Wow! Great wife! - this is about a table saw

[Dale Murray]

Tonight my wife suggests I order my table saw and have it delivered before my birthday, she was going to order it and surprise me but then thought I should be a bit more involved in the process. I am quite sure she would have purchase the correct item no less.

After much internal conflict and debate I have decided to get a Sawstop. This decision is based on two things:
1- It does appear to be a very good tool that is well built. (though the inventor could be considered a tool himself too).
2- My wife really wants me to have the safety of this machine. I want her to have buy in on a $3000+ purchase, and I do.

The saw will be 3hp 220, 36" fence, and rolling base.

I am going to hold off on this until August or September, this is prime yard work time and having that saw sitting there mostly unused while I dig trenches, paint the house, build raised flower beds, and a set of compost bins would be torture.

Another torture I am suffering is PCS v ICS.
Since I was just a wee little lad I had been told to only get a cabinet saw with a one piece cast iron trunnion. The ICS has one, the PCS does not. It seems the PCS owners are wildly happy with their saws but do they know what they are missing by not having a 1 piece trunnion? And that weight, that 250+ lbs of iron? Does that not make a difference in vibration of stability?

Oh wo is me who has a wife endorsing the purchase of expensive machine and I cannot make up my mind.

Thoughts?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I wish I had your dilemma?:D

[Dan Rude]

:D I just went through this, I have the PCS 3hp, 36 in fence with (mobile base rebate/free with purchase before April 30th) It is now sitting in my Basement awaiting the assembly this weekend. I have been wanting one for awhile, and wanting to teach my kids woodworking with one, I feel better about them using it. My son and I used an appliance dolly to get it down my basement stairs. He was shocked it weighed as much as it did. He of course had the bottom spot, even though he is 15, he already is 6' 4". I opted for the PCS due to my narrow stairway down to my shop area. I'll post Pictures of the progress on my own thread later. Glad someone else has one of those girls that just make us happy. :D Dan

[John Sanford]

Good dilemma to have, now I'll just throw more sand into your decision making gears. If you intend to put a router table onto the table saw, know that the ICS is unusually deep. I was recently fortunate enough to secure a Benchdog cast iron router table extension from another Creeker who had gotten an ICS. He wasn't able to use the table, which is the standard 27" wide to match a standard 27" deep table saw. Of course, if your router table (if you have/plan to have one) and table saw go their own separate ways, this is a non-issue for you.

[Brian Williamson]

I can't speak to the differences between the PCS and ICS, but I rolled with the ICS and it is a solid piece of equipment. My 2 cents is go big.

[Keith Hankins]

Congrats! I went through your trouble (smile) a couple months back. You will absolutely love that tool. It is quality for top to bottom.

I did go with the ICS but for a specific reason. I had a grizzly 3hp 1023 for 9+ years. I struggled to spend the money to upgrade but have wanted a sawstop for the safety since they first came out. Saved for years, and recently got a couple projects that funded the rest. I really wanted to upgrade to 5hp. If the PCS had come in 5hp I would have went that direction.

There are a few benefits with the ICS i.e. more cast iron. A tad more depth on the table which i have to admit is nice, but not a deal breaker. The interlocks are nice to disable the power, but thats not a concern for me as my kids are grown so unless my twin nephews are visiting it won't matter. I do really love the ICS though and you will love the PCS if you go that route

The dust collection is top notch! A couple of recommendations. First get the industrial base, it's worth every penny. Second, unless you really need the space for ply, you don't need the longest rails. I had the 7' rails on my griz and it took up some space, but add the width of the ICS table and those long rails really take up space. IT's nice but big! Only thing I'd do diff is probably go with the next size down. IT's great space to hold things but it will chew up floor space.
Customer service is top notch. After I'd had mine for a few weeks, I noticed on the fence rail in the front, a small chip in the powder coating. I don't know if it happened when I put the fence in or if it came that way. I mean 1/16" wide by about 1/4" long. I called and asked if that had some touch-up paint just to keep it from rusting. Nope, new rail on the way no question no nothing. It arrived and is downstairs waiting to install. (been there for a month).

Default blade that comes with it is ok, but I'd replace it. I got their top quality gold blade that is very reasonable and ships quick. It is based on the Forrest WWII design and the cut quality is good. For the $$ it's a great value. I however have been a Forrest fan forever, and the amount of carbide and quality of cut just is top notch. I got a new WWII and that's my go to blade.

I did a review on my purchase on another forum if you want the details on the ICS.

[David Kumm]

I'm an old iron guy so take it for what it is worth. I have had discussions with hard core heavy machine guys and taking the safety factor out of the equation, the ICS is considered built to a better standard than the old 10" saws and almost up to the build of the 12" PM 72, Rockwell 12-14 catagory. Whether you need that is your call but the internal differences are significant between the two models. Dave

[Dale Murray]

I really appreciate all the positive feedback on this thread. I know she was prepared to spend $3200 in the next couple weeks, maybe I can scrounge up another $1000 and get into the ICS. Something about the "hybrid" style trunnion on the PCS bugs me.

