How is Grizzly overall as a brand? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Michael Yadfar

05-09-2014, 3:17 PM

From what I've read and learned so far about Grizzly, I kind of see it as the Toyota of power tools. It will get me to where I have to go, be affordable, and have some decent quality, but not Mercedes-Benz quality. So far I've bought a Jet 6" jointer used and a new Ridgid table saw which I got for 25% off, and I've been satisfied with them.

The only other tools I'm looking for at this time are a bandsaw and planer. Most all the other tools I need except a router and lathe I already have. I kind of got bored and impatient on the used market, and right now I'm highly looking into the Grizzly GO453z Spiral Head planer, and while I'm making the 3 hour trip to their Muncy showroom, I'll probably pick up a GO555 14" Bandsaw. Even while I'm there, I may consider buying a Lathe too, but that's doubtful.

Pretty much I have the money for the stuff, there's no question or issue about that. I'm simply looking for opinions from the woodworkers on Sawmill Creek on Grizzly as a brand before I go out and buy.

Some info about me if that factors into the situation, because people always ask, I'm a young worker with four years of experience in a shop with some of the best tools out there and learned from one of the best in the trade. I'm currently putting together a shop of my own for hobby purposes, so my tools wouldn't see heavy use. Right now it's a shed shop, but I've done heavy research on outside tool maintenance and preservation, and I live in a relatively mild climate. I will build stuff like furniture, and from my prior experience, I always start out with rough sawn hardwood, so my jointer, planer, and band saw will see heavy use. My jointer limits me to 6", so I think the 6" resaw capacity of the 14" bandsaw will be sufficient.

David Weaver

05-09-2014, 3:27 PM

Frank Martin

05-09-2014, 3:40 PM

Michael Yadfar

05-09-2014, 3:45 PM

Kia or Tata might be more fitting than toyota.

Minimax might be more fitting for toyota.

For all of the asian machines, you pays your money, you takes your chances. You'll get a decent machine that will do what it says it does, but you'll never get confused and think you have minimax.

I think Minimax is a bit of an unfair comparison for a hobby shop... Minimax is commercial woodworking machinery. I hate how there aren't any USA brands on the hobbiest level anymore. Even the cheap brands like craftsman used to be USA made, all my hand tools and even my Craftsman power drill from the early 90s is USA made. The tools I've worked around before were mostly Delta Rockwell, and these came from Pittsburgh I believe, and while some of these are commercial, even the 6" jointer was made in the steel city. Unfortunately a lot of these tools are hard to find and restoration is simply something I'm not into

Bill White

05-09-2014, 3:46 PM

As an owner of Grizz machines, I will offer that my experiences have been more than might be expected.
My wood lathe and accessories, 0555LX band saw, 0444Z table saw have met all expectations without a flaw.
I will not hesitate to add to my shop needs with Grizzly tooling.
Customer service and parts needed are a big plus for me. Price/value relationship is exceptional.
I have no ego involved. Just want my equipment to work every time-all the time.
Flame if ya want, but I'm a happy Grizzly owner.
Bill

Michael Yadfar

05-09-2014, 3:51 PM

In my opinion and experience generally speaking European machinery is heads and shoulders above the current breed of Asian. Specifically about most Asian machines, Powermatic and Jet are generally better than Grizzly and lower than that you start getting into HF quality. Basically you are indeed getting what you are paying for in most cases.

I don't know about Powermatic, but I've heard that Jet tools are made in Taiwan just like Grizzly.

Which actually pardon me on that comment, Grizzly has both China and Taiwan factories. Taiwan is right off of china so I don't know what the quality difference is. I don't know if it's true, but I've been told before that a lot of these tools, like Jet for example, are the same Asian productions, just under another brand name. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate buying outside the US, but my only alternative is to by used which isn't gonna work

Frank Martin

05-09-2014, 4:19 PM

I don't know about Powermatic, but I've heard that Jet tools are made in Taiwan just like Grizzly.

Which actually pardon me on that comment, Grizzly has both China and Taiwan factories. Taiwan is right off of china so I don't know what the quality difference is. I don't know if it's true, but I've been told before that a lot of these tools, like Jet for example, are the same Asian productions, just under another brand name. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate buying outside the US, but my only alternative is to by used which isn't gonna work

I actually said both Powermatic and Jet are made in Asia. My perception however is that they are generally better machines than Grizzly with a bit better quality control and finish. One must also remember Sawstop is also made in Asia but to a much higher quality level than most others. So, this is not only about the place of manufacturing there are other factors involved such as quality of machining, level of quality control and tolerances, etc, which is then generally reflected in the price of the machine. Without a middleman Grizzly is able to pass on better value than some other Asian brands. However, in my experience expecting high level of quality as seen in Minimax, Sawstop, etc, is simply not reasonable. Again, it is clearly acceptable to many as they seem to sell a lot of machines.... Just like how Walmart is the largest retailer...

Cary Falk

05-09-2014, 4:20 PM

I have or had tools form Jet, Powermatic, Steel City, Delta, Grizzly, and Shop Fox.Every tool needs to be taken on a case by case basis. I would never outfit my shop with a single brand. That being said, the majority of my shop is Grizzly(G1023RL, G0513X2, G0453Z, G1026, G0441, and G0458, G1071, and W1741). What is not Grizzly is some older equipment like a DeWalt GWI RAS, Powermatic 1200 VS Drill press,and a Delta 40-440 scroll saw which I restored because I didn't like what was out there new. I do have a Jet oscillating edge sander because at the time it was the cheapest edge sander that oscillated and a 1642 lathe because I thought it was best in class. I am happy with my current heard. Grizzly has been good to me and and have had less issues and better fit and finish then the rest of the brands. That may not be eitirely ture. I had had 0 issues with Steel City. I think PM and Jet are way overpriced for what you get. Grizzly hits that sweet spot of price and performance.

Michael Yadfar

05-09-2014, 4:40 PM

I actually said both Powermatic and Jet are made in Asia. My perception however is that they are generally better machines than Grizzly with a bit better quality control and finish. One must also remember Sawstop is also made in Asia but to a much higher quality level than most others. So, this is not only about the place of manufacturing there are other factors involved such as quality of machining, level of quality control and tolerances, etc, which is then generally reflected in the price of the machine. Without a middleman Grizzly is able to pass on better value than some other Asian brands. However, in my experience expecting high level of quality as seen in Minimax, Sawstop, etc, is simply not reasonable. Again, it is clearly acceptable to many as they seem to sell a lot of machines.... Just like how Walmart is the largest retailer...

I thought you were referring to Powermatic and Grizzly as European brands. You actually did answer my question well, I was asking more about quality than county of origin. I will definitely look into the other brands and base it off of my budget. This is why I like other opinions, I'm sure you guys have worked with many different machines and know the quality difference. Like I said, I've worked with high quality machinery, I haven't played with any of the new asian brands. I will definitely see a quality drop off... The planer I've previously worked with was a Casadei R510 (Italian made), that thing was a tank and probably was about $15,000 new. Any 15" Asian planer is gonna be a drop off, but hopefully I pick the best of the drop offs

Duane Meadows

05-09-2014, 4:43 PM

I agree with Cary completely. I own several Grizzly machines. All have performed well. Many for 15 - 18 years. I also own 1 Jet machine(planer). It seems maybe a bit better fit/finish. But no better performance. Since I bought it some 18 years ago(was comparably priced to Griz back then), their prices have gotten out of hand and out of my price range. Comparing Griz to Euro machine at 4+ times the price.. I would hope there would be some difference, but for my mostly hobby shop, not worth the difference. But then the Neanders do quality work with hand tools. Still think in most non production cases, technique and skill far out weigh any(perceived or even real) shortcomings of most machines. Yes, there is some real junk out there, and it is wise to do your research.

All that said... Grizzly, Jet, Delta(most), PC, Craftsman(again most), Dewalt, Shopfox... have performed well for me. YMMV

Larry Edgerton

05-09-2014, 4:50 PM

Kia or Tata might be more fitting than toyota.
.

Took the words right out of my mouth, and thats because Yugo is gone.

I recently had the unpleasant experience of working in a shop full of Grizzly tools. I can not say what I honestly think or my post will be deleted, but suffice to say, I was glad to get back to my own shop filled with Toyota's.

Larry

Michael Yadfar

05-09-2014, 5:00 PM

David Kumm

05-09-2014, 5:48 PM

What would you consider the "Toyota" brand of hobbiest tools? Jet? I'm only asking because that's what I assume here, because the reference to minimax wasn't really applicable since I'm not looking into commercial purposes

And just out of curiosity, what would you consider the Mercedes Benz brand? I consider the old Delta-Rockwell and all that to be the "Muscle Cars" of tools so you can't count them

Minimax and Felder 700 and down should be considered high end hobby machines. that is how they are targeted to a large extent. Maybe like the C series Mercedes or Audi A4 but not strictly commercial. SCMI, Format, and finally Martin are another step up and there are levels within that group. Felder 900 and SCMI Nova , then Format and SCMI Class, and finally Martin and maybe L'Invincible. They are the equivalents of the mid to large size Mercedes, AudI. BMW. Keep in mind that the Mercedes comparable covers a wide quality range too. Dave

Michael Yadfar

05-09-2014, 5:57 PM

Michael Yadfar

05-09-2014, 6:01 PM

Sort of a new question I have is more in reference to "value" as some bring up. I'm definitely sure that Jet has some degree of higher quality than Grizzly, but we are talking about a $2,000 planer vs a $3,000 planer, both from Asia. What I want to know is what brand in my realm of affordability would be the best "value". And by my realm of affordability, I mean around the Kia/Toyota range

Peter Quinn

05-09-2014, 6:08 PM

Took the words right out of my mouth, and thats because Yugo is gone.

I recently had the unpleasant experience of working in a shop full of Grizzly tools. I can not say what I honestly think or my post will be deleted, but suffice to say, I was glad to get back to my own shop filled with Toyota's.

Larry

ditto. Anybody says anything they really feel here against the bear and as an under writer they will shut you down, delete your posts, etc. it's a big green love fest up in here. So read this quick. Grizzly as a brand? It's a case by case basis, they sell a lot of machines, some quite good, some a decent value if not what I'd call best of breed, some are barely possible rubbish I wouldn't pick up for free from the side of the road. As a commercial user I do this for money, so my perspective may differ from a hobby user on the price/ quality/ expectations equation. I own a few and have used far more than that at shops where I've worked. I have never used a single grizzly machine that I haven't used a better version of the same basic tool by another manufacturer. They don't make the best anything IME, but you've seen the catalogue, the prices are great, and not every machine has to be the best to serve its purpose, not every user has the financing to buy the best, so there is a wide market for their goods, thus the popularity. For me it comes often down to set up time...because time is money in a commercial shop. Performance is a base line in custom wood working, the tool had to do its job in an accurate manner, but beyond that, how much time do I have to spend changing cutters, belts, bands, blades, setting fences, are adjustments easy, are controls in the right place? Ask your self these questions as you compare machines.

On the minimax thing, it's small shop commercial or serious hobby, some machines at the upper end are on the verge of industrial like scmi stuff, some may actually be the same, Eric Loza clearly is the one to ask there on a given machine. I love every piece of minimax equipment I've used or owned. Scmi too, good stuff. Not cheap, not Martin or altendorf, but definitely well above the average Asian import quality IMO.

On the casedie planer.....I used to used that planer too in a 24"' almost everything I can afford is a step or 5 down from that level. I saw one on close out once for $10k, desperately wanted to buy it, get a 20hp phase converter....bigger dust collector.....nah. Not for my home shop. It's like bringing a tank to a fishing derby.

Michael Yadfar

05-09-2014, 6:28 PM

ditto. Anybody says anything they really feel here against the bear and as an under writer they will shut you down, delete your posts, etc. it's a big green love fest up in here. So read this quick. Grizzly as a brand? It's a case by case basis, they sell a lot of machines, some quite good, some a decent value if not what I'd call best of breed, some are barely possible rubbish I wouldn't pick up for free from the side of the road. As a commercial user I do this for money, so my perspective may differ from a hobby user on the price/ quality/ expectations equation. I own a few and have used far more than that at shops where I've worked. I have never used a single grizzly machine that I haven't used a better version of the same basic tool by another manufacturer. They don't make the best anything IME, but you've seen the catalogue, the prices are great, and not every machine has to be the best to serve its purpose, not every user has the financing to buy the best, so there is a wide market for their goods, thus the popularity. For me it comes often down to set up time...because time is money in a commercial shop. Performance is a base line in custom wood working, the tool had to do its job in an accurate manner, but beyond that, how much time do I have to spend changing cutters, belts, bands, blades, setting fences, are adjustments easy, are controls in the right place? Ask your self these questions as you compare machines.

On the minimax thing, it's small shop commercial or serious hobby, some machines at the upper end are on the verge of industrial like scmi stuff, some may actually be the same, Eric Loza clearly is the one to ask there on a given machine. I love every piece of minimax equipment I've used or owned. Scmi too, good stuff. Not cheap, not Martin or altendorf, but definitely well above the average Asian import quality IMO.

On the casedie planer.....I used to used that planer too in a 24"' almost everything I can afford is a step or 5 down from that level. I saw one on close out once for $10k, desperately wanted to buy it, get a 20hp phase converter....bigger dust collector.....nah. Not for my home shop. It's like bringing a tank to a fishing derby.

Thank you. I saved this to my computer incase it gets deleted, but I thought you stated it well. You gave a realistic approach of comparing hobby level vs commercial, and gave me some stuff to think about. If I have unlimited time and limited budget, Grizzly may be the brand. But other way around, maybe I want to bump up. Very good stuff.

Back onto the Casedie, I absolutely loved that thing. The one we had was the only stationary machine in the shop not bolted down, and that was strictly because you didn't have to, the things heavy and bullet proof. Ours had built in hooks on top so you can carry by crane. When they moved it from the old shop to the new shop they built, I heard they moved it in by crane before they put the roof on. Ours even had a built in sharpener on top which I don't even see when I google these machines. Only issue is parts. There was one minor part we had to find, and the only one we found was in Iran and there's a trade embargo. It was a cosmetic part so no issue though

Bryan Cramer

05-09-2014, 7:12 PM

Peter Kelly

05-09-2014, 7:17 PM

Keep in mind that new machines with the "Made in Taiwan" badge often come with Chinese-made motors and switches. Replacement can be expensive.

Chris Padilla

05-09-2014, 7:21 PM

Michael Yadfar

05-09-2014, 7:35 PM

jeff shanz

05-09-2014, 7:44 PM

Good point regarding the Byrd head. I know knife changes are easy on those Euro machines but a Byrd head eventually pays for itself.
Edit: you gotta keep buying knives on the Euro machines.

Harold Burrell

05-09-2014, 7:44 PM

My response will be simple...

Nearly every large machine I own is a Grizzly. They work well and I like them. Could I have found better machines? Certainly. I just couldn't afford them.

Michael Yadfar

05-09-2014, 7:57 PM

My first major ww'ing tool purchase when I got married and purchased my first house was a Grizzly 1023Z (10" table saw). It was the right price (under a grand I'm fairly certain...back in 2000) and today I cannot lodge a single complaint about except that I wish it would die so I can get a SawStop! hahahaha!! Since then I seriously considered purchasing some of their higher-end jointers and planers but I could not handle the space of two separate machines like that so I went looking combo and plunked down nice change (I now have "nice change") for a MM J/P combo machine. This was probably 7-8 years ago (no combo J/P at Grizzly then) and I picked up a used MM20 bandsaw during that time as well. I still have zero complaints about any of these machines and they've all served my weekend wood whacking cravings just fine. Grizzly, for the hobbyist, is still the best bang for the buck IMO.

I worked with a sawstop before too, I think we had the highest end table saw they made. Definitely a high quality tool and very safe. The first day I worked with my Ridgid contractor saw I almost cut my finger off. I cut a full sheet of 3/4" plywood myself without any feed tables, and I would never try that again. I still gotta figure out feed tables for that still. I bought that table saw because I got a really good price and it stores well. It's not really designed for woodworking, but it works.

Jon McElwain

05-09-2014, 7:57 PM

I've owned a 14" bandsaw, 15" stationary planer, 10" tablesaw, a little 1/3 hp bench top drill press - all by Grizzly. I had bearing problems with the bandsaw, planer, and tablesaw. As in, I had to replace the bearings in each of these machines. My only other complaint about the bandsaw was the blade length was a little bit of an odd size and they seemed to use some weird bolt sizes. The drill press had some runnout, but it was a little cheap machine and it is probably not fair to draw many conclusions based on a bench top unit. My overall impression with these machines is that they a decent enough machines, but they do use some lower end parts like bearings and motors.

A few years ago, I had a bunch of flood damage and I took the opportunity to "upgrade." I got a PM2000 that has an overall better fit and finish than the 10" tablesaw I had. I have run more material through the Powermatic than the Grizzly, and I have had no problems. I got a Laguna 14" SUV bandsaw (non-Italian), and again, a little better fit and finish, and some higher end parts (leeson motor for example). I have been more satisfied with the Laguna for sure, but it is still an asian machine and I have had some serious disappointments with the machine. The bandsaw disappointments were mostly discovered during setup, and I have most of the kinks worked out now. Any more I am pretty happy with the saw. I got a Laguna 16" planer to upgrade from the Grizzly - my comments here would be similar to the bandsaw comments.

The Grizzly machines were all 1995 to 2000 era machines and the new machines were purchased in 1999 or 2000. Again, I think Grizzly makes some decent machines, but you may need to replace some parts here and there, and there may be some peculiarities to them. The Powermatic tablesaw has been a solid performer - I can see wanting something a little fancier/bigger for a commercial shop, but it is pretty nice for my strictly hobby shop. If I had it to do again, I would have steered clear of the Laguna machines - I bought them before I was on Sawmill Creek regularly. I think I would have gone Minimax or possibly sprung for an Italian saw for the bandsaw, and probably a Powermatic or something else for the planer. Grizzly seems to be making better and better machines though - I might have to take another look at them as the price is right.

Cary Falk

05-09-2014, 8:04 PM

I'm definitely sure that Jet has some degree of higher quality than Grizzly, but we are talking about a $2,000 planer vs a $3,000 planer, both from Asia.

No way is Grizzly a lesser tool than Jet. From the tools I had Jet, Delta, Steel City, Grizzly, and Rikon are all on the same level and is what I would call consumer grade. Grizzly quality has gone up in the last decade. I do think it is unfare the thread is comparing them to tools that cost 2-3x the costs like mini-max and other Euro.

