Current Table Saws any safer than older table saws?

[Charles Li]

I'm toying with the idea of buying a table saw (my first one) and have been looking at old used ones. Your money seems like it can go very far in the used market. However, many of these saws are pretty old and don't have riving knives and possibly other safety features. I'm looking in the $500 range. In terms of pure safety (not performance) and of course proper usage, are newer saws any safer? Short of push sticks, it doesn't seem like there's an aftermarket for safety features to add to an old saw. You're committed to the original design. If I go with a current model I certainly lose performance per dollar but do I gain in safety? One used example is a Makita 2708. Thanks for any insight.

[John Sanford]

Essentially, there are only two meaningful safety features on newer table saws versus older ones. Riving knives and the Sawstop brake. While I'm sure you can find REALLY old table saws that don't have any sort of blade guard, open motors that catch fire from dust, and other such Victorian era features, the truth is pretty much all of the contractor and cabinet saws made since WW2 (and perhaps even WW1) have enclosed motors and, for the last 30 years or so, came with a blade guard. Whether a used saw still has a blade guard, now that's a fine question.

Now, a used saw, due to use/abuse, may have other issues that make it more unsafe, such as frayed power cords, lose connections, bad bearings, cracked bits, etc, but these aren't design issues. A table saw, or any circular saw, is a fundamentally unsafe tool unless one is talking about the massive industrial contraptions that cost 6 figures or more. So what we do is combine smart working methods with improved safety features to lower the risk.

Lower, not eliminate. Because there's still a passel of very sharp, hard teeth spinning at thousands of RPM, just waiting to taste some soft flesh. The safest tablesaw economically practical for the small shop isn't being built yet, because for whatever reason the flesh sensing/blade braking capability has not been married up to European sliders.

[Jim Andrew]

I bought a sliding table saw, one of the reasons was safety. I talked to some friends who have a SCMi sliding table saw in a production shop, they said the main reason they bought it was the safety factor. They showed me a piece that had become caught due to a small scrap being stuck between the blade and the insert, and had made the next piece catch and was thrown out the back of the saw. No danger to the operator as he was standing to the left of the table. It is just a safer design than the old style American table saw. Although more expensive than your 500$. Grizzly has a sliding model suited for the home shop. Mine is a Hammer, bought it while they had their winter sale. Last I checked, you could still get the sale price.

[Loren Woirhaye]

I'll add that with a contractor or cabinet saw there is usually a throat plate which can be replaced with a shop-made or purchased one that has a "splitter" aft of the blade at full height. This serves the same function as a ring knife. The throat plate is replaced with one lacking a splitter for tilt-arbor cuts. Tilted cuts are not that common in many styles of work anyway and you may find a miter saw both faster to set up and more convenient most of the time for angled cuts.

Some older industrial saws can be fitted with a ring knife because the arbor actually travels straight up and down. These saws tend to be pretty heavy though. There are riving knife retrofits. One is called the "bolt on riving knife" and as far as I know it works with only some specific older saws.

I'm a slider user as well. They are not often easy to find for less than a couple grand on the used market though so such a saw may be more than you want to commit to.

[Terry Beadle]

I agree with Mr. Sanford that a table saw with a riving knife is safer than any saw with out one. The Sawstop is new, expensive, and safer than most modern and "old" saws.
That being said, there are several things you can do in the use of an old saw that will make it very safe. Nothing is totally safe but being aware, sober, and think before you act will save a lot of finger cuts or throw backs.

One good safety measure is a Gripper but it cost a bit. A good long push stick with a handle to the rear and a leading blade edge will go a long way in keeping one out of trouble.
Using friction sticks on the side and upper surfaces of a work piece is worth the extra minute or two that they take to set up. Keep them handy with suitable clamps and or magnetic bases and you will have almost eliminated 96% of the danger.
Make a cutting sled. There are many designs on the web with demo's on youtube. For example : A Steve Ramsey miter sled. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXLeMVAkSIY

As for old iron versus new, most of the new ones have better production quality control but you have to buy good quality. Buying new junk is still junk. Don't expect a $75 craigs list bargain to cut like a $1000 Grizzly 1023.

