I hate saw kits...

[David Weaver]

...that's all I have to say. I've built some planes, I've put together some saws from kits, and I had enough of it at the time. Somehow, I still had an old dovetail saw kit laying around, but it must've been cursed.

I started off OK with a nice piece of beech for the handle, got it cut out and then went to put the plate in the spine just to check it to make sure it was straight. It had all kinds of problems. Burrs on the inside of the back slot, which must've been present on the back itself before it was folded. Then, it's not straight. There's not much you can do to make the plate straight. I'd say stuff went downhill from there, but it didn't go down hill, it just went straight to the bottom without taking a tour.

So miffed by that, I got in a rush with it, contemplating throwing the whole thing away. But I kept on it anyway, and then, I:
* filed the corner off of the wrong side of the plate (needed to refile the teeth to go the other way because of that)
* fiddled around trying to get something straight out of the back, but it wasn't a gentle curve one way or the other, it's more like an S. No manner of up and down with the spine or twisting or bending it with one end in the vise (to test if any direction would straighten the tooth line) amounted to anything
* and for some reason, i couldn't get the threads on one of the saw nuts to take to the saw bolt. Fixed that with a hammer out of frustration (which of course "fixed it" for good by stripping all of the threads, and when I picked up the saw after putting the nuts on, I realized that I mortised the opposite side of the handle that I wanted to and the split nuts are on the side of the saw facing me. They are so tight in the saw and plate for some reason that I don't care - it doesn't even matter that the nuts aren't holding the . The saw is a cosmetic lost cause because of the back.

So I refiled the teeth, the saw back is still 3/4" too long, hanging off of the end, and the notch on the bottom of the plate (albeit small) that is supposed to be on the back of the plate is on the front and the teeth have been reversed. The edge of the saw has two different waves in it.

But it cuts OK - cuts pretty well actually.

I remember thinking with the kits last time, any part of the saw making process has the potential to ruin the saw. It's not like making a plane, which is a satisfying process that yields something good. If you get a dud back with your saw that you can't fix, that's it, the whole effort is worthless.

The handle is as rasped, filed and scraped - it's not like i'm going to do anything about it, though. I'm not ever going to put finish or wax on it, even.

After getting an old barber and genn saw off of ebay last week, that took a total of an hour to get in decent shape and refiled, and cost the same as a kit, I don't know why I even bother to make kits. That was kit #4, I guess. Every one of them was a pain. Every one yielded a good cutting saw, but in each case, getting a vintage saw and doing the minor touchups they need would've been a lot smarter.

On the bright side, I was going to sell this kit - luckily, I didn't do that. I would've had an enemy after the sale for sure.

Actually, all of the other kits did turn out OK, but this one I should've thrown out as soon as I fitted the back and then looked at the spine against a straight edge and saw it was all over the place. If anything, it will cure me from wanting to get any more saw kits. Maybe the slotted kits are less troublesome - I've got so many saws, I'll never need to find out.

[Andrew Fleck]

My only experience with a kit is with a slotted back and I had no issues with it. You have more patience than me. I would have tossed it as soon as I realized the notch was on the wrong side.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Sounds like you had one of those moments where you just need to stop and go do something else. Sorry about the kit, this kind of possibility is why I insist that I WANT to spend 150-300$ on a new saw. I guess the people who suggested a kit don't like me very much :rolleyes:

I wonder if a pro could fix that saw.

[David Weaver]

I wonder if a pro could fix that saw.

Yeah, two saw nuts and a proper spine would take care of it (only because I stripped at least one of the saw nuts. It would take a punch to get them out of the plate and handle, though.)

The attraction of the kits is that I've built a 16 inch rip saw, a 14 inch crosscut saw (no clue what you'd call that, I guess a sash saw), and two dovetail saws for a total of about $220. Throw out the last one, the other saws are fine, and it's three new saws with folded brass backs and 1095 plates and tidy teeth for about $220.

What I like better is to get a fine old english saw with a straight back, split nuts, and pitted up plate, and just replace the plate. It takes about an hour to replace the plate and clean up one of those saws and file the teeth, and the cost is usually just a couple of bucks more than a kit.

I got this current kit for a very specific reason. I have a fairly short nurse saw, another longer dovetail saw with a taller plate, and I got this kit to make one that was longer with a shorter plate. I have to admit that thus far, despite all of the above, it's better in the front vise than any of my other saws (faster and just as accurate). I'll just keep it for however long it works nicely and when something goes wrong with it that doesn't get fixed with a quick repair, then I'll throw it away.

I'd imagine this can be avoided with a slotted kit - they come off of a mill and have a much better chance of being straight. I just don't like slotted backs. To me, they are like having a wringer washer with a printed circuit board. Or an electric car with tailpipes and a sound system that makes gasoline engine noises. Or a buddy rich album where the drum track has been dubbed over with a drum machine.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Or an electric car with tailpipes and a sound system that makes gasoline engine noises.