As far as the cars go Toyota's quality, resale value, and reliability is way above the big three. I put BMW on par with Jet. You get very little for what you pay for. We had one for about 6 months. I only drive Toyota's. My wife drives an Audi. It's ok but I don't see the appeal. I liked the Infinity we had better.:D

Peter Quinn

05-09-2014, 8:09 PM

Remember the picture floating around the web showing Gee Tech's (I believe) new planer manufacuring facility in Tiwan and a Powermatic and a Grizzly planer were coming off the same line. When I buy Asian made tools it's mostly Grizzly. If i want a better tool I would choose a Eropean brand. Grizzly has improved in quality over the years. Hobbiest wise you can't go wrong with Grizzly. (Side thought: what about selling your 6" jointer and then purchasing a Grizzly 12" combination jointer planer. My 6" is too narrow for most rough lumber. )

I've recently been using a general 20" planer and a powermatic 20" planer almost side by side, one has a spiral head but otherwise that same basic Taiwan small shop four poster model. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the powermatic has a real motor in it while the general has.....I don't know, two geriatric gerbils on a rusty wheel? There are a lot of similarities between these two machines, but when you put rubber to road, or wood to knives, the powermatic chews up stock, the general struggles to take a full width pass at any depth. Something is clearly different. The general has a great spiral head, but just has no power.

I remember reading an OLD fine wood working where they took apart one of the original grizzly four post 15" imports and a delta dc-380 iir for comparison? Came down to the delta had a serous set of springs in the chip breaker, the griz had two springs from a ball point pen. Or almost that bad. That was a long time ago, you have to start some where, no doubt the situation has improved, but it's still my firm belief that not everything is the same in those machines just because they have the same silhouette. I'd love to see an engineering tear down to see just what's under each hood in each brand. Castings may all be the same, but springs? Gears? Rubber in the wheels? Bearings? Head machining? Bolt grade? These things are hard to compare for a consumer but their spec can swing the price and performance of a machine considerably. Oh...and motor! You can buy a $120 3hp tefc motor or a $1200 3hp tefc motor.

I once worked in a mattress factory that made mattresses for all three large major brands, on the same production line, from largely the same parts, but there was considerably quality difference between models and brands to hit different price points. All looked the same going out the door in a bag. Don't judge a mattress by its cover, it's what's inside that counts....or is that about planers? Or books? Or people? All of the above?

glenn bradley

05-09-2014, 8:27 PM

You really need to look at other forums and ask the same question. Just as there is a large Festoolian love-fest here there is an anti Grizzly undercurrent too that I have never really understood. I have many colors in the shop and the Grizzly tools all work fine for me. Is it the car, or the driver? :D At any rate, fish a few other ponds with the same bait to get a balanced catch.

Larry Edgerton

05-09-2014, 8:30 PM

What would you consider the "Toyota" brand of hobbiest tools? Jet? I'm only asking because that's what I assume here, because the reference to minimax wasn't really applicable since I'm not looking into commercial purposes

And just out of curiosity, what would you consider the Mercedes Benz brand? I consider the old Delta-Rockwell and all that to be the "Muscle Cars" of tools so you can't count them

If you want a quality machine at an affordable price , used Euro is the way to go. Takes more effort, and a bit of homework but its better than some stuff that's green. Seriously, I do not consider any of the tools that I used last winter to be safe, especially the shapers.

Oh, Tata motors now owns Jaguar, so if you know anyone with a Jag make sure you mention that fact.

Larry

Bryan Cramer

05-09-2014, 8:38 PM

I've recently been using a general 20" planer and a powermatic 20" planer almost side by side, one has a spiral head but otherwise that same basic Taiwan small shop four poster model. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the powermatic has a real motor in it while the general has.....I don't know, two geriatric gerbils on a rusty wheel? There are a lot of similarities between these two machines, but when you put rubber to road, or wood to knives, the powermatic chews up stock, the general struggles to take a full width pass at any depth. Something is clearly different. The general has a great spiral head, but just has no power.

I remember reading an OLD fine wood working where they took apart one of the original grizzly four post 15" imports and a delta dc-380 iir for comparison? Came down to the delta had a serous set of springs in the chip breaker, the griz had two springs from a ball point pen. Or almost that bad. That was a long time ago, you have to start some where, no doubt the situation has improved, but it's still my firm belief that not everything is the same in those machines just because they have the same silhouette. I'd love to see an engineering tear down to see just what's under each hood in each brand. Castings may all be the same, but springs? Gears? Rubber in the wheels? Bearings? Head machining? Bolt grade? These things are hard to compare for a consumer but their spec can swing the price and performance of a machine considerably. Oh...and motor! You can buy a $120 3hp tefc motor or a $1200 3hp tefc motor.

I once worked in a mattress factory that made mattresses for all three large major brands, on the same production line, from largely the same parts, but there was considerably quality difference between models and brands to hit different price points. All looked the same going out the door in a bag. Don't judge a mattress by its cover, it's what's inside that counts....or is that about planers? Or books? Or people? All of the above?

That's so true. My point is most of the tools come from the same factory so they function the same but the differences come into play (like you said) when the company chooses parts (such as motors) to cut costs. A hobbiest might not ever run a machine at its capacity as a profesional would so the internal differences might not be issues.

Art Mann

05-09-2014, 9:01 PM

If you want a quality machine at an affordable price , used Euro is the way to go. Takes more effort, and a bit of homework but its better than some stuff that's green. Seriously, I do not consider any of the tools that I used last winter to be safe, especially the shapers.

Larry

I have stated this many times on these forums but it is worth repeating. For many people like myself, advice on buying used European equipment is useless. There simply is no such equipment available on a regular basis from any of the normal outlets within a 100 mile radius. There isn't any old US made equipment either. If I upgrade equipment, I am going to have to buy new or wait for years. I don't plan to spend the money to buy commercial/industrial or high end hobby equipment so what is my next best option? I don't own any Grizzly equipment but judging by what a majority of people on these forums say, they are a pretty good bet for many tools.

Michael Yadfar

05-09-2014, 9:25 PM

I have stated this many times on these forums but it is worth repeating. For many people like myself, advice on buying used European equipment is useless. There simply is no such equipment available on a regular basis from any of the normal outlets within a 100 mile radius. There isn't any old US made equipment either. If I upgrade equipment, I am going to have to buy new or wait for years. I don't plan to spend the money to buy commercial/industrial or high end hobby equipment so what is my next best option? I don't own any Grizzly equipment but judging by what a majority of people on these forums say, they are a pretty good bet for many tools.

Thats my issue. I really like the old USA tools, but I've been searching Craigslist at least once a day for a few months. Some stuff you can find like bandsaws, but planer? Forget it. Only a few planers go up that would even fit what most hobbiest and I would look for, and you obviously got so many people looking from many miles away, so these go quick. The machines you actually do find that still fit standards are either overpriced or in too much need of work. I'm sorry but I, not willing to buy a machine for $2,000 with 30 years of wear even if it does run. I'm also not willing to spend $400 for a rust bucket that doesn't work. I'm not dissing anyone here, I do respect the people who restore these things, but it's not me. I buy a machine to cut wood, not spend thousands of dollars and take a few years to find parts for

As far as Grizzly is concerned, what I'm learning is the value of it for me. I've suspected this before posting in this forum, but from what I understand all the Asian tool brands are basically the same product, different name and price. Maybe a few differences, but I would rather go with the lower priced. Obviously a good company like MiniMax will outperform the crap out of a Grizzly, but for me spending a few hours a day in my hobby shop, I feel like it wouldn't be worth spending thousands of more for the better machine. If I was small commercial or a serious hobbiest, hell yea I'd go with the top of the line machine. It all comes down to my purpose is what I'm really feeling here

Kevin Womer

05-09-2014, 10:42 PM

I guess I don't understand the lovefest around here either. I certainly hope posts aren't tinkered with as some have mentioned, it would undermine the legitimacy of this forum. That being said, I own or have owned Delta, Jet, Steel City, Ridgid, Dewalt, Sears, Sawstop and Grizzly. You get what you pay for. Grizzly is a decent machine for the money, not the best and not the worst either. It serves a person well if it's your hobby, if I did this as a professional, I would want a better brand, but like I said, that would also be more expensive. A consumer must weigh factors other than cost as well, shop room size, how often a machine would be used, customer service, replacement parts and so on. All things considered, Grizzly is dependable, middle of the road machinery with a great track record for customer service.

Charles Coolidge

05-10-2014, 1:21 AM

I actually said both Powermatic and Jet are made in Asia. My perception however is that they are generally better machines than Grizzly with a bit better quality control and finish.

They are not, I own both and for some machines Grizzly is superior at a much lower cost. Not every machine in every category but one example is the Grizzly G0696x 12" 5hp table saw, it is superior to the Powermatic PM2000 10" and cost less. I have both and know them both well. The 8" parallelogram jointer is another example where Grizzly and PM are about the exact same machine, same castings same factory both have CHINA motor. I called up PM and asked them if they could tell me what I would get for the much higher priced PM and they couldn't list a single feature.

Rick Fisher

05-10-2014, 1:26 AM

Grizzly is IMO about the same as the rest of the Asian Imports.. Powermatic has nicer knobs such but its way more money ..

Euro tools are way nicer.. and way more expensive. You get what you pay for ..

One thing to remember is that Grizzly sells direct to the public. Jet and the rest sell through retailers. So Grizzly is cheaper .. More competitive .. Customer service .. Grizzly wins.

Peter Quinn

05-10-2014, 6:43 AM

If you want a quality machine at an affordable price , used Euro is the way to go. Takes more effort, and a bit of homework but its better than some stuff that's green. Seriously, I do not consider any of the tools that I used last winter to be safe, especially the shapers.

Oh, Tata motors now owns Jaguar, so if you know anyone with a Jag make sure you mention that fact.

Larry

I was looking for a used shaper to replace my delta Hd for almost 3 years, never found a thing that fit, was saving for a new powermatic when one day on a whim after long since giving up I looked at Craig's list and found a barely used minimax t-40 in my back yard. Sure can take patience. On the green thing, I'm using a few now, haven't found anything unsafe, but changing spindles or speeds on the shapers has proven madening. And the fences? More like a Hollywood prop or strange joke than actual tool. Never seen a 7hp motor that small before either!

Scot wolf

05-10-2014, 6:55 AM

I have and have had more than a few griz tools. I have also used my share of high end stuff. I have not problem making what I need to make with the green tools. I don't have the resources to fill a shop with high end stuff, so the griz fits the bill. Other than a few elec issues, I have had years a service with all my griz stuff. Although I will admit I can't glout and strut aroung a interweb forum because I have the best and you don't.

Jeff Duncan

05-10-2014, 7:54 AM

I usually try to stay away from these types of posts as it's hard to give an opinion without sounding like your bashing one company or other. Or for guys to feel like your trying to boast about your equipment. I have to say though I think Peter's posts hit the nail on the head and I could not have said it any better.

The question becomes what do you want from a machine and what do you want to spend? As another guy who depends on my machines to make a living the majority of the equipment I buy is used. I have a thread here on an old 40+ year old SCM tilting shaper that I just rebuilt. I spent a good amount of time on it and invested a little money in it. Now I have a machine that I couldn't replace with anything new. Probably the closest would be well over $10k conservatively. Is that boasting about my equipment….I don't know? But for me it was by far the cheapest way to get a quality machine, as it cost me less than a new Grizzly! Also for me the idea of not being able to find a machine locally is a non-factor. Sure it's easier, but if you need a machine you get it. I've had equipment shipped halfway across the country. Now I'm not saying a guy doing this as a hobby in his garage should go so far. I'm just clarifying that the equipment is out there if one has the desire to get it. When you use your equipment to make money I think you look at it somewhat differently.

So it all comes down to what you want/need for your shop. In the beginning of this thread you sounded like money was no object and you wanted good quality equipment. Now it seems as though it's shifted to buying the least costly machine available? It's your shop so you have to make that decision. But I'll say again that I agree with Peter, I've bought new Grizzly and Bridgewood machines, and I've bought a lot of last generation new or almost new Powermatic and Delta equipment, and regardless of looks, they are not the same quality and they do not perform the same. Whether or not they are worth the premium they charge is a different issue, and one that only you can decide.

good luck,
JeffD

Curt Harms

05-10-2014, 8:02 AM

I was looking for a used shaper to replace my felt Hd for almost 3 years, never found a thing that fit, was saving for a new powermatic when one day on a whim after long since giving up I looked at Craig's list and found a barely used minimax t-40 in my back yard. Sure can take patience. On the green thing, I'm using a few now, haven't found anything unsafe, but changing spindles or speeds on the shapers has proven madening. And the fences? More like a Hollywood prop or strange joke than actual tool. Never seen a 7hp motor that small before either!

That's one thing I've noticed as well. Both my Rikon 10-325 1.5 h.p. and Jet JJP-12 3 h.p. motors are smaller than I'm used to. I have a 1.5 h.p. G.E. motor which has to be at least 25% larger and heavier than the Rikon motor. Both Asian motors seem to have adequate power for my uses but there have been complaints about the Jet JJP-12 overheating. Not when run for a few minutes at a time but when run continuously for perhaps an hour. It's in a fully enclosed base so little or not air circulation which I'm sure doesn't help. I doubt a Minimax or Hammer J/P would have the same limitation. For me it doesn't matter though, I only run it a few minutes at a time. If I were processing 400-500 bd. ft. at a time rather than 4-5 boards, it'd likely be a different story.

Ruhi Arslan

05-10-2014, 10:40 AM

What would you consider the "Toyota" brand of hobbiest tools?
For hobby use or not, in my opinion, Hammer is Toyota, Felder is Lexus made by Toyota. Then there is all those high end European luxury and/or performance cars.

scott vroom

05-10-2014, 11:46 AM

I've owned a Griz 15" spiral planer, 8" spiral jointer, 10" table saw for about 5 years and use them regularly, mostly on cabinet projects. I made my decision to purchase based on my belief that they were an exceptional value. 5 years later I still believe this to be true.

There are a few of posters at this site that consistently rip on Grizzly and I don't understand their enmity. Grizzly is a fantastic entry point for a hobbyist willing to deal with occasional (and mostly minor) mechanical issues.

Charles Coolidge

05-10-2014, 12:22 PM

This G0696X 12" 5HP table saw with a 2" thick 48" wide cast iron top costs $2,374 shipped. There is no new table saw under $5000 that is better than this saw. Lets see how it compares to the Powermatic PM2000 I have that cost substantially more. The PM2000 has a considerable crown right in the middle of the cast iron top a straight edge will rock back and forth on, the built in casters are falling apart I keep picking up pieces of the wheels that fall off, its currently broke down I think the start cap has gone bad, it uses puny fasteners on the rails, there's only 3 bolts holding on the rear rail, PM says you can drill a 4th hole if you want and install your own bolt, the Grizzly comes standard with 6 bolts front and rear. The table finish on the Grizzly is vastly superior to the PM2000. The PM2000 contact strips on the front rail are ground to about a 80 grit finish that chews up the nylon contact pads, the Grizzly is ground to about a 220 grit finish. Its not even a contest the Grizzly puts a beat down on the much more expensive Powermatic.

In my opinion on certain machines such as this saw Grizzly table saw, quality has been improving while at the same time other former top brands like Powermatic and Jet have gone down hill. This is not a universal truth, you can still find Grizzly machines with quality issues, you can still find other brands with a better machine in a given price range. That's why I have a mix of Powermatic, Grizzly, Jet, and Delta in my shop. But the days where you could count on Powermatic brand machines to be better than Grizzly are long gone.

289024

J.R. Rutter

05-10-2014, 12:39 PM

Grizzly is a fantastic entry point for a hobbyist willing to deal with occasional (and mostly minor) mechanical issues.

I think that's what it boils down to. Just be aware that "mostly minor" implies "sometimes major." At least they have warehouses full of new equipment and parts, and you can actually talk to a tech to help remedy problems.

Frank Martin

05-10-2014, 12:56 PM

My only experience with Grizzly was with the Jointer / Planer combo with a spiral head. It was the first ever machine sold in the US. It was supposedly checked by technicians before shipping. First time I turned it on the cutters hit the dust chute and damaged many of the cutters, which was due to an issue in original assembly. Customer service was great, they sent me new dust chute and cutter inserts. Then it worked fine for a while. Then, first the motor start capacitor went bust. Another time, the wheel that enables change from jointer to planer function got damaged. Again, service was great I could buy all the parts to make the machine operational again. All of this was actually with minimal, infrequent use because life got too busy and we also moved. I only made one dresser using the machine. In the end I sold it because it was the only machine that gave me so many problems. I also had a Unisaw and before the Grizzly Delta 6" jointer and lunch box planer. None of the Delta machines gave me any problems. Recently I have upgraded to a Minimax combination machine and it is easily better than both the Delta and the Grizzly machines. So, I am sure Grizzly has some better machines than the combo I had at one time, but seems like quality is not consistently good across different models. However, the price is also low, so basically you get roughly what you pay for.

Rod Sheridan

05-10-2014, 1:24 PM

Peter, were you using a General International or a General planer?

Big difference, General was made in Canada, General International is made in Taiwan....................Regards, Rod.

Rod Sheridan

05-10-2014, 1:43 PM

I have never owned any Grizzly machinery and probably never will.

I have owned a shop full of General (Made in Canada) machinery which has now been replaced by Hammer machinery.

My jointer and planer were replaced by a Hammer A3-31 jointer planer which gave me several benefits over my General equipment.

- space savings
- capacity increase
- lower cost
- easier knife changes
- excellent range of accessories such as digital height gauge, table extensions.

My cabinet saw and shaper were replaced by a Hammer B3 Winner with the comfort package and the 49" crosscut capacity. Benefits were

- increased capacity in crosscut from 12" to 49"
- sliding table with outrigger, able to process sheet goods and large solid wood pieces for furniture
- scoring saw
- improved dust collection
- 3 function rip fence for improved convenience and safety
- riving knife and overhead dust collection
- electronic blade brake
- ability to straight line rip material
- good range of accessories

On the shaper front the improvements were

- sliding table
- tilting spindle with 4 speeds
- ability to use sanding drums
- tenoning hood and table
- flip up stock feeder for use on the saw or shaper.
- ability to use 1 1/4" or 30mm tooling
- electronic blade brake
- good range of accessories

The differences between a Euro machine and an Asian or North American machine are far greater than quality control issues, the Euro machines are so much better in so many ways that they're not even in the same universe.

- dust collection, designed from the ground up to collect dust, because in the EU machines are actually tested for this under working conditions. Poor dust collections means nobody buys your equipment.

- safety, same thing, safety performance is legislated so machines have to meet safety standards. This means that machines are designed from the ground up to be safer so guards that actually work and help with work quality, automatic blade braking under a specified maximum time, MAN rated cutters for reduced kickback incidence and energy, and better design for workpiece support such as factory sliding tables and table extensions.

In my case the EU machines increased my safety, health, work capacity and convenience, while reducing my costs and space requirements.

