Advice on a good bridge stone

[Patrick Carpenter]

I'm kind of new to the forum, so forgive me if this is one of those questions that has been beaten into the ground here. I looked around a little, but couldn't find anything.
I'm starting to think about tweaking my sharpening gear a little to see if I can get things sharper faster. Right now I'm using a Shapton Pro 1k, Imanishi 4k, Sigma 6k, (not select II -- yuck, IMO) and a nice Japanese natural as a finisher. There are more, but I'm trying to pare down the pile of stones to only the 3 or 4 I definitely need. I have a lot of Japanese tools, a couple Lie Nielsen planes, some old Witherby and Swan chisels, a few Mujingfang planes (HSS steel?)... I guess there's a little variety in there, but mostly I'm dealing with Blue or White steel with some A2, HSS, and other stuff on occasion. I also have a couple nice kitchen knives, but I feel like knives are a little less picky than tools about which stones work best.
Right now, I really like all these stones, but I'm thinking the 4k Imanishi and 6k Sigma are possibly a little too similar in grit, and that I could be improving things by switching out the 4k for something else. What is the general feeling on Chosera 3k? I've heard great things about these stones, but I've never used one. I guess I'd be open to suggestions on replacing one of the other stones, but I think the Shapton and the natural stone are probably both staples for me.
Anyway, just wondering if anyone has any input. I'm always into hearing about different stone setups.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Patrick and welcome to the Creek. Your location isn't listed in your profile.

I may have a lot of stones but I am nowhere near knowing enough to answer your question with anything other than my opinion.

I have no idea with what grit your Japanese natural 'finisher' would compare. My finisher is an 8,000 stone. Someday I hope to see what a finer stone can do. For now the 8,000 gets things pretty darn sharp.

jtk

[Archie England]

I'm kind of new to the forum, so forgive me if this is one of those questions that has been beaten into the ground here. I looked around a little, but couldn't find anything.
I'm starting to think about tweaking my sharpening gear a little to see if I can get things sharper faster. Right now I'm using a Shapton Pro 1k, Imanishi 4k, Sigma 6k, (not select II -- yuck, IMO) and a nice Japanese natural as a finisher. There are more, but I'm trying to pare down the pile of stones to only the 3 or 4 I definitely need. I have a lot of Japanese tools, a couple Lie Nielsen planes, some old Witherby and Swan chisels, a few Mujingfang planes (HSS steel?)... I guess there's a little variety in there, but mostly I'm dealing with Blue or White steel with some A2, HSS, and other stuff on occasion. I also have a couple nice kitchen knives, but I feel like knives are a little less picky than tools about which stones work best.
Right now, I really like all these stones, but I'm thinking the 4k Imanishi and 6k Sigma are possibly a little too similar in grit, and that I could be improving things by switching out the 4k for something else. What is the general feeling on Chosera 3k? I've heard great things about these stones, but I've never used one. I guess I'd be open to suggestions on replacing one of the other stones, but I think the Shapton and the natural stone are probably both staples for me.
Anyway, just wondering if anyone has any input. I'm always into hearing about different stone setups.

8k, 10, 12, 13, and beyond are all "degrees" of a great finish. For planing, I'm happy with 6k as the final step; with endgrain, I want 10k or more. Which stone is best? Perhaps, the one that you'll use more often! IMO, the characteristics of a stone make it enjoyable. When I'm in the zone, then I get repeatable results. But those results can be produced by an amazing variety of stone types. Experiment and find those that work for you, and be consistent.

[Winton Applegate]

I am surprised that people here haven not gone for this question like a pack of hounds.
I don't have any experience with some of the stones you have or mentioned.
I have pretty much stuck with old Nortons and then in the last few years went all Shapton.

Generally speaking, for my self, I would have a hard time giving up the 4000 but considering the choices you give I would drop the 4000 and go with a 3000.
With the Nortons I went from 1000 to the 4000. Then I added a 2000 Shapton between and liked the results but then went to an 8000.

As I understand it if you want to speed things up, which I am not all that pressed to save a few minutes , you could use the REAL fast method and power grind to almost the edge but a hair back, then the 1000 and then the Japanese stone. Since there would be so little area to polish with those stones BECAUSE you used the grinder you could get a great result using ONLY the grinder and two stones.

