Help with Whetstones - stepping up to a Naniwa 10k

[John Haworth]

I'm paranoid as hell as a first time poster about breaking any forum rules so I hope I'm in the right place. I recently acquired a 10k Naniwa Chosera to hone a straight shaving razor my girlfriend bought me a while back. I've been working with the stone for a while now and am getting in to restoring some of my family tools which include a set of Stanley chisels and a number 4 plane (among others) - just to give some indication of the steel types I'm working with.

As you can probably tell from the immediate leap to a 10K I am a bit of an equipment obsessive especially when it comes to maintenance. A lot of my gear is in need of a bit more of a progressive step up than the razor which I first bought my hone for and I'm now reconciling myself to the addition of another stone (based on some of the boards I believe the 10k may have been a gateway drug). On the board http://www.sawmillcreek.org/archive/index.php/t-180691.html (if I knew how to reference something from the archive properly I would) Chris Giggs mentioned that he would almost have been happy to move from a 1k to the 10K Naniwa Chosera. I'd love it if i could get away with the addition of one rather than two stones.

I'm hoping that the 1k will get me through bevel setting and a little patience will let me step up to the 10k without the need for investing in another stone.

I should mention a special thank you to David Weaver and Chris for their conversations I'd read prior to this as they helped the decision to splash some cash for the 10k which I love using. If anyone can help with advice on stepping up to the 10k I'd appreciate the help. I'm slowly rebuilding my workshop after leaving home and moving to London so some help here would go a long way to getting me set up again

[Matthew N. Masail]

if you'd like to wait a little, I have the chosera 800 and 3000 on order. I'll be back home around the 3-4 of June to start putting them through their passes and I'd be happy to offer my input.


My 2 cents:
as a rule, 1K to 10K is a big jump, might be ok with the 10K Chosera and it depends which 1k.
a middle stone would still be beneficial, but not necessary to get blades more than sharp enough to work wood. for razors you might want a tighter progression, but I'll leave it to others to chime in on that.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I think if you keep the sharpening area very small (by hollow grinding or keeping the secondary bevel very small) you can get away with that jump. It would be tough to lap the back of a blade to a full polish, but there are work-arounds for that (create a back bevel, use wet-dry sandpaper on a flat surface to fill in the intermediate grits, etc.) And besides, you know you will definitely need a stone in the 800-1000 grit range so there's no risk in buying that. If you then discover it's taking too long to remove 1k grit scratches with the 10k stone, you can buy a 5k or something.

For what it's worth, my current setup is Shapton Pro 1k, 5k, and 15k. It's pretty efficient for most sharpening needs outside of reshaping a bevel (I have coarse diamond stones and sandpaper for that). I can still see some coarser scratches on larger surfaces like a chisel back when I'm done with the 15k, but it's mostly a mirror polish and plenty fine for my needs. I've used lots of setups and have only ever gotten the perfect mirror finish from power buffing, which is not something I'd want to do on woodworking tools.

[David Weaver]

You can use any 1k stone and the chosera. Chris likes the 800 chosera (which is about the same fineness as a shapton 1000 pro), I like the shapton 1k pro and haven't tried the chosera 800 or 1000.

In anything that you're doing, you can spend some extra time on the chosera 10k to make up for the lack of a middle stone. Razors included. I honed several razors straight from a bester 1200, which is in the same ballpark as any other 1k stone, and to the chosera. You just have to make sure you work the stone until you can't see anything on the edge of the razor with a loupe (or the bevel for that matter, too, though the bevel will look polished before the edge is quite ready).

There should only be one time - setting the razor bevel - that you will need to be below the 10k chosera, and it is, in my opinion, a bit strong even for a maintenance stone for razors. I've been through a lot of razors for experimentation and am down to using only one of them now. I hone it about once every 3-6 months on a vintage japanese barber hone, which is more a correction of edge wear than a fix for sharpness. It is the use of a proper linen and a broken in horse butt strop that allows that duration.

But, anyway, if you're setting bevels on razors that haven't been used for a while, or that have been maintained entirely with pasted strops, you'll appreciate the 1k, and as long as you're not doing one a day, you won't care about the lack of the middle stone.

