Warr and Ted made some fine saws

[Kim Malmberg]

I got myself another Warr and Ted the other day:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/finnberg68/sets/72157644329042210/


The keystone in the medallion would identify the saw as being made by Disston.


I also know that the saw was sold in Philadelphia by Supplee Hardware Co. Supplee ordered a line of saws from (possibly) various makers, but sold them with their own name etched onto the plates, just like many other companies did.


The Supple saw is "The Genuine and Original no. 255". The etch also includes the following:
"Royal Steel ~Spring Steel ~Warranted"
"Patent Temper ~Patent Ground"


A similar saw does feature in an ad in this closed listing, with the only difference being the wheat grain carving around the nuts:


My saw is a 26 inch skewback with a very nicely shaped handle with wheat grain both on the palm grip and on the area around the nuts. The wood could be apple, but I think it might be something harder like walnut or mahogany. It is not rosewood.


The saw clearly indicates a de luxe model. Not saying it is a top of the line saw, but the steel is very hard and well tempered, the sound when tapped and feel of it when cutting is that of a true quality saw. And the handle is very nicely shaped with a long and rather bold curve on the top horn and a very nice, bulging palm grip.


What I would like to know is if anyone can identify this saw as a model in it's own right. I have failed. If I go by Disston's line of saws, the only handle that would actually be a very close fit is the Disston no. 99, and specifically the handle variation brought into production from 1906 onwards.


http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/99page.html


The no. 99 was of course a straight back saw, so the models do not match. But I think you'd agree that the handle seems to be right.


My saw also have the narrow slotted screws which appear on the turn of the century Disston saws.


The saw plate on my saw shares a lot of similarities with many Disston models, so I'm not sure if the plate can be identified as belonging to one specific model.


I guess saws made for specific retailers or hardware companies owed have been custom made, so as not to be confused with the makers own brand and models. So in this sense I guess it is possible that the custom made saws were made from parts. And maybe this is the real answer to my question. But if someone knows more about my saw in specific or custom made saws in general, I'd be happy to hear.


Now, to further complicate matters, I discovered David Weaver had asked around about a similar saw, juts last year. His saw is an almost identical match, but the handle seems to be apple and the wheat carving appears only on the palm grip.


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?203484-Sheffield-Saw-Company-What-Was-it-Etch-identification-needed


What confuses me is that we have the same saw, but with differing medallions. If David's medallion is stamped Sheffield Saw Works, that would indicate Atkins as the maker. Atkins used Sheffield Saw Works as the maker of one of their secondary line saws.


So, here's one for David. What does your medallion look like? I am curious.

[Bill Houghton]

Royal steel? Do you have to be a king/queen/prince/princess to be qualified to use it?

[Kim Malmberg]

Royal steel indeed. Just as crazy as Sheffield Saw Works but I guess it was deemed as a mark of quality.

[David Weaver]

I'll get a picture of the medallion later. Mine is a sheffield saw company product (woodrough and mcparlin) and not an atkins saw (sheffield saw "works").

It is stiffer and harder than my D8s (and a little heavier) and an all around treat to use. Fortunately, it didn't have the kiss of death warranted superior medallion, though I'm sure it's not worth a whole lot, I wouldn't sell it for $50. Even though it doesn't look like anything special in that picture, it's an animal.

I got it with three "off brand" saws and a crisp atkins backsaw on the first auction I ever bid on at MJD for a total of $80 with shipping and auction fees, and got spoiled. All four of the saws are nice.

I've had trouble finding more similar saws from W&McP.

Not that there's anything wrong with disston saws, nor is there with warranted inferior (my favorite term for it, though I don't mean it in spite) medallion saws. There are some other saws that I have that have the warranted inferior medallion that are also a super treat to use, including (I think) the rip saw that I have marked "tip top" with a cheap handle.

[David Weaver]

289669well, I didn't remember that right at all.

It says supplee hardware co. phila on the medallion.

[Kim Malmberg]

Well if your saw is a W&McP you have done well. Which brings me to a question which I forgot to ask earlier. Your saw looks very much like mine. And I bet the etches are the same including the typography. But mine is made by Disston. So the question is: Did several manufacturers simultaneously or separately make saws with the same design for those hardware stores? What I mean is if it could have been common practice that the hardware stores or retailers decided about a design and then ordered from varying makers to their specs?

