Tenon Saw rehab-newbie sharpening question

[Dale Coons]

I've cleaned up a tenon saw from the bay, and decided to try and sharpen it up. Watched a few videos, jointed the teeth and sharpened it up. Here's my dilemma--it seems to be quite sharp now, and cuts and tracks well in maple. But--it seems still a bit difficult to push, and the blade gets quite hot. I'm thinking I need a little set on the teeth, which I did not do yet, since I've seen so many posts here indicating that most saws have too much set.

Didn't know if I should try something else first--I did put a little T9 on it for lube and rust protection, but didn't seem to help a lot.

I have a Stanley saw set which seems to be in good working order. The saw is a 14" Disston, 12 ppi. Any thoughts?

Thanks--
Dale.

[Andrew Fleck]

Your saw is binding in the kerf due to no set at all. You should definitely put some set on it, but I will let others recommend exactly how much. I am by no means an expert, but I do know that your saw does require some set.

[Jim Koepke]

Dale,

Do you have a way to measure the thickness of the saw plate and then the edges at the teeth?

One thing to remember when setting the teeth, it is easier to add more set if needed than it is to remove too much set.

jtk

[Dale Coons]

I do have a set of digital calipers that I could measure with. I have a 42x saw set--but no idea what a good setting to start with is. There's a lock screw on the front of the body to hold the anvil in place, and an adjuster screw that moves the anvil up and down. There are lines on the side of the anvil which I assume are a scale of some kind. I've looked around but the 'user manual' that came with the set doesn't seem to have much useful info in it.

Is there a rule of thumb for how much set to put on a saw?

d

[Andrew Fleck]

Here is a link that should help you out with the 42X. http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/sawjig/setting.html

I would start really small and test cut until the saw is cutting the way you want it to. There are a lot of variables when it comes to set....Type of lumber, type of saw, how it's filed, taper ground or not, etc..

[David Weaver]

There's no rule of thumb that I know. I also use a 42x, and I set a saw more or less by feel/sight with it (as in, I don't know where the indicator is for each particular saw). Just try some on the low side (don't set the teeth too much) and use the saw and see how the set is. If it's not quite enough, move the indicator a little bit and do it again.

[Jim Koepke]

here are lines on the side of the anvil which I assume are a scale of some kind. I've looked around but the 'user manual' that came with the set doesn't seem to have much useful info in it.

My understanding is the lines are there so the user can set it to the same amount of set the next time they work on a saw. They are just reference marks.

With a caliper measure the saw plate near the teeth. Then measure the set at the tip of the teeth. The purpose is to determine how much set there is on your saw.

For a tenon saw in dry hardwood somewhere around 5 thousandths difference between the tips of the teeth and the saw plate should be fine. Too much set can also cause the saw to be hard to use but then it wouldn't be likely to get hot in use.

If you work wet softwoods then you may need a little more set.

A taper ground blade in wet softwood can cause some big fits. Especially if you start with short strokes near the tip of the saw. Your kerf can close up on you and then when you get to the heavier gauge plate at the heel of the saw it will freeze in the cut.

jtk

[Dale Coons]

A usage question occurs to me as I sit here--is the body of the 42x supposed to sit on the tooth line? How do you know the saw is in the set 'all the way' so you get a consistent depth?

Thanks for the tips--I wish I could run out to the garage and try this out. Unfortunately I'm at work earning money for my habit instead of at home playing :D.

[Jim Koepke]

A usage question occurs to me as I sit here--is the body of the 42x supposed to sit on the tooth line? How do you know the saw is in the set 'all the way' so you get a consistent depth?

Thanks for the tips--I wish I could run out to the garage and try this out. Unfortunately I'm at work earning money for my habit instead of at home playing :D.

The inside top of the 42x, like most saw sets, rests on the tooth line as you are "pulling the trigger."

jtk

[Mike Allen1010]

[QUOTE=Jim Koepke;2265526]Dale,

Do you have a way to measure the thickness of the saw plate and then the edges at the teeth?

Dale, your dial caliper is the ticket to quantifying and getting the amount of set you want. You'll know if you need more set if given the proper sawing geometry, it's still harder to push than it should be particularly in thick stock. If it feels like the plate is dragging, even after applying wax/lubricant to the plate then likely do need more set.

A general rule of thumb that works for me with back joinery saws is whatever your plate thickness is add 15% set for domestic hardwoods and 20% if you want to use the saws in damper, softwoods. For a 14 inch, 12 PPI back saw, a total of .006" set (.003" per side) is a good minimum target to shoot for.

With your 42X adjust the anvil all the way up (zero set), and then gradually use the threaded adjuster to lower the anvil (increasing the amount of set) until you achieve your target. Set the first 6-8 teeth nearest the heel to test these settings to see that you're getting the amount set you want.

Remember as a final step to remove any burrs on the outside of the teeth you just want light pressure with a maroon Scotch brite pad or 400 grit sandpaper. Anymore and you'lll be removing some of the set right at the apex of the cutting edges of the teeth, especially on a crosscut saw.

