First thought on Arkansas Stones!

[Matthew N. Masail]

I landed 2 days ago in the US, but could not help myself giving my new Ark stones a shot at the first opportunity - a kitchen knife here needed attention badly.
the stones I got:


8X3 soft ark from natural whetstone


8X2 hard ark from natural whestone


8X2 Dan's hard black ark new from e-bay. this one came in at 1 5\8 inch wide which was a big disappointment, it's tiny. .


The hard and soft arks are very similar. the hard is more of a finer\harder version of the soft ark, not at all a smooth hard stone like I thought it would be. it's has pores like the soft ark. the soft ark seems to be great, I really like the feel of it, and I was able to regrind a double bevel on a cheap stainless knife, if it works faster with plain carbon steel and dosen't settle in too fine, I might end up loving this stone.


The Dan's Black looks like super quality compared to the "hard" stone. it's very dark and smooth. I haven't put steel to it yet but I'm already thinking that I'd like a 8X3 version. I was wondering what the differences are between the finishing stone at Dan's website, he has 3 choices:


1. True Hard - says this is the same as a translucent but with color variations within the same stone


2. Translucent - the most expensive


3. True Hard Black - the most dense and fine, cheaper than translucent but more than the 'true hard'.


Why is the Translucent more expensive if the Black is fine and denser? do they cut better? or is it a supply and demand result?


Anyone try a 'true hard' to compare it to a 'hard black'?


I will post more when I get home and actually put them to use with some tools and see how they work and settle in. so far - I'm loving natural stones! but except fore the soft stone, seems like you get what you pay for. and you must buy from the right place.

[David Weaver]

Translucent stones are less common, thus the price. Whatever is finer (trans or black) is based on comparisons of individual stones, they are effectively similar on tools, though, when good ones are to be had. Of the dans black and trans, I found both to be about the same, though that's not what they say.

Shame that the dan's stone is 1 5/8.

The soft and hard arks from NW will settle in to a finer state to some extent, but you can always wake them up with something. They are the best new soft arkansas stones that I've found when the job of the soft is to prepare the edge for a finish stone. A lot of other softs aren't very fast.

All of the vintage softs that I've found are fast cutting and fairly coarse. I've never bought vintage soft stones on purpose, but have gotten a couple when i was trying to buy washitas.

[Mel Fulks]

David, I'm confused here,aren't the washitas the more "sandy"and coarse?

[David Weaver]

They might be less dense (I never measured the density of a vintage washita, but I suppose I could).

In new stones, which are not similar to the true washitas, they use the term "washita" for stones that are very low density.

In vintage stones that I've found, especially unbranded, the softs are usually a little more coarse than the washitas, at least in where they stay for day to day work. Actually, of all of the washitas that I've found, the no 1s and lilywhites tend to be a little bit more coarse than some of the unmarked stones, some of which could be used for razors without much trouble.

I did buy one of what dan's calls a washita, and it's not similar to the pike mine washitas. It's just a very low density stone that's somewhat fragile, and the pike stones are not fragile for sure.

Anyway, the orangish colored vintage softs (that sort of look like a washita) can cut very coarse and raise a fat wire edge quickly, and in the couple that I have, they don't settle in to the same level of fineness that a pike washita will.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks David! I got a partial refund for the black ark so it's not a total waste, I'll get to use it and see how I like it, for about 33$ including shipping.

I'll post back about the soft Ark, I read somewhere here about someone who got one and didn't like it because it was slow, so far mine feels promising, and more capable than the 'Hard'.

I also got that piece of Jasper - it looks beautiful! but I'll wait to glue it to a piece of stable wood first.

[Matthew N. Masail]

quick update, just on the carpet with a little water on the stone - took 2 new Ashley Ils chisels one to the soft ark and one to the hard. with about a 30 degree micro bevel both created a pronounced wire edge in an instant, and the micro bevel was cut to a nice size. the hard black followed by stropping on my jeans created a wicked edge, nice!


interesting was how the burr on the hard ark seemed to hang off the edge, like a tiny bit of tin foil until in was honed off. I never saw that before.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Another update just so no one gets mislead. I am having a vary hard time doing much of any material removal with the hard and soft Arkensas, they lost their initial bite very quickly and now cut very, very slowly. they are able to remove scratches from even a 300grit diamond with decent speed, but so far they are not able to clean up the coarseness of the edge itself coming off a coarse diamond stone, so I have to use a 1000grit water stone to prep the edge first. maybe a medium\fine India stone is in order.
I still have a lot to learn with how to use them and what they might be good for.