Now
About the Japanese stone for the finish stone. If you don't get great results ON THE A2 blades.
Then
Consider a Shapton or similar 8000 stone because it is engineered to sharpen the A2 steel (so is the OLD Norton 8000 which also worked very well for me on A2).

To back up a bit . . . if you don't grind then the 3000 might cut a little faster than the 4000 and 3000 to 6000 might be a good gap.

No big improvement from what you are already doing though.

The power grinder is where you are going to speed things up.

Personally I don't grind but on the rare occasion and I go through five or six stones.
I use a jig and once the coarse ones are finished cutting back the wear bevel the finer stones are quick to run through.
I like sharpening steel so it isn't an imposition.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'm certainly no sharpening guru, but my first thought was along the lines that Winton mentions - with A2 and HSS figuring into the mix, I'd let that influence my selection somewhat. I've no idea how what you've got handles that stuff, but I've tried to tackle some of the Mujingfang HSS irons on stones less than ideal for them, and if you find yourself trying to hit much steel that way, it's tiresome.

[Derek Cohen]

Welcome Patrick.

I sharpen White Steel, Blue Steel, A2, HSS (M2), PM-V11, and M4, so I guess I have your steels covered :)

I like the Shapton Pro 1000 and prefer it over the Sigma 1200. My next stone is a Sigma 6000, which raises the question why you need to have a stone before this?

I finish on a Sigma 13000, but that is inconsequential in this discussion.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Winton Applegate]

Patrick,
Come on back . . .
over . . .
. . .
I was thinking . . . what/how do you get to the point you can start using your 1000 ?
To get rid of the wear bevel or a slight chip or ding etc., to grind back once your secondary bevel is getting too wide?

As I recall Derek uses a belt sander, David his bench grinder and I a coarse stone (one or more of : 120, 220, 300, 700).

Come on back . . .
over . . .

[Patrick Carpenter]

Hi Winton,
Sorry for disappearing there, i didn't realize i'd gotten so many replies.
Thanks for your input.
To answer you about the more course work, i usually try to sharpen often enough that 1k is a good starting point. When i have a chip or something nasty i'll use power on HSS or A2, but for the Japanese tools i sweat it out on a 240 stone. I have resorted to sandpaper on granite but it's not my favorite. I'm definitely open to suggestions there too.
As for secondary bevels, i usually don't use them. I just feel like i can get things sharper with a single, full bevel even though it takes a little more time to sharpen. Also, i freehand so i find it's a lot easier to repeat the same angle with a single flat bevel as opposed to a micro.
Thanks again.

[Winton Applegate]

Single bevel
Man . . . you ARE taking this sharpening thing seriously. Reminds me of me.

Only speaking of speed now, and just fine results cutting wood wise, I wood/would encourage you to read a bunch of David W.'s posts on sharpening. Doesn't get any faster than that (and you can sell some of your stones rather than buy more).

If you are going to use coarse stones 240 and 1000 to start I would strongly encourage you to punt the single bevel into the trash can (though the idea appeals to me as well) and use a jig and a second or even tertiary bevel.

I sharpen pretty often, because I swap out blades when ever the edge gets a little dull, and I can not imagine using a single bevel and starting at 1000.
For speed on a normal old A2 blade that is dull enough it sort of might, maybe, start to chatter, I would go 300 or 700 on the secondary bevel that is no more than say 2mm wide (OK 3mm some times) until I observe a slight wire edge with my finger feel or better yet a jeweler's visor ALSO I look for the glint of the wire edge when I tilt the blade into the light just right.

With that 2mm or even 1mm secondary bevel it takes a while to get to a wire edge with the 300 or 700.
1000 just takes too long for me.

Then it is rinse and onto the 1000 stone to start taking off that wire and beginning to polish the bevel, I go the other stones and by the time I am on the 4000 I start hitting the polished back of the blade as well as the bevel and finally the 8000 to get that pesky hanger on last fragments of the wire edge off and then

as Moses called it, I wax " Romantic " and use the 15,000 but only for fantasy's sake.