Do yourself a favour and watch this video, it's long however it does a good job of illustrating the capabilities of EU hobby machines compared to NA hobby machines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV8A3XK3R0I

Regards, Rod.

David Kumm

05-10-2014, 2:04 PM

I'm a fan of high end used but all should keep in mind that the country of origin now mainly relevant depending on the price point of the machine. All countries are capable of good or bad stuff. Very few make good stuff for few dollars. Even the Euro machines, particularly the lower end are not all Euro. Parts and sometimes substantial components are sourced from Asia, including China. The Euros do a better job of QC over those sources in my opinion and make some great stuff, but it is incorrect to assume that Euro is all Euro. Dave

Duane Meadows

05-10-2014, 2:13 PM

Yep, proves if you spend more money, you get more features. Same can be said for Grizzly.

Guess if you want to spend the money on Euro tools, go for it. But you can't convince everyone that is what's best for their situation any more than you can convince me a Rolls Royce is best for me. This is one of the biggest complaints I see with woodworking forums in general. They keep telling me I shouldn't attempt woodworking because I can't/won't spend $10's or $100's of thousands of dollars for "the best" tools?

If you can/want to, fine, but geez give me a break! Talent/skill/technique counts for nothing these days?:mad::mad: Have to think really hard about supporting a forum of tool snobs again! Nuff said.

Well not quite enough... I still have all my body parts after 30 some years of using such "inferior tools". And admins, if wish to ban me or delete this post, feel free!

Peter Quinn

05-10-2014, 2:49 PM

Peter, were you using a General International or a General planer?

Big difference, General was made in Canada, General International is made in Taiwan....................Regards, Rod.

Oh, general international Rod. I wish it were the Canadian made stuff, but its the basic Chaiwan model that looks like every other brands planers. The general stuff seems to be real industrial machinery with a price to match.

Uh...just went to check the General web site....every tool on every page has the general international badge. Is anything actually made by general any more, or is it all general international?

Michael Yadfar

05-10-2014, 3:25 PM

So it all comes down to what you want/need for your shop. In the beginning of this thread you sounded like money was no object and you wanted good quality equipment. Now it seems as though it's shifted to buying the least costly machine available? It's your shop so you have to make that decision. But I'll say again that I agree with Peter, I've bought new Grizzly and Bridgewood machines, and I've bought a lot of last generation new or almost new Powermatic and Delta equipment, and regardless of looks, they are not the same quality and they do not perform the same. Whether or not they are worth the premium they charge is a different issue, and one that only you can decide.

good luck,
JeffD

I truly do have a good amount of money to spend, I have maybe $30,000 worth of money I don't need for at least a few years and I recently upped my work hours. Realistically though it turns back down to a best value kind of thing and what my use is. My shop is going to be a weekend hobby type thing and I'm building some furniture for my personal use; so yes, I could go out and buy say Minimax equipment, but for what I'm using my equipment for, it may be better saving most that $30,000 for something I will need later, like say a new truck. Plus like I said I'm in a shed shop right now, so while I hope to avoid it, I would rather see a mouse nest in a $2,000 planer rather than a $5,000 planer.

Now the reason why I'm avoiding "better Asian" brands like Jet are because of the value issue. I've heard many things elsewhere before about Asian brands coming off the same assembly lines and stuff. If we are talking a few hundred dollars more I would rather go with the slight Jet upgrade, but it's $2,000 vs $3,000 for what I see as essentially the same machine.

Even this is an upgrade to my initial plan to get a lunchbox planer. That's seriously what I considered at first, but something I learned is that a lunch box planer stands no chance against rough sawn lumber...

David Weaver

05-10-2014, 3:28 PM

I guess Kia would be the correct comparison to Grizzly, and I guess a company like Jet would be the Toyota type company. I feel like the brands I never heard of like Tata or Yugo are more like Harbor Freight type stuff. I guess it's safe to say that Grizzly is the lowest of the "good" brands

The basic felder, minimax and other mid to high end hobbyist machines are what I'd equate to toyota. Even without regard to price, there is little more consistent quality and consistent durability than toyotas, even though all of the makers have slipped a little as they've relocated production and chased market demands for certain things.

Grizzly equipment is generally inexpensive, and there is no differentiator with it that would make someone believe it's more likely to be to tight spec and more durable than anything else.

The grizzly equipment that I've seen is a little less well finished than new jet and new powermatic, but WMH (or whoever their owner is this week) has gone nutty with price, so they're sort of like hyundai with acura prices.

But all of these comparisons to cars aren't really relevant. They are woodworking machines, and not cars.

And as was said earlier, you can't even count on brand, because it's not like someone has a corporate office with their factory through the back doors of the headquarters - you have to read up on each machine.

Mike Delyster

05-10-2014, 3:50 PM

Oh, general international Rod. I wish it were the Canadian made stuff, but its the basic Chaiwan model that looks like every other brands planers. The general stuff seems to be real industrial machinery with a price to match.

Uh...just went to check the General web site....every tool on every page has the general international badge. Is anything actually made by general any more, or is it all general international?

Sadly General shut down their Canadian production last year, so everything comes from Taiwan now under the General International name.

Dave Verstraete

05-10-2014, 3:57 PM

Michael
I haven't read through all of the preceding posts but would just like to put in my 2 cents. I have the 0453 planer with the spiral head and it has served me well. I would buy it again.

Rod Sheridan

05-10-2014, 6:18 PM

Duane, I never said anything about that being the solution for everyone, what I indicated was that regardless of who makes the tools, there are better options than the out of date North American style machines.

You can buy a made in the USA or made in China machine, and you'll get what you pay for.

We've all owned some really crap North American made tools and machines, likewise Chinese.

I completely agree with you on skills, I'm not super however I do a lot of hand work including dovetails and morticing as well as finish planing by hand.

Woodworking is a journey, it's the learning that's the fun part.............Regards, Rod.

Jim Barstow

05-10-2014, 9:12 PM

This reminds me of the arguments we use to have over component brands back when I bicycled a lot. It was ridiculous to hear people argue over ounces in weights when they were carrying around an extra 20 lbs on their body. I once lived across a cove from a guy who owned part of an NBA team. He had a dream shop filled with very expensive equipment and he gave me an tour of every square inch. Didn't matter how much he spent on his tools, he still built stuff that was poor quality.

I use to have a shop full of Inca equipment (very high quality Swiss made tools). When I built a bigger shop, I filled it with a Sawstop and heavy Grizzly equipment. The Grizzly joint and planer gives me perfectly flat and square stock. The Grizzly bandsaw will resaw the thickest stuff I've thrown at it and cut it perfectly straight. That's only a tiny part of the process; much more important is what I do with it.

bob cohen

05-10-2014, 9:19 PM

They are not, I own both and for some machines Grizzly is superior at a much lower cost. Not every machine in every category but one example is the Grizzly G0696x 12" 5hp table saw, it is superior to the Powermatic PM2000 10" and cost less. I have both and know them both well. The 8" parallelogram jointer is another example where Grizzly and PM are about the exact same machine, same castings same factory both have CHINA motor. I called up PM and asked them if they could tell me what I would get for the much higher priced PM and they couldn't list a single feature.

I have owned both of these planers. The powermatic fence, which is adjusted by a very smooth hand wheel, is far superior to the grizzly. Ir should also be noted that the powermatic comes virtually fully assembled.

Art Mann

05-10-2014, 9:26 PM

Even this is an upgrade to my initial plan to get a lunchbox planer. That's seriously what I considered at first, but something I learned is that a lunch box planer stands no chance against rough sawn lumber...

Please don't let my Ridgid TP1300 lunchbox planer hear you say that! It is unaware of your claim and has planed thousands of feet of rough sawn Walnut, Cherry, Maple, White Oak and other hard woods over the last 10 years. If it learns it has such limitations, it might stop working.

Mike Chalmers

05-11-2014, 4:42 AM

Even this is an upgrade to my initial plan to get a lunchbox planer. That's seriously what I considered at first, but something I learned is that a lunch box planer stands no chance against rough sawn lumber...
Where in the informed world did you get that information? I would wager there are many people, if not most, on this site that would argue that point. Then again, if you have that kind of money available, I would vote for at least a 15" planer, preferably a 20".

Michael Yadfar

05-11-2014, 5:44 AM

Where in the informed world did you get that information? I would wager there are many people, if not most, on this site that would argue that point. Then again, if you have that kind of money available, I would vote for at least a 15" planer, preferably a 20".

The issue in argument with that is the fact that I want a spiral head. What I believe to be the top lunchbox planer, the Dewalt, I've heard of many issues with blade chipping and blades definitely aren't cheap. Another negative thing I've heard about these is that lunchbox planers in general have bad snipe. If I were to put a spiral head on one of these, the spiral head would out cost the planer and I'll be paying around $1,100. I would also have issues with not having enough power. For that price, I thought a lower quality stationary planer with a spiral head would be better off. For $700 more, it buys me a Grizzly 3hp spiral head planer.

Larry Edgerton

05-11-2014, 6:54 AM

I truly do have a good amount of money to spend, I have maybe $30,000 worth of money .

As an example of what I am talking about used, I just saw a Knapp combination machine go for $12,000. Four years old, sliding tablesaw, shaper, planer, jointer, mortising table and a router spindle that speeds up the bit to an acceptable speed. Every piece of that machine is better than anything coming out of China, and for about the same cost as junk separates. But its not as easy as opening up a catalog picking something out.

Larry

Ronald Blue

05-11-2014, 10:10 AM

The bottom line is Grizzly sells a lot of wood working tools to those who don't have unlimited amounts of cash available. What they sold in 1995 bares little resemblance to what they offer today. But many want to hold their feet to the fire for those products which are long gone. They continue to work at bringing new and improved products to the market. I stopped by the Springfield store just this past week because there is no better place to go dream IMHO. I don't have any nagging or specific needs of anything at this time but they will be the first place I look when I do. I am not in the minority here either. You can buy whatever you choose and I hope you do. This has become a Grizzly bash but for some. Most if not all have hit on a key point. Their customer service is first rate. Not all can say that. Good luck in whatever you buy.

Cary Falk

05-11-2014, 11:18 AM

So far I've bought a Jet 6" jointer used and a new Ridgid table saw which I got for 25% off, and I've been satisfied with them.
I'm simply looking for opinions from the woodworkers on Sawmill Creek on Grizzly as a brand before I go out and buy.

To get this post back on track, I quoted the original question.
The answer is:

If you are satisfied with Jet and Ridgid you will be more than satisfied with Grizzly. If you care to spend 2-10X $$$$ I am sure you will be happy with that choice also.

Jim Andrew

05-11-2014, 11:20 AM

I have a Grizzly Go453px, and if your planer has issues, it needs to be re-adjusted. Mine works great. It is well designed for dust collection too. IMO one of the better pieces of equipment that Grizzly offers. And I have had 3 Toyota pickups. They were all the best vehicles I've had in my life. Oh, and I'm crazy about my open end widebelt sander from Grizzly, G9983. Takes a little time, but I can grind panels down flat and smooth, just need to hit them with a ROS.

scott vroom

05-11-2014, 11:29 AM

Shiraz Balolia

05-11-2014, 12:30 PM

I too am growing weary of the Grizzly bashing. When I first outfitted my shop I sought advice, did some research and concluded that for what I had to invest, Grizzly was the most bang for the buck. For less than I'd have had to pay for a single Euro machine, I got a 15" planner, 8" jointer, and a 10" table saw. In the 5 years I've owned my tools, I've had minimal mechanical issues and have been delighted with their performance. Would I like to have had $50,000 to invest in tools? Of course. But I didn't. It's like the other poster said: Don't tell me that I need your Rolls Royce when all I can afford is a Toyota. Grizzly bashing is doing a disservice to prospective new hobbyists on limit budgets who would likely be satisfied with the value Grizzly has to offer. If you're a euro fanatic, good on you.....just don't demean those of us who have opted for a different entry point.

Thank you!

We have been responsible for keeping the prices low for the majority of this industry because there are no middlemen. Our Grizzly brand is sold directly to the end users at very tight margins, while the Jet, Powermatic, General Int., etc are sold through dealers that also have to have margins for running their businesses. Nothing wrong with that, and there is a place in commerce for that, but don't mistake a lower price for lower quality.

We probably sell more machines than all three of the above brands combined. Obviously when you ship tens of thousands of pounds of machines a day, you are going to have freight damage (which we promptly get blamed for), you get some issues that can slip by, even though we have strict quality control at source with about a dozen QC engineers on our staff overseas. We also have the largest parts department in the industry and it IS a fact that owners of other brand machines come looking to us for parts for "similar" machines because they could not get parts from that company. We have a 30,000 sq feet parts facility and have parts in stock for machines up to 31 years old, which is how old Grizzly is. In fact most of our parts are on the web and can be ordered with a few clicks on the keyboard. We have spent millions of dollars on writing technical manuals and creating a good long term after service for our customers. In fact, from time to time, some brands have attempted to copy our manuals (not a happy ending for them).

Threads like this bring out the naysayers that for some reason cannot let it go, even though we probably fixed their problem. I remember a thread where a jointer/planer got damaged in shipping. The whole thing played out on this forum. Of course the bashers came out "if you bought such and such Italian machine this would never have happened" type of comments. We sent him another machine, completely checked out and crated better, which was also destroyed by the shipping company. Again - more blame to us on the forum. Then we completed tested and crated a third machine with reinforcements, and that got destroyed by the shipping company. We refused to ship another machine because there obviously was a problem within the freight route at one of the terminals. We lost money, he got a full refund. The fact that we get full compensation for freight damage from freight companies is a myth! At the urging of some members of this forum he bought an Italian jointer/planer for much more money. It came in a cardboard covered pallet and the factory had stapled the cardboard through on to the aluminum "fingers" next to the cutterhead.

Errors happen with any brand, but we have sold and continue to sell hundreds of thousands of machines at affordable prices with great after service. If something does go wrong, we are there for you! Oh, and the spiral cutters heads - we were the first company to offer them on jointers and the first to make them commercially affordable for the 15" and 20" planers. It all comes down to the fact that we know woodworking and almost every person in management, including myself, uses and knows woodworking machinery. You can see some of my work here - made with Grizzly machines, of course.

http://www.grizzly.com/the-presidents-guitars

Steve Rozmiarek

05-11-2014, 12:52 PM

Following Shiraz's post is a little intimidating, but I'll offer my .02. I'm a euro machine user and fan, however, I think that Grizzly does more good for the woodworking hobby then Felder, Minimax and Martin combined. There is a need for good usable tools in the price range that they sell, and Griz fills that void nicely with perfectly adequate options. As the other old standby brands like Delta and Porter Cable fade, Grizzly has improved their offerings. To me, it looks like Grizzly is not racing to the bottom like the rest, and I applaud that.

Michael Yadfar

05-11-2014, 1:18 PM

People keep getting labelled as Grizzly "bashers", but IMO there hasn't been any of that. People are giving honest opinions that I would get better results out of a MiniMax than a Grizzly, and that's completely true, I've known that before starting the forum. There are obviously people here that are associated with Grizzly, so there is some bias going around in that way. But the most consistent advice I get on here is that "you get what you pay for" and I definitely agree with that and it definitely points out that I do have some thinking to do. I guess what I'm more looking for at this point is the "value" factor. If Grizzly is consistent in price to value, I may go with it. I obviously wouldn't expect it to be anywhere close to the good old Cassadei I used, but if it's workable I may go with it. Only thing I hate doing is buying outside the US, but unfortunately that's the approach I have to take if I want any new machine within a reasonable budget

Shiraz Balolia

05-11-2014, 1:29 PM

There are obviously people here that are associated with Grizzly, so there is some bias going around in that way.

Allow me to clarify that. Of all the posters on this thread, there is only ONE person that is associated with Grizzly and that is me. Almost everyone on this board knows my association to Grizzly.

Ed Loudermilk

05-11-2014, 2:22 PM

Hello all!
I'm more of a reader than a poster but I couldn't resist. I own half a dozen or more Grizzly tools, all purchased new, between the last 8 -15 years.
A table saw, 6" jointer, 12" swing wood lathe with a reeves drive, dust collector, 16 speed bench top drill press, 1" belt 9" disc sander. Other than normal maintenance, a belt replacement and annual tune-ups, they have all worked flawlessly. For reference, when I was in the USAF the "Carpenter Shop" was outfitted with nothing but Powermatic tools , all of what I would refer to as industrial size. The disc sander was a 36" monster as one example. My bang for the buck Grizzly tools have done every thing I've asked of them just as the Powermatics did back then. I also have a few Delta tools as well, a 14" band saw and 16" scroll saw, no problems with them either.

At one time in my life the only battery powered tools I would purchase were Milwaukee. Why? I sipped the koolaid! I now have a fairly large variety of Ryobi + one tools, they are great tools for the price. My point? The best tools for anybody are the ones that fit your needs, wants or possibly your pocket book.

I drive a fully loaded Ford F150, Lariat Crew cab, leather, 4x4, twin turbo charged V-6 that I bought new......could of bought a Toyota!!!

Have a great day!
Ed

Charles Coolidge

05-11-2014, 2:27 PM

Relax Shiraz Grizzly's quality, value, and customer service stands out in many machine categories and price points.

Ed Loudermilk

05-11-2014, 3:13 PM

"For reference, when I was in the USAF the "Carpenter Shop" was outfitted with nothing but Powermatic tools , all of what I would refer to as industrial size."

A quick follow-up!
A very good friend of mine still works in the "Carpenter Shop". All of the Powermatic tools have been replaced...............
With Grizzly!

I have also threatened to upgrade my lathe to a G0733! That will happen, some day, soon! I'm going to drive an 11 hour round trip to the Springfield Mo. Store to pick it up so I can look at all of the other GREEN eye candy. It would be so cool to talk to the Pres. of Grizzly while there!!!:D

Jak Kelly

05-11-2014, 4:27 PM

Through the last 10 years I have purchased 5 Grizzly machines; table-saw, drill press, band-saw, dust collector, midi lathe. Been impressed with each and everyone of them! They are good machines with a great value for the money spent.
The only one I have been somewhat disappointed in was my drill press. The reason for that being I was given a Walker Turner drill press, beleived to be on its last leg, spent numerous hours bringing it back into condition, research............ then gave it to my father to keep in his barn at the farm. Which it will probably belong to me again, someday. But, as stated before, that machine was a huge heavy cast piece of assembly line production type machinery, no comparison!!!!!

Are there better machines out there, absolutely! But finding a better machine, in the same price range, is going to be a difficult task.

Andrew Joiner

05-11-2014, 5:13 PM

People are giving honest opinions that I would get better results out of a MiniMax than a Grizzly, and that's completely true, I've known that before starting the forum.

My experience as a cabinetmaker has been different. I would say the machine is 20% of the equation, Blades,knives or bits 30% and the operator 50%.