Same with tools. you can flatten the back with a 1k stone, and polish or partially polish the back with the chosera 10k and let maintenance sharpening of the tools (where you need to work the back of an iron enough to remove a wear bevel) gradually work the polish up. There's no great need for absolute perfection in polish on the back of an iron before you start using tools, but there is a need for the back to be coplanar so removal of any wire edge bits hanging on is easy with the polish stone. The latter makes a much bigger difference. So, use the 1k stone and get the back dead flat, and then do your back flattening of the tools, but don't worry if you don't bring them to a full polish right away - just get a decent start on it and start using the tools - unless you like the polishing work, and then go ahead and do it all at once.

I flattened and prepared a lot of tools with just a shapton 1k and 15k and that's a bigger jump, because the stone is finer and slower than a chosera 10k. Immediate perfection in the polish is overrated. Having the edge be coplanar with the stone so the wire edge is worked with the iron or chisel laid flat on it is not.

[John Haworth]

if you'd like to wait a little, I have the chosera 800 and 3000 on order. I'll be back home around the 3-4 of June to start putting them through their passes and I'd be happy to offer my input.

Thanks for the offer Mathew, Given David and Robert's advice I'm going to crack on and get a 1K chosera on order but I'll follow your progress. Thanks for the razor tips David, in this case its a pretty poor razor (will be having words about the future quality of my birthday presents) , I'm probably going to invest in a new one and relegate the Kedake blade to the workshop for marking out. I've got some chromium oxide on order for when that comes to through along with a narrow 2 1/2 inch strop (which I will also probably end up replacing). I'm looking forwards to having a new toy to play with

[David Weaver]

I've only had one new razor, a dovo bismarck. It was OK, but it's not the equal of the vintage razor that I have (or any that I've kept). It's less hard (I think dovo uses some sort of modern chrome vanadium type steel). Well, I also got an unused new grind from a friodur blank, as well as a new iwasaki kamisori.

My suggestion, as a former pig of razors, is to go through a couple of good vintage razors until you find one that's dead nuts straight with a good even bevel and little spine wear. That'll be the nicest razor in the long term because when you put it to the stone, the whole razor will be on the stone, and you can maintain with a very fine stone.

Of all of the razors I've had, probably 1/3rd to 1/2 have been dead flat. Other than a kamisori, dovo bismarck and three stainless friodur types, I've never spent more than $65 on a used razor, and most less than that by a significant amount.

The nice thing about used razors is you can unload them for what you paid, sometimes more. There are folks who move razors all the time and shave with 10 different ones and never settle on one, and that's OK, too, but it's easier to keep one performing at super top level if you stick with just one or maybe two of the best and straightest.

This is my favorite for a couple of reasons:
* it's reasonably hard and stays sharp
* it's the straightest razor I have ever used - the bevel is perfection
* it has weight in the spine, but the grind is super fine - a fine grind at the business end makes for less drag, but if it's thin all of the way to the top, it can feel underweight.

Anyway, just suggestions. This was the second razor I ever bought. I went through another two dozen probably before I realized that none of them were any better than this, and most have flaws it doesn't. You can certainly try new razors, but don't be surprised if they don't match the better vintage razors.

Mind the spinework on some razors, too. This one has smooth spine work. The ones where the spine work is sharp or ends up at angles or has thin grooves cut in it (like the dovo bismarck) will mar a strop and hold compound too much - I'm not a fan of either of those things.

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[Jim Koepke]

John,

Welcome to the Creek.

Everyone has different ways to get to sharpness.

It all depends on what needs to be sharpened. Now days most of the time my blades just need to be refreshed. A few rubs on a 4,000 stone, a few more on an 8,000 stone, a few swipes on a strop and I am back to work.

At one time almost every blade in my shop was forgotten old tool that had seen better days. This is where a large hunk of granite and rolls of adhesive backed 80 grit sand paper came in very handy. I haven't bought many junk store finds of late.

From the 80 grit I would go to the 1,000, the 4,000, 8,000 and the strop.