I downloaded the manuals for ICS and PCS last night, the images of the trunnions are huge so far as I can tell. It appears the ICS could be used as a tornado shelter it is built so well.

BTW, mine will live in my heated/air conditioned insulated garage. I have a walk out basement so even then the weight is not a concern.

What I may do is buy something items in anticipation like dado set, a great blade for plywood - new bathroom vanities and kitchen cabinets are the first major projects to be tackled.

Thoughts on dado sets?

[eugene thomas]

Congrats on the saw but have feeling talking wife into saw stop if can manage the coast not to hard a sell.

[Michael Stockdale]

I just made the exact same decision with prompting from my wife... Ended up buying the 5hp ICS, as I figured this saw will be with me for many, many years to come. The ICS is built like a tank! 650lbs with teh 52" fence! You will definitely want access to a pallet jack or very good friends when it comes time to drag it into your shop! :)

Good luck with the purchase... I love mine! Glad I showed that hot dog video to the wife!

Mike

[Thomas L. Miller]

Dale,
I bought my ICS under similar circumstances. Prior to the purchase, I used a PCS at a woodworking school. The ICS just has more mass. The larger table and heavier internal guts are heavier on the ICS than the PCS. The mobile base is also wonderful. My wife "pulled the trigger" in a Woodcraft store after I had experienced a kick back on a contractor saw with no riving knife and put a nice dent in a garage door. Sometimes, visuals help. :) Enjoy the new saw. In either case, you will be getting a really nice saw.
Tom

[Dale Murray]

She knew from the get go I would be spending $3000+, and she has known that for years.
Initially I was only looking at Delta Unisaw. Seems there have been issues with ownership, supply etc.
This led me to consider Powermatic PM2000.
The Sawstop PCS seemed like a no brainer as it fell into the same price range then I learned of the hybrid style trunnion and then scratched it off the list.
Then I learned of the ICS and the $1000 premium.

I am worried I am putting to much emphasis on the trunnions or not enough. I am pretty certain this will be the only cabinet saw I ever purchase.

I just glanced as a Wood Magazine 3hp saw review and the top two were PCS and Unisaw. Noted items:
PCS -
- exclusive safety blade-brake
- rip fence that did not deflect at all
- blade guard and riving knife are easily setup
- a built-in mobile base
- best dust collection of the group.
Unisaw -
- made-in-the-U.S.
- favorite blade guard and riving-knife system of the group
- great miter gauge
- largest crosscut capacity in front of the blade
- large top
- massive trunnion
- heaviest saw, front loaded controls.

My point is they specify the joy of a massive trunnion, larger top, and weight, as being beneficial - both are features of the ICS saw too. For the record, Unisaw is not on my current list but used as an example.

[Dale Murray]

Dale,
I bought my ICS under similar circumstances. Prior to the purchase, I used a PCS at a woodworking school. The ICS just has more mass. The larger table and heavier internal guts are heavier on the ICS than the PCS.

You are exactly the person I need!
Can you specify performance differences between the two saws since you have experience with them both such as:
- vibration
- stability
- repeat-ability
- flex

The 52" is out of the question for me, definitely 36", 3hp. I have a track saw to break down sheet stock.

[James Hansen]

I went from a Unisaw (which i purchased new about 24 years ago) sold it and got a PCS 3HP with a 52" and a ICS mobile base, love the base with the hydraulic lift and full swivel casters so you can move it any direction without having to "parallel park" it. After getting the sawstop and using it for a while, I became very impressed with the overall quality of the saw, they didn't just make a saw that will stop in the event of a contact, they made a saw that meets or exceeds my old Unisaw quality.

[Ron Griffiths]

I also had a Unisaw and went with the ICS. The Sawstop ICS is a great saw and glad I got it. The mobile bas is great. Makes moving the saw around very easy and this saw is solid! Likeit much more than my unisaw.

[johnny means]

As mentioned earlier the ICS was designed to compete with other manufacturer's 12" saws. The smaller Sawstops were brought about after the flagship ICS to compete in the hobbiest/"light duty" realm. I opted for the ICS because, well that's all they had at the time. It does make every other 10" saw feel smallish. If an extra grand or so isn't a huge deal I would say go big.

As far as dado choice goes I would advise against the Freud Dial-a-Width. The adjustment mechanism eats up too much space on the shortish arbor.

[glenn bradley]

I'm a happy PCS owner and went from a all cast iron trunnion to the PCS. If you wanted to really simplify it, steel is stronger that cast iron and the PCS trunnion is cast iron and steel. All that being said I am always a fan of too much power over too little. The PCS 3HP has shown no signs of inadequate power for what I do; YMMV. Now if my 2HP bandsaw had an extra pony or 2 I wouldn't complain a bit.