Lol ! that is so true of so many products nowadays.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, not to suggest that slotted saws aren't perfectly fine - they are. Just like an electric car that makes gas engine noises would get you from point A to B without any issue. I just don't love them (and in this case, I guess it's like saying I don't love a softer hammer to hit my forehead with, because the trouble I had stems from the spine).

I usually draw some heat when I say I don't like slotted backs. If I had to make a perfect product for a buyer, I'd probably like them more.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Yeah, I didn't take it to mean there is anything wrong with them. I understood your statement as an expression of a sense of affection to the classic ways and look. maybe somethims a sense of dissonance with a "tasteless\fake" modern solution. similar to how I dislike most any new metal plane I have tried, they feel cold and chunky, where a old Bailey no.4 feels light and nimble. that doesn't mean new ones are not perfectly capable tools, maybe even mechanically superior.

I think your right that a lot of these changes come from practical advancment, that is using a folded back is a more primitive way to go. if they had the equipment to make sloted backs back then maybe they would have prefered it, and we would look at a floded back today the same way we look at a laminated plane. with that said, I think there is almost always something humanly warm about primitive but skillfuly achived solutions.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, that pretty much sums up how I feel about them. When they are in proportion, no real problem. Some of the saws out now have ultra heavy spines in the name of making them "easier to use". I don't like those saws any more than I like the pennsylvania saw corp saws that have a spine that's way too light combined with a fat plate. I sort of like them they way they were made when people had to make a living using them and makers supplying professionals had to make a living supplying people who knew how to use them.

[Kees Heiden]

Just make them from scratch, then you also learn how to straighten a folded back with hammer and anvil. It's not rocketscience you know :D

Making saws is indeed a tricky business. Lots of things to go wrong. My tenon saw has a slight bow under the handle, but it cuts fast and straight, so I just try to forget.

[David Weaver]

Kees, perhaps the most annoying part of all of it, especially given that I could sight down the plate and see a slight wave, is that you know (from experience) that the saw is going to cut well, anyway.

In this case, it still does. At this point, better than my other saws because I was able (despite all of the problems) to look at the other dovetail saws I had and pick a spot in the middle in terms of the handle hang w.r.t. the toothline. It becomes a cosmetic issue instead. It cuts as fast as my japanese saws, but without the danger of pinging off teeth - over several years, every one of my japanese dovetail saws (which to be fair, I have subjected to absolutely everything and I cut dovetails at speed, and not neatness) has a tip of at least one tooth broken off. Some of them have cut tenons in cocobolo and some have cut beech, etc, but every one is missing at least the tip of a tooth, and some of the dozukis are missing large groups of teeth. The strange thing is that I never noticed when the teeth came off, just that at some point for most "ghee...this saw is cutting kind of rough", and you look down and teeth are broken off.

The bend under the handle - there is going to be some of it almost without exception if you cut the slot with a hand saw. How much will vary. In four saws, one of mine is dead straight under the handle by chance, the other three wave a little. As to whether or not that's acceptable, I noticed that on my old nurse saw, the blade is dead straight.........except right at the handle, it's curved because they didn't get the slot perfect, either.

Of course, to absolutely no ill effect in the cut. Those thin plates are far too flexible to care, and the blade is so far back when you get to the handle that the cut line has already been determined when it gets in the cut.

[Kees Heiden]

On all my old english saws the blade is dead straight under the handle. I wonder how they made them? The Spear and Jackson leap frog brand saws are a little later, so I guess they were cut with circular saw setup. Usually the mortice is also very good. I think you are right, restoring an old one is pretty good idea.

[Kees Heiden]

Hmm, I think I've looked with rose tinted spectacles at my saws. I've sold a few last winter, but the ones remaining have slightly wavy toothlines too. My last S&J leap frog is straight.

A lot of finer nuances of saws, like how straight they are, or the exact filing patern, don't matter a whole lot in daily practice. You have to be a very experienced sawyer to feel a few degrees difference in rake or fleam angle. I always forget how I've set up my saws, so I just grab one and go to town. Crosscuting with a ripsaw feels very wrong though.

[Steve Voigt]

Just make them from scratch, then you also learn how to straighten a folded back with hammer and anvil.


I'm holding out until TGIAG starts selling the slotted (EDIT: I meant folded) backs. It shouldn't be long now.

[Chris Griggs]

Bummer that the kit turned out to be a PITA and not as nice as you'd like. They're enough work to make that its nice when they turn out nice.

I like the folded back too...only because I like the fact that I can change the plate if I ever need/want too. Haven't had the need yet, but that's what keeps me holding out for someone to offer more folded backs...well that and I'm not in a hurry to make a bunch of saws...when I'm ready to build a few more I guess I'll get some slotted backs if that's all that available.

Well, at least you got it together in the end and it cuts well enough. No Pics?

[David Weaver]

haven't yet cut the excess back off of the end.