[Patrick Carpenter]

Man . . . you ARE taking this sharpening thing seriously. Reminds me of me.

Only speaking of speed now, and just fine results cutting wood wise, I wood/would encourage you to read a bunch of David W.'s posts on sharpening. Doesn't get any faster than that (and you can sell some of your stones rather than buy more).

If you are going to use coarse stones 240 and 1000 to start I would strongly encourage you to punt the single bevel into the trash can (though the idea appeals to me as well) and use a jig and a second or even tertiary bevel.

I sharpen pretty often, because I swap out blades when ever the edge gets a little dull, and I can not imagine using a single bevel and starting at 1000.
For speed on a normal old A2 blade that is dull enough it sort of might, maybe, start to chatter, I would go 300 or 700 on the secondary bevel that is no more than say 2mm wide (OK 3mm some times) until I observe a slight wire edge with my finger feel or better yet a jeweler's visor ALSO I look for the glint of the wire edge when I tilt the blade into the light just right.

With that 2mm or even 1mm secondary bevel it takes a while to get to a wire edge with the 300 or 700.
1000 just takes too long for me.

Then it is rinse and onto the 1000 stone to start taking off that wire and beginning to polish the bevel, I go the other stones and by the time I am on the 4000 I start hitting the polished back of the blade as well as the bevel and finally the 8000 to get that pesky hanger on last fragments of the wire edge off and then

as Moses called it, I wax " Romantic " and use the 15,000 but only for fantasy's sake.


I have considered the secondary bevel, and I actually used to use one on some blades. But after I got a few nice really nice chisels and sharpened them with a single bevel I couldn't force myself to go back. I guess I could lower the primary angle, then add a secondary a few degrees higher and still have the same working angle I have now.
I have seen David Weaver's posts a few times here--I'll go check out some more and see what I find. Thanks for your help.

[Patrick Carpenter]

Howdy Patrick and welcome to the Creek. Your location isn't listed in your profile.

I may have a lot of stones but I am nowhere near knowing enough to answer your question with anything other than my opinion.

I have no idea with what grit your Japanese natural 'finisher' would compare. My finisher is an 8,000 stone. Someday I hope to see what a finer stone can do. For now the 8,000 gets things pretty darn sharp.

jtk

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the welcome. Yeah, I guess I wasn't real thorough with my profile info--I'm in Northern CA just outside San Francisco.

As for the Japanese stone, it's really hard to estimate the actual grit. I am definitely no expert on Japanese Naturals, but I think they work differently due to the fact that you're using a slurry that moves around and breaks down as you work vs abrasive particles locked in place (which is what you get with a synthetic). I can tell you that, under magnification, you see a scratch pattern with synthetics, and just a cloudy, semi polished finish with a natural. The main thing for me is that I get really good results when I finish with a natural. I've tested the ones I have against a 10k Suehiro ceramic stone and I find myself going back to the natural every time.

[Patrick Carpenter]

Welcome Patrick.

I sharpen White Steel, Blue Steel, A2, HSS (M2), PM-V11, and M4, so I guess I have your steels covered :)

I like the Shapton Pro 1000 and prefer it over the Sigma 1200. My next stone is a Sigma 6000, which raises the question why you need to have a stone before this?

I finish on a Sigma 13000, but that is inconsequential in this discussion.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek,
Thanks for your reply. I feel like it's a little too big a step going from 1k straight to 6k, but I didn't mention that I don't use a secondary bevel. I guess I'm looking for a stone that can take care of the scratches left by the 1k before moving on to a stone that polishes.
I do realize that I could speed things up by using a secondary bevel, but I have a few reasons for not doing so that I have to balance against speed of sharpening.

How is the Sigma 13k...? I've only used the 6k, but I really like it. I kind of wish there was a little more variety in the lineup with those stones.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I guess I could lower the primary angle, then add a secondary a few degrees higher and still have the same working angle I have now.


This is what I do. When I get a tool I use my belt sander to create a ~20 degree primary bevel, this goes for pretty much anything- chisels, plane irons, etc. Then I will put a small secondary bevel at 25, 30, 35 degrees as necessary. Every so often I regrind the primary bevel on the belt sander to keep the secondary bevel small. This helps sharpening speed tremendously on thick plane irons. A single bevel on these would be about 1/4" wide...that's a ridiculous amount of metal to work to raise a burr and polish.