The Makita saw you mention is a pretty good saw but it's on the cheap side and has had some issues reported related to wear and tear. A Delta contractor grade table saw is a good starter for a table saw. I recommend a lower cost cabinet saw with a decent fence. Used they go from $650 to $850 depending on age, included items in the sale, and rust/maintenance quality.

Most advice is buy the best you can afford and it will last you and perform better for best results.

This opinion is free...priced right..and with a wish that you are happy, safe and successful !
Enjoy the savings.

[David Kumm]

You can make a substitute riving knife or splitter that will suffice from a safety standpoint if not be as elegant as new. I would look for a used saw with a good fence. A crappy fence that doesn't stay in alignment makes the saw more dangerous than an add on riving knife IMO. Dave

[Charles Li]

Sawstop and Grizzly well beyond my price point. I've read around where some people don't even consider a saw without a riving knife (isn't it required in Europe?). I don't know how comfortable I'd feel about crafting my own riving knife or rigging one vs getting a saw w/ one built in. I guess I find the lack of options pretty odd. I'm new to this and this is my outside perspective. Terry, can you give more details about tools with magnetic bases for safety? Given my budget it would be something like a Bosch 4100-09 vs something much older but after market fence. It seems like a fence is as important (if not more) than the rest of a TS itself and can help make things safer. I've also seen a Delta 36-441B but don't know much about it. Thanks for all the input. Definitely helps.

[David Kumm]

If you find a good saw without a riving look at MJ splitter. The old Delta or rockwell 9" contractors saws were very well built and go pretty cheap. the little bosch is a decent saw and you can always clamp a level to the fence to add a little length when ripping long stock. Needs a thin kerf blade of quality though. You can spend 50-100 pretty quickly to get a good blade. Factor that in. Dave

[Mikail Khan]

Bosch 4100 with gravity rise stand is $569 from amazon. Has a riving knife. Leave the guard in place. I used the older 4000 model for years. My father uses it now.

Link (http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-4100-09-10-Inch-Worksite-Gravity-Rise/dp/B000S5S5CW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399665754&sr=8-1&keywords=bosch+4100)


MK

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I used a Delta, then a Jet for years, neither had a shield or riving knife, and I never even came close to hurting myself. If you trust yourself to be the smartest tool in your shop, you can prevent stupid accidents. I'm not advocating skipping the safety devices, just saying that a careful person is in no imminent danger without them.

Another riving knife type safety device that I particularly like is the throat plate mounted splitter. Just a kerf size piece of something installed in the plate, sticking up a little. Easy to swap the plate out when you want to do a non through cut.

[Charles Li]

I just saw that MJ splitter along with their gripper. It looks like a good system you can use on any saw. I have no experience, but that gripper seems to be one of the best ways to control narrow cuts. You're not kidding these accessories are gonna add up lol.

[scott spencer]

Charles - Are you looking for a full size stationary saw or a portable? I ask because a full size generally represents better value, more upgrade potential, and tend to be safer by way of having more mass, much better stability, and considerably more operating space in front of the blade. I would only look into a portable if you need to stow it on a shelf or move it from jobsite to jobsite.

[HANK METZ]

I bought a sliding table saw, one of the reasons was safety. I talked to some friends who have a SCMi sliding table saw in a production shop, they said the main reason they bought it was the safety factor. They showed me a piece that had become caught due to a small scrap being stuck between the blade and the insert, and had made the next piece catch and was thrown out the back of the saw. ...

This mishap falls into the "be aware at all times" category of safe operation. No doubt a zero clearance throat plate would have made a difference, so as others have stated the best safety device is the one permanently installed between your ears.

[Ole Anderson]

Short answer, YES simply due to the better designs of blade guards and the requirement now for riving knives. As for push sticks, don't use them. Use something like shown below in lieu of a push stick (easily made): You want a device that holds the work down to the table, not just push at the rear edge. By the way, a splitter sure helps, but is a poor substitute for a proper riving knife. That being said I have an older G1023 without a riving knife, but with the support for my SharkGuard left in place, is a close second.