That handle pattern is a bit too dominating for the plate, anyway, I should've used a pattern that I had from before and left the back of the plate mostly square so the saw nuts could be further back in the cheeks and closer to the direction of the tooth line.

289670

Obviously, if this were a successful effort, I would finish contouring the tote, scrape/sand it smooth, file or sand the brass flush with the cheeks and put some finish on the handle (and clean up the dings on the brass back that I put there after it was a lost cause.

I'll cut off the end of the brass back, but that's it.

[Chris Griggs]

For whatever reason, I actually like the look of disproportionately large handles on DT saws. No joke, I can't explain why. Every once in a while you see tiny old disston DT saws with closed totes that are over dominating but I think they look cool in a wierd way.

Shaping is nice and crisp (as I'd expect from you) it'll be a good looking saw even if you just slap some finish on it. I'd probably sand and polish the back, but its damn hard to get all the dings and stress fractures out of those things. I didn't get them all out in my two I built.

[David Weaver]

I cut off the brass, hammered it shut and filed a bevel on the front last night and admittedly, it looks a little better now. The dings are all from beating on it after it was a known lost cause. They could be removed, but the stress cracking would take a long time to fix on a saw where it was worth doing. There are a couple of lines on the handle at the top that I don't like, but I'm done fiddling with this one, and done with saws in general unless I find something English that just needs a quick replate.

[David Weaver]

I agree about disston #4s though. They've been tapped with the ugly stick, but I don't think the pattern looks too bad once the saws get to a certain size around 12" or so.

They are definitely durable.

(on a more positive note, I did manage to make a bowsaw and file a set of teeth into it this weekend without any hardware other than a couple of screws and a piece of threaded rod from home depot, and it actually works well despite the 1095 coil that I used being very hard on the file when cutting new teeth)

[Peter Evans]

I agree about disston #4s though. They've been tapped with the ugly stick, but I don't think the pattern looks too bad once the saws get to a certain size around 12" or so.

They are definitely durable.

(on a more positive note, I did manage to make a bowsaw and file a set of teeth into it this weekend without any hardware other than a couple of screws and a piece of threaded rod from home depot, and it actually works well despite the 1095 coil that I used being very hard on the file when cutting new teeth)

Hi David, I have a nice 14" bow saw, but the blades are no longer available, and the old blade is past it, so need to cut some plate. May I please aks a few questions:

What thickness of plate did you use?
How did you cut the plate (I use a 1mm cutting disk in an angle grinder for cutting saw plate, but have not attempted a narrow blade like this)?
How did you set the teeth on the bow saw blade? I am thinking of making a hardwood anvil out of some tough local timber and using a nail punch!

I agree 1095 plate is hard on files when cutting in new teeth, even harder on my old eyes.

[george wilson]

Professional saw sharpeners long ago,back in the 1950's in a shop in England were seen using a very small,flat top steel "Anvil",just large enough to lay under one tooth. They used a narrow faced cross pein hammer. The saw was laid upon the anvil and the workman quickly went down the saw,deftly striking every other tooth. He moved the saw with one hand,and tapped the teeth with the hammer with the other hand. Then,he turned the saw over and did the other teeth. It just took less than a minute. My sculpture teacher had been there in the late 50's and saw it. He did not see them cutting new teeth,but I'll bet it was done freehand,laying the saw plate over a triangular shaped hole,and manually placing the triangular shaped punch over the hole with the saw plate in between. Coopers punched the holes for their iron hoop's rivets like that in Williamsburg. They were real coopers from England. No fancy jigs or machines were involved. The old pros knew how to get along with nearly nothing,heavily relying on personal skills. I doubt any of them remain today.

He saw a large copper kettle being made: A thick,large disc of copper was laid on the large,round cast iron special anvil. Several workmen with heavy hammers knelt on 1 knee around the disc. They would give one whack and shuffle to the next position,whacking the edge of the copper again. So,round and round they went. The edge of the disc began to rise. They kept it up until the kettle was formed. That job would have killed my back!!

[David Weaver]

Hi David, I have a nice 14" bow saw, but the blades are no longer available, and the old blade is past it, so need to cut some plate. May I please aks a few questions:

What thickness of plate did you use?
How did you cut the plate (I use a 1mm cutting disk in an angle grinder for cutting saw plate, but have not attempted a narrow blade like this)?
How did you set the teeth on the bow saw blade? I am thinking of making a hardwood anvil out of some tough local timber and using a nail punch!

I agree 1095 plate is hard on files when cutting in new teeth, even harder on my old eyes.

I used .02" thick 3/4" wide off of a coil and cut it with a hack saw. I know some folks score it and snap it, etc, but I cut so much stuff with a hacksaw that I use it whenever it will work and forgo anything more elegant.

I set the teeth on the blade with a 42x sawset. Reminds me that I still need to make a smaller saw, the one I made has 24" of blade, which is OK, but it's too big and heavy for work in the vise - better for fast crosscutting.