plane iron camber

[Curtis Niedermier]

How man of you use a camber on all of your plane irons? Right now, I only use a camber on my No. 5 Stanley, which I use primarily as a scrub plane. On my No. 607 jointer, bevel-up LV jointer and bevel-up LV smoothing plane, I just round off the corners.

However, I'm having a tough time flattening the faces of some oak boards with the 607. I can't stay in the cut very well when making lengthwise passes with the grain. I'm thinking that with a slight camber I could stay in the cut more easily, but I really have no idea. Even with a sharp blade, it's tough.

The reason I left the iron straight is for jointing edges. I thought the straight edge would be best.

Thoughts?

[Jim Koepke]

Sounds like a possible bowed board or a dull blade.

jtk

[bridger berdel]

trouble staying in the cut sounds to me like not enough clearance angle on your final bevel. what angle do you hone to?

another unlikely thing that can make it hard to stay in the cut os a badly concave sole.

[David Weaver]

I use some camber with everything, but don't think it's your issue here, either.

[Sean Hughto]

Charlesworth makes a reasonable case for a cambered jointer.

Mind you there is camber and there is camber. A camber on a scrub is a piece of an arc that is huge and obvious to the eye. A camber on a smoother or jointer is a few more strokes on the stone to form - it's thousandths that more or less just means the balde cuts from the center first, but just barely.

[Steve Voigt]

I agree with everyone who's said that camber is not the problem, and will probably not fix what is ailing your plane.
However, to your question: I also use camber on nearly every iron. When I am flattening boards, I'll set my plane up as a trying plane, and will have a few thousandths camber.
You mentioned wanting the iron straight for jointing. I use a little camber even for jointing, but if you prefer straight, it doesn't have to affect your setup for flattening. You can add or remove small amount of camber very easily. Just grind the iron straight. When you hone, lean on the corners to get some camber. If you want to take the camber out, just re-hone, putting all the emphasis on the center of the iron. So, if you want, you can find just the right amount of camber for flattening, then when it's time for edge jointing, you can take the camber out.
Thinking about camber as a flexible thing that you can manipulate on the fly, as opposed to something you're locked into on each iron, adds another dimension to your planing.

[Jim Koepke]

trouble staying in the cut sounds to me like not enough clearance angle on your final bevel. what angle do you hone to?

another unlikely thing that can make it hard to stay in the cut os a badly concave sole.

Both of these are good points.

In a typical case where someone asks a question about a problem we base our answers on a limited foundation.

For me a quick read of the OP gives me the impression the #607 has been used a lot in the past even though there is nothing in the post to that effect.

If there was mention of using the BU jointer without the problem then it looks to be the bad clearance angle or concave sole is suspect #1 & 2.

Another problem could be in the way the work is held. If it is too tight in a tail vise, that could cause the work to bow with a similar problem.

A block plane I once owned always seemed to come out at the end of a cut. It took me awhile to realize it was because not as much pressure was on the plane at the end of the cut. The sole was concave and the body flexed a few thousandths to make it seem okay until the downward force was relaxed.

If a plane works with downward force but stumbles with only horizontal effort then it might be a good idea to put a straight edge on the sole.

jtk

[Curtis Niedermier]

I haven't changed the bevel on the blade from what came on it from LV - it's a replacement blade. All I did was hone it with a micro-bevel of a couple degrees difference.

I'll check the sole tonight. That could be it.

Admittedly, I'm still figuring out some of the quirks of my older Stanley planes, and I tend to lean heavily on my LV bevel-up jack. That thing is a workhorse and is capable of anything and everything I ask of a plane. I just haven't spent enough time with the Stanley plane to tune it up to where it should be, and that's because as soon as there is a stumble, I put it down and pick up the LV bevel-up plane.

I suppose I need to spend an afternoon getting better acquainted with the Stanley.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[David Weaver]

If you love the BU jack, you can just keep with it and ignore all other planes.

Some of us prefer the stanley planes over the BU planes for various reasons, but it doesn't mean you have to.

[Pedro Reyes]

Curtis,

I used to be like you (as far as not wanting camber on hardly anything). Recently I changed that, very slight and close to none on smoothing planes, but all bench planes get camber. I do not do it like Charlesworth does it (or for those reasons) I just think it helps a bit.

In your case, I don't think it is that either. I recently worked with a lot of cherry and the project had to use some white oak long boards (for rockers). I should say, white oak is quite a different workout, so could it just be that, were you working with nicer (to work with) wood and then the oak seemed like a beast? I rehoned, applied more wax to my soles and it helped a lot, it was still more work than cherry.