Here's an example. Take 3 cabinet saws. An Asian, Italian and old iron USA made. All have similar specs and hp. Any of the saws with a good blade and set-up will glue line rip thick hardwood. Any of the saws can be used to make the finest of furniture.

If you wanted me to make a fine piece and I had to use either a $5000 Italian saw or a $2000 Asian saw I'd choose the one with the best blade.

Michael Yadfar

05-11-2014, 6:35 PM

My experience as a cabinetmaker has been different. I would say the machine is 20% of the equation, Blades,knives or bits 30% and the operator 50%.

Here's an example. Take 3 cabinet saws. An Asian, Italian and old iron USA made. All have similar specs and hp. Any of the saws with a good blade and set-up will glue line rip thick hardwood. Any of the saws can be used to make the finest of furniture.

If you wanted me to make a fine piece and I had to use either a $5000 Italian saw or a $2000 Asian saw I'd choose the one with the best blade.

Kind of like you got the old school guys who build everything with hand tools. I've never met any of these guys and there are few out there, but boy do I have respect for them. There's some cool stuff they make too. There's a guy I know who took an internship with some guy who is well known, he builds houses with all hand tools starting with a tree. He cuts the trees down with an axe, squares the tree with a hatchet, and eventually builds houses with only hand tools, even sharpens his blades with a rock. He also has a philosophy that the persons house who he's building has to help, I believe it was Bill Murray who was a celebrity to help him.

Frank Martin

05-11-2014, 11:13 PM

I have not purchased a Jet or Powermatic recently and based on comments here looked for their prices. It does seem like they raised them a ton. Given this, despite my less than great experience in the past in it's price range Grizzly is indeed a great value. Just be ready to replace / repair parts if something goes wrong. Given a lot of other people's no hassle experience seems like there is a fair chance many won't have to address mechanical issues. I have very limited time for my hobby and have no interest in repairing machines, so not my top choice. But, for many with a limited budget, I do think that Grizzly is a great choice. I have seen threads about Delta parts availability issues, at least Grizzly is a far safer choice than other Asian made brands given stable ownership. If you want not marginal but much higher quality euro machines are still the right choice but you will pay for it.

Henry Kramer

05-11-2014, 11:56 PM

I don't want to bash specifically on Grizzly however I have equipped my shop with older Delta/Rockwell and Powermatic machines some over 60 years old and couldn't be happier with them. And I didn't break the bank buying used machines. They were top notch US made quality and have withstood the test of time. Maybe replacing bearings or have a motor rebuilt from time to time. I won't be around but I would be surprised if the Asian machines will be performing as well when they are 60+ years old.

Jim Andrew

05-12-2014, 9:09 AM

Michael Yadfar

05-12-2014, 9:37 AM

With all the regulation currently, don't believe we are going to have to worry about any new American manufacturing of woodworking machinery, so we might as well embrace the asian built machines, unless you have the funds to purchase euro machines. Having bought a Hammer tablesaw, I asked the question of "how much" for the Hammer combo machine, was told to purchase the all in one, you have to mortgage the house. So think I will stick with mostly Grizzly equipment. Have found that it is worth the money to buy the best cutters and blades, you can run Freud or Tenryu blades on your asian built machinery, sure makes a difference in the quality of your cut. And where I live, used is hard to come by without driving across 2 states. I did get a used drill press and dovetail jig, but have seen 1 PM66 in the last year on Craigslist.

Ive never marketed machinery so I'm probably wrong, but I'm sure if a company put out an American made line of machinery they could charge whatever and still have a decent amount of consumers. They are dwindling down, but I know there's still a bunch of people out there that would be willing to pay 2-3x for something if it's American made regardless the quality, so I feel there would be a market for it. I try to be one of those guys, I buy American made clothing, shoes, hand tools, etc. When it comes to big bucks though, I tend to find myself buying Asian stuff unfortunately, and stuff like technology is all Asian made

As for used, it's the same sort of deal for me. I can find some tools like decent bandsaws within an hour, but something like a planer? Forget it. I drove about an hour to get my jointer too. Another issue I hate with used machinery is say maybe I find a nice planer, but the guy lives 5 hours away. For all I know, I could drive all that way and find out the machine is not as advertised. After spending over $100 in gas and toles, you almost feel forced to buy it regardless. I've had a similar situation before where I drove all the way out to deliver a go kart some guy said he would buy for $500, and he ended up telling me it's not what he expected, and I ended up selling it for $50 because I drove all the way out there and had a dirtbike I was buying nearby lined up.

Jeff Duncan

05-12-2014, 10:51 AM

I They are dwindling down, but I know there's still a bunch of people out there that would be willing to pay 2-3x for something if it's American made regardless the quality, so I feel there would be a market for it. I try to be one of those guys, I buy American made clothing, shoes, hand tools, etc. When it comes to big bucks though, I tend to find myself buying Asian stuff unfortunately, and stuff like technology is all Asian made

I think your probably wrong on that one. There are a lot of guys who like to talk about buying American made, but when it comes down to spending more to get essentially the same product….well then it's a different story. FWIW I don't even pretend, I'm not spending more on a product made here just b/c it's made here. I believe just b/c it's made in any particular country does not indicate quality, I'm a Mac user and Mac products are mostly, (or maybe all?), made in China these days. I've never had a problem with the quality of my Mac, but it also isn't competing to be the cheapest computer;)

As for used….it's not for everyone. I like used b/c I can get a LOT more machine for my money than I ever could new. If we're still going with car analogies it's like a choice between a new Ford F-150 w/ a 6 cylinder engine, and a used F350 to tow a big ole' trailer every day. Either of them can do the job, but one is much better suited to doing it day in and day out. My 9 hp planer can mill stock all day long, my last planer, (a brand new 5 hp import), would get the job done, but would bog down easily and so I had to go lightly with it. For someone working a couple hours on the weekend this isn't really an issue. For me looking at a stack of several hundred bd. ft. of 4/4 hard maple, it's a little different. So what works for me may not work for the next guy. To that end if your goal is to work wood on the weekends and not spend a lot of time looking for and rebuilding equipment, buying new may be your best option!

I also agree that good quality tooling makes a big difference. It will not make a poor machine work well, but a good machine will perform it's best with good tooling.

Anyway I think you've gotten some decent advice here. Outside of a few sensitive folks, and some almost comical straw-man arguments about Grizzly bashing, there's enough of the good and bad to have a good idea of what to expect. And believe me there are far worse tools out there than Grizzly! A dust collector I bought from Bridgewood was the biggest piece of junk I've ever made the mistake of buying. I don't think I even plugged it in before selling that turd! My Grizzly 2 hp collector was much better, though still not as well built as my old Delta. Reliant was another manufacturer of sub-par machines. Last thing I'll add is to keep in mind the price point of the machinery you buy. You might do better to buy a slightly bigger tool than to buy the smallest, (i.e. most affordable), tool from Grizzly. For example a larger 20" "Extreme planer", may be more "value" than the basic 20" planer?

good luck,
JeffD

johnny means

05-12-2014, 11:19 AM

No, woodworker or proper gentleman with an ounce of dignity would ever consider buying Grizzly products. It sickens me to type the word.

Now, would you please pass the Grey Poupon.

Ed Loudermilk

05-12-2014, 11:43 AM

No, woodworker or proper gentleman with an ounce of dignity would ever consider buying Grizzly products. It sickens me to type the word.

Now, would you please pass the Grey Poupon.

Lol!!!
I owner many different brands including 6 Grizzly tagged machines.
Pass the ketchup please!:-P

Jim German

05-12-2014, 11:56 AM

I'll throw my two sense in. I've got a grizzly jointer that just a few years old and I've never had any problems with it. It certinly gets the job done and is reliable. The fence isn't great, the depth scale sucks, and I get some tear out, even with the segmented carbide cutterhead. But I'm happy with it. I was looking at Felder jointer/planers the other day, and sure they're in a different league qualitly wise... but they are also in a different league price wise, so whats the point in comparing them?

The only worthwhile comparison is a new grizzly vs an old industrial class machine. Thats far more interesting, but its still not apples to apples. In that case the question is are you willing to deal with some refurbishment, 3-phase power, heavy machines than you need, and the risk of buying used with no warranty.

Glen Blanchard

05-12-2014, 1:13 PM

Here's my take on this subject.

In my opinion, Grizzly offers the best bang for the buck (ie, value). You can buy better, but the dollar:unit of improved quality (real or perceived) ratio will be higher. Sometimes one may only be looking for the top value, wanting to spend only enough to get the job done. Other times that same person may be willing to spend the money on the next best machine up the totem pole even though he may spend (let's say) 30% more to get a 10% "better" machine.

I have approached it both ways. The tools in my shop range from Grizzly to Sawstop/MM/Festool - and a brand new Robust lathe. :)

Larry Edgerton

05-12-2014, 5:41 PM

I was looking for a used shaper to replace my delta Hd for almost 3 years, never found a thing that fit, was saving for a new powermatic when one day on a whim after long since giving up I looked at Craig's list and found a barely used minimax t-40 in my back yard. Sure can take patience. On the green thing, I'm using a few now, haven't found anything unsafe, but changing spindles or speeds on the shapers has proven madening. And the fences? More like a Hollywood prop or strange joke than actual tool. Never seen a 7hp motor that small before either!

Peter

I just checked the spindle on my 20 year old T3 as I am getting ready to sell it. After miles and miles of mouldings, who knows how many doors, it still did not move the needle on the dial indicator. Thats the first SCM/Minimax I bought and was what got me hooked. The stuff is expensive, but I see it as one part of the equation that I do not have to worry about.

Larry

Peter Quinn

05-12-2014, 7:26 PM

Peter

I just checked the spindle on my 20 year old T3 as I am getting ready to sell it. After miles and miles of mouldings, who knows how many doors, it still did not move the needle on the dial indicator. Thats the first SCM/Minimax I bought and was what got me hooked. The stuff is expensive, but I see it as one part of the equation that I do not have to worry about.

Larry

LOL...mine too! It was used as a back up coper in a small commercial shop, mostly for wall to wall wainscot paneling. Guy had both spindles, had never even put the 3/4" on the machine. When I checked the run out I thought my dial indicator was broken, kept checking it. Nothing, no runout. So smooth sanding is infinitely easier than previously with the delta....which was made in USA. I love speed changes....10 second affair. And spindle changes...maybe 45 seconds if I forgot how to do it. These are the things I think about when I am under the hood of an asian import kicking the motor to release the belt tension so I can change belt sizes (who in this world thought that was a good idea), 12 minutes and 3 busted knuckles later I realize I'd like to bump up one speed.....but the machine doesn't have it, speed range is off what I would like by about 15OO rpm in the middle range, either too fast or slow for a corrugated head and panel raiser. My minimax goes down to around 1500 (with lots of appropriate stops in between) so you can use it for pattern sanding. Not that I have, but I love having that potential. Great speed range, good spindle nut, they nailed it all. Its almost like the guys who designed the minimax actually knew what it was going to be used for and designed it to make that job easier? Interesting concept.

Jak Kelly

05-13-2014, 9:00 AM

I smell a TROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone else thinking the same thing????

Bill White

05-13-2014, 10:07 AM

As my final contribution to this thread......
How many times have the presidents of other WWing machinery companies posted responses or stated positions about their company?
Anybody know the name of the president of Delta, Jet, Powermatic?
Mr. Balolia is to be commended on his response.
I keep using Grizzly products.
Bill

Harold Burrell

05-13-2014, 10:34 AM

I smell a TROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone else thinking the same thing????

Maybe I missed something, but...no.

I just see a bunch of guys with differing opinions. People can be funny, you know. Especially us woodworkers. Our hobby (and in some cases, "livelihood") can be rather expensive when it comes to tools. And we each have our own "standards" and budgets when it comes to purchasing that equipment. I know I, for one, didn't take it lightly when I spent the money. However, in my case, my budget greatly narrowed my choices. At the same time, I thought long and hard over those choices before I made the purchase.

Let me give you an example...

My first table saw was a portable craftsman. I was pretty limited by what I could do on it, so I decided to upgrade. I had "X" amount of dollars to spend, so I did some research and I eventually narrowed my choices down to a Ridgid (marble top) and a Grizzly.

I went with the Grizzly.

It worked out for me. And I have since purchased other big machines from them (jointer, bandsaw, etc.).

Now...here's the deal...and why these threads can get a little "interesting"...(And, remember, this is just my observation)...

I'll be honest, whenever I see guys bashing Grizzly I take it a little personal. Not because I have any particular vested interested in that particular company (though I do think Shiraz is cool :) ), but because I don't like to be told that the hundreds of $$$ that I have spent was on junk. Especially when I am happy with it...because then I am being told that I don't know what I am talking about (which may very well be the case...I just don't want other people to know ;)).

Let's say, however, that I had ended up with the Ridgid. Well, then...things would be different. "Grizzly bashing" would have been more appealing to me. Because then I could have bolstered my ego and self-esteem by convincing myself that I had done the right thing.

BUT...let's say I had gone a different direction and saved up MORE money and bought a...I dunno...a Uni-Saw! Now, the LAST thing I would want to hear was that I could have gotten a Grizzly (that was just as good) for CHEAPER!

Oh...perish the thought.

So...anyway...the point of my rambling here is this...sometimes we might have to cut each other a little slack. This can get personal. Sometimes, it's not just the brands we are bashing here...it's each other.

OK...I'll shut-up and go back to my corner now. :o

Jim Sevey

05-13-2014, 12:35 PM

Car brands aside- I own several Grizzly tools and have owned lots of other brands. I found that the "entry level" Grizzly products are not the quality I like to see in a tool. I had a small shaper and it had more problems than I was willing to deal with and sold it. I got a table saw (G0690) and love it. Fit/finish/power/accuracy all good. Same with the bandsaw (G0513). The G0462 lathe does the job- but it's definitely lacking in some areas and I wish I bought the G0733 or another brand. In short- the higher priced, more powerful machines are better- the cheaper ones that most of us are tempted by not so much.

Jak Kelly

05-13-2014, 2:03 PM

Maybe I missed something, but...no.

I just see a bunch of guys with differing opinions. People can be funny, you know. Especially us woodworkers. Our hobby (and in some cases, "livelihood") can be rather expensive when it comes to tools. And we each have our own "standards" and budgets when it comes to purchasing that equipment. I know I, for one, didn't take it lightly when I spent the money. However, in my case, my budget greatly narrowed my choices. At the same time, I thought long and hard over those choices before I made the purchase.

Let me give you an example...

My first table saw was a portable craftsman. I was pretty limited by what I could do on it, so I decided to upgrade. I had "X" amount of dollars to spend, so I did some research and I eventually narrowed my choices down to a Ridgid (marble top) and a Grizzly.

I went with the Grizzly.

It worked out for me. And I have since purchased other big machines from them (jointer, bandsaw, etc.).

Now...here's the deal...and why these threads can get a little "interesting"...(And, remember, this is just my observation)...

I'll be honest, whenever I see guys bashing Grizzly I take it a little personal. Not because I have any particular vested interested in that particular company (though I do think Shiraz is cool :) ), but because I don't like to be told that the hundreds of $$$ that I have spent was on junk. Especially when I am happy with it...because then I am being told that I don't know what I am talking about (which may very well be the case...I just don't want other people to know ;)).

Let's say, however, that I had ended up with the Ridgid. Well, then...things would be different. "Grizzly bashing" would have been more appealing to me. Because then I could have bolstered my ego and self-esteem by convincing myself that I had done the right thing.

BUT...let's say I had gone a different direction and saved up MORE money and bought a...I dunno...a Uni-Saw! Now, the LAST thing I would want to hear was that I could have gotten a Grizzly (that was just as good) for CHEAPER!

Oh...perish the thought.

So...anyway...the point of my rambling here is this...sometimes we might have to cut each other a little slack. This can get personal. Sometimes, it's not just the brands we are bashing here...it's each other.

OK...I'll shut-up and go back to my corner now. :o

I understand what you are saying.
But look at the first part of the thread; "Pretty much I have the money for the stuff, there's no question or issue about that." or "I'm a young worker with four years of experience in a shop with some of the best tools out there and learned from one of the best in the trade."

If money is no object and you had 4 years of experience in a professional shop, why would you be here getting opinions???? Just an observation, maybe I am wrong...........

J.R. Rutter

05-13-2014, 2:29 PM

OP has been respectful, as have most of the responses. The thread is still here, right?

I would say that the best of the Grizzly product line has clearly moved beyond the "full scale model of original" that typified early far east imports, and still defines the very low end of consumer goods today.

Michael Yadfar

05-13-2014, 3:30 PM

I understand what you are saying.
But look at the first part of the thread; "Pretty much I have the money for the stuff, there's no question or issue about that." or "I'm a young worker with four years of experience in a shop with some of the best tools out there and learned from one of the best in the trade."

If money is no object and you had 4 years of experience in a professional shop, why would you be here getting opinions???? Just an observation, maybe I am wrong...........

It is a good observation and I will explain that. Money really isn't an issue, I have a lot of money to blow, but I don't want to blow a lot of money, I should have clarified that. I'm kind of looking for the best bang for the buck; I don't want something that would be underpowered (ie benchtop planers), but at the same time I still want to work on a bit of a budget. I don't quite have a shop yet where I would want top of the line tools, and this is not my career, it's a weekend hobby. Later in my life maybe I'll upgrade, but like I said for at least the next 4 years I'm not looking to blow a lot of money.

Im getting opinions because although I have four years of shop experience, I have never owned any stationary power tools of my own, and I've only worked out of one shop. Give me a shop full of tools and wood, and I'll build you a cabinet; but give me an empty shop with a tool catalog, and it's a bit of a different world. I've used Delta/Rockwell (USA), Rockwell (USA), Powermatic (USA), Sawstop, Oliver (USA), Cassadei (Italy), Milwaukee. A lot of this stuff you can't even find and stuff equivalent is often very expensive

johnny means

05-13-2014, 4:49 PM

From personal experience I've met the owners of Felder and Lee Valley, and they respond to issues personally.

I don't own any Grizzly machinery, I do believe they fill a need in the market place, however I don't consider their customer support great as the customer is the field service crew.

I've had field service from two other manufacturers to my house, sure beats trying to wrestle an 800 pound machine up the door.....LOL...........Regards, Rod.

I can assure you that the "owner" of Felder does not respond to issues personally.:roll eyes: I'd like to know what companies are sending techs to consumers doors.

Rod Sheridan

05-13-2014, 4:55 PM

I can assure you that the "owner" of Felder does not respond to issues personally.:roll eyes: I'd like to know what companies are sending techs to consumers doors.

You're entitled to believe what you wish, however if you go to an open house at Felder you occasionally get to meet members of the family and they do respond to personal issues.