Since most makers seem to put a giant single bevel on their chisels/irons, I do spend a bit of time on the first sharpening, getting them how I want. But after that I rarely have to go below the 1000 grit waterstone. If I did I would just use the DMT X-Coarse (220 grit) diamond stone I keep for flattening the waterstones. Then go back to 1000, and finish with 5000 and 15000 (all Shapton Pros). That stone trio works really well for me.

I agree with you that the 4k and 6k stones seems to be occupying the same space, so to speak, in your setup. Maybe do a little showdown between them on your hardest blades (probably HSS), and see which one removes the 1k scratches most efficiently, and leaves a finish appropriate for the finishing stone. I'm not at all familiar with natural stones, but my concern would be that it will not be very effective on the HSS. If that's the case, it wouldn't be the end of the world to just use the 4k/6k edge. You could also use a hard strop (MDF or such) and diamond compound to get the polish, if you didn't want to buy a synthetic finishing stone.

[David Weaver]

I guess I could lower the primary angle, then add a secondary a few degrees higher and still have the same working angle I have now.


Yes. That. One of the reasons I've migrated to old steel and oilstones is that the final oilstones don't do much cutting, so despite only working the edge of the steel, it is easy to raise a wire edge on the next sharpening (vs. substantial microbevels that you might get off of something like a 10,000 grit synthetic stone). But you can do the same thing with synthetic stones. I just would rather focus my time on the stone with the part of the metal that's doing the cutting only, and preserve geometry as much as possible with the stones (especially the finish stones). The virtue is that you can do it with anything, no matter how curved or small something is. Sharpening a full bevel on highly cambered irons is territory for power tools, but keeping the bevel ground close to the edge and working only a little bit of the metal is no problem.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Derek,
Thanks for your reply. I feel like it's a little too big a step going from 1k straight to 6k, but I didn't mention that I don't use a secondary bevel. I guess I'm looking for a stone that can take care of the scratches left by the 1k before moving on to a stone that polishes.
I do realize that I could speed things up by using a secondary bevel, but I have a few reasons for not doing so that I have to balance against speed of sharpening.

How is the Sigma 13k...? I've only used the 6k, but I really like it. I kind of wish there was a little more variety in the lineup with those stones.

Hi Patrick

I do not use a secondary bevel either, at least not for BD plane blades and chisels. I do use a secondary bevel on BU planes, but that is a separate matter.

My system of sharpening is likely not for you, since it is non-traditional for Japanese blades (I treat all blades the same, laminated and non-laminated). However it is a very fast system, and often all I need is a 6000 and 13000, sometimes only the 13000, or alternately a leather strop with green compound. With the exception of BU blades - again irrelevant here - all my sharpening is a freehand on a hollow grind, using the hollow as a jig. The hollow is created on a Tormek, and this is taken to the edge of the blade. Consequently, I hone the absolute minimum amount of steel after a fresh grind, and I tend to refresh the hollow as soon as the it takes more than about 10 strokes on any stone. Generally I can raise a wire on the 1000 with one (maximum two) strokes on the 1000, polish this with 3 strokes on the 6000, and the same on the 13000. This method does not weaken the edge of the blade.

If you continue honing a full bevel, then you will need more stones. There is no "must" or "should" in sharpening. Everyone is entitled to do what they feel comfortable doing or what they believe in. I do what works for me. However, every method is a compromise - there are always going to be pros and cons. There is no perfect system as far as I am concerned. I can tell you why I do not hone on full bevels (too slow) and why I prefer not to use secondary bevels (with chisels it interferes with registration when paring bevel down). I have told you why I use a hollow grind. It is simple and fast.

The 13000? Excellent stone.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Disclaimer: I am of the opinion that you have numerous responses from people far more adept at sharpening than I. That said...

Derek claims that he does a hollow grind on a Tormek and then he can free hand very fast. This is my favorite method.