Pedro

[Jim Koepke]

I just haven't spent enough time with the Stanley plane to tune it up to where it should be, and that's because as soon as there is a stumble, I put it down and pick up the LV bevel-up plane.

If one plane works at the task and another doesn't that clearly points to there being a problem with one plane. It could be sharpness or it could be the plane body.

How long have you had the #607?

jtk

[Scott Rud]

Keep in mind, if you decide to camber your iron in the bevel up jack, you'll need a lot of it to make it noticeable. The low (12 degree, if I recall correctly) makes adding camber to bevel up planes a challenge.

[Winton Applegate]

Charlesworth makes a reasonable case for a cambered jointer.

Heyyyy !
I agree !


sounds to me like not enough clearance angle on your final bevel
Yup
That was what came to my mind.

Curtis,

Have you been stropping again ?
Commmme Onnnnnn
You can tell ussssss.

Maybe just a little . . .
when you think nobody is looking ?

Strop BAD.
Grind and hone GOOOOOD.

PS: all my blades have at least the corners turned up a little for finish blades, to a slight camber for even the jointers, to lots of camber for the scrubs.

Don't rely on a straight blade to make a flat surface or a perfectly jointed butt joint.
Straight edges to check the surfaces is the way to go; and squares.

[Curtis Niedermier]

So I figured out that the sole is slightly concave from toe to heel. It does seem to lift the blade out if the cut sometimes, but only when taking an extremely light cut.

The iron is sharpened at 30 degrees from the factory. It's an LV PMV-11. After I work on the sole I might try 25 degrees, but I'm not sure yet. 25 is kind of the standard for a bevel-down Stanley, right?

[Jim Koepke]

25 is kind of the standard for a bevel-down Stanley, right?

That is the angle Stanley recommended.

Some prefer 30º.

jtk

[Steve Voigt]

So I figured out that the sole is slightly concave from toe to heel. It does seem to lift the blade out if the cut sometimes, but only when taking an extremely light cut.


That is most likely the problem. You really don't want any concavity. A little convexity is ok.

[Winton Applegate]

A Lee Valley (Varitas) plane sole out of flat ? ? ? ?
Unlikely.
What are you checking it with ?
And what did you use to check THAT with ?

Sounds like I am being funny BUT I AM NOT.

I would suspect your straight edge before I would suspect an LV plane.

Check again before you sand.

PS: if it is out of flat they will help you I am sure.

[Winton Applegate]

PS: what is a PMV-11 ?
I searched and came up with this (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=69847&cat=1,41504).

EDIT
Oh yah that new fangled steel.
And you are putting it in that old door stop.

I warned you about those.
What is your time worth ?
Makes a new LV plane look pretty good doesn't it ?

[Steve Voigt]

And you are putting it in that old door stop.

I warned you about those.
What is your time worth ?
Makes a new LV plane look pretty good doesn't it ?

What is the purpose of trying to convince someone that a tool he owns is no good, and that he needs to spend several hundred dollars on another?
If you read this forum (and others) with an open mind, you would discover that hundreds, maybe thousands of people have found they can plane anything with an old Stanley. Personally, since I learned to use a double iron, I haven't found a species I couldn't plane.
If you are unable, or can't be bothered, to make a double iron work, that's fine. But that doesn't mean no one else should.
I'm not particularly interested in bevel up planes. But if someone here was having trouble making one work, I would never tell him to throw it away and get a BD plane. It seems downright mean-spirited.

[Joe Tilson]

I just changed a Handyman #4 from 25 to 30 degrees it helped and made a good cutter. The Sweetheart #4 I have is working fine at 25 degrees. It was a little concave and had to be flattened some. Quality does make a difference, but the lack of monetary funds make for rust hunts. I have learned to pace myself and look for quality. In time one can come up with some really good tools, and the Stanley #45 picked up a couple of weeks ago is one of those finds that keeps you looking for more. Just one thing; my wife went to yard sales with our daughter this morning, instead of taking me. She must want to buy something for herself for a change, and I don't blame her. I haven't tried camber yet. If seems the next thing to try.

[Curtis Niedermier]

Hey Winton, thanks for the constructive advice.... However, I didn't say that the LV plane's sole is concave. The old Stanley's sole is concave. Checked it with three straight edges to be sure. Sharpened it up today and had a lot better results. I'll keep you updated on the old doorstop's progress.

[Brian Holcombe]

If you freehand sharpen and tend to lean on the front of the blade to get a good burr than you will eventually need to regrind the bevel. When you are at that point the plane will not respond well to the depth adjustment, but then will take a huge cut out of the blue.

if the board is out of flat across the width the plane will not cut well along the length.