As to which companies field service people I've had at my house, Felder and General.......Regards, Rod.

johnny means

05-13-2014, 5:27 PM

Paul McGaha

05-13-2014, 5:49 PM

How is Grizzly overall as a brand?

Just from what I read here on the creek I think Grizzly is a very popular and well liked brand. Their strong points seem to be a decent tool for a sharp price and outstanding customer service after the sale. I've read many threads where someone bought something from Grizzly and posted it on the creek with a review of the tool. Most of the reviews were very positive.

I don't presently own any Grizzly tools but I would be open minded to buying from them.

PHM

Rod Sheridan

05-13-2014, 7:41 PM

Delivery doesn't count. Call Felder with an electrical issue and see what they do. Talk you through it on the phone, that's what. Can't say that I know much about General, but I'm guessing they don't have a Geek squad that's going to drive up to your door when you throw a bearing. Sure Felder will send you a tech if you insist, but it ain't free and it ain't cheap.
From Felder website

Your direct line to Felder- our free of charge service hotline

"For competent support for any mechanical or electrical machine problems as well as all operating enquiries, our free of charge service hotline is available from Mon - Fri, 7am - 7pm. For any enquiries outside of these times, please complete a contact form."

Pretty much sounds like Grizzly support.

Well it's news to me that Grizzly will send a tech to your house however I've never had to use their support.

General sent a tech to my house at no charge when I bought a new 650 saw and couldn't get the splitter aligned with the blade. I don't know what they do now, they did close the Canadian manufacturing however I would expect they still need field service people.

Felder Tech has also been at my house.

Why would you expect field service to be free? I would expect to pay travel on warranty work, all costs on after warranty work..............Regards, Rod.

Ken Fitzgerald

05-13-2014, 8:28 PM

I would suggest you are comparing apples and oranges. These companies have different business models.

First you paid a premium dollar for General or Felder equipment. I would imagine they have a bigger profit margin built into their sales prices and thus they can afford to have a more liberal, generous general attitude about customer service.

Grizzly on the other hand, is priced for a different market segment and I doubt they have as high a profit margin and have a different business model. That is the way Grizzly does business. As a customer you need to be aware of what the sellers policies are and be prepared to accept them when you enter into a sales contract with them.

Let's talk about a US manufacturer of fine woodworking tools and their policy. Northfield. Here's their price list: http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/pricelist/pricelist-NMB-2012.pdf

Check out the details for their service work. They will send someone out for $110.00/hour portal to portal plus expenses. In most cases that means travel time is billable too. Shipping damages claims are the responsibility of the consignee.

Most of the posters on this website are hobbyists. Few can afford or justify paying the premium prices for some of the more expensive woodworking tools. If I was a professional woodworker, I would look at this with a totally different attitude.

Not everybody has the ability nor does everybody have the desire to spend hours if not days and weeks researching parts and rehabilitating old used machines. Beyond that, in some areas of the country used equipment isn't as readily available and when it is, it sells for nearly the cost of new.

I have Oneida, Mini-Max, General International, Excalibur, Powermatic, Jet, Delta, Ridgid and yes, 2 stationary Grizzly tools in my shop. When I buy a new tool, I consider the amount of use the tool will see, the importance of the tool and the budget my CFO (wife) has agreed to honor. Based on these and other considerations, I buy my tools.

Grizzly fills an important market segment. The quality of the tools sold by the company today is better today than what it was when they started. Their reputation has improved as a result. That is one of the reasons, the CEO of Grizzly defends it. The company has spent a lot of money and time to improve their products and image.

And customer service? Well, from someone who worked for 34 years in customer service on some very expensive machines, sometimes the customer's attitude determines the type of service they receive. Being aggressive, confrontational and profane is often not to your advantage. Nobody has to take verbal abuse. These types of customers are of the ones that find out the fine print details of a sales contract when the more civil customers find out what a customer service representative is capable of providing beyond those same details.

There is no moral high ground in this discussion. What is right for you might not be right for me and vice versa. Diversity...it's what makes the world interesting.

Ed Loudermilk

05-13-2014, 9:18 PM

Harold, that is the best response I've read / posted regarding this subject!

Michael Yadfar

05-13-2014, 9:18 PM

I didn't really expect this post to hit on such a touchy topic when I created it... I now have almost 100 replies! The imput has been very helpful though

Henry Kramer

05-13-2014, 9:39 PM

Ken Fitzgerald

05-13-2014, 10:08 PM

Henry,

People were comparing Felder and General both of which are companies which typically have higher quality at a much higher price. They aren't manufactured to compete in the same market segment as Grizzly.

Even General now has it's General International line of Asian made equipment which is designed to have a lower price and compete in the lower priced market segment. I'm not sure if they are designed to compete directly with Grizzly.

I only posted the information for Northfield to show that even though they offer service, they charge for it and to show the details of their sales contracts which means you the buyer has to administer any shipping damage claims something Grizzly normally handles IIRC. Each company has it's own methods of operation with respect to service and warrantee. The buyer needs to educate themselves before they buy equipment and take those methods into account prior to a purchase.

And no.....I don't receive any form of compensation from Grizzly regardless of what you may think or read at another website. I just feel Grizzly tools are a good bang for the buck and fills a need for hobbyists like myself.

Obviously more people are satisfied with their Grizzly purchases than are dissatisfied or Grizzly wouldn't continue to be in business.

You don't see people join SMC just to review and brag about happy they are with the Grizzly purchases. There have been a number who joined just to rant their disastifaction, however.

Most people at SMC are hobbyists who can't justify or afford to purchase those expensive machines. Grizzly competes in a segment of the market which fulfills the requirements for a lot of hobbyists like myself. While they may not have the fit and finish of say a PM, they often are priced at a small fraction of the PM equivalent.

Bryan Cramer

05-13-2014, 10:33 PM

Let me ask everyone this: does the wood we work with really care what brand of tool it was machined with?

Steve Rozmiarek

05-13-2014, 10:42 PM

One last thought, most everyone here who has done any woodworking in the last 6 month and owns Grizzly, is being more productive than me and my Felder. I love the Felder, but I'd trade it in a heartbeat for Grizzly if it got me all the woodshop time I wanted. It's all subjective. Harold, Ken and others have put it rather well, there is no one best brand that everyone should own.

David C. Roseman

05-14-2014, 6:10 PM

Charles Coolidge

05-14-2014, 6:16 PM

Well, let it begin with me then. :) I would, and do, prefer mine to a PM66.

David

Ditto, I would much rather have my Grizzly G0696X than a PM66 from any era.

Rod Sheridan

05-14-2014, 6:33 PM

Ditto, I would much rather have my Grizzly G0696X than a PM66 from any era.

I would rather have a Martin or Altendorf however I am curious as to why you want your present saw over the PM66. (Not that I've ever used either machine).......Rod.

Peter Quinn

05-14-2014, 7:05 PM

I've got to state just for the record that my PM 66 table saw never ceases to please and impress me each time I use it. It was a big pill at the time, almost $2200 shipped with router table and long rails. One of the only new things I ever bought. From delicate precise joinery to ripping 12/4 maple, good tool. Best I've ever used? Nah, but its the best one in my shop and the last one I'm likely to buy. Wouldn't trade it for the world....plus if I did not sure I could drag it back out of my basement. I hope my firm endorsement of the venerable PM 66 is misconstrued as bashing any other brands, doesnt incite any misguided mustard envy.

J.R. Rutter

05-14-2014, 7:16 PM

Let me ask everyone this: does the wood we work with really care what brand of tool it was machined with?

Not at all. It is about the human/machine interaction.

Every time you interact with a tool it leaves an impression. A well-made tool is a joy to use and maintain on many levels. Different people have different sensitivities to tools. My dad, for example, always has a project going in his basement and they are pretty impressive ones at that. He has pretty much the cheapest tools that will do the job and they are duct taped together literally and figuratively until they die completely. For him, a shop full of Grizzly equipment would be a huge upgrade, and I hope to help him with that at some point. But he seems pretty immune to the frustration that his current tools would give me, because I enjoy the process itself as much as the finished product. If a nut or screw strips or breaks, or an adjustment shifts as it is locked down, or belts fall apart, or capacitors blow, or switches short, it annoys me. I'm certainly not saying that Grizzly's machines all have these issues, but I have had my share of these problems over the years. In my experience, the machinery at the top of the range is much better in this regard.

So do your research on specific tools from any manufacturer to find the gems that are well sorted out. Life is too short to be annoyed during your hobby time.

Charles Coolidge

05-14-2014, 8:18 PM

I would rather have a Martin or Altendorf however I am curious as to why you want your present saw over the PM66. (Not that I've ever used either machine).......Rod.

Verses an older USA made PM66 the Grizzly has more features, better fence, better paint, its not worn out, dust collection port vs some that don't, another access panel, digital bevel gauge, warranty, easily obtain replacement parts. Don't even get me started on the quality of current PM saws.

Michael Yadfar

05-14-2014, 9:14 PM

Not at all. It is about the human/machine interaction.

Every time you interact with a tool it leaves an impression. A well-made tool is a joy to use and maintain on many levels. Different people have different sensitivities to tools. My dad, for example, always has a project going in his basement and they are pretty impressive ones at that. He has pretty much the cheapest tools that will do the job and they are duct taped together literally and figuratively until they die completely. For him, a shop full of Grizzly equipment would be a huge upgrade, and I hope to help him with that at some point. But he seems pretty immune to the frustration that his current tools would give me, because I enjoy the process itself as much as the finished product. If a nut or screw strips or breaks, or an adjustment shifts as it is locked down, or belts fall apart, or capacitors blow, or switches short, it annoys me. I'm certainly not saying that Grizzly's machines all have these issues, but I have had my share of these problems over the years. In my experience, the machinery at the top of the range is much better in this regard.

So do your research on specific tools from any manufacturer to find the gems that are well sorted out. Life is too short to be annoyed during your hobby time.

I've seen guys work in barn shops with rust coated machines, exposed internal parts, custom made wooden fences, etc. I was actually thinking about buying out a shop like this. There was a guy selling all the tools in his grandfathers shop which were rust coated, beat, and didn't have fences and such, but they all ran. He had an old delta bandsaw, old delta lathe, and old Boise Crane table saw/jointer combo. He was only asking $200 for all. I sort of regret not going for it, the reason I didn't was because these likely all needed to be rebuilt and forget about find ping Boise Crane parts. Point though? Some old guy actually made stuff with these

Cary Falk

05-14-2014, 9:16 PM

It may just be me but I doing ever recall seeing someone post that they would prefer a Grizzly table saw to a quality US made Northfield or a PM66 table saw. I just don't think that there is any comparison so I don't know why so many people are defending Grizzly machines.

While not a PM66, I sold my 1971 Unisaw that I restored and bought a Grizzly G1023RL. I have never regretted that decision. The Grizzly has better dust collection, riving knife, smoother tilt and elevation travel, larger and nicer handwheels, The Shop Fox classic fence is much better than the old Jet lock. Ther rattling of the Unisaw handwheels used to drive me nuts.

I have bought tools and sold them if they didn't meet my expectations. I hate a tool that I have to adjust, align, or fix every time I go to use it. Grizzly meets all my needs so I don't feel that I have to spend 2-10X the money. I enjoy using every one of my Grizzly machines.

I worked in a cabinet shop when I was in high school. I would say that most of my Grizzly tools are nicer that what I used then. The table saw was a Delta closed stand contractor saw with an added 3hp motor. The jointer was a 4" Delta.:eek:. The owner seemed to do just fine with what he had.

Rod Sheridan

05-15-2014, 9:01 AM

Verses an older USA made PM66 the Grizzly has more features, better fence, better paint, its not worn out, dust collection port vs some that don't, another access panel, digital bevel gauge, warranty, easily obtain replacement parts. Don't even get me started on the quality of current PM saws.

Hi Charles, dust collection makes sense, when I went from a cabinet saw to a Hammer B3 the dust collection did improve.

I was actually thinking of a new Powermatic rather than an old one, why do you feel the quality has dropped?

Regards, Rod.

Charles Coolidge

05-15-2014, 9:53 AM

Hi Charles, dust collection makes sense, when I went from a cabinet saw to a Hammer B3 the dust collection did improve.

I was actually thinking of a new Powermatic rather than an old one, why do you feel the quality has dropped?

Regards, Rod.

I have a Powermatic PM2000, its sitting in the corner of my garage disassembled and broken. Quality has gone backwards since they started manufacturing these Powermatic saws in Asia imo vs the US made Powermatics. Lets start with the built in mobile base, first its takes over 50 cranks on the handle to raise the saw up/down that's insane. Second they used cheap ass plastic wheels not urethane and after very little use the wheels have started to fall apart, big chunks fall off. Currently the saw doesn't want to start, I think its the start capacitor. The finish on the cast iron top is no longer that legendary Powermatic mirror finish, the finish is dull and substandard for a saw of this price. During setup I was adjusting the throat plate and my Starrett rule was rocking back and forth, I finally removed the throat plate and found there was a considerable crown in the cast iron table. Fasteners for the front/rear rail are not that great and they only give you 3 bolts to hold on the rear rail. The instructions say you can drill a 4th hole in the right extension wing if you want to and install your own bolt. That's one long rail for only 3 bolts (face palm). They grind a track on the front and top of the front rail where the fence nylon pads ride, its like 80 grit which has chewed up the nylon pads very quickly. The pad on the fence is small, thin, and not replaceable.

Now lets look at my Grizzly G0696X which costs about $700 less and until they lowered the price was well over $1,000 less than the Powermatic. Its 5hp vs 3hp, 12" vs 10", has a larger cast iron top 48 inches wide vs 42 on the Powermatic. Its 2 inches thick much thicker than the Powermatic. The surface finish on the top is not mirror finish but way better than the Powermatic and you can see a reflection. Its absolutely flat. The Grizzly wings are not polished they are about the same dull finish as the Powermatic's main table. The Grizzly rails are held in place by 6 beefy bolts front AND rear there's no drilling your own holes BS. The fence is longer and better made. Fence and rails are epoxy painted. The tracks for the nylon pads are ground much smoother about a 220 finish vs the Powermatic 80 grit. The pads are larger, thicker, and replaceable. Paint not a Grizzly strong suit normally is A+ really nice. Motor cover is steel vs plastic on the Powermatic. There's another access panel on the opposite side which made installing the HTC roller outfeed table easy. Because its a 12" vs the PM 10" the Grizzly has a beefy 1" arbor. It has an electronic bevel gauge. Setup was incredible, I used to be a machinist and I setup saws with dial indicators and accurate tools, there was nothing for me to adjust on this saw blade to miter slots and fence all parallel within .001 from the factory. That's the first saw I ever purchased that was setup that well. Its not even a contest the G0696X puts a serious beat down on the PM2000 and for a lot less money. No built in mobile base so I used a ShopFox and replaced the cast iron wheels with urethane. The one thing I could find wrong with the Grizzly was they applied the stick on ruler on the fence a bit crooked at one end that's it.

289404

Michael Yadfar

05-15-2014, 10:47 AM

I have a Powermatic PM2000, its sitting in the corner of my garage disassembled and broken. Quality has gone backwards since they started manufacturing these Powermatic saws in Asia imo vs the US made Powermatics. Lets start with the built in mobile base, first its takes over 50 cranks on the handle to raise the saw up/down that's insane. Second they used cheap ass plastic wheels not urethane and after very little use the wheels have started to fall apart, big chunks fall off. Currently the saw doesn't want to start, I think its the start capacitor. The finish on the cast iron top is no longer that legendary Powermatic mirror finish, the finish is dull and substandard for a saw of this price. During setup I was adjusting the throat plate and my Starrett rule was rocking back and forth, I finally removed the throat plate and found there was a considerable crown in the cast iron table. Fasteners for the front/rear rail are not that great and they only give you 3 bolts to hold on the rear rail. The instructions say you can drill a 4th hole in the right extension wing if you want to and install your own bolt. That's one long rail for only 3 bolts (face palm). They grind a track on the front and top of the front rail where the fence nylon pads ride, its like 80 grit which has chewed up the nylon pads very quickly. The pad on the fence is small, thin, and not replaceable.

Now lets look at my Grizzly G0696X which costs about $700 less and until they lowered the price was well over $1,000 less than the Powermatic. Its 5hp vs 3hp, 12" vs 10", has a larger cast iron top 48 inches wide vs 42 on the Powermatic. Its 2 inches thick much thicker than the Powermatic. The surface finish on the top is not mirror finish but way better than the Powermatic and you can see a reflection. Its absolutely flat. The Grizzly wings are not polished they are about the same dull finish as the Powermatic's main table. The Grizzly rails are held in place by 6 beefy bolts front AND rear there's no drilling your own holes BS. The fence is longer and better made. Fence and rails are epoxy painted. The tracks for the nylon pads are ground much smoother about a 220 finish vs the Powermatic 80 grit. The pads are larger, thicker, and replaceable. Paint not a Grizzly strong suit normally is A+ really nice. Motor cover is steel vs plastic on the Powermatic. There's another access panel on the opposite side which made installing the HTC roller outfeed table easy. Because its a 12" vs the PM 10" the Grizzly has a beefy 1" arbor. It has an electronic bevel gauge. Setup was incredible, I used to be a machinist and I setup saws with dial indicators and accurate tools, there was nothing for me to adjust on this saw blade to miter slots and fence all parallel within .001 from the factory. That's the first saw I ever purchased that was setup that well. Its not even a contest the G0696X puts a serious beat down on the PM2000 and for a lot less money. No built in mobile base so I used a ShopFox and replaced the cast iron wheels with urethane. The one thing I could find wrong with the Grizzly was they applied the stick on ruler on the fence a bit crooked at one end that's it.

289404

This is exactly why if I buy Asian I would go with Grizzly. I feel like a lot of the "higher end" Asian brands which cost up to 30% more, are really just the same machines with different names. Like some people say, these machines often come off he same assembly line. Maybe the higher end brand may switch in a better part or two, but I'm not quite sure how well it makes up for the 30% higher price. I feel like if I want to get an acceptable machine for a low price, going with the Grizzly, one of the cheaper well known Asian brands, would be the way to go. If I want to get a higher end machine, I would just bump up to the Euro machines. Only issue I heard about the Euro machines are that some have a bunch of Asian parts, they are just assembled in Europe. I don't know how true this is and I'm definitely sure it's not true for all brands, but that's what I heard. And of course there's option C too if I want to take the time to get a good ol' USA made tank

Erik Loza

05-15-2014, 11:01 AM

...Only issue I heard about the Euro machines are that some have a bunch of Asian parts, they are just assembled in Europe....