David Weaver makes some claim of being able to sharpen quickly when you do not need to remove a bunch of material. Sounds about like what Derek claimed, but I don't remember David specifically saying hollow grind and now that I am typing an answer I won't try to go back and read his post again (although I have learned a lot from his posts).

Winton (I think) is saying something about bevels, which again gives you only a little bit to remove. Off hand, I don't know how you add a secondary bevel free hand, but, I have never tried it and I can imagine how that might work in my head. If Winton says he does it, I am inclined to believe him... Winton takes his sharpening seriously and I think that he agrees with that: :D


Man . . . you ARE taking this sharpening thing seriously. Reminds me of me.

I know that my Lee Valley PM-V11 bench chisels use a secondary bevel, and I have not bothered to add a hollow-grind to them because they were so sharp when they arrived. I finally got around to ordering the two new ones (the small ones, 1/8 and 3/16). I guess I need to decide what I want to do about that particular set of chisels since none of them have a hollow grind at the moment. If Winton says that he free hands those bevels I might give it a try until I get around to adding a hollow grind to them.



... and then as Moses called it, I wax " Romantic " and use the 15,000 but only for fantasy's sake.

I have never used the 15,000. I managed to get a good deal on a 16,000 that I purchased from someone here, and I use that. It may just be in my head, but I think that I have a sharper blade when I do that.

Winton, have you ever used / compared the 16,000 and the 15,000? any particular reason that you use the 15,000 rather than the 16,000? Just curious for when I finally wear out my 16,000 (well, I should say IF I wear out the 16,000...).

[David Weaver]

David Weaver makes some claim of being able to sharpen quickly when you do not need to remove a bunch of material. Sounds about like what Derek claimed, but I don't remember David specifically saying hollow grind and now that I am typing an answer I won't try to go back and read his post again (although I have learned a lot from his posts).


I hollow grind, but it doesn't matter what you do. I always use the stones, other than the first grind, at a slightly higher angle than the grind. It wouldn't matter if you ground flat with a belt sander or hollow ground on a tormek or dry grinder, the key issue at hand is just adding a few degrees, raising a wire edge, and then working it off. The less metal you can remove and still have a fresh good edge of the iron with no nicks, the better and faster it will be.

For a lot of years, I honed right on the facets from the hollow grind with chisels and did any number of things with plane irons (sharpening highly cambered irons with a trizact belt on a belt grinder, and then just polishing the edge with a shapton 15k to clean it up), but I pretty much only do what I described above- raise a wire edge and then polish it off. It's faster, and stone for stone, it's just as fast...

....notwithstanding the video ramble that I posted about the quality of the edge possible straight off of a washita, I fiddled a little while sharpening that one to make sure that I wouldn't have a "fail" with a split shaving. I'd guess the norm is something like a minute and a half for planes, and half of that for chisels if I only use one stone. (plus grinding time of about a minute every few honings).

As derek says, my way isn't the only way, either, it's just something I've settled on. I also do a lot of my dimensioning by hand, so my average shaving is thicker than the average user's shaving, and that may mean that I'm tolerant of some things that a user sharpening only smoothing planes and paring chisels may not be so tolerant of (e.g, a blinding sharp edge is not so important on a try plane, though I do shoot for it, what stops the try plane from cutting is wear and geometry of the iron near the edge).

[Winton Applegate]

Andrew,

you said

Off hand, I don't know how you add a secondary bevel free hand,

Careful reading is the secret to a good edumication.
A key quote from my previous post :


use a jig and a second or even tertiary bevel.

emphasis on use a jig
Not sure where you got the ideurr that I free hand.
To quote Humphrey Bogart in the movie The Treasure of the Sierra Madre "I could'a but I don't wanna, see. "I could'a but I don't wanna,"

Derek,
Sorry I forgot about your Tormek

I was thinking of back in the day when you spoke of the belt sander on the stand.

[Winton Applegate]

Winton, have you ever used / compared the 16,000 and the 15,000? any particular reason that you use the 15,000 rather than the 16,000? Just curious for when I finally wear out my 16,000 (well, I should say IF I wear out the 16,000...).
The Shapton Pro (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0P0000.htm) stone comes in a 15,000

The glass Shapton (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0000000.htm) comes as a 16,000

I have the Pros

And speaking of insane behavior . . . I may buy my first glass stone. I never liked them because I can’t use both sides of the stone but . . .
I think I will buy a glass 30,000
why glass ? it is about half the price of the Pro.
why a 30,000 ? Because it is THERE.
There is no way it will cut wood any better, at least not for more than a few feet of a plane pass.


