off the top of an upcoming tooth, or get ahead of where it should be.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

You mean like those who sharpen their own saws wear white hats and those who don't wear black hats?

I was thinking that those who do not hate puppies and kittens! :D

[Jim Neeley]

I believe sharpening saws is a necessary skill just like sharpening chisels or planes. Unless you live next door to a professional saw sharpener you need to be able to do it yourself or quit working every time you saw is dull. If you are afraid to sharpen your saw go buy a cheap saw at an antique store and learn on it.

I respectfully disagree with you, Tom, for two reasons. I can't speak for you but for me:

1) I use a chisels more often than saws.
2) I sharpen a chisel every couple of uses, especially since I learned to get the sharpening time down under one minute.
3) As long as I'm careful with my saw not to hit nails, etc., I'd have to sharpen a lot more often to reach one sharpening a year.

But then, I'm just a hobbiest and perhaps others feel differently.

Jim

[Peter Evans]

My eyes have also become weaker and nowadays I have to wear glasses and a magnifying lamp for all my sharpening. I'm not very keen on working with anything smaller than 13 PPI. But it is doable.
I'm my opinion the better the tooth shape on any saw the easier it is to sharpen. So a brand new saw with slightly dull teeth is a walk in the park because you have already well formed teeth to trace.
I am not an expert on saw filing buy most of the saws I have treated have been saws bought in my own country where saw filing skills were very poor. So I had to joint, reshape, joint again and reshape before I would get anything resembling an even toothline. Which is why I am thrilled every time I manage to buy a saw from the UK or US, because most of the time you will at least have a sound tooth shape to work on.

Kim makes a very good point about tooth shape. I recently taught a guy to shape, set and sharpen (cross cut) a 12ppi back saw (he wants to sharpen back saws), using one from my pile of "must get rid of to create space". I picked a fairly modern (the transfer print said Sweden but the rest was unreadable) 12" one that was thick (0.028"), straight, dull, but good tooth shape - and he picked up the process very well. Then he worked on a 13ppi Tyzack back saw of his own which had indifferently shaped teeth - and he brought it back into line pretty well. I have also seen people struggle with reshaping c. 8 ppi hand saws that needed a lot of work... after the 3rd jointing or so it all gets a bit frustrating! Secondly, I gave him a quality NOS file (Wiltshire, not usually found in US) the right size. Anybody is going to get frustrated with the lousy saw files sold today (actually all files other than Swiss precision files) - note that Grobet saw files are made in India, only Bahco are made in Europe (Portugal). I understand there are no files currently made in US, is this correct? I think someone sells saw plate machine punched on two edges for practicing - that would be a great place to start.

[george wilson]

If you think you can't ruin your saws,you should have seen the condtition of some of the saws I started getting back in the museum. Some know it all massacred the teeth on saws his group was issued. The teeth were shaped like bullet tips,convex on both sides. Convex to the point that the cutting edges had severe negative rake. I had to re tooth their saws and file and set them,wasting 1/2" of saw plate. That could not be allowed to go on.

I had to get the director to issue a memo that saws had to be returned to the toolmaker for re sharpening. The only person outside my shop who could sharpen was Marcus Hansen,in the cabinet shop,who I had trained when I was instrument maker.

We could,years earlier,send saws out that we had not made,and get them sharpened. But,when that person quit,we got back horrible jobs,and had to start doing them ourselves.

The carpenters in maintenance brought me a saw that would not cut. They could not figure out why. Their saws had been jointed,but not sharpened,and returned in that condition. Flat top teeth. Certainly they would not cut!!! So much for sending them out!!

So,the lesson was learned,and in order for the saws to survive,we had to do it ourselves. A sad commentary, I'd have hoped that the other experienced craftsmen in the museum could at least maintain their tools,and sharpen their own saws. They were not considered hobbiests,but journeyman and masters. In the old days workman had to be able to do these things. I am pretty sure that,like chisels and carving tools,saws were supplied with punched teeth,but not sharpened. No tools were sold sharpened and ready to go. The manufacturers were too frugal to do that. You even had to make your own carving tool handles,or pay extra for ready made ones.

The supervisor who ruined the saw teeth came to see us,complaining that their pit saw was no good. He acted like there was an evil spirit in that saw. I told him we would go look at it,and tell them how to fix the problem. He said "Well,I don't know,I've done everything I can do,and that saw is no good. I'm thinking about buying a new one".

We went down there to look at the screwed up teeth,which were VERY LARGE. I explained to the lead journeyman what was wrong. In a few days,he called me back. He had correctly sharpened the teeth,but the teeth on one side were about 1/8" taller than on the other. So,I pointed that out to him. The saw would not cut straight like that. In a few more days,the journeyman had finally sharpened the saw correctly. It was essential that they sharpen that saw themselves,because,sawing dirty logs would dull the saw in a few hours of use.