Regards, Mike

[Tom M King]

Anyone else reading this and thinking about doing it, Go straight to a 42X, do not stop at any of the others, even if you have to pay the 90 bucks for it. I will bet dollars to doughnuts that the majority of us here have spent more than that buying others that we got "deals" on, until we finally found one. one way or the other.

[Kim Malmberg]

With due respect to everyone in this thread I would want to warn against complicating matters. I think we can all agree that adding little set is better than too much. But to measure plate thickness and comparing it to actual and proportion set seems far too complicated to me.

Like others have said, the markings on the sets are rather irrelevant. I use a MF 217 and two Somax saw sets (which I think are far better than the pistol grip sets). They all have differing anvils and plungers with varying settings. All I care about is first setting my saw set rather fine and then trying it out on one of the last teeth on the saw. You don't even have to test set the tooth. You can lightly press the set and see how much the tooth bends and then do necessary adjustments. Most of the time all you need is a slight movement in the tooth.

Then just start working, keeping the pressure steady and making sure you set from the tip of the teeth, not the base.

[Jim Koepke]

Anyone else reading this and thinking about doing it, Go straight to a 42X, do not stop at any of the others, even if you have to pay the 90 bucks for it. I will bet dollars to doughnuts that the majority of us here have spent more than that buying others that we got "deals" on, until we finally found one. one way or the other.

Patience and open eyes will find you a 42x for a lot less then $90.

There also seems to be a few currently made models that some like.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

With due respect to everyone in this thread I would want to warn against complicating matters.

Part of solving a problem is eliminating various causes. If the saw is overly set it would also be difficult to push in a cut.

Having empirical data is a good starting point in any trouble shooting endeavor.

After measuring if there is any difference Dale might lightly pinch the tooth line while slowly moving his fingers from heel to toe. After doing this a few times a person can detect more than just set problems without a caliper.

So, if he has it he may as well use it.

jtk

[Kim Malmberg]

Jim,
My point was just to keep things very simple. I still remember when I started fettling with saws. I read all I could find and everybody seemed to have their own way of solving problems. I got confused and scared. It seems to me that Dale is just starting out and therefore I felt that the easier advice, the better for him.

That said, you're absolutely right in that there is nothing wrong with empirical data or applying a scientific approach to solve a problem. My only point is that aspiring saw fettler's might do well if they stick to the basics - just because too much data without deeper knowledge can be overwhelming.

What Dale describes does seem to be a question of too small a set. Dale didn't mention having set the saw, and if it was jointed and sharpened without additional setting of the teeth, this would very well explain why it binds in soft wood and works fine in seasoned hardwood.

My second notion is that although I agree that a saw set too widely would be heavy to push, it would not bind, especially not in soft wood and also not considering the small teeth of his tenon saw. It would probably be difficult to control and it would stall, but as Dale states his plate get's hot, which in my mind is a sure sign of a binding saw.

Maybe Dale likes his data and a scientific approach. If so, please don't listen to me. I work mostly by feel. But if you are my type, my first advice would be to try the saw on several pieces of somewhat identical soft wood. If the board is cupped, this might cause the saw to bind, so having several scraps to test cut with, would verify if the set is too small.

And if the set is indeed too small, all you need is a slight adjustment of the set.

[Dale Coons]

I appreciate all the comments, including some sent privately. I did not set the saw initially because of the many threads here mentioned that many saws already have too much set. And though I have no fear of doing it, there are obviously many opinions on how to and how much. I figure no matter what I do, if it turns out to be a problem I can give it another go, after all, it's just a saw! Mostly I was looking for a place to start.

Interestingly, as I think about sharpening saws, some say joint-set-sharpen, others joint-sharpen-set. Setting first seems counterintuitive to me, as it seems (perhaps incorrectly) that filing afterward will change the shape of the tooth and therefore the set as well--I think in effect it would reduce the set (again, maybe wrong, or maybe reducing the set is a good thing). But I know some do it this way quite successfully. Setting afterward seems more direct, but there also seems to be more potential to bugger up the teeth you just sharpened. On the other hand, either method should work once the 'proper' amount of set for the approach is determined.

As far as 'scientific' vs 'feel', I find I do both--usually I'm a little more 'scientific' at first, as I just want to get in the ballpark so I have something that works well generally. It may not be perfect, but I'll usually figure that out by 'feel'. So right now, I suppose I'm sharpening with 'training wheels'--sort of like learning to sharpen a plane or chisels--at first 100 percent jig, now it's a mix--I figure I need a touch-up and who wants to haul all that junk out, so I try something freehand and find I can do it pretty well. Gradually I just switch over.

So far, I'm just shocked the teeth on the saw are sharp and more or less the same size :eek::D, sorta like getting the first gossamer shavings from your granddad's old beat up plane.

It's all helpful!

d