[Rod Sheridan]

Tonight my wife suggests I order my table saw and have it delivered before my birthday, she was going to order it and surprise me but then thought I should be a bit more involved in the process. I am quite sure she would have purchase the correct item no less.

After much internal conflict and debate I have decided to get a Sawstop. This decision is based on two things:
1- It does appear to be a very good tool that is well built. (though the inventor could be considered a tool himself too).
2- My wife really wants me to have the safety of this machine. I want her to have buy in on a $3000+ purchase, and I do.

The saw will be 3hp 220, 36" fence, and rolling base.

I am going to hold off on this until August or September, this is prime yard work time and having that saw sitting there mostly unused while I dig trenches, paint the house, build raised flower beds, and a set of compost bins would be torture.

Another torture I am suffering is PCS v ICS.
Since I was just a wee little lad I had been told to only get a cabinet saw with a one piece cast iron trunnion. The ICS has one, the PCS does not. It seems the PCS owners are wildly happy with their saws but do they know what they are missing by not having a 1 piece trunnion? And that weight, that 250+ lbs of iron? Does that not make a difference in vibration of stability?

Oh wo is me who has a wife endorsing the purchase of expensive machine and I cannot make up my mind.

Thoughts?

Congratulations, you had the foresight to marry a smart woman.

The cast iron versus steel versus aluminum is one of the silliest discussions around.

At one time, engineering was poor with a limited ability to perform complex structural analysis. That has all changed, which means that selecting a material based upon some story from 1904 is about as reasonable as deciding you're only going to buy chartreuse coloured machinery.

Leave the engineering to the engineers, and buy a machine in the quality range you want, with the features you want.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. Hopefully it will rain this summer so all your gardening doesn't dry up and blow away. Might be nice to have a new machine to enjoy on a rainy day.

[Keith Hankins]

I have a forrest dado king that's great but i don't use it much. I'd rather use a router myself. You will need a dado cartridge and a throat plate.

[Dale Murray]

I was thinking Forrest or Infinity Dadonator.

This all new to me so research must happen.

[Larry Frank]

I have the PCS with the industrial base and could not be happier. It does everything that I have ever asked it to do and never even began to push its capability.

I can understand wanting the biggest, baddest, heaviest and highest power machine just to be able to say you have it.

But unless, you are doing some real heavy woodworking and ripping 2" thick stock all the time, I think that the PCS is plenty of machine. Just think what other tools you can buy with the difference in money between the PCS and ICS.

[Mac Cambra]

Dale I was fortunate to not have to make the choice between PCS and ICS because when I bought mine they only offered he ICS. In my case it hurt when I paid for it but haven't looked back since. The Sawstop is a great saw, assembly is easy, and mine was 0.002" accurate out of the box, no adjustments. This saw was an upgrade from a Unisaw, loved that one too but it really didn't compare. The unisaw just lacked the refinement of the Sawstop.

You won't regret either choice.

[Roger Feeley]

My wife also got me an ICS. The manager of my local Woodcraft tells me that spouses make a lot of SS sales for him. It's gotten to the point that he doesn't stock Deltas or PM saws anymore. He orders one from time to time but most everyone wants SawStop.

[Mike Henderson]

I have a 3 HP PCS and I've never regretted it. It's all the saw I need. And it does everything I ask of it.

Mike

[mreza Salav]

I have the ICS and it's a very fine saw, the only thing I would change if I could would be to go 5HP instead of 3HP. I never thought I would say this but after ripping thousands of feet of 8/4 Maple I can see the machine struggles sometimes (and I have stalled it a couple of times btw).

[Scott Rychnovsky]

Congratulations on the fine wife!

I went through the same process last year and decided I was going to get a PCS. I checked Craigslist and found a used ICS for sale at a competitive price. I bought it and then replaced and upgraded the worn parts to get a very nice 3 HP ICS with a 36" fence. I am very happy with it, but I think I would have been happy with the PCS. I was upgrading from a contractor's saw, so the 3 HP feels like a luxury. I am sure I could find some way to bog it down, but I have not managed it yet. I am clearly a light-duty hobbyist and can always take it easy with the feed rate to minimize problems. When I talked with the SawStop support people (Great Support!) they commented that the 3 HP 1 phase systems have fewer problems then the 5 HP 1 phase systems.

What ever you get, I strongly recommend the ICS base. It is a really pleasure to slide it around my workspace with no problem at all.

Have fun with the new toy.

Scott

[Anthony Diodati]

sounds like you got a Keeper.
Oh Yeah, The Saw and her!!