[Kim Malmberg]

That's interesting. Sold in Philadelphia, looking the same as mine (with the exception of the wheat grain carving around the nuts) although your handle looks like apple and mine could be something else. Are the slots in the nuts the narrow ones or the later and wider ones? How did you arrive at Woodrough & McParlin as the maker?

[Kim Malmberg]

Forgot to mention that Supplee Hardware became Supplee-Biddle Hardware Co in 1914, when one Mr Biddle joined ownership. So it could be that both saws were made before that year.

[David Weaver]

Here's (adding no value to this discussion) another one that nobody got earlier this year



310888399084

[Kim Malmberg]

Yes, I spotted that one. Nice condition, and fitted with Warranted eagle medallion, unlike yours and mine.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, I'm not afraid of the warranted saw medallion. I call it toxic only because it makes it difficult to resell a saw. That's not something I often do, but I did get a lot of 4 oddballs at MJD last year for $200, which I consider a huge amount for sight unseen saws. When they came, they didn't look as good as the pictures and the best saw has a warrented superior medallion, which though it is a very good saw, I doubt I could get someone to give me $25 for it, which is alarming given that it would need to carry about $100 to make up for the other saws.

The thing that was unusual about the saws was that they all had various hardware store marks on them, and fairly substantial fancy etches.

I'd imagine the supplee medallion says philadelphia because that's where supplee was, or at least I'm guessing.

Jonathan McCullough mentioned that the etch of that style, with the patent temper / patent ground statement is a woodrough and mcparlin etch style.

[David Weaver]

Do you think there's a chance that someone robbed the original medallion from that saw?

[Jim Matthews]

I would bet real money that the same saw works cranked out plates for multiple manufacturers,
much like the Shanghai factories that produce tennis racquets.

If there's spare capacity, a different paint and label scheme can be applied.

That's just a SWAG, mind you...

[Kim Malmberg]

Why would it be a replacement? We all know my saw is a WS. We also know that Disston made WS saws, using this exact medallion. David, you didn't answer my question. How did you arrive at yours being a W&Mc saw? We're you told so or did you find evidence?
Look at your saw and then look at mine. Apart from some small details they are the same. They could have been made by different makers or the design could have changed.
To be honest, both of our saw look much more like a Disston than a W&McP.

[Kim Malmberg]

Yes, that is an interesting notion. A subcontractor that wouldfit parts for different purposes. But what speaks against it is that the various makers at least claimed to use different types of spring steel.

[David Weaver]

Kim, Jonathan McCullough described it as a w&mcp saw, otherwise, I don't know. I guess it could be a disston saw. Yours and mine do look alike. I'm puzzling over what the wood is on your handle. Is it just stained apple?

[Jim Matthews]

...the various makers at least claimed to use different types of spring steel.

It's possible that they had unique supply chains, and dedicated staff.
I haven't seen evidence of the notion I suppose, so I'm guessing.

I do know that in the same time frame musical instrument makers in and around
the turn of the 20th century had concentrations of staff near Paris and in what is know the Czech republic.

The skilled staff filled piece orders at each maker's factory, starting with the jobs that had the most billable hours.

Larger concerns like Selmer and Keilwerth survive today, where the smaller "boutique" names are largely forgotten.
(Like Couesnon, my personal favorite.)

If that model translates across the Atlantic and over industries, I suspect this was the case.

It's how bicycles, tennis racquets, skis and other specialty items are made today and I don't think it's a modern convention.

[Kim Malmberg]

First of all, my apologies, I was entirely wrong about the Fleabay saw. It has the medallion placed as the lowest of four nuts, so it doesn't count. (Item no 310888399084). That one could well be a Woodrough McParlin.


But back to my saw. Last year Jonathan made a comment on a thread on woodnet, regarding another very close match:
http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=6489084&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1


Someone on wood net posted a question about a saw which appears to be identical to David's and mine. Note that the saw on wood net has the medallion placed as the third nut from the top, just like David's and mine.