Just because it is there.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The Shapton Pro (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0P0000.htm) stone comes in a 15,000

The glass Shapton (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0000000.htm) comes as a 16,000

I have the Pros

And speaking of insane behavior . . . I may buy my first glass stone. I never liked them because I can’t use both sides of the stone but . . .


Are the PRO stones thicker so you can use it longer (not just that it is both sides). I assume that the glass is a way to sell you less stone but have a strong backing so the stone will be less likely to break as it gets thinner and thinner.



I think I will buy a glass 30,000
why glass ? it is about half the price of the Pro.
why a 30,000 ? Because it is THERE.
There is no way it will cut wood any better, at least not for more than a few feet of a plane pass.

Just because it is there.

I am so with you on that :D

[Patrick Carpenter]

Wow. Tons of great information and a few things to go try. Thanks to everyone for the advice.

[Winton Applegate]

I am so with you on that http://www.sawmillcreek.org/webkit-fake-url://24B0FA95-6AA0-402B-9E18-96D3427287DA/biggrin.gif

Then we should wait for a two for one sale.
Yah like that will ever happen.

As far as wearing the stone out . . . I am so careful and conservative with my stones I don't think I ever would wear one that thin.

I mean, look at my very first water stone . . . the thick red King 1200 there in the photo. For years and years I used it and flattened it and it really didn't wear away all that much and it is a pretty soft stone THOUGH NOT TOO SOFT I like it just fine. I retired it when I went all Shapton.

Ha, ha, come to think of it that is one advantage to using way too many stones; it spreads the wear out over all of them and so the stones last longer. I knew there was a reason to use so many stones . . . other than my bloody minded need to polish through all the grits in order.

Why all the stones ? I just like to polish the blades and look at them. Cut wood ? Well yah . . . I suppose they do that to. :p

[David Weaver]

Takeshi Kuroda has the pro for $328. Can't get much cheaper than that. Stu has the suehiro whatever it's called, can't remember, that is also a half micron stone but maybe harder? Haven't used it. And stu might have a shapton 30k pro price close to takeshi's.

http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/11

I do have a buddy who doesn't do much hand tool woodworking, but he got the 30k glasstone anyway and just never uses it. He has the 16k and the 30k and we spent a while (years ago) planing different woods with them to see what we could find about the "new, better, finer, sharper edges" and the answer was that we didn't see anything or feel anything different. The difference is there with razors, though - at least according to the fanatical synthetic razor stone users on the shave forums.

I also recall having the feeling "what's next?", as in "well, I don't notice anything, maybe we need to go finer?"

I've since grown out of that but not before acquiring everything from .1 micron iron oxide to .05 micron diamonds.

[Winton Applegate]

the fanatical synthetic razor stone users

Yah . . . evil bunch they are . . . should lock up the whole lot of ‘em. Wasn’t that movie Reefer Madness about those guys ?


Takeshi Kuroda has the pro for $328. and other half micron stones etc.,

Wow Thanks David ! ! !

Seriously good tip. I would never spend $600 plus, (I may be crazy but I’m not stupid) but in a weak moment I might squeak to $350. Less is way better even.

Thanks again !


.05 diamonds

I’m assuming you mean .5 diamonds but what ever. I have the fine diamond paste too. I put it on some maple for a while. Works great.

. . . but . . .
. . . you know . . .
it ain’t purple.
The Shapton 30,000 is purple.
THAT’S the difference. That’s what’s important here.

[David Weaver]

No no..... 0.05 is the right number. Here in the land of tool and die and lapping and such, you can get al ox from a company somewhere in the city (somewhere I've never been, but maybe I should go sometime)

Here's their page (they don't specialize in supplying hobbyist quantities of stuff and some of the suspensions are very weak and intended for something other than tool sharpening - maybe faceting).

http://www.us-products.com/sitehtml/lapping.html#dry

This is their lapping rules, thought it was interesting. It would be something George and David B. have known for eons.