To reestablish a bevel you need something that cuts fast like a coarse abrasive paper or a powered grinder.

Once a bevel is established the 4,000 may not be necessary but it saves time and wear on the 8,000 (in your case a 10,000).

On the question of finding old posts and archived posts there are a few helpful thoughts. The search box at the upper right of the screen actually works pretty well. At the bottom of the page is a way to set up tags for each thread. This one has already been tagged, 10k, naniwa chosera, stepping up.

Another is where a lot of posts are linked in the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs. This is found in the Sub-Forums section near the top of the Neanderthal Haven page. Click on the Neanderthal Haven Announcements and you will see a list with Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs about the third one down. It can move around a bit if there is a new post in one of the threads.

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

Interesting info,David. Do you have any idea of how many thousands make a razor grind "think" or "thin" ?

[David Weaver]

Mel, I'm not sure I understand the question.

[John Haworth]

Hi All, Just reporting back on the 1k 10k option. The 1K arrived in the post yesterday and cuts like a dream its hard, fast and has done a great job of removing small chips out the blades of a few of the knifes and chisels. The step up to the 10 is slow but manageable and the results are very good. Taking good note of Davids advice I focused on building up a consistent scratch patten and refining the blade rather than on polish. Patience is a necessary virtue for this step up but I can vouch for the results. Most of all I would say to any first time buyers start low and build upwards and not do what I did which is to splash out for a 10k as a first hone (the problem of assuming that your tools are sharp enough to avoid a low stone could be a costly one)

I will probably invest in a mid stone when I'm using my equipment on a more regular basis. Although I'm not sure about the prospect of a mid range chosera the reviews of the 5k are not as good as the 1&10

For obvious reasons the results vary depending on the steel I'm honing - but that's just an excuse to buy more tools - Right!

[Chris Griggs]

You might have already mentioned it, and maybe I just missed it, but are you working a full bevel? As Robert mentioned making those big jumps efficiently really does rely on minimizing the amount of steel you are working by either maintaining a hollow grind or by raising the bevel a bit when you move to the 10k to polish a true (tiny) micro bevel.

Either way, adding a mid grit stone at some point is not a bad idea. If you go with another Cho get the 3k....its a great mid grit stone.

[John Haworth]

You might have already mentioned it, and maybe I just missed it, but are you working a full bevel? As Robert mentioned making those big jumps efficiently really does rely on minimizing the amount of steel you are working by either maintaining a hollow grind or by raising the bevel a bit when you move to the 10k to polish a true (tiny) micro bevel.

Either way, adding a mid grit stone at some point is not a bad idea. If you go with another Cho get the 3k....its a great mid grit stone.

At the moment I'm raising the bevel although As I'm progressing (from razors in to tools and through to kitchen knifes) I'm finding that each is requiring more work. The 3k might be a necessity soon but I'll be hiding the delivery in the post from my girlfriend as this will make my 3rd stone in as many weeks. Also I'm using the cheaper items first to practice and working my way in to my more expensive blades and tools. Its good practice but it does mean you learn to do somethings the hard way and find it a lot easier when you move on to better quality steel still its better than damaging the blade on a pricey blade and regretting it.

[Matthew N. Masail]

At the moment I'm raising the bevel although As I'm progressing (from razors in to tools and through to kitchen knifes) I'm finding that each is requiring more work. The 3k might be a necessity soon but I'll be hiding the delivery in the post from my girlfriend as this will make my 3rd stone in as many weeks. Also I'm using the cheaper items first to practice and working my way in to my more expensive blades and tools. Its good practice but it does mean you learn to do somethings the hard way and find it a lot easier when you move on to better quality steel still its better than damaging the blade on a pricey blade and regretting it.

As long as you keep the back of a chisel\plane blade flat, there is very little you can do to damage it. worst case you regrind the primary bevel and lose 0.2mm -0.0 mm in length.


As your finding and as I mentioned before, I a 3-4k stone before a 10K is very useful. my new setup will be very close to yours. 800chosera -> 3000chosera -> 10000gukomyo and I will be posting about it. regardless thu if you like the Chosera stones I doubt you can go wrong with the 3K.