The observation by Jonathan was that the saw in question was a Woodrough & McParlin saw.


I think this is wrong.


In another thread last year I asked around about another hardware saw I had bought, here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/finnberg68/sets/72157632596042223


This saw turned out to be a Woodrough & McParlin. Note that the medallion is placed as the lowest of four nuts. Note the slight difference in the handle size (smaller on the W&McP) and the contours at the bottom.


So, unless I am mistaken, I think David's saw and mine were made by Disston in Philadelphia.


Yes, I agree that the medallion on David's saw is different than mine. Why we have different medallion on near identical saws is something I cannot explain. But why not? We know the saw makers used their Warran & Ted medallions inconsistently, and I have a feeling they might have bough supplies from each other or a sub contractor. Maybe it was all about availability? The Supplee Hardware medallion on David's saw is very cool and maybe this medallion was made because Supplee Hardware had a hardware store in Philadelphia, amongst other places.


Another interesting observation is how the typography and layout of elements in etches on Warran & Ted saws seems to be the same. Could it be that the saw makers agreed on certain templates which were used freely by several makers - as it pleased them?


My thinking is that since the Warran & Ted line of saws very often feature words like "Warranted Spring Steel", "London Spring Steel", "Patent Taper" and "Patent Ground" as well as variations of the American flags and the eagle, I would not be surprised if there was some sort of consensus about the themes and template making.


Here is an entirely different Shapleigh hardware saw. The interesting part about this saw is that the two lowest rows of the etch is identical to that on my and David's saw:
http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=6489084&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1




Some final comparisons of the W&McP and Supplee saws:


Here's Jonathans W&McP saw
http://s575.photobucket.com/user/Jonathryn/library/Sickels%20and%20Nutting%20Saw?sort=3&page=1


And here is my W&McP saw:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/finnberg68/9005509035/in/photolist-eHMA6a-eHMzmD-fKB45F-fKB45K-n6MetE-5gof8F-c3fbiA-cY2Pp-nbHGCV-c8eBNU-fKB44T-fKTETm-fKTERS-fKB426-fKTENC-fKTEP9-fKB3Yx-fWAAXW-fWAG49-fWAFgh-fWAwx4-fWAD6L-fWAwJ5-fWAtGp-dPg2ow-dPapEV-dPapDn-dPapAn-dPg2k3-dPapvD-dPg2jj-dPg2iA-dPdW1D-dPjxF5 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/finnberg68/sets/72157632596042223)


Compare those against David's saw, which I believe to be a Disston:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=262662&d=1369064584


and my ditto:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/finnberg68/14240232293/in/set-72157644329042210


And note how the skew back on David's and my saw starts at with a slight change in the angle, then curves rather sharply, just like on the D8:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/finnberg68/7599466960/in/photolist-gfbUBq-gfbJpa-gfbzw9-gfbD6y-gfbGTe-gfbGtM-gfbE8d-gfcH6r-bAsPvB-bnxXLG-bnxXEu-bAsR4g-bAsQkR-bAsQKD-bnxYvL-bAsQ7k-bnxYS7-bnxXh3-dzRpoj-czxeRq-czxiHj-czxit5-czxg5f-czxhRG-czxgTS-czxfLq-czxhVL-czxhu1-czxiAh-czxfTJ-czxgJj-czxfpm-czxf9S-czxhAf-czxgyE-czxgnu-czxijy-czxiaL-czxgcG-czxhMS-czxf1q-czxfzq-czxh3j-czxhFE-dzVwXn-dA21Aj-dA21Bs-dA21Df-dzzKtb-dzzKvY

[Kim Malmberg]

I'm puzzling over what the wood is on your handle. Is it just stained apple?

Yes, I am too. It's not stained apple because I gave the handle a good clean and rubbed it with fine steel wool. Normally any stained handle would have some parts where the wood is exposed . And apple would show as considerably lighter. I will remove the handle and take some pictures of it. It does feel harder than apple, and it might be stained, but the wood was dark even below the medallion.

[David Weaver]

Maybe it's rosewood?