This is actually quite common. More common than most folks realize. Despite the many, many safety norms that any EU-maufactured machine must comply with in order to be offered for sale (all of which are good things and which benefit the operator...), one that is not required is an accurate declaration of where the parts come from. From a compliance standpoint, it doesn't matter. I could set up "Erik's Machinery Maufacturing" in any EU country, for example, then import entire machines from an entirely different part of the globe, yet still put "100% made in Erik-istan" right on the label and export them without any issues.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Jeff Duncan

05-15-2014, 11:16 AM

This is exactly why if I buy Asian I would go with Grizzly. I feel like a lot of the "higher end" Asian brands which cost up to 30% more, are really just the same machines with different names. Like some people say, these machines often come off he same assembly line.

Not entirely true, possibly for the new stuff, but…. if you go back one generation of Powermatic they were significantly better than the other imports. I'm talking about for instance the DDS 24" double drum sander, much better quality than the Grizzly/Bridgewood/General versions. The Powermatic 26/27 shapers also significantly better than the alternatives. The Powermatic 66 is/was a mainstay in cabinet shops across the country. I've either owned or spent a lot of time using these machines and have shopped the competition from the same time frame. I can also say the Powermatics were better quality than the Delta's of the same time frame, I think Delta made a decent quality machine but are possibly held in higher regard than they probably deserve? My only point is I heard the same mutterings when I was buying those Powermatic tools and I can say for a fact the Powermatics then were significantly better than the competitors I looked at. Though still not completely sure they were the best value, as they were significantly more expensive as well?

Now what I can't compare is any of the current generation of products as I've given up on buying anything new. I've replaced almost every machine I bought new with used and am much more productive, and happier, for it. So it may be true, it may not be? If I were buying new again I know I would want to get my hands on the machines to compare for myself, as I trust my own judgement;)

As far as the good ol' USA made tanks….you can't go too far wrong there. Outside of table saws there's very little new on the new generation of planers, jointers, and other classical machines. Mostly they just keep cutting away cast iron! Only new technology is the insert cutter heads which you can always buy after the fact anyway. Table saws are one place I'd have a tough time with if I had to do it again. It would be hard to choose between a PM66 and a Sawstop, especially with the cost difference! But I might have to go with the SS as they really seem like well built machines, and the safety factor is significant.

good luck,
JeffD

Charles Coolidge

05-15-2014, 11:17 AM

This is actually quite common. More common than most folks realize. Despite the many, many safety norms that any EU-maufactured machine must comply with in order to be offered for sale (all of which are good things and which benefit the operator...), one that is not required is an accurate declaration of where the parts come from. From a compliance standpoint, it doesn't matter. I could set up "Erik's Machinery Maufacturing" in any EU country, for example, then import entire machines from an entirely different part of the globe, yet still put "100% made in Erik-istan" right on the label and export them without any issues.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Mortiser chisels is another example, I searched high and low for chisels for my ShopFox W1743 mortise thinking I'd go with Euro quality chisels...until I found they are now made in Asia and not that great. I opted for made in Japan chisels from Grizzly, expensive but they are very nice. That's another shout out to Grizzly, they scour the planet sourcing stuff like these chisels then import them and make them available to us here in the USA. Grizzly stocks gobs of stuff beyond their machine tools.

Charles Coolidge

05-15-2014, 11:23 AM

This is actually quite common. More common than most folks realize. Despite the many, many safety norms that any EU-maufactured machine must comply with in order to be offered for sale (all of which are good things and which benefit the operator...), one that is not required is an accurate declaration of where the parts come from. From a compliance standpoint, it doesn't matter. I could set up "Erik's Machinery Maufacturing" in any EU country, for example, then import entire machines from an entirely different part of the globe, yet still put "100% made in Erik-istan" right on the label and export them without any issues.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

IMO these former top brands like Powermatic are charging a HUGE price premium and you are not getting anything for the extra money you are paying. I priced 8" parallelogram jointers PM and Grizzly. They look nearly identical yet the PM was like $1,000 more. So I called PM to ask why the PM was better. I was hoping for a USA motor, or at least a Taiwan motor, better bearings, something for that $1,000 extra. I was stunned when they could not give me one example of why their machine is worth another $1,000 vs the Grizzly. The motor...yeah CHINA. I am absolutely willing to buy Powermatic when they have the best machine, my 15" planer is the Powermatic 15HH for example and I know exactly why I chose that over the Grizzly which I owned a few years back. Still it was tough to choke down the price vs the Grizzly, they are not that different. Bottom line I feel like I'm getting ripped off by Powermatic honestly, paying a huge premium for quality that is no longer there.

Erik Loza

05-15-2014, 11:26 AM

This is my perspective, as the guy talking to all of you on the other end of the phone: Country of origin is perhaps less important (at least these days), than having, as the buyer, a clear picture of what your expectations are. Spend a little or spend a lot, it is just as easy to be unhappy either way. I have talked to guys who were disappointed that the Asian-made bandsaw the internet or magazine review said was so great, buckled under the pressure of 1" Lenox Tri-Master, just like I've talked to guys who were disappointed that the cast iron table on their Italian saw was not as "shiny" as they hoped, that the decals were crooked, or that the owners manuals sucked, so how could they possibly learn to use the machines?

No matter where it comes from, the best thing you can do to help yourself is sit down and establish what your own priorities and expectations are before laying down the cash.

Just my 2-cents as always.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Rod Sheridan

05-15-2014, 12:18 PM

Wow, Thanks for the comprehensive explanation, that's appreciated.

I was thinking that Powermatic was still made in the USA.

regards, Rod.

Richard Coers

05-15-2014, 12:24 PM

IMO these former top brands like Powermatic are charging a HUGE price premium and you are not getting anything for the extra money you are paying. I priced 8" parallelogram jointers PM and Grizzly. They look nearly identical yet the PM was like $1,000 more. So I called PM to ask why the PM was better. I was hoping for a USA motor, or at least a Taiwan motor, better bearings, something for that $1,000 extra. I was stunned when they could not give me one example of why their machine is worth another $1,000 vs the Grizzly. The motor...yeah CHINA. I am absolutely willing to buy Powermatic when they have the best machine, my 15" planer is the Powermatic 15HH for example and I know exactly why I chose that over the Grizzly which I owned a few years back. Still it was tough to choke down the price vs the Grizzly, they are not that different. Bottom line I feel like I'm getting ripped off by Powermatic honestly, paying a huge premium for quality that is no longer there.

Did you actually put your hands on the Powermatic and Grizzly jointers? I doubt if the fit and finish were the same. Just looking at prices and pictures on the internet does not explain the quality or finish of the machines. I think we would all agree that a Harbor Freight machine is not the same quality either, but they come from the same factories. There are different qualities and specifications for machines coming from the same factories. I assume that, but haven't been to a Chinese factory, nor looked at specifications. I do refer to the recent test published about the difference between a Grizzly lathe and a Jet lathe. The machines were side by side, and the reviewer talked about rougher edges, raw cast edges, hand wheel on the Jet, and a couple more differences if I recall correctly. We just can't say the machines are identical because they come from the same factory. Well you can, but I will question that logic every time.

Peter Quinn

05-15-2014, 12:44 PM

If you've ever worked in manufacturing you understand that the same production facility is capable of meeting different specifications at the same facility from the same line to meet different price points. I make custom cabinets as part of a team at a small commercial shop. We have high end high profile jobs going into very fussy homes, running over $1200/LF , we have much less expensive stuff with less fit and finish, fast and dirty I'd call it. Solid, safe , but not our ultimate quality. Customer understands what they are getting and what they are paying for, everybody's happy. Is it really so hard to believe that the same plant in Asia could make different machines from the same castings?

David Weaver

05-15-2014, 12:50 PM

IMO these former top brands like Powermatic are charging a HUGE price premium and you are not getting anything for the extra money you are paying.

I do believe you get a 5 year warranty don't you? In an asian machine, if there is service to actually back up the warranty, that's a fairly big deal.

I have had delta and jet tools, and have surprisingly not had to use warranty service on any of it, but at the time I bought my jet saw (a cast trunnion and wheel 18" saw) for $1075 - about 6 or so years ago - I was happy to get a 5 year warranty with it so that I wouldn't feel the need to baby it.

is it critical and would I pay hundreds and hundreds more now given the WMh or whoever the owner of the month is for those tools has really raised the price? No. At the time, though, I was stuck with being able to buy jet for a discount at the local saw shop, or paying for grizzly and paying both tax and full freight cost despite only being a few hours from grizzly.

With all of the asian machines, though, it helps to not have expectations too too high, you get a lot of value if you're willing to work with them and fix any fidgety issues with them (one of the adjustment screw stops on my BS - one of those plastic handled screws so that you can have was made out of what looked almost like white metal and broke, but replacing it with a properly made bolt was not a problem. If I'd have used warranty service, I would've just gotten a part that kept breaking).

David Cramer

05-15-2014, 12:51 PM

Is it really so hard to believe that the same plant in Asia could make different machines from the same castings?

I'm not arguing with you Peter, so please don't take it that way, nor am I saying that you are wrong.

But...if your above statement is true, then why wouldn't Powermatic have told him that over the phone? You'd think that they could give him some reason as to the $1000 price difference, or at least I would.

Respectfully,

David

David Weaver

05-15-2014, 12:54 PM

Here is a fairly accurate assessment (despite being anecdotal) of what I have seen looking at other peoples' grizzly machines vs. the jet machines when I was buying a couple of larger pieces.

Now, this would have turned out differently if the jet machine was older - the older jet machines that I've seen (the ones that are blue) are rougher and not as cleanly made as the lathe in this comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gtgKssFdE4

At the same time, I am the type of user who won't pay extra for little refinements (i'd buy the grizzly lathe out of this comparison because of the $1000 price difference).

Duane Meadows

05-15-2014, 12:58 PM

Did you actually put your hands on the Powermatic and Grizzly jointers? I doubt if the fit and finish were the same.

Cuts both ways, Have you? Many people speaking of what they think may be the case, doesn't make it fact. True on both sides

Ken Fitzgerald

05-15-2014, 1:16 PM

Richard,

Will you admit that you pay significantly more for the better fit and finish on a Powermatic tool?

If you are willing, can justify and can afford the more expensive tools, fine!

A couple years ago, I bought a Grizzly G0490X jointer. Currently it sells for $1275.00. The comparable Laguna $2525.00, PM $2249.99 and though not a true comparable the closest Jet sold at Woodcraft is $1939.99 but it's not a parallelogram bed but does have the spiral heads. It's a jointer. It supposed to make surfaces on wood flat and can make a piece of wood have a known, planned angular relationship between two flat surfaces until the humidity changes and the wood does too as a result.

Is the fit and finish on my G0490X as good as the no PM equivalent? NO.....but that isn't important to me. I live in an arid climate. 3" of moisture less each year we'd be a desert. We have 2 water systems, treated domestic for indoor use and untreated irrigation water for outdoor use. I turned on my irrigation system and my automatic sprinklers earlier this week to start watering my lawn to so it won't go dormant by mid-June. I'm not worried about rust. The wood doesn't care about fit and finish. My jointer works great. After reading about the jointer here before I purchased it, I did remove all the pulleys during assembly and used some blue Loctite on their set screws as they are known to loosen after use.

Beyond that.....if there weren't perceived differences between 2 comparable products why would someone pay more?

To me it boils down a simple subjective decision. It's strictly a matter of personal opinion. Each buyer must educate themselves on the products, the company, the company's policies on warrantee, service work, etc. and then buy the one that best meets each persons own criteria. There is no right or wrong. There is no moral high ground.

David Kumm

05-15-2014, 1:53 PM

We as consumers don't ask for many relevant details when purchasing so we share some blame for mediocrity. If we asked for a standard of tolerence for table flatness for jointers, runout on table saws and shapers, force required to deflect a certain amount for bandsaws, etc, we would have more than fit and finish to discuss when comparing. Dave

bob cohen

05-15-2014, 2:08 PM

I said it before, and I'll say it again, the fence on the PM jointers are decidedly better than those on the grizzly jointers. I know, because I have owned them both. The PM pj882HH jointer also has a 6 inch longer table than the comparable grizzly unit. Any salesperson who didn't know that is in the wrong business. The grizzly has a 3 HP motor versus a 2 HP motor on the PM, so its not like all of the better features are on the PM. Each user must decide what features are most important to him or her. The fact is, though, the two machines are not identical and the same can be said for the PM and grizzly planers, and other tools.

Shiraz Balolia

05-15-2014, 2:49 PM

The PM pj882HH jointer also has a 6 inch longer table than the comparable grizzly unit. .

Actually, it does not.

Our table is 2" longer, motor is 3 H.P. compared to PM's 2 H.P., plus ours comes with a digital readout and is heavier all around. Sheet metal parts are all powder coated. Made in Taiwan in the same factory as the PM is. We applied for a Patent for the digital readout on the jointer.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-x-84-Jointer-with-Exclusive-Digital-Height-Readout/G0495X

We sell many, many models of each type of machine to suit all budgets. In fact, we have the largest selection of woodworking machines under one brand.

Ken Fitzgerald

05-15-2014, 3:02 PM

David,

I would argue in most cases, the manufacturers have set some reasonable expectations are far as specifications. Early in the product development stages, market segment and tolerances for a product are major considerations. When you consider wood is a dynamic material and that 1/64 of an inch is .0156", too many people sweat tight tolerances. Wood isn't metal or some plastics, it's dynamic. Humidity isn't a problem locally for me. In my woodworking it wasn't until a couple years ago while ripping some 3/4" red oak, that I had chance to experience first hand how dynamic wood is and learned to appreciate the splitter on my Ridgid TS3650 table saw. My ripping was releasing some stress and the wood was trying to close immediately as it exited the blade. My blade guard (yes....I'm one of those who use it) has a built in splitter and I was every so grateful I was using it. Yet even those other materials can change and become dynamic under certain circumstances.

Tighter quality specifications leads to higher prices. If you desire tighter specs and better quality it's available today. Just expect to pay a bigger price for it.

Buy Northfield...it's American made and should work well. It's also expensive.

Buy General....it's made by our northern neighbors. It's also expensive. Be aware.....General International...and Excalbur are Asian made and priced for a different market segment.

Different segments of the market allow for quality and price differences so that more people can afford products. Most companies have products to offer within a given range and then several products that sell at different prices within that range.

Generally you get what you pay for. If not, why would somebody pay more for a tool? That isn't always the case but generally it is true.

While I could afford higher priced woodworking tools, as a hobbyist woodworker, I can't justify that all my tool purchases be of higher quality and price. Some tools are more important than others so I buy higher quality for those tools. Thus, each of tool purchases (with the exception of my table saw which was a gift from my wife) were thought out and I bought what I could afford and justify. I own Oneida, Mini-Max, Jet, PM, Ridgid, Delta, General International, Excalibur and a Grizzly stationary OSS/disk sander and a Grizzly jointer.

The requirements for a professional woodworker and a hobbyist are different. Most hobbyists can't justify or afford the more expensive tools. But do hobbyists need those pro tools? I'd argue they don't.

Before I retired the test equipment I used was expensive. My multi-meter was several hundreds of dollars, my oscilloscope cost several thousands of dollars and the specialized test equipment I used with respect to MR scanners cost tens of thousands of dollars. Most of the specialized test equipment was so costly, it was shared among a group of field engineers, kept at a depot and shipped to us when we needed it. All of our test equipment and measuring tools were calibrated annually to a respective National Bureau of Standards certified standard. Expensive! It was necessary because as professionals in the healthcare industry it was required.

Now that I am retired, the multi-meter I use for personal testing hasn't been calibrated since it left the factory in Japan several decades ago.

Michael Yadfar

05-15-2014, 3:11 PM

I understand that a machine coming off the same assembly line doesn't mean it's the same, but I would assume they're very similar with some different parts mixed up. Sort of like GMC and Chevy even though the notable difference between them and tools are they're the same manufacturer, GM, and with those vehicles you got people that swear that ones significantly better than the other. I know some people have different standards of quality and it's value, but I just really don't feel like these changes are really worth 30-50% more. I could be completely wrong because I've obviously never used these different machines side by side, in fact the only new machines I've ever used were a SawStop table saw, AXYZ CNC router, and Milawkee compact miter saw. But based on my research primarily comparing Jet to Grizzly, based on specifications, country of origin, and product reviews, I feel like there are maybe minor difference with Jet. If we were talking a few hundred more dollars, I may go with the Jet, but as far as planers go, we are talking $2000 vs $3000. For all I know maybe Jet does have $1000 more worth of quality, but I really don't see it.

I also saw someone mention that country of origin doesn't really matter. That is true, a Chinese company could call for higher quality materials then say a European company, but I feel that just doesn't exist. If a companies factory is located in China, they're obviously opting for lower production costs which probably says they're also gonna cut down quality of the machine. Plus you got unskilled workers working long days on the machines. As far as buying from the USA, I feel like it's also a moral and social thing too. I'm generally willing to pay 3x more for things I can afford made in the US like shoes, clothes, hand tools, etc. It's important to support our country because continuing to move industry outside isn't sustainable. Unfortunately I don't even think there are any USA power tool brands around anymore, and if they are, I can't afford it

David Kumm

05-15-2014, 3:28 PM

David Weaver

05-15-2014, 3:29 PM

A couple years ago, I bought a Grizzly G0490X jointer. Currently it sells for $1275.00. The comparable Laguna $2525.00, PM $2249.99 and though not a true comparable the closest Jet sold at Woodcraft is $1939.99 but it's not a parallelogram bed but does have the spiral heads. It's a jointer. It supposed to make surfaces on wood flat and can make a piece of wood have a known, planned angular relationship between two flat surfaces until the humidity changes and the wood does too as a result.

That would be an easy decision for me!

I liked WMHs offerings, or whoever owned them, when they were priced just a hair higher than grizzly, but I feel like through all of the sales and the price increases, etc (and this is just my personal opinion) that they abandoned some of us who are price sensitive about tools that we just see as...well, tools and not jewelry. I would, at this point, given the choice between jet and used euro just get used euro, or maybe even new.

Some of the tools that I got were delta about 8 years ago - we know what direction they were going, but I didn't at the time. I wish I would've gotten grizzly instead of them.

Ken Fitzgerald

05-15-2014, 4:51 PM

Ken, I agree to much of what you are saying but while manufacturers may set reasonable specifications, I don't know what they are or how to compare them. I'm an accountant in real life so I tend to look for numbers. There are other ways but numbers are pretty easy. If paying more automatically meant you got more there wouldn't be a Grizzly vs PM discussion. These comparisons are seldom about Felder vs Minimax, or Casolin vs Casadei, but usually among the numerous similar clones on the lower end of the market. Knowing some of the details that diffferentiate the components, manufacturing processes and particularly the specs and how the QC people monitor them would not only separate the herd a little but push everyone to a higher standard. It may increase the prices for the level of quality demanded but someone will always step into the low end of the market so I doubt it would be too inflationary. It would make us all a little smarter though. Dave

David,

I worked with numbers too. Think about adjusting the x-ray tube on a CT scanner....in 1/1000ths of a mm....yes thousandths of a millimeter .... in all 3 planes..... Measured by scanning a built in gauge and then adjusted using two dial indicators in 2 different planes. It can often take 2-4 hours if everything goes well. Make one mistake and take too long, try to go too fast, you get too much heat on the anode of the x-ray tube and you get to take a 6 hour break while it cools down and come back to try again. Not much fun when you start changing the 354 lb. tube at 9:00 p.m. The software doing the analysis won't let you continue beyond the current alignment until this alignment meets specifications.

