Question for Altendorf F-45 users

[Keith Weber]

A few days ago, I managed to haul my new (to me) Altendorf F-45 Standard two hours on a trailer into my shop. It's a 2001 model, but it only has about 25 hours of use on it, since the previous (also original) owner closed his business and put it into storage. I've spent the last couple of days cleaning all the grunge off of everything from sitting in storage for so long. It looks like a brand new machine once it's cleaned up. I can't believe how heavy and beefy that saw and all the accessories are!

The previous owner said that it was hooked up to 480V, but Stiles Machinery said that it was shipped as a 220V machine (that's also what it says on the data plate.) So, either the P.O. either had it rewired for 460V (230V/460V motors), or he was mistaken about the shop voltage. That's something I've still got to investigate further to see what's really going on. I don't want to plug it in and fry anything before I figure out what it's wired for. That's proving to be tricky since the manual sucks for electrical information, and I can't find a wiring diagram for the ATB 112M/21-11 motor online.

Anyway, my latest concern is a paragraph in the manual that reads:

"Only connect the machine to a 3-phase AC current mains with the phases L1, L2, L3, otherwise the brake module can be destroyed. When operating the phase converters, frequency changers or transformer-capacitor combinations the brake module and ballast will be destroyed!"

The way I read that, it sounds like you can't use phase converters. I have a 20hp American Rotary Phase converter in my shop and was planning on running the Altendorf with it. I'm not an expert on 3-phase generation, but I'm trying to think what the difference would be between 3-phase mains and RPC power. The mains would have the 3 phases 120-degrees apart, and I think that the 2 main voltages in an RPC would be 180-degrees apart, so would that be what would destroy a motor brake? The voltages on my RPC are supposed to be within 5%, if that makes a difference.

Is anybody that's running an F-45 with motor braking using a RPC? I'll eventually give Stiles a call again, but I wanted to see if I could get some practical information before I talk to them in case the paragraph in the manual was more of a legal liability disclaimer than anything else. Getting 3-phase mains to my shop from the power company is not an option.

Thanks for any input/suggestions!

Keith

[David Kumm]

You can check with Stiles but generally you just don't want to use the manufactured leg for any of the switch or control connections or for the motor brake. RPC run on 240 volt delta configurations which mean that two legs are 120v measured to ground and the third is at least 208. With rpcs it can be even higher until the motor fires up and balanced the legs out. 208 wye has all three legs measuring 120 to ground but if your motor is 220-240 you can run it on the RPC. Just check where the control leg goes, usually L2 or L3. Dave

[Rick Fisher]

I know that motors with Electromagnetic brakes cant usually be run from a VFD .. The motor brake re-generates electricity and dumps it back to the power supply. Never heard of the brake being damaged. I want to hear the outcome of this ..

For whats it worth, I run a Jointer with an electromagnetic brake off a PP-20hp .. no problems.. That jointer is how I learned about the VFD problem.

[Rod Sheridan]

Keith, the issue is with converters that don't provide a true balanced 3 phase output voltage.

Regards, Rod.

[Keith Weber]

Thanks for the replies. I have since determined that the saw was indeed rewired for 440V. Removing the panel by the main power switches revealed a red "plug" as Altendorf calls it. They use a red one for 440V and a grey one for 220V. It is essentially a plug that changes the wiring by switching the plug, rather than rewiring a bunch of terminals. Much in the same way that a reversing tumbler changes the wiring to provide motor reversing on a 3-phase motor. Quite clever, actually. I'm used to the old school way of switching wires around to rewire to a different voltage. I'm hoping that this will be a one-stop switch of a plug, and that I won't have to change anything on the motors, as this would be handled by the grey plug. I'll have to check this with Stiles Machinery when I call them when I'm back at the shop in a couple of days. There was a piece of paper in the wiring area that mentioned something about setting the motor relais (their spelling, not mine) to match the amperage for the new voltage. A quick look through the parts manual didn't mention any relays, so I'll have to figure that one out yet. On older machines, I've replaced the heaters on the contactor to match the FLA of the motor. I'm not sure yet how Altendorf/ATB handle the current protection issue.