I thought I had seen .01 here, but I guess not. They have al ox down to .05, it'll have to do as the level of fineness. I got the diamonds somewhere else.

[David Weaver]

. . . but . . .
. . . you know . . .
it ain’t purple.
The Shapton 30,000 is purple.
THAT’S the difference. That’s what’s important here.

Soylent Green is People.
Shapton Stone is Purple.






Scotland has the blarney stone and shapton has the Barney stone.

[Winton Applegate]

Scotland has the blarney stone and shapton has the Barney stone.

Ha, ha, ha, ha

Exactly

[Matthew N. Masail]

Once in that price range, why Isn't anyone looking at the Suehiro Gokumyo (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_587)stones? http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_587_588
as finishers the Razor guy's seem to feel they are the best non-natural stones, even better than the Chosera 10k.
According to a source the 20k is a better stone than the shapton 30K, both are 0.5.
in any case, I will have the 10K (which is 1micron so the same as a 15K shapton) in about2-3 weeks.

[Winton Applegate]

I am playing around some and guessing some. David has the real info
but

Why not consider Suehiro Gokumyo ?
Well because it isn't a Shapton. I want a "Set" of Shaptons.
:p
You know, neat little plastic boxes each a different color.

and here is the guess (though Sherlock says "Watson, I never guess".) :
maybe the razor stones are for high carbon steel and the Shaptons are engineered for the tougher A2 etc., steels.

I suppose in reality and putting all playing around aside, well most of it, if they are truly better than Shapton then I would consider the Suehiro Gokumyo.

Here is a side question since you brought up 10,000 stones.
I have the Ice Bear 10,000 (http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/icebear10000gritwaterstone.aspx) and found it to cause scratches on a uniformly polished surface (albeit extremely fine ones) when used after the 8,000 Norton where none were before going from 8,000 to the 10,000 and so to be inferior to even a Norton 8,000 (old USA made Norton as a posed to later Mexican made Norton). Does any one else here use the Ice Bear ?

[David Weaver]

Once in that price range, why Isn't anyone looking at the Suehiro Gokumyo (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_587)stones? http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_587_588
as finishers the Razor guy's seem to feel they are the best non-natural stones, even better than the Chosera 10k.
According to a source the 20k is a better stone than the shapton 30K, both are 0.5.
in any case, I will have the 10K (which is 1micron so the same as a 15K shapton) in about2-3 weeks.

Mostly I don't say anything about them because I never tried them.

It may be a better razor stone than the 30k shapton, I never had the chance to use either on a razor (there's many ways to skin the cat with a razor, and my honing is far too infrequent). It's definitely going to be a better stone than the chosera, which is more of a tool and knife stone, and has particles 3 times as large.

I've just gone away from the synthetics, otherwise I would've bought a gokumyo from stu out of curiosity. I have a "lifetime supply" of honings times about 4 from a small vintage japanese barber hone, which takes the steam out of chasing one down for razors (which are something a shaver hones very infrequently once they've got a good process - maybe once every 6 months at this point for me, and a very light amount of use from the hone - 5 minutes at the most). The steroid fueled honing on the shaving forums is more related to guys buying and then having to do major work on a bunch of different razors, and in some cases maybe not understanding ways to hone and use a razor and keep it sharp without grinding lots of it off all the time.

I don't actually know anyone who has used the gokumyo for woodworking, but I'm sure there are folks who do because it's available and they can.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Well, we will find out soon enough. possibly I'll make a video of it, so I can share more than just writing my own impressions of it. when I asked Stu about a really good finisher the recommendation was " a gokumyo or 8k dual-stone for final finishing, if your on a budget the 12k shapton work well enough"


as a side note - I discovered the sigma 1.2k barely loads if sharpening a stainless knife! it's opens up to a really great stone. but when I put a Hock O1 blade on it it loads in defiance as if to say "that stuff ain't what I was made for buddy!". interesting, but now I understand my Issue with the Sigma stones I have used.