My point is I was paid to be a professional nitpicker and yet you have to have a reality check when working with something dynamic like wood. You also need to consider the point of diminishing returns.

I am not worried about inflating the market but rather, having the tighter QC actually price some people right out of the market.

Here at the Creek I argued with Steve Gass, the inventory of SS about his petitioning the CPSC to have all future table saws have his safety mechanism or something similar on it for future saws. A lot of woodworkers, hobbyists, can't afford or justify the additional expense. Yes, I acknowledge the safety improvements but also means that woodworking will become a hobby for the wealthier people only if that regulation is enacted.

There are those who argue for buying used equipment. Point blank, there isn't enough used equipment on the market to supply the demand. Used equipment isn't always reasonably priced. Beyond that not everybody has the skills to properly overhaul and adjust those tools. While I have the skills, as someone who worked on customer's equipment 40-80 a week, on my time off, I wanted to work wood not spend many hours troubleshooting, researching parts, ordering parts and then installing and aligning. I bought new...... US, Italian and yes, Asian made equipment.

There were a lot of reasons that caused the woodworking tool manufacturers to purchase products from offshore manufacturers. The bottom line was just that .....the bottom line. It was cheaper and more profitable but when the cost of importing products becomes higher than the cost to produce them here, companies will once again open plants here.

We needed a new washer and dryer. The physical layout of our laundry room is not conducive for a frontloading washer and I have read enough complaints about lack of a thorough wash/rinse in front loaders, when we needed to replace a dead US made Maytag last summer, we bought another brand, top loader, DC motor and motor controller, made in Kentucky and the matching dryer was made in Canada. The factory in Kentucky is just a few years old and its' construction added 3,000 new jobs there since 2010. One example of when it became more profitable to make them locally, they did.

I don't need to preach economics to an accountant, however. You understand.

David Kumm

05-15-2014, 5:52 PM

Ken, I understand about wood being dynamic and diminishing returns but some better information would still be relevant. A jointer table out of flat .008 might not affect anything, but if it's a hollow in the middle near the head the machine will drive you crazy. There are a million threads about which bandsaw will tension a certain blade but there is no way to really know how a specific model deflects at any point in comparison to another. I realize some info will never be readily available but as woodworkers we get almost no machine specifications in comparison to what metal workers receive. Even if the information is not important, relevant, or even useful, it often helps us to sort out what is relevant, important and useful to each of us.

PS I don't think we get real great info from the higher end stuff either. My favorite guys to talk to are the service guys and the people who do repairs. Take a motor to a motor guy and you will learn more about its quality than from a thousand salesmen. Same for electrics, bearings, you name it. Dave

Richard Coers

05-15-2014, 7:55 PM

Cuts both ways, Have you? Many people speaking of what they think may be the case, doesn't make it fact. True on both sides

What's your point Duane? I wasn't buying a jointer, Charles was. My point is that looking at pictures and pricing, without actually touching the machines, can't give you nearly as accurate evaluation as seeing them in person. Am I wrong? Curious why you singled me out?

Richard Coers

05-15-2014, 8:04 PM

Richard,

Will you admit that you pay significantly more for the better fit and finish on a Powermatic tool?

Sure Ken, I'll admit that. But in some instances, it's more. In my case, it was a lower bandsaw wheel that was only partially machined on the face. There wasn't enough cast material there to machine. A partially machined part is not considered fit and finish in my book.

Ken Fitzgerald

05-15-2014, 8:11 PM

Richard...... if you pay less.....expect to get less machining. Machining takes time and costs money. That is how one way they keep costs down. And..it's is part of fit and finish. Every metal part doesn't require a smooth finish to function properly.

Peter Quinn

05-15-2014, 9:12 PM

The requirements for a professional woodworker and a hobbyist are different.

Completely agree. And when a company advertises a piece of equipment as "professional" or "industrial" they had better be prepared to be held to that standard and to expect to be compared to other manufacturers in that field and criticized accordingly. Cant stand the heat...don't add so much mustard.

Ken Fitzgerald

05-15-2014, 9:30 PM

Completely agree. And when a company advertises a piece of equipment as "professional" or "industrial" they had better be prepared to be held to that standard and to expect to be compared to other manufacturers in that field and criticized accordingly. Cant stand the heat...don't add so much mustard.

Marketing terms are generally inflated in every industry not just woodworking tools. I said the "requirements" are different not the marketing terms used to describe it.

One must also be rational enough to realize you get what you pay for.....it's unreasonable to think one should get top quality without having to pay for it. If you need truly "heavy-duty, professional, industrial woodworking tools" expect to pay "heavy-duty, professional, industrial" prices.......

Grizzly fills a market segment that works well for most hobbyists.

Jim Andrew

05-15-2014, 9:43 PM

I want to say that I am glad that Grizzly is out there selling machines at a reasonable rate so I can afford to set up my woodworking shop with some better equipment than I ever dreamed I could. I do have a few machines that are not Grizzly, and they were more expensive, but it is my money, and reading about this equipment on this forum sometimes gives me the fever, and I have to buy something I wouldn't otherwise, but count me as a Grizzly fan. Also a Minimax fan, and a Felder fan. If you look at the Grizzly catalog, it shows pics of some of the best guitar shops, and the Grizzly machines in those shops. So, I guess you don't have to have the most expensive machines to build the best guitars.

johnny means

05-15-2014, 10:19 PM

Michael Yadfar

05-15-2014, 10:20 PM

Now that I kind of think about it... Where would the average hobbiest be without a lower line of machinery? Good point. But there are other "lower lines" out there other than Grizzly, but looking from my perspective on this, Grizzly poses the best value of the lower machines. As said earlier, unless I put some Grizzly, Powermatic, Jet, General Intermational, etc next to each other and base the performance off my specific standards, I can't truly judge. For all I know some little stupid thing may be worth a significantly more amount of money based on my standards, but not yours. Highly doubt that though. I feel my only "shock" will be the step down from using pro equipment all my woodworking life to so,e lower end hobbiest equipment, but as someone said before too, if I have skill, I will overcome

Ken Fitzgerald

05-15-2014, 11:46 PM

Michael,

Even within Grizzly's and other company's market segment of hobbyist woodworking tools there are varying levels of quality and pricing to match. Whether or not the differences in materials, technology, quality and pricing are worth it is strictly subjective. What may be important to me may not be important to you. That's fine. It's subjective. It's a matter of personal opinion/taste.

Whether or not you will find the differences between true industrial/professional equipment and hobbyist equipment significant or unacceptable? That again is subjective. Only you can answer that question and your answer might not arrive at the same answer I would. That's fine.......it's subjective..... There is no right or wrong.

If you are concerned, I suggest you visit a dealer or private seller and carefully inspect each piece you are considering. Spend time and investigate every aspect of the design of a tool, the materials, the fit and finish, the cost, the warrantee, possible service issues....investigate it carefully and arrive at decisions that are right for you. After all, in the end, it's you that must enjoy using the tools. There are several good books out there that describe how to use, repair and buy new and used tools. Do your research carefully. Be an informed customer.

Good luck! Outfitting a shop can be fun!

Curt Harms

05-16-2014, 8:14 AM

Grizzly tent sale in Muncy, PA. tomorrow if you've given thought to visiting Grizzly :). Kind of short notice I know.

Jerry Wright

05-16-2014, 8:32 AM

These discussions are always interesting as they open a window into the many different ways woodworkers approach their craft, and especially how they view the role of machine capabilties in their work. Being a woodworker for over 60 years I have added tools as the needs have arisen and the budget allowed. While I have a very complete shop, none is "top of the line". Still, with ingenuity, I have produced many large, nice pieces.
I strongly suspect that many Creekers, if they accepted the challenge, could outfit a shop with a $500 equipment budget, and build a wonderful cherry breakfront. Think about it!!

Michael Yadfar

05-16-2014, 9:55 AM

Grizzly tent sale in Muncy, PA. tomorrow if you've given thought to visiting Grizzly :). Kind of short notice I know.

I just looked into it. At first I was thinking cool, tools on sale, ill go! But once I looked more into it and found out about people camping out, huge lines, and chances of not getting what I want, I think I would rather not take the day off from work...

Duane Meadows

05-16-2014, 10:03 AM

What's your point Duane? I wasn't buying a jointer, Charles was. My point is that looking at pictures and pricing, without actually touching the machines, can't give you nearly as accurate evaluation as seeing them in person. Am I wrong? Curious why you singled me out?

I quoted you post because you asked the question of having "actually put hands on". I fully agree with you that pictures nor specs tell the whole story.

"Professional vs hobby" doesn't really speak to need either. I can make/sell one set of kitchen cabinets every month or so, and make my living at it(thus it's my "profession") and still get by quite nicely with "hobby" tools.
Probably some hobbiest woodworkers are more demanding of their tools than some professionals.

Also "putting hands on" only really speaks to quality to the degree of the knowledge/skill/experience of that person.

Even asking on a forum doesn't really give a definitive answer... just look at replies in this thread!

Me? I just try to be as informed as I can, make the best choice I can, and most(95%+-) of the time it works out. After ready this forum for a while I can pretty much guess which way the regulars will lean on this type of question, but even that is not any where near a 100%.

I don't put much stock in reviews and only somewhat more in recommendations, they are opinions and most everyone has one! Worst thing I have seen people do id depend on Consumer Reports reviews.. know a lot of folks whom have gotten burned that way!

scott vroom

05-16-2014, 11:37 AM

IME, the vast majority of equipment sold with the "Professional" or "Industrial" moniker is anything but.

Oh really? What determines whether a machine is or isn't "Professional"? There are full time professionals generating income on lower end Chinese tools just as there are hobbyists building weekend projects on expensive European tools. If you think that only expensive tools qualify as "Professional" you are mistaken.

scott vroom

05-16-2014, 11:46 AM

So Michael, after one week and 152 posts what have you concluded?

Michael Yadfar

05-16-2014, 11:58 AM

So Michael, after one week and 152 posts what have you concluded?

My conclusion is that Grizzly offers the best "value" for certain* machines. Are there higher quality machines out there if I want to dish out the money? Yes, definitely. Do I have the money? Yes. But do I want to spend the money? No. From what I understand the whole "value" thing is solely based on opinion because like I said earlier, my definition of "value" may be different than someone else's. I truly wouldn't know if one machine is worth $x amount more than another unless I tested side by side. From general conclusions though, I feel like the value of Grizzly is good, and I am also seeing that their quality has improved. I feel like that while I can't expect it to be a luxury machine, it would still be able to allow me to do quality work. Working in a low quality shop and limited budget, along with the fact that I will only use these as a weekend hobby, I feel like I would rather buy a cheaper machine.

So bottom line, I'll probably go to Grizzly tomorrow to buy a 15" planer. Bandsaw is debatable, I may still buy an old American made one, but I still don't know. Input has been great, and opinions on higher end machines may factor in when ever I decide to upgrade, or maybe I'll be happy with the machines I buy.

Shiraz Balolia

05-16-2014, 12:20 PM

My conclusion is that Grizzly offers the best "value" for certain* machines. ......

So bottom line, I'll probably go to Grizzly tomorrow to buy a 15" planer. Bandsaw is debatable, I may still buy an old American made one, but I still don't know. Input has been great, and opinions on higher end machines may factor in when ever I decide to upgrade, or maybe I'll be happy with the machines I buy.

I would suggest the 15" spiral cutterhead version. Lot quieter and allows you to do figured woods with less tear out. I have tested Bryd cutterheads side by side with the Grizzly spiral cutterheads and you will not see a difference. You want another 10,000 post discussion? - start that comparison. Defenders of both on this forum, but I can have any Byrd cutterhead I want and all my machines at home have the Grizzly cutterheads in them.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/15-3-HP-240V-Planer-with-Spiral-Cutterhead/G0453Z

As for bandsaws - get the G0513X2BF if you are in the market for a 17" one, and don't look back.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/17-2-HP-Extreme-Series-Bandsaw-with-Cast-Iron-Trunnion-Foot-Brake/G0513X2BF

If you want to do a lot a resawing and want to have a really heavy duty 17" bandsaw, then the G0636X

http://www.grizzly.com/products/17-Ultimate-Bandsaw/G0636X

Peter Quinn

05-16-2014, 12:48 PM

Marketing terms are generally inflated in every industry not just woodworking tools. I said the "requirements" are different not the marketing terms used to describe it.

One must also be rational enough to realize you get what you pay for.....it's unreasonable to think one should get top quality without having to pay for it. If you need truly "heavy-duty, professional, industrial woodworking tools" expect to pay "heavy-duty, professional, industrial" prices.......

Grizzly fills a market segment that works well for most hobbyists.

So to combine this argument...ie a rational person understands you get what you pay for....with David Kumms suggestion that a rational person needs numbers to understand his options, then given the only real solid numbers you get from manufacturers is price and size, maybe depth of cut type capacities , you should always buy the most expensive thing you can afford as that will maximize your value position? I have long suggested there is no greater value, or a very marginal one in the cheaper Asian imports in general. Pay more, get more, pay less, get less. The only thing left to figure out in that case is what you can afford and how much do you need. The suggestion that there is some miracle going on where you can get a great value, almost as good as the best for a fraction of the cost is a falicy. And to suggest as I feel some have that to give an honest appraisal even if ungenerous of grizzly machines is somehow bashing is to encourage dishonesty. Most often there is simply no reasonable way for a consumer to compare, none, beyond price, and past experience. jR's previous comments resonate strongly with me. I can work wood with just about the worst junk machines available and have, but I enjoy using excellent comfortable well engineered tools, I enjoy the results part of the process. I don't ever like struggling to set up a machine. So my purchases tempered by budget are guided by a clear understanding of how I like to work and what capabilities are available, and that informs my responses to the central question the op asked.

David Kumm

05-16-2014, 1:01 PM

Is there any info relating to the power requirements of the Grizzly spiral vs the Byrd? I know felder developed their Silent Power to operate better with their smaller motors. If the Grizzly head consumes less power for a given cut it would be a factor in which head to buy. I've a byrd on a small planer and like it a lot but it does limit the depth of cut the motor will allow. Dave

scott vroom

05-16-2014, 1:13 PM

So to combine this argument...ie a rational person understands you get what you pay for....with David Kumms suggestion that a rational person needs numbers to understand his options, then given the only real solid numbers you get from manufacturers is price and size, maybe depth of cut type capacities , you should always buy the most expensive thing you can afford as that will maximize your value position? I have long suggested there is no greater value, or a very marginal one in the cheaper Asian imports in general. Pay more, get more, pay less, get less. The only thing left to figure out in that case is what you can afford and how much do you need. The suggestion that there is some miracle going on where you can get a great value, almost as good as the best for a fraction of the cost is a falicy. And to suggest as I feel some have that to give an honest appraisal even if ungenerous of grizzly machines is somehow bashing is to encourage dishonesty. Most often there is simply no reasonable way for a consumer to compare, none, beyond price, and past experience. jR's previous comments resonate strongly with me. I can work wood with just about the worst junk machines available and have, but I enjoy using excellent comfortable well engineered tools, I enjoy the results part of the process. I don't ever like struggling to set up a machine. So my purchases tempered by budget are guided by a clear understanding of how I like to work and what capabilities are available, and that informs my responses to the central question the op asked.

In other words, value is subjective. I purchased Grizzly because 1) I believed it would get the job done and 2) I value my bank account. Others may purchase Hammer because they value the high quality regardless of price. Etc. on ad nauseum.

I believe that some posters here are confusing value with build quality. Build quality is objective/measurable whereas value is subjective and influenced by many factors that may include but are not necessarily limited to build quality. This is why these discussions go on endlessly. The original question was "How is Grizzly overall as a brand". He didn't ask how Grizzly compared to Euro machines, yet that is where the discussion quickly migrated....as it always does.

Sounds like the OP has made his decision.

scott vroom

05-16-2014, 1:19 PM

To be fair if I were in business to make a living wood working there's not a single machine in my shop that I would use except maybe the Grizzly 12" table saw. Industrial to me is just that, industrial something you would find in a factory, there would be way more CNC machines. Much larger cyclone, larger band saw, bigger jointer and planer with power feeds. My trusty Milwaukee pistol grip router would be at my side though :D

In other words, you don't have one of these in your shop: http://www.grizzly.com/products/51-30-HP-3-Phase-Double-Wide-Belt-Sander/G0487

scott vroom

05-16-2014, 1:32 PM

That's a bit low on power, maybe I'd use it for the finish pass :D

lol...good one!:p

Maybe Shiraz could drop a Chevy 350 block in that baby to compete with the euros.

David Kumm

05-16-2014, 3:04 PM

IF there is a difference I think it would be so small as to be utterly irrelevant with the size motors these machines have. I have owned both Grizzly and Powermatic 15" planers, both had Byrd Shelix heads and neither ever bogged down hogging oak. The geometry of the Grizzly spiral heads is different, lacks the helical sheering cut of the Bryd's but you are still talking dozens of razor sharp carbide cutters. Grip it and rip it man.

I don't have the specifics but if I'm remembering correctly ( big assumption ) Felder had charts on their head vs the byrd for amp draw and it wasn't insignificant. I have no real knowledge here other than it surprising me. Might not be important to the decision making but knowledge is good. Dave

Charles Coolidge

05-16-2014, 3:59 PM

Charles.....let it go.... value is subjective...it's a matter of personal opinion.....there is no right or wrong........

Ken he's the guy speaking in absolutes, that spending more gets you more and spending less gets you less in every case. I'm the guy saying sometimes that's true sometimes that's not true, I have posted an example, I own both machines its not subjective or personal opinion. I would think that's useful information but okay.