I am using them with window cleaner, not oil, so that might be part of the problem too.

[Steve Voigt]

I am having a vary hard time doing much of any material removal with the hard and soft Arkensas, they lost their initial bite very quickly and now cut very, very slowly.
If you want oilstones to cut quickly, you have to abrade them regularly. Not everyone agrees that this is desireable, but if you want them to cut faster, that's what you have to do.


they are able to remove scratches from even a 300grit diamond with decent speed, but so far they are not able to clean up the coarseness of the edge itself coming off a coarse diamond stone, so I have to use a 1000grit water stone to prep the edge first. maybe a medium\fine India stone is in order.

Diamonds leave deeper scratches than oilstones, so I can see how this would be a problem. Many people who sharpen with oilstones do the initial honing on a medium or fine India. I use a fine. If I need to grind off more than that, I'll go back to the power grinder.


.
I am using them with window cleaner, not oil, so that might be part of the problem too.
Well, they do call them oilstones! Your stones might be loading up prematurely. I would try oil. There are some good threads on this site about what to use.

[Winton Applegate]

burr on the hard ark seemed to hang off the edge, like a tiny bit of tin foil until in was honed off. I never saw that before.

Then you have not done any significant sharpening.
This will happen with about any fine grit stone on about an blade.


stropping on my jeans

Don’t do that. Dubs the edge and is ok for a chisel SORT OF BUT NOT REALLY
but will turn into a self defeating bad habit that you may fall back on for plane blades and get inferior cutting performance.


a wicked edge

Don’t confuse an edge that FEELS sharp AND CUTS ARM HAIR with a properly set up woodworking edge.


nice!

Nope it is an ill tested illusion


I am having a vary hard time doing much of any material removal with the hard and soft Arkansas, they lost their initial bite very quickly and now cut very, very slowly

Aha back in the real world.


water stone

Japanese water stone
Samurai swords (worlds best edges and attention to how to get them)
there is a connection here

Hard to argue with a "three body" edge. That is an edge that when wielded by a samurai cuts through THREE bodies in one swing.

Matthew,
Do you want an edge like that ?

Can I get a amen ? !
Do I hear a HALLELUJAH BROTHER ? !

Then bow your head . . .
. . . over a true water stone !

Do not be tempted from the path by evil influences that will assail you from the shadows on all sides

Stay the one TRUE coarse (as it were) to salvation and properly prepared sharp tools.


I am using them with window cleaner, not oil, so that might be part of the problem too.


Nope. Arks are just out of their depth with modern hard steels. OR for significant removal of material. Good for BURNISHING a shaving razor that has no damage back into shape but for sharpening woodworking blades you can’t beat water stones. Japanese water stones. Not rocks from the USA with water on them. The synthetic Japanese water stones that have been ENGINEERED to abrade steel especially the tougher modern steels A2 etc are superior to the natural stones.


Use the Arks for a nice paper weight and the Synthetic Japanese water stones to sharpen woodworking tools.

I have attempted (and pretty much failed) to photograph the smoothing , polishing THAT AN A2 BLADE DOES TO THE HIGH QUALITY TRANSLUCENT ARK STONE . From this point the stone is pushing the metal smoother (see the jeweler's definition of "burnish") but there isn't much if any metal being abraded from here on out. How do I know?
I got out a microscope and bloody well looked for metal particles in the surface of the stone. It is easy to see without the microscope there are black streaks on the stone from O1 steel.

With A2 after it gives the stone " the polish" treatment ha, ha,

no metal swarf

nada (or as we scientists say in tech talk "nah dude, nah").
see last photo.

[David Weaver]

wd40 for the finer stones would be fine. The state that the stones arrive at where they are barely cutting is, to me, the most desirable state. The objective with the stones is to work as little metal as possible when they are cutting that slow, and in terms of stuff like following diamonds, they will not do that. They cut differently, and not in a way that makes arks able to follow diamond stones unless the diamond stones are of similar fineness to the arks.

A deep cutting diamond stone will make grooves too big for the ark to remove in any practical way.

However, grinding a primary and working only the very edge with the arks (skip the diamonds) should definitely be a very practical way to use them. If the diamond stones are being used to grind the primary bevel, set the primary several degrees steeper than where you want to use the arks.