Winton, I haven't used the 10k Ice bear but I know what you mean. I no longer care only what a grit rating of a stone is, I look for info about it's other qualities, because I have used a 3k stone than polishes nicely, a 6K that was finer but leaves deep scratches and a coarse edge, and an 8k that cut very well, but not so refined at all despite it's very uniform fine grit. after all you are rubbing against the binder too, so it's make-up and hardness seem to play a big roll in how well\fine a stone cuts.
binder in the Bester 2k (and I assume the others have similar or same binder maybe harder\softer) is on the hard side, but it still allows the stone to cut aggressively as if it were much softer. it also doesn't slip or skid and gives a solid connected feeling on the stone. other binders can be smooth but can have a tendency to make you chatter if your not careful, just something about it's make-up. So I can Imagine a 10K that leaves scratches, yeah.

BTW 10k, what does that mean? the Gokumyo 10k is 1 micron. the shapton 15K is 1 micron too. David mentions here than the Chosera 10k has particals as big as 3microns?
and some are selling 8k stones (like the kitayama) as 12k because "it leaves what they feel is a 12k finish so it's a 12k"

[David Weaver]

No, I think the particles in the chosera are something like 1.5 microns or in that range. Maybe 1.7 or something. The shapton 30k and gokumyo are 0.5 micron stones.

It's my opinion that none of the really expensive stones make sense from a value standpoint for woodworking (that includes the expensive natural japanese stones, the cadre of 1/2 micron stones and the chosera 10k), but I do have some of them anyway. They are an indulgence. It's very easy to get their level of sharpness (and beyond) elsewhere, often for about $10.

For really sharp, the compromise to me is the shapton 15k pro and SP 13k.

I had the kitayama. It's a bit slippery to call it 12k, but it was a decent old school stone of the king 8k type and I like it better than the king 8k. At $58 or whatever it can be found for sometimes, though, it's a nice stone, but a step down in sharpness vs. a shapton 12k and an easy full step vs. the sigma power 13k.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I donna.... I tried many not so expensive finishing stones, and non of them were smooth and sharp as I had hoped, they all had their issue. maybe I should have tried the shapton. the 10K Gokumyo from Stu is less than 200$ shipped to the US, if it gives the performance I'm hoping it will, it is well worth that. most of us end up spending that much experimenting anyway. I don't think it's necessary, I love the edge I can get out of a 1k stone + 5micron lapping film which I live off while I don't have any other stones, but having a stone that you love to use and does what you expect it to is worth enough to push most of us to look for it.


BTW so far from very little experience what a soft+hard ark seem to do is lovely, and well worth spending 150$ on a nice size hard ark from Dan's or whatever. I have wasted that much trying to get away with cheaper stones. to me, anything that makes sharpening a non issue and\or fun is worth it for what it does to your work rythem.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks for the info about the kitayama. is it harder than a king 8k? is it a capable stone, as it can take over after a 1k?
I still don't know what to recommend when people ask me for a economy full size stone solution. most likely I'd recomend a Bester 2k (eventualy I'll go over to someone to try a 1k shapton) and somthing.. but what I don't have a solid option for a fine stone that I tried personaly yet.

[David Weaver]

It's a little more dense and less soft than a king, but still a soft stone. It can follow a 1k stone as well as any of the very fine stones, and if the sense is during sharpening that it can't, it's just a matter of working less metal. it benefits from its surface being kept fresh, just like the king, and it doesn't smell funny in use like the king does.

If it's bought lowest cost, it's a really nice stone for $60 or so. I do like it better than the king 8k all things considered, but always noticed the polish was bright and more uniform off of the shapton 15, and the consistency of edge keenness better off of the shapton 15k.

I'm now in the category that you described - what's satisfying to sharpen with. I had consistently sharper edges with a shapton pro 15k than I do off of oilstones, but I didn't enjoy the stones as much and I can get that sharpness when I want to, even off of a finish oilstone if willing to spend the time. I just like the feel of the oilstones better.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I have a feeling I am going to end up pretty much the same, with oil stones. For me only natural ones, probably Arkansas used with window cleaner and not oil. I have no interest in India stones and the likes.
Some strong water stones to work backs and other hard work, I wouldn't want to do any re-habing on Arkansas stones.