I'd like a definitive answer on where my saw came from, but it doesn't go beyond liking to know, I don't need to know I guess. What stands out to me is that I immediately noticed that despite this saw selling in a lot of four saws for a price of $55 (something the spotless atkins backsaw in the lot could've commanded on its own), it is a saw that is as good as any that I've used.

And it appears when you tried using yours, you found the same.

When I go to a similar sized d8 thumbhole with the same size, it feels less substantial and for any number of reasons, doesn't cut quite as fast. Now, that could've been additional grinding that was considered higher class, I don't know.

I also perceived this saw plate to be harder than all of my disstons except for one old #7 that I have that seems to have not been tempered properly (that saw was clearly a dud, it wouldn't be filed even with a double cut file), but it's difficult to make a complete judgement about that when the saw already had quite a bit of set and is a 4 1/2 point saw. If it was an 8 point crosscut, it'd be easier to gauge because there'd be less of a tendency in the first place for a file to skate on smaller teeth.

At any rate, I like these saws and have not had a lot of luck finding more.

I'll see what Jonathan says, he's not just a cursory gazer at saws, he's a saw nut who knows a lot more about them than I do.

I do think, though, that the medallion on mine does have a disston kind of look to it, similar to other medallions on disston saws that are plus or minus 10 or 20 years from 1900.

I don't know.....I just use them, you know? And just take each saw at its properties in use and decide based on that. I have some other pretty expensive (to me, at least, not expensive in context of the saws out there now) saws that I don't like as much despite consensus talking about how great they are.

[Kim Malmberg]

You just use them? What's the fun in that?
Pun aside, yes, I get your point. I happen to have a problem in this department. I tend to spend more time fettling and doing research than actually make something useful with them.

[David Weaver]

You just use them? What's the fun in that?
Pun aside, yes, I get your point. I happen to have a problem in this department. I tend to spend more time fettling and doing research than actually make something useful with them.

Well, one thing is clear either way, these are exceptional saws, and I could make that determination on my own. But you have made it even more certain, and the fact that John (who has a serious saw problem as far as I know) also really loves them above and beyond the standard disston "full quality" saw offerings makes it 3 for 3.

(and, you know, I don't love saws so much other than to sharpen one and grunt and say "good" or "hmm...uninspiring" and then use them, but I do have the problem in other areas. I have a little problem with sharpening stones and to some extent some planes. I need more hours in the day because there are about a hundred planes I'd love to make that I just don't have a need for (or even the room for at this point - and I don't have any room for more saws, either)).

My point wasn't to say that you shouldn't emphatically chase down the origin of our saws (I'd quite like it if you did all of the work and found the definitive answer), it's just one of the cases where I don't have the same nuttiness that I do elsewhere. And aside from having about 60 saws or so at last count (how did I get to that point?), I have the enthusiasm the most for the feel of the saw having just a little bit of full contact bite in the wood - the same way someone would enjoy food that has just the right texture. There's some cross in my mind (and maybe this sounds totally derranged) between the first crunch of a bowl of granola and that zzzzzzzzzzzipp into the wood that a good saw with aggressive teeth provides.

[Kim Malmberg]

Here's the handle. It's not rosewood.

289827

The wood is not hard enough. Neither do I think it is anything exotic. It just must be heavily stained or impregnated apple. The dark, reddish hue goes all the way through the handle, but I am unable to se any grain structure. And think the texture of walnut would shine through. So my thinking is it could well be apple.

289828

My enthusiasm also varied depending on the tools. But yes, saws are my worst fetish. Both sharpening, using them and finding out when they made and by whom. As such it means nothing to me if the saw is a Disston, W&McP or Atkins, but I'd like to understand who made the design for these W&S saws and if the same design might have been used by several manufacturers. Those answer are still unanswered, and most likely I'll never find out. But I have discovered that the more you chase your theories, the more you can kill for theories. And sometimes some acts are discovered.

[David Weaver]

Those pictures say apple to me. The only other likely choices would be walnut, beech, mahogany and rosewood and that grain looks most like apple to me (or maybe I should say more like the lack of things like pores and prominent growth rings does).

[Kim Malmberg]

I agree entirely.