[Frank Drew]

Adding a bit on to what David said about table saw fences, to me one of the best safety features of top quality equipment, either old or new, is their rock-solid reliability/predictability. In the same way that a really sharp kitchen knife is safer than a dull one.

And, echoing Hank and others, I think it's fair to say that most shop accidents happen when the operator's attention wanders, for whatever reason. So if you feel yourself not right there with whatever you're doing, take a break, or call it a day.

[Rod Sheridan]

There are several safety improvements that have happened since the invention of the tablesaw

- blade guard with dust collection ( finger and lung protection)

- riving knife or splitter

- better in cabinet dust collection ( Lung safety)

- 3 function rip fence

- format style sliding table

- blade braking during saw shutoff (Not SawStop type technology)

- flesh sensing technology coupled with microsecond blade braking (Sawstop)

Note that with the exception of SawStop many of the above safety features are a century old, the most recent aside from SawStop is about 50 years old.

The issue is that the North American style saw hasn't really changed in the last 50 years, while other designs have improved.

Many of the above features such as overhead dust collection, and 3 function rip fence can be added to any saw with a bit of ingenuity...........Regards, Rod.

[Charles Li]

Charles - Are you looking for a full size stationary saw or a portable? I ask because a full size generally represents better value, more upgrade potential, and tend to be safer by way of having more mass, much better stability, and considerably more operating space in front of the blade. I would only look into a portable if you need to stow it on a shelf or move it from jobsite to jobsite.
.
I don't think I can commit the space for a cabinet saw right now. Still trying to carve out storage vs workshop.

[Charles Li]

Been reading a few books and watching safety videos. Going to look for a class as well. I don't have any WW buddies but feel confident I have enough resources (like this forum!) to do things right. Probably pulling the trigger on the Bosch.

[Rod Sheridan]

Been reading a few books and watching safety videos. Going to look for a class as well. I don't have any WW buddies but feel confident I have enough resources (like this forum!) to do things right. Probably pulling the trigger on the Bosch.

The Bosch is a good portable saw............Regards, Rod.

[Ronald Blue]

Here is a possibility for you Charles. It will help you decide if you want to invest in more expensive tools and give you an idea what tools you want or need. This link is in the Chicago CL.
chicago.craigslist.org/chc/off/4450243900.html

[Doug Hobkirk]

Or maybe get a track saw system? The material doesn't move, instead you move the saw over the top of the material. Much safer, IMO. I am too poor for a Festool setup, but I am very impressed with how well my EZ system works. I have a "saw table" that's about 4'x2' on top, the track is attached by a pivot at both ends, and the piece to be cut is slipped under the track. The weight of the saw and track effectively clamps the work piece down. I have a longer track and another support "table" when I want to cut large panels, like a 4x8.

Just another idea.

I still occasionally use my table saw. When I do use it, it definitely feels more dangerous.

[scott spencer]

.
I don't think I can commit the space for a cabinet saw right now. Still trying to carve out storage vs workshop.

Keep in mind that a cabinet saw and hybrid take up the same footprint, which is actually less space than an older style contractor saw with an outboard motor. It isn't until you add fences with extra ripping capacity that the footprint increases on either. I'll reiterate that a full size stationary saw is inherently safer to use than a portable.

[Charles Li]

Here is a possibility for you Charles. It will help you decide if you want to invest in more expensive tools and give you an idea what tools you want or need. This link is in the Chicago CL.
chicago.craigslist.org/chc/off/4450243900.html

Wow that is awesome and not far from me! I was trying to find some classes at the community college and village but came up with nothing. Maybe WW isn't as popular as it used to be? That looks like a great place and will definitely check it out. Thanks.

[Charles Li]

Or maybe get a track saw system? The material doesn't move, instead you move the saw over the top of the material. Much safer, IMO. I am too poor for a Festool setup, but I am very impressed with how well my EZ system works. I have a "saw table" that's about 4'x2' on top, the track is attached by a pivot at both ends, and the piece to be cut is slipped under the track. The weight of the saw and track effectively clamps the work piece down. I have a longer track and another support "table" when I want to cut large panels, like a 4x8.