[Thomas L. Miller]

Dale,
The differences are really related to the mass and dimensions of the ICS compared to the PCS. The ICS is just smoother and has no vibration at all. I wasn't troubled by vibration on the PCS I used. The trunnion on the PCS moves nicely, but the ICS trunnion has a more solid and smoother feel. It's precise and stays put. That said, I had no problems AT ALL with the PCS I used. The ICS has the same "DNA" as the PCS, it's a bigger brother and the original saw in the Sawstop line. The fence and blade height on both saws enable excellent repeatability. I have the 52" table and really like it, but if you're really tight for space, then the 36" is a great option on both saws. One option I've seen severely folks do is to incorporate a router lift into the right side on a 52" table in order to free up floor space by getting rid of a discreet router table. I can' say I've had experience with this option. I haven't experienced any flex with either saw. I'm a hobbyist and have no experience in a commercial woodworking environment. My ICS has a 3 hp motor. I've never felt it bog down at all. I use full kerf blades. I've cut walnut, cherry, ash, maple and pine in thicknesses up to 8/4 thicknesses. I ripped 200 board feet of 8/4 ash to build a workbench and the saw worked never slowed down. I use a track saw to break down sheet goods as well, but when it comes to trimming the ends off a table top, I like using the long table. The extra depth of the top on the ICS is nice when using a sled as well. I'd be happy to talk about it some more, if you have any more questions you can always PM me. Hope this helps,
Tom

[Andy Pratt]

I have had the 3hp ICS since 2007 and used it almost daily for my business, you can't go wrong with that saw. I can count my complaints of 7 years on one hand and they are all tiny nitpicky things, which means the saw has been flawless in every important area. People often say that the saw is a "pm2000, but better" and I would directly agree with that statement, everything about it is top notch, no corners cut.

Only comment I would make if you are buying blades ahead of time is to not mix and match saw blade brands (but really the exact diameter is what is important) when you buy new blades for the saw. You have to micro adjust the safety brake to any blade that is slightly different diameter from your last, so that gets annoying real fast (extra minute per blade change). For example, switching between freud blades on my saw I make no brake adjustment and just change the blade like a normal saw. If I wanted to switch from a freud to a forrest, I have to adjust the mechanism with an allen wrench, since the forrest 10" blade I tried was a bit larger diameter than the freud 10" blades I have. Needless to say I'm glad I just have one brand of blades and only tried the forrest on loan as an experiment.

You only need more than 3hp if you are using a power feed, I have cut 8/4 jatoba on the 3hp as fast as I could push it and you can barely tell the difference between that and cutting 1" maple. I have never felt that 3hp was inadequate in any way, and feel it could probably cut up to 3" hardwood at hand-push speed just as well as the 5hp.

Sawstop customer service has been excellent btw, in that I have only had to call them once in 7 years and the one time I called the issue was resolved in less than 5 minutes.

[Tim Janssen]

If you get the PCS get the ICS base. Makes moving the machine so much easier, all four casters swivel.
Cheers,

Tim

[Wade Lippman]

I have no doubt the ICS is much better; I just couldn't justify the price so I got the PCS. I couldn't see how 400 pounds isn't heavy enough for anything.
But if you have the room, its crazy not to get the 52" table.

[Dale Murray]

Bringing that badboy back up to the top.

As of last night I was told she would rather I order sooner than later as in she almost bought it tonight on Amazon. So, before the trigger is pulled anybody have stories of scoring a better price off a local seller - woodcraft, independent tool dealer, etc? PM me if this is inappropriate for a thread,

I want an ICS but will get a PCS, the extra grand is more than I can afford.
It will be 3hp and 36"

Yes, my wife kinda rules.

[glenn bradley]

Seems to be a recurring offer of either a free mobility kit or a free overarm collection rig. I got the over arm. Go ahead and order a spare cartridge now. I also ordered an extra ZCI but, there are now other options; in addition o buying SS inserts or others you can just refill the slot with epoxy. I have done this a few times so far.

[William C Rogers]

I think you will find the price will be the same where ever you buy it. SawStop doesn't allow dealers to discount the saw. You may be able to get a dealer to do the setup or provide free shipping and possibly on line to avoid paying sales tax and free shipping. The base/arm promotion is from SawStop and not the dealer. They run that from March through April each year. I opted to use a dealer and he provided the setup.

like you, I couldn't justify another grand for the ICS.

[Kevin Womer]

I have the PCS, I am just a hobbyist but it is all the saw I will ever need. I do recommend the industrial mobile base, if you want to be able to move it. Best wishes.

[Dale Murray]

This story has taken a turn. I thought I would be buying a 36" 3hp PCS and instead scored a 3hp 52" ICS at a ridiculous price on Ebay. I picked it up tonight and it is great.

It is currently disassembled in the garage. The next few days will be spent cleaning and reassembling it.

I put a tool gloat post here:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?218905-Late-Night-Tool-Gloat-Sawstop-ICS