The supervisor came to the shop on another matter. I told him about the pit saw being restored to use. His response was "Oh,I hadn't looked at it". That aggravated me,after his long discourse about how that saw could NOT be fixed!! He was fired not too long afterwards. Good riddance. He was fired for other reasons. Somehow,he managed to piss off everyone in the museum. I had mentioned to the director,who at that time was a very intelligent person,that the supervisor was an aggravating fellow. The director smiled broadly and said" Oh,he aggravates you,too ? I don't know why he was fired. But,from my aspect,it would have been better if the guy just did what he KNEW how to do. But,he knew EVERYTHING,and piddled in other supervisor's areas.

[Tony Zaffuto]

So-called "sharpening experts" can also screw up saws! After Tom Law quit sharpening, I tried a few (this was at least ten years ago). One of the internet's favorite was one of the worse - hand sharpener and all. I sent Disston DT saw to him, having removed the handle to facilitate shipping. Saw was rip and teeth were in decent shape. Guy re toothed it, filing it a coarser cross-cut. But the biggest issue was he did the saw backwards! Must not have been watching as he fed it into the re-toother

[george wilson]

I can't believe he would return the saw to you in that condition!! That is beyond belief!!!

Well,you could have pretended it was a Japanese saw!!!:):):)

[Tony Zaffuto]

He was "the" internet guy at the time! Glowing reviews about his "hand sharpening" prowess! The saw was run through a Foley. There are a few guys out there that do a great job (Bob/Logan Cabinet Shop for one), but sharp/cuts well means different things to all of us, particularly those of us who use their saws. I can touch up pretty well, but for major teeth work, they go out.

Also, just cause a saw is brand spanking new, from one of "the" internet guys, does not mean it will cut, though I've has great luck with TFWW, Pax 1776 saws and LV.

[george wilson]

Tony,I have no idea who "the internet guy" is. Would you PM me who he is? Just curious.

[Eric Brown]

When I sold Jim Neely sharpened auger bits I tested them in pine and hard maple. All 26 bits. That's 52 holes. I would not have sent them if they had not worked. I would think that saw sharpeners would also test their work before shipping. Perhaps the customer is to blame for not requiring the sharpened saw to be tested and the proof shown. I finished cleaning and sharpening a D-23 Lightweight Disston 8 point crosscut saw today and did test cuts in walnut and pine. It will be sold to a co-worker who is trying to get started in hand tool wood working. He will be shown the test cuts. I'm not making any money on it but that's not important to me. Helping someone else does.290053

[Max Withers]

I have posted before about how (relatively) easy and fast I found it to learn to sharpen a handsaw. This is true! But last week I needed a panel saw, and decided to fix whatever was wrong with my Harvey Peace 9pt. I thought it was just a little dull and/or maybe under set, but it was shockingly concave. I'd eyeballed it and thought it was fine, but it was out by maybe 1/2". I had to joint and file gradually over many passes to avoid cutting new teeth, and it took a LONG time. Happy Memorial Day!

But, it was not hard, and it cuts fast and straight. It's also easier to start than my L-N dovetail saw, which is how I know what sharp is. I am pretty laissez-faire about rake and fleam, but as David says, you don't need to be perfect.

The files I used (Mexican Nicholsons) are pretty much toast after one saw though, and I will admit to thinking it is probably cheaper to just buy the induction hardened disposables than the right files. Especially if you bill for labor.

I might experiment with fitting a decent old handle to a new Bahco plate.

[Bruce Mack]

I've gotten obsessive. I have a Veritas 12 tpi rip carcass saw which I have sharpened and jointed a few times. I've tried to make it an aggressive dovetail saw for 3/4 inch material but my product gets too wimpy, easy to start but not very effective. Latest iteration is ~ zero rake which cuts small tenon cheeks like a demon but is too grabby for dovetails in thinner material. My problem is poor skills in fine tuning. I think I'll get there eventually and have an order of 4 files coming from L-N.
I've used the Jorgensen Pony 22" 8 tpi induction hardened saw for rough cutting stock to length and liked it enough to try their 12 tpi backsaw for finer work. It is grabby, slower of course, and still leaves splintery edges. I don't think the western induction hardened saws have the finesse of the smaller toothed Japanese saws. Perhaps the tooth geometry just does not work well with a thick plate. Other factors such as rake and set may apply.

[Ron Bontz]

He was "the" internet guy at the time! Glowing reviews about his "hand sharpening" prowess! The saw was run through a Foley. There are a few guys out there that do a great job (Bob/Logan Cabinet Shop for one), but sharp/cuts well means different things to all of us, particularly those of us who use their saws. I can touch up pretty well, but for major teeth work, they go out.

Also, just cause a saw is brand spanking new, from one of "the" Internet guys, does not mean it will cut, though I've has great luck with TFWW, Pax 1776 saws and LV.

Well, thank goodness I wasn't around at the time. Wouldn't want someone bad mouthing me in private messages. Yikes! I guarantee mine and I think most guys do. Do they not? Either way sorry to read that. I rarely sharpen saws for other folks. But when I do I prefer it was a local person so they may try it out in my presence. Everyone should learn to sharpen their own saws, if they are able. The reason is simple. By doing so you will pick up on the subtle differences of different filings, and most of all learn what works best for you, etc..