Just another idea.

I still occasionally use my table saw. When I do use it, it definitely feels more dangerous.

I've been doing the standard circular saw jig and kreg rip for sheets of plywood. I'm doing that insulating foam technique to hold the pieces as well which I agree makes it feel safe. Obviously not a real track saw but good enough results with my cheapo circular saw. The only annoying thing is no dust collection. However, I wanted to rip a 2x4 in half and as far as I could figure, the only way I could do that with my current setup would be screwing it to a larger piece. The narrow and smaller cuts seem impossible (or just a bad idea?).

[Charles Li]

Keep in mind that a cabinet saw and hybrid take up the same footprint, which is actually less space than an older style contractor saw with an outboard motor. It isn't until you add fences with extra ripping capacity that the footprint increases on either. I'll reiterate that a full size stationary saw is inherently safer to use than a portable.

I guess when I think cabinet I think it's hard to move. Is that not necessarily the case? I don't need portability in the sense of going to a job site but there will be times it needs to be moved out of the way. Probably more often that I want.

[Cary Falk]

I guess when I think cabinet I think it's hard to move. Is that not necessarily the case?

Not the case at all.I have to move mine every time I want to use it.
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q297/caryincamas/DSC_0210.jpg

[glenn bradley]

.
I don't think I can commit the space for a cabinet saw right now. Still trying to carve out storage vs workshop.
Right, common misconception. Cab saw generally has a smaller footprint than a contractor saw with equivalent capacity due to the motor not hanging out the back. It will be larger than a jobsite saw with a universal motor.

[scott spencer]

I guess when I think cabinet I think it's hard to move. Is that not necessarily the case? I don't need portability in the sense of going to a job site but there will be times it needs to be moved out of the way. Probably more often that I want.

A cabinet saw will be heavier to move than a portable, but they're still pretty easy to move around with a mobile base. Well worth the slew of advantages gained by skipping the portable....other than portability, every aspect of using a saw is generally nicer to do and likely more accurate with a cabinet saw than a portable.

I honestly don't believe that a small portable saw with a riving knife is safer than a full size saw that has a splitter. Consider the "landing zone" where the wood settles before contacting the blade. With a full size saw you get in excess of 12" of operating space. With a portable you're lucky to get half that, meaning that hands are inherently closer to the blade, and there's simply less of a buffer zone. Add to the equation the sheer mass of a full size cast iron saw, vs a portable....it's match of 50-75# vs 250-550#. I don't know of anyone who's knocked over a full size saw, it's much, much easier and more probably to have a 60# saw move in the middle of a cut. I don't feel that modern safety devices overcome the inherent safety advantages of having a larger saw. Add those modern safety devices to a larger saw, and you've got the best of both worlds. I realize there are many workarounds and common sense tricks that a seasoned veteran can do to keep a smaller saw reasonably safe....I'm just stating the case for saving the smaller saws for situations when they're the only viable option.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Strongly prefer the cabinet saw because the motor and such are inside the cabinet so it is not sitting out where it might catch on something (or someone).

I would not use a table saw without a riven knife or something to keep the wood from totally closing on the blade (since even with my modest use I have had that occur a few times). I suppose that to be fair, even with the riven knife, proper feeding technique is a huge help to avoid the kick back while you smack the "stop the saw" button. So, as already stated, no simple push stick.

I am fond of those dust guards and such that keep my hands away from the blade... My hands have hit it at least once or twice, which means i was getting kind of close anyway.

The newer saws usually have better dust collection, which is important for me and where I use my saw (basement).

I opted for the sawstop, which I know is outside your budget at the moment. But, if you are able to somehow gain access to the primary safety features such as a riven knife / splitter, anti-kick back pawls, blade guard, etc. it will make a difference (in my opinion).