[Steve Voigt]

Use the Arks for a nice paper weight (sic) and the Synthetic Japanese water stones to sharpen woodworking tools.

As I recall, you recently told someone else to use his bevel-down plane as a doorstop.
If only bevel up planes and waterstones can be used to do quality woodworking, one would have to conclude that no woodworking of any significance was done in the West before the late 20th century.
If an argument leads to an absurd conclusion, then the argument itself is absurd.

[Winton Applegate]

Oh one can do the same work it just takes more wasted motion to get there.
or
You are right I just like to cause trouble
or
Nah, I checked it again just now and I'm right. I have no idea how those other dudes ever got any work done . . . must have been alien intervention like the pyramids.

Take your pick. Truth is probably a mix of all.

Speaking of mixes I think that was what the problems seem to be that I adressed back in those other threads..
wrong stone for a given blade material
wrong blade configuration for a given wood/grain combination
wrong choice of a quality/precision spec for an other wise usable blade configuration (BD)

Junker quality planes in a BD blade configuration with a high quality modern A2 blade sharpened on an inferior ark as oposed to a decent quality old ark. That seems to be what the majority are trying to make work.

All I have to say is what The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy has to say on the subject of alcohol drinking:
Go to it and good luck.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Then you have not done any significant sharpening.
This will happen with about any fine grit stone on about an blade
That is not true. 99% of burrs I feel on the back with my finger, not see hanging forward away from the edge. I have sharpened through an entire King combo until nothing was left, before I started experimenting with other stones.



Don’t do that. Dubs the edge and is ok for a chisel SORT OF BUT NOT REALLY
but will turn into a self defeating bad habit that you may fall back on for plane blades and get inferior cutting performance.
Your just trying to cause trouble, If you read my post, I did that because I was in a room with only an Ark and a chisel, and I had enough free time to play with it, BTW, the
edge was very sharp, I guess you don't know how to use Jeans like I do. . . . .

At home I stay away from stropping, don't like it, I prefer the crisp edge off a stone. but sometimes stropping is necessary like if I'm using only a single medium grit stone.



Don’t confuse an edge that FEELS sharp AND CUTS ARM HAIR with a properly set up woodworking edge.
I'm sure you have some mystical wisdom, however if the edge gets me super fine shaving off any wood I try including Ebony, it's good enough for me.



Nope it is an ill tested illusion


Aha back in the real world.



Japanese water stone
Samurai swords (worlds best edges and attention to how to get them)
there is a connection here

Hard to argue with a "three body" edge. That is an edge that when wielded by a samurai cuts through THREE bodies in one swing.

Matthew,
Do you want an edge like that ?

Can I get a amen ? !
Do I hear a HALLELUJAH BROTHER ? !

Then bow your head . . .
. . . over a true water stone !

Do not be tempted from the path by evil influences that will assail you from the shadows on all sides

Stay the one TRUE coarse (as it were) to salvation and properly prepared sharp tools.




Nope. Arks are just out of their depth with modern hard steels. OR for significant removal of material. Good for BURNISHING a shaving razor that has no damage back into shape but for sharpening woodworking blades you can’t beat water stones. Japanese water stones. Not rocks from the USA with water on them. The synthetic Japanese water stones that have been ENGINEERED to abrade steel especially the tougher modern steels A2 etc are superior to the natural stones.


Use the Arks for a nice paper weight and the Synthetic Japanese water stones to sharpen woodworking tools.

I have attempted (and pretty much failed) to photograph the smoothing , polishing THAT AN A2 BLADE DOES TO THE HIGH QUALITY TRANSLUCENT ARK STONE . From this point the stone is pushing the metal smoother (see the jeweler's definition of "burnish") but there isn't much if any metal being abraded from here on out. How do I know?
I got out a microscope and bloody well looked for metal particles in the surface of the stone. It is easy to see without the microscope there are black streaks on the stone from O1 steel.

With A2 after it gives the stone " the polish" treatment ha, ha,

no metal swarf

nada (or as we scientists say in tech talk "nah dude, nah").
see last photo.

I agree Water stone are way, way, way, way, way more capable than Arkensas stones. therefore, as the offender here, I will pledge my alliance to water stones by disposing of that offensive Trans Ark of yours, I shall send you a PM with an address. .................

.............................

[David Weaver]

I also take donations of unwanted trans and black ark stones.