David Kumm

05-16-2014, 4:05 PM

Michael Yadfar

05-16-2014, 4:48 PM

I would suggest the 15" spiral cutterhead version. Lot quieter and allows you to do figured woods with less tear out. I have tested Bryd cutterheads side by side with the Grizzly spiral cutterheads and you will not see a difference. You want another 10,000 post discussion? - start that comparison. Defenders of both on this forum, but I can have any Byrd cutterhead I want and all my machines at home have the Grizzly cutterheads in them.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/15-3-HP-240V-Planer-with-Spiral-Cutterhead/G0453Z

The spiral head one was the one I was looking to buy. I actually did start a thread a few weeks ago about Grizzly spiral head vs. Byrd head. It actually didn't get too many replies. Some people actually thought that your planers were actually equipped with Byrd heads. It's not really going to influence my opinion too much, but as some people are asking here, I would find it interesting to know the notable differences which I'm sure are slim.

scott vroom

05-16-2014, 4:50 PM

Charles, I'm asking rather than telling here. The amount of power needed for one head vs the other is all I'm asking about. Felder ran tests and I'm assuming others must as well when developing a new design. Byrd heads consume more power than a straight knife and I assume some spirals will be different than the Byrd. Everyone talks about noise and finish quality, but another benefit is the smaller chip size which requires less cfm from your collector. I was merely hoping Shiraz would let us know if the Grizzly head is more or less efficient than the Byrd and what if any other benefits it might have. Dave

David, not trying to hijack your question to Charles. I've got the G0453Z with the Grizzly spiral head. The only time I recall it stalling was when I was in a hurry and tried hogging off >1/8" from a 14.5" wide QSWO plank. Would a Byrd head have performed better under that same load? I dunno...maybe, maybe not. But Grizzly clearly specs their cutter in that tool at max 1/8 depth of cut and it has never bogged down for me when operating the tool within the Grizzly spec. It's likely that different cutter head designs will perform differently under the same load, but from a practical standpoint as long as my tool performs to the published spec, I'm not sure I'd be concerned. Now, if someone were to prove that a certain cutter design extends motor life etc. I'd sit up and take notice, but I've never seen such a study.

I'm guessing that any difference in operating efficiency between the Byrd and Griz spiral cutters would be insignificant (except to the marketing guys at the company with the higher efficiency head ;)).

Shiraz Balolia

05-16-2014, 4:51 PM

I was merely hoping Shiraz would let us know if the Grizzly head is more or less efficient than the Byrd and what if any other benefits it might have. Dave

I can assure you that the power (motor size) that is on our machines that have the Grizzly spiral cutterheads is more than enough for those machines. As far as comparisons go - we did not notice any change in performance when we tested out the Byrds on our Grizzly machines. If there are any differences, they would not be in the scope of being anything worthwhile to consider. In other words - a non-issue.

The 4 sided inserts we use are made in Germany and are razor sharp. Get any blade or insert dull and you will need more H.P. As many have said here, those inserts last a long time. I know that I have only turned just a few inserts on my jointer and none on my planer in the last 6 years or so. The jointer was because a tiny stone was imbedded in the wood and ......ooops, little line in the wood. The beauty of the inserts is that you don't have to turn or change all of them. Just the ones that are affected. The performance between the Byrd "curved" cutters and the Grizzly square cutters was almost impossible to tell with the naked eye. Under a magnifying glass you could see tiny scallops in the wood made by the curved cutters. Neither one was a finish-ready surface - at least not to me as the minimum I sand all my work to is 600 Grit.

Charles Coolidge

05-16-2014, 5:12 PM

Charles, I'm asking rather than telling here. The amount of power needed for one head vs the other is all I'm asking about. Felder ran tests and I'm assuming others must as well when developing a new design. Byrd heads consume more power than a straight knife and I assume some spirals will be different than the Byrd. Everyone talks about noise and finish quality, but another benefit is the smaller chip size which requires less cfm from your collector. I was merely hoping Shiraz would let us know if the Grizzly head is more or less efficient than the Byrd and what if any other benefits it might have. Dave

Well based on the image of the Felder cutter head I found vs Grizzly and Byrd it seems logical it would consume less power as there are fewer inserts in the cut at a given moment in time. This would explain to a degree the reduced noise as well. I don't know about smaller chips but the Felder seems to have a deep trough for chip evacuation. I always thought my Byrd heads produced small chips, I remember being impressed with the dust sized chips my cyclone was able to capture and keep out of the filter when I emptied it a while back.

I tried to find out what RPM the Felder cutter heads are spinning but they don't seem to list this, that's also part of the equation as is feed speed. Its entirely possible Felder has invented a superior cutter head I don't know. In metal working someone is always inventing better tooling that cuts faster lasts longer and hogs more material. Wood working is just getting its feet wet in this area by comparison, the tooling/cutter choices in metal working is vast.

David Kumm

05-16-2014, 5:23 PM

Charles, I'm not attempting to rank the heads or determine any as superior. Just identify the differences if any. I've got planers with Byrd, Straight knife with onboard grinder, Oliver ITCH, and Tersa. Each has its plusses and minuses and each excells at some things but no one head is superior to the others all the time. Its only about collecting the details to make a decision based on individual needs. As to spirals, it may be more about the quality of the machining than the design of the cutter. In the early days of the Byrd there were posts about inconsistency but you seldom ( or never ) read of those anymore. Dave

Jake Helmboldt

05-20-2014, 11:25 PM

Michael, I own PM, Jet and Shop Fox (Grizzly's retail line), so I'm not partial to any one brand. I had horrible quality problems with the American made fence on the PM table saw. The only thing worse was the pathetic PM customer service. The Jet 1642 lathe has been a great product for the price, and they replaced the motor when it went bad. The replacement was damaged in shipping so they sent another right away. It was a bit over a year old, which would have been a problem with Grizzly's 1 year warranty, but covered under the 5-yr Jet warranty. For a lathe with electronic variable speed I wanted the longer warranty and am glad I got it.

Grizz still needs to improve their lathes, but have continued to do so and their customer service is good. Jet and PM are not, in my opinion, worth the extra money for a comparable piece of machinery. Years ago, yes. Now? No. BUT it also comes down to specific pieces of equipment. Like I said, the Jet lathe was the best for what I wanted to spend, but I also got a great price which brought it closer to the comparable Grizz. I call pure BS labeling Grizzly as a Yugo. Fit and finish on my Shop Fox (i.e. Grizz) machinery is as good or better than the Jet.

I'd call any of the Asians a Toyota comparable. But remember, Toyota has a lot of products in their lineup, just like the woodworking machinery. And some Toyota's have problems, while others don't. All manufacturers have some products that don't measure up to their typical quality.

Ruel Smith

05-22-2014, 10:14 AM

You can go through the Grizzly catalog and spot the very same machines sold by Jet, Powermatic, General, Rikon, and others, in many cases. The differences are in the motors used, some parts are different such as the Grizzly may have a pedestal power switch vs. a wired box on a Powermatic, and I also suspect that Grizzly are "seconds" in quality, meaning the castings may have defects or whatever. However, generally, they are the same machines with minor differences, sold at different prices.

Just to point out a few, check it out:

http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/WMHToolGroup/1791296_main?hei=800&wid=800
http://cdn0.grizzly.com/pics/jpeg500/g/g1033x-d0ac60bfbe5aab6c4d1b04b682e4c2cc.jpg

http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/WMHToolGroup/1791282_main?hei=800&wid=800
http://cdn0.grizzly.com/pics/jpeg500/g/g9984-b3c523a548ea116495746d7500a29b14.jpg

J.R. Rutter

05-22-2014, 10:52 AM

How can they be the same? Those Powermatics are like 50% larger than the Grizzly!

scott vroom

05-22-2014, 11:05 AM

how can they be the same? Those powermatics are like 50% larger than the grizzly!

@j.r. Lmao!

scott spencer

05-22-2014, 12:02 PM

How can they be the same? Those Powermatics are like 50% larger than the Grizzly!

You get what you pay for....larger thumbnails come with a larger advertising budget! ;) :D

Ruel Smith

05-22-2014, 1:15 PM

How can they be the same? Those Powermatics are like 50% larger than the Grizzly!

Oh gawd that was funny! You made my day... lol

Ruel Smith

05-22-2014, 2:26 PM

I know it's been pointed out that Jet and Powermatic have a much longer warranty, but just look at the price differences. The 20" planer with helical cutter (Grizzly catalog shows one that looks dead on a Shellix and Powermatic uses Byrd Shellix) the PM is $4284 at Woodcraft while the Grizzly is $2995. A whopping $1289 less! The oscillating sander is $4979 at CPO whereas the Grizzly is $2995, a full $1984 difference! That's eye opening...

Shiraz Balolia

05-22-2014, 10:22 PM

and I also suspect that Grizzly are "seconds" in quality, meaning the castings may have defects or whatever.

That is just factually wrong!

Dave Zellers

05-22-2014, 11:10 PM

Glad you weighed in on that. That was a pretty silly statement.

To think that Grizzly's business model is to sit around waiting for 'seconds' off of other company's production runs is ridiculous. The volume alone belies it.

Ruel Smith

05-23-2014, 8:59 AM

Well, thanks for straightening that out for us!

Ruel Smith

05-23-2014, 9:02 AM

I did not say it was a fact. I've just seen reports of minor defects from people who have received their Grizzly machines and simply made an assumption based on that as to how they keep prices low. But, people have reported machining defects on other brands too. We probably hear more about Grizzly because they are both affordable and popular.

Mark Ashmeade

05-23-2014, 10:26 AM

I've had a few Grizzly & Shop Fox tools, and generally find them to be excellent. I just HATE the paint job! The Polar Bear and Anniversary versions address this, and obviously ShopFox. But the mainstream Grizzly brand has a far wider range, and I just couldn't face a shop full of that awful green color!

Each to his own, but if Shiraz is looking for feedback, then change the color!

david minnery

05-23-2014, 11:25 AM

Before buying any new tool, I always do a lot of research. I own a small commercial shop, so dependability and value are important.
A few years ago I bought the 1023 TS and 555x BS. I based my decision on reviews, both on forums and magazines and just talking with colleagues.
I also own Dewalt scollsaws(which need repair every 6 months), Jet Tools and a Camaster cnc.
The Grizzly tools I bought were a solid value. I use them every day and the fit and finish is good. I was looking for an American made TS at the time, the Delta Unisaw was the only option. Asian made tools can vary, buyer beware. After years of heavy use, I'm very happy and would get them again.
My .02. We are fortunate to have so many options out there.

ps- I also own Festools, value does not always mean a low price.

Shiraz Balolia

05-23-2014, 12:54 PM

Each to his own, but if Shiraz is looking for feedback, then change the color!

Not going to happen during your lifetime :)

Duane Meadows

05-23-2014, 1:26 PM

Each to his own, but if Shiraz is looking for feedback, then change the color!

Hmm... unlikely to please everybody on that one;). Color is one thing that rarely influences my tool buying decisions!

Ted Friesen

05-23-2014, 2:33 PM

I have these Grizzly machines:

Table saw G0715P,
8" Jointer G0656PX (Spiral cutter head),
17" Band saw G0513X2B (electronic brake)

...and I would agree that they are not Mercedes Benz quality, but for my budget they were the ideal answer and they work very well.

Since new the table saw fence was hard to move and the clamp was stiff. I followed the adjustment suggestions in the manual, but no joy. Finally last week I took the fence in to Grizzly to ask what I might be doing wrong. The salesman tried it on his floor model with the same results. After commenting that they had taken some time to get their floor model set up properly, he finally took their new fence and handed it to me and told me to take it home as it was working well. And what a joy to use the saw now. That's customer service!

I did find that the 90 and 45 degree stops on the table saw had to be adjusted and the blade needed to be squared to the table from their factory settings. But that may also be the case with other brands and since doing that I feel that I know the saw a bit better and will feel more comfortable if it will need adjusting again in the future.

When setting up the jointer I did have difficulty with the fence. It dragged on the table when moving because of roughness in the casting of a mounting slot didn't allow the fence to be raised slightly above the tables. But, some work with a round file fixed that and it works very well now. I love the spiral cutter head. Never had straight blades so I can't say from experience that it's quieter, but that's what I've read. I do like the fact that I'll never have to level cutter blades and I'm just a 90 degree turn away from fresh cutting surfaces. I also chose this model because it had hand wheels to adjust the tables instead of levers, thinking that that would make fine adjustments easier.

The band saw just worked right out of the box. Oh, I did add Timber Wolf blades.

Overall I'm a Grizzly fan.

Ted

Mark Ashmeade

05-23-2014, 3:56 PM

Not going to happen during your lifetime :)

Well, naturally. It's your train set and you've worked hard for decades at it. Not to worry, I'll buy Shop Fox :)

Ruel Smith

05-23-2014, 4:12 PM

You're better off than I am... I'm still aspiring to own some Grizzly products. That's about as expensive as I'll ever need of a machine. Just can't justify anything more expensive as a hobbyist.

Robert Payne

05-23-2014, 5:47 PM

I've kept quiet throughout the course of this lengthy thread and just wanted to add my experience. I suspect most of the folks that have offered less than generous comments don't own a Grizzly tool buy I'm very happy to report that I am very pleased with all of the Grizzly tools that I have bought -- I bought a G1023slx 10" cabinet saw in 2004 and it still cuts straight and true. I sold my first Grizzly jointer to upgrade from 6" to 8" and love the G0490X that I got. I have a G0555 bandsaw with a riser and I guess that is the only average tool I've bought from them -- it is just underpowered for resawing and I use it from smaller tasks which it does well. I also have a Grizzly 6 x 48 belt sander and a benchtop oscillating spindle sander which have more than paid for themselves. I've been to the Muncy, PA facility 4 times. Overall, I would buy them again as they have been solid performers from day 1.

And In the for-what-its-worth department, I like the green color!

Ruel Smith

05-23-2014, 6:02 PM

I'm a fan of the colors! They give Grizzly a unique identity.

Paul McGaha

05-23-2014, 7:07 PM

I think that green paint must be cheaper than that mustard colored paint.

Just kidding.

Just my $.02 but I think we all really do owe Grizzly (and Jet too really) for their contribution to making tools affordable enough to fit out a home workshop.

PHM

Michael Yadfar

05-25-2014, 12:58 PM

Wow I never even knew this thread was still going... Anyway, I don't really judge a tool by it's paint job. I really did like the black and orange paint job they have on the anniversary bandsaws though. I might of said this on the thread here before, but my only issue with my new planer is the quality of the paint. I still gotta contact Grizzly who will probably send me new decals and paint, but the machine has some chipping paint in certain spots with rust underneath and the decals are pealing off. This is what it was like coming out of the crate. It's all cosmetic so I don't care, but I'm sure they will likely send me new paint once I contact them. I still never got to test it because I don't have a 240v outlet in my shop yet, but I will have it ready to go soon, and can't wait. I also got to clean off about ten pounds of packaging grease. I understand it's necessary, but I feel there's too much. The thing I disliked most was the bag with the tools literally had a huge glob of grease in there!

Keith Bohn

05-25-2014, 3:36 PM

Michael Yadfar

05-25-2014, 3:51 PM

I have a long standing curiosity with woodworking machine manufacturers. To that end I'm finding this an interesting discussion for sure but, aren't all the Asian made machines made by Yeou Eir Shuen, Chang Iron and a couple other manufacturers?

If that's true then all the companies like Grizzly, Powermatic, Jet, Steel City, Saw Stop/etal merely importers and price is the only advantage, yes?

If I'm wrong, anyone know the names of the companies that make the machines these companies import?

From what I understand from both this post and people I've talked to before, most these Asian brands come off the same assembly line. However, there are different parts used in certain areas, and some may be higher quality. From what I understand, there isn't any significant increase in quality. Apparently Grizzly spiral heads are imported from Germany, and I believe that's must likely in order to compete with USA made Byrd. That may be the only non China part, but I'm definitely certain all other Asian manufactures have all China parts too. A major issue I've heard about the euro brands is that some contain many Chinese parts, so they could have similar parts to a Grizzly machine. The only thing that's makes them Euro is they're assembled there. With that statement, I do not imply that all Euro companies do this, nor do I a imply that any are the same or lower quality. I still believe most Euro machines are higher quality, but issue is, how much higher? I ended up going with Grizzly because first of all it fit my budget, and as long as the machines can plane wood in some decent fashion, I will be satisfied as a hobbiest

Keith Bohn

05-25-2014, 4:25 PM

However, there are different parts used in certain areas, and some may be higher quality.

I'd heard that also, that there was a culling of parts and the highest quality parts went to the importer paying the most, but where I've only ever heard that was some on some woodworking forum so there's no basis in fact/it's hearsay. I think that's what would bother me the most, not knowing who actually made what/it's impossible to know who's making what. There are no established reputations.

Joe Jensen

05-26-2014, 1:04 AM

In my experience Griz offers a decent performance at a bargain price. My biggest issue with them and many Asian machines is the crating and packaging. To their credit Griz seems to handle shipping damage well, but when you pay your money, take the day off of work to take delivery, and the machine arrives damaged it takes a lot of the fun out of the process.

I'm convinced that bean-counters have done the math and they have concluded that cheap packing and say a 2% damage rate is cheaper than great packaging and a very low damage rate.

I have moved away from the Asian machines to European and as others have stated, they are in a completely different arena than even old iron Powermatic and Delta.

I will also add that the SawStop ICS I purchased new a few years ago arrived in an amazing wooden crate, as did my Felder machines. These companies care about machines arriving safely.

Jason White

05-26-2014, 12:45 PM

My experience with Grizzly is limited to the G1023 cabinet saw I bought a few years ago. I sold it a couple of years ago when I relocated and bought a used Delta Unisaw of the same vintage. The Grizzly was a far better saw! I would not hesitate to purchase another shop machine from them. Great quality and value.

From what I've read and learned so far about Grizzly, I kind of see it as the Toyota of power tools. It will get me to where I have to go, be affordable, and have some decent quality, but not Mercedes-Benz quality. So far I've bought a Jet 6" jointer used and a new Ridgid table saw which I got for 25% off, and I've been satisfied with them.

The only other tools I'm looking for at this time are a bandsaw and planer. Most all the other tools I need except a router and lathe I already have. I kind of got bored and impatient on the used market, and right now I'm highly looking into the Grizzly GO453z Spiral Head planer, and while I'm making the 3 hour trip to their Muncy showroom, I'll probably pick up a GO555 14" Bandsaw. Even while I'm there, I may consider buying a Lathe too, but that's doubtful.

Pretty much I have the money for the stuff, there's no question or issue about that. I'm simply looking for opinions from the woodworkers on Sawmill Creek on Grizzly as a brand before I go out and buy.

Some info about me if that factors into the situation, because people always ask, I'm a young worker with four years of experience in a shop with some of the best tools out there and learned from one of the best in the trade. I'm currently putting together a shop of my own for hobby purposes, so my tools wouldn't see heavy use. Right now it's a shed shop, but I've done heavy research on outside tool maintenance and preservation, and I live in a relatively mild climate. I will build stuff like furniture, and from my prior experience, I always start out with rough sawn hardwood, so my jointer, planer, and band saw will see heavy use. My jointer limits me to 6", so I think the 6" resaw capacity of the 14" bandsaw will be sufficient.