Keith

[Keith Weber]

Just to post an outcome to my wiring challenge... Stiles Machinery turned out to be really helpful in working with me regarding my saw's electrics. They were able to send me some service bulletins that I didn't have that explained everything that I wanted to do that was missing in my manual. Here's a pic of the electrics:

289626

The red plug in the upper left corner of the pic pulls out, and a grey one (ordered from Stiles) gets put in its place. The plug takes care of all the 440V to 220V wiring in the saw. The only issue that I had was that my input voltage was 243V instead of 220V, so the concern was over-volting the low voltage controls (18/24/35V). The transformer had input terminals for 460V/400V/220V/-20V/0V/+20V. I pulled the Control System fuses and moved the active (with the grey plug) transformer input leads to 220V and +20V. That dropped my transformer output voltages from "too high" to "just right". I put the fuses back in, powered up the saw, and everything works great. Thanks to everyone that replied for their input!

Keith

Now to try to squeeze a huge, Altendorf F-45 into a small, 11'-7" x 49' (560 sq. ft) shop. Where there's a will, there's a way!

[Kevin Jenness]

Keith,

I would like to hear how you do the squeezing. Seems like in normal configuration your saw is at least 10' wide with the crosscut table in place It would appear you have to give up on crosscutting a 4x8 sheet or cut the rip capacity down from the stock setup. Maybe a bumpout in the building envelope is in order. Or maybe you don't need to process sheet goods, in which case ignore the above.)

[Keith Weber]

Kevin,

Actually, the saw is 11'-8" wide right now. You're right, I'll have to give somewhere, but it will be on the rip side. A little fabrication work will be in order, but my Bridgeport and TIG welder will make short work of that. I'll save all the details for a "post-squeezing post" on SMC, but I've got it all worked out that functionality loss will be minimal. The only losses that I can think of are that I won't be able to produce two 4'x4' sheets out of the same 4x8 sheet, and when cross-cutting boards longer than 96", I'll be limited to a board width of about 24" (through a 64" double door in the side of my shop.) Where there's a will, there's a way.

Keith

[Peter Quinn]

Just to post an outcome to my wiring challenge... Stiles Machinery turned out to be really helpful in working with me regarding my saw's electrics. They were able to send me some service bulletins that I didn't have that explained everything that I wanted to do that was missing in my manual. Here's a pic of the electrics:

289626

The red plug in the upper left corner of the pic pulls out, and a grey one (ordered from Stiles) gets put in its place. The plug takes care of all the 440V to 220V wiring in the saw. The only issue that I had was that my input voltage was 243V instead of 220V, so the concern was over-volting the low voltage controls (18/24/35V). The transformer had input terminals for 460V/400V/220V/-20V/0V/+20V. I pulled the Control System fuses and moved the active (with the grey plug) transformer input leads to 220V and +20V. That dropped my transformer output voltages from "too high" to "just right". I put the fuses back in, powered up the saw, and everything works great. Thanks to everyone that replied for their input!

Keith

Now to try to squeeze a huge, Altendorf F-45 into a small, 11'-7" x 49' (560 sq. ft) shop. Where there's a will, there's a way!


Your space is less than 12' wide? Ouch Thats going to limit your cross cut capacity no? If its too much of a problem I'll be happy to pick it up.....I'm using one at work presently and have grown guide fond of it! Enjoy that. Glad to hear you got it wired.

[Keith Weber]

Peter,

It'll all make sense once everyone sees the final outcome. I'm going to spare trying to explain it all right now (I'll make a post when it's all finished), but my only limitation as to what I'll be able to build will be that I won't be able to cut the ends of a table that's greater than 24" wide IF that table is over 8 feet long. As I don't see myself building conference room tables anytime soon, it's not going to be an issue. 24" or under, and I can go out a set of double doors in the side of the shop. I'll also have a miter station set up for, say, crosscutting a 16-foot board in half. While I appreciate you offering to pick it up, I'm afraid you'd have to pry my cold, dead fingers from it before you could do that! :-)

Keith

[Kevin Jenness]

Well, that does make sense as your bumpout is built-in. If you can do a 4' crosscut at less than 8' and keep your rip capacity above 32" all should be well. The first 36" x 98" table will probably lead to a new doorway in the side of the shop. Sail on.

[albert sawicki]

Hi Keith. I have the same machine. It is workhorse. Just have a request to you. Can you make a connectors photo for me. I mean about red plug you have. I need it to hook up 440v . If you would help me wit unscrewing 4 screws and takin a photo from inside of red plug