[Warren Mickley]

Arkansas stones are used to finish off an edge that is already sharp. They are not very good at removing material on a dull tool. They are good at removing the roughness from the previous stones and producing a polished edge. Once the edge is polished, the action of the stone slows down. Don't start off your sharpening with a polishing stone if you want to avoid frustration.

Before the advent of man made stones, rub stones and ragg stones were used to remove material and oil stones to polish off the edge. Rub stones and ragg stones were water stones of varying coarseness that were made from sandstones and schists.

[David Weaver]

One comment about new vs. old stones. Some of the new stones are as good as any old stones I've found, but it's not universally the case. the black and trans dans stones are very fine and do a very good job.

There is no modern cross-reference to a washita stone, but we already know that.

Winton - your trans stone is capable of putting a very fine edge on A2, but it can't be used the same way as a waterstone to do it. I used to think otherwise, too, but don't now. Both jasper and novaculite are capable of bring up a paring-quality edge, let alone a smoothing quality edge, on A2. It would just be very inconvenient to try to get to that point via rubbing more than a very small surface of metal to get there.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Why do I seem to always find out this kind of bottom line info after-math.....

I am still glad I got them, at least the black one (just wish it were 2inches wide) the edge off of it on a stock stanley iron cuts great and is vary durable, more so than off the 3k chosera, will have to see how the 10K Gokumyo compares when I get it.

[David Weaver]

I've never used the gokumyo, but the razor people seem to like it better than any stone of any type no matter what the comparison. The only question will be whether it's too fine. Haven't run into too many people using them on tools, but that's strictly cost-related, I think.

All of my planes now have stock/stock-ish irons in them, so I no longer carry a flag for synthetic wonderstones. In the scheme of preparing wood entirely by hand, the stock irons and ark stones are more pleasing to me. If I were only smoothing, though (not sure who that applies to here), I might have more love for an iron that takes the least wear (and would thus deliver more very thin shavings before sharpening, and have the hardness to justify the micron-ish and submicron type sharpening).

[Matthew N. Masail]

Once you said that you loved the blue steel 'stanley' blades that Stu sells for smoothing, I would imagine that specific thing not changing? even though the stock stanley Iron I'm using right now does a great job. I through in one of those blue steel blades with my last order, and I have a nice No.4 with rosewood tote and knob awaiting a fettling, the frog needs quite a bit of work.


I also think the reason is cost-related , and probably most of us on the English speaking side never even heard of them until Stu added them to his line up several months ago.
But, the 10k is not that expensive if bought from Japan.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, those blades are great. Super for waterstone sharpening - they are like a vintage carbon steel but much harder. For that reason, they probably aren't great blades for oilstones (and I don't use mine on oilstones). the abrasive in oilstones gives up to some extent with two things: carbides and extreme hardness. Irons tending toward 64/65 hardness are something they don't tolerate well. They would love that steel if it was tempered to 58, because by our standards, blue steel is not too highly alloyed.

I got the 10k gok and 20k confused. I *almost* bought one (the 20k) right as I was abandoning synthetic stones, but I held back.

[Tony Wilkins]

I'm not sure if I'm getting the best or worst of both worlds but I just ordered a full size version of the Suehiro dual stone (600) that I've been using the drum set version of. Synthetic oil stone basically.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Yeah, those blades are great. Super for waterstone sharpening - they are like a vintage carbon steel but much harder. For that reason, they probably aren't great blades for oilstones (and I don't use mine on oilstones). the abrasive in oilstones gives up to some extent with two things: carbides and extreme hardness. Irons tending toward 64/65 hardness are something they don't tolerate well. They would love that steel if it was tempered to 58, because by our standards, blue steel is not too highly alloyed.


I got the 10k gok and 20k confused. I *almost* bought one (the 20k) right as I was abandoning synthetic stones, but I held back.


Yeah the 20K is Pricyyy... and probably totally redundant for woodworking. the 10K is 1 micron or finer, I only found 1 or 2 reviews on it, a review from a razor guy said it was like coming off a coticule, was super smooth and scary sharp, he said he'd be scared to try the 20k after that lol (though I Imagine the difference probably isn't huge).
I expect it to be a strong consistent cutter giving an super sharp smooth edge without playing any games. the other option was a shapton 12k, but I think the Gokumyo is probably a more capable stone and a more refined cutter.

Based on how you maintain your razors for 6 months... a 20K would be hard to justify.. (from my standpoint right now at least)