[David Kumm]

Don't let mobility be an issue. I'm 60 and move 2000 lb machines every day. 3000 is a deal breaker but 2K is a piece of cake and most steel body machines are way lighter than that. Dave

[scott vroom]

Whatever saw you get, make sure it either has a riving knife or can be modified to accept a riving knife. And as other said, the saw should be tuned up and the fence square to the blade (i.e., not toed in toward the stock).

[Charles Li]

Thanks for all the help. I ended up w/ the Bosch since it has all the safety features I want along with quick compact storage. I knew going in that there would be a price/performance penalty for going this route so I'm just accepting it (begrudgingly heh). Even being able to move a cabinet saw still committed me to too much space at this time was a factor. It will be different when I can get rid of all the kid's toys and get a handle on my new place. Price was becoming a factor too since I'm starting from scratch. Blades, gauges, gripper, etc... added up way too quickly! The last thing I needed was another expensive hobby ugh! On the plus side, I have my first table saw :). I started making some saw dust and loving it. My wife will get some furniture so she'll be happy too. Thanks everyone!

[Andy Pratt]

The riving knife on any decent saw (made with it in mind) truly never gets in the way, and is a highly effective kickback preventer, which is a big deal as it prevents you from not only kickback injury but indirect injury from flailing your hand into the blade during a kickback. I have a sawstop ics and a rigid jobsite saw, both with good riving knives, and have never had to move the riving knife on either for any reason (other than the moot point of dadoes). This is one of those things where you're glad safety technology has caught up with manufacturing and having a riving knife is just a no-brainer now.

As far as guards: Think of the crappy saw guards on 90's jobsite tables saws, then throw all of that thought out and think of what if the guards were so well designed you could just leave them on all the time. That's what you will get with a good brand of modern table saw. Now that the guard doesn't suck you start realizing how nice it is to have something keeping sawdust spray out of your face and an extra safeguard against hands in the blade.

If your budget allows, just get a modern saw, the developments in the U.S. in the last 5-10 years are something you should capitalize on by a new investment, not a used investment. How much is a set of fingers worth? If you need to go used due to budget constraints, read up on the risks and take steps to mitigate them, and above all else set the tool up properly (in either case). There were plenty of safe table saw operators in the 50's using what we would now call "unsafe" saws, they just needed to know/adjust their equipment better than the purchaser of a modern saw does today. If you buy an old saw and have your ducks in a row, you will be safe. The modern saw safety features protect you somewhat from those inevitable times when you do something you know you shouldn't have, or when you had your machine set up wrong and didn't know it.

edit: just saw your last post, glad you went with the bosch, you won't be unhappy with that choice it is one of the two good contractor saw choices right now and has all of the good safety features. Make sure to square the fence when you get it, I recently helped a friend who had just bought that exact saw with his initial setup and the fence was off square by a noticeable margin. That is not abnormal, it is just expected that you adjust for it once it arrives and the manual will give you good directions on how to do it.

[Ellen Benkin]

New saws have riving knives. A real riving knife goes up and down with the blade. A splitter doesn't. Yes, it makes a difference safety-wise.

[scott vroom]

Thanks for all the help. I ended up w/ the Bosch since it has all the safety features I want along with quick compact storage. I knew going in that there would be a price/performance penalty for going this route so I'm just accepting it (begrudgingly heh). Even being able to move a cabinet saw still committed me to too much space at this time was a factor. It will be different when I can get rid of all the kid's toys and get a handle on my new place. Price was becoming a factor too since I'm starting from scratch. Blades, gauges, gripper, etc... added up way too quickly! The last thing I needed was another expensive hobby ugh! On the plus side, I have my first table saw :). I started making some saw dust and loving it. My wife will get some furniture so she'll be happy too. Thanks everyone!

Nice choice on the bosch 4100. I've had that model for several years and use it for job-site remodeling work. The gravity rise stand is without equal IMO for ease of use and convenient storage. One suggestion is to buy a high quality thin kerf blade; the Bosch motor is not on par with a cabinet saw motor and the thin kerf will make cuts easier, particularly on hardwood. I see no reason why, after you get it tuned up and are familiar with it's capabilities and limitations, you can't build really nice cabinets and furniture. Congrats!

[Charles Li]

I was a little worried when the table saw was delivered. The box was beat up and clearly cracked opened at one point (I wasn't home for delivery). The push stick was literally poking out of the box. The packing foam looked OK so I put it together anyway. Like I said, starting from scratch so got some calibrating gear. Although I realize now I might have gotten away with just my square to line everything up. I did get a WWII thin kerf blade and popped it on immediately (have not used the stock blade). To my amazement the blade and RK were dead on. It was actually 90 degs from the table on the stop, +/- .002 from the miter slots, and in line with the RK with no adjustments! The fence was .03 away from the blade front to back out of the box. I'm guessing that's acceptable for this type of saw. I was able to tweak it to -.002! I doubt it will hold that accuracy overtime but it will be my fault if my cuts don't line up. I've read people having a lot less success with the fence. Maybe I got lucky who knows but I'll take it!

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Very gloat worthy! Enjoy your new saw!

[Charles Li]

I just wanted to add some notes about adjusting the Bosch 4100-09 fence. For whatever reason I read a lot on the net that you can't adjust the Bosch 4100 fence but that's not true. I don't know if this is a mixup with the older 4000 or maybe a change in the 4100. Beats me this is my first one. But it's actually in the manual albeit easy to gloss over (yah I actually read the thing lol). Basically, there are two allen head screws on top of the fence close to the locking mechanism. There's actually a third one on top toward the back but I didn't mess with that (nor does the manual say you need to). You can loosen those two closest screws to adjust the fence. They suggest to unlock the fence, push the fence until it is flush with the blade, then tighten back the screws. This didn't work for me as the fence aligns differently when it is locked and unlocked. So what I did was over compensate to get close. But then, to really dial it in, I locked the fence and used a dial gauge to see how far off I was from the miter slot in the back. While leaving the fence locked and gauge in place, I loosened the allen screws, nudged the fence, held it there, then tightened the screws back. So far it's been holding great from a .03 error to a .002 error! A quick way I found to visually check the fence is to place the edge to allow a sliver of light over the miter slot. If it's straight you can see the same sliver all the way down your fence. Even at .03 of an inch I could see the light disappear which prompted me to tweak it.

[Julie Moriarty]

I'm toying with the idea of buying a table saw (my first one) and have been looking at old used ones. Your money seems like it can go very far in the used market. However, many of these saws are pretty old and don't have riving knives and possibly other safety features. I'm looking in the $500 range. In terms of pure safety (not performance) and of course proper usage, are newer saws any safer? Short of push sticks, it doesn't seem like there's an aftermarket for safety features to add to an old saw. You're committed to the original design. If I go with a current model I certainly lose performance per dollar but do I gain in safety? One used example is a Makita 2708. Thanks for any insight.

I have a 20+ year old Delta Contractor's table saw that I bought new. The one thing I always hated was ripping short or narrow pieces. It was scary. A few years ago I bought a DeWalt portable table saw. The riving knife feature was immediately appreciated and worked so much better and safer. Several months ago I purchased inserts for the old Delta that have "tabs" that act as a mini riving knife. It's a quick fix and does make a difference but isn't the same thing.

Bottom line: I would never purchase another table saw w/o a riving knife.

[Greg Hines, MD]

I have used a MicroJig splitter with mixed results. They have comprehensive instructions, but it can be a bit fickle with regard to lining it up directly behind the blade. It has to be installed in an user made ZCI, and only works at 90 degrees. But it is inexpensive, and seems to work well. MicroJig had a new set that has plastic coated metal inserts, two smaller ones than the older, larger, singe insert, but I have no experience with that.

Doc

[Gus Dundon]

I had used two different saw machine , with and without auto shut off feature or saw guards or foot brakes on
band saws, I'm don't feel much assured about my safety. The best way to avoid danger is to know the machine
very well and focus on what you're doing. Considering table saw is most dangerous tool in shops according
to survey.

[Charles Li]

I have a 20+ year old Delta Contractor's table saw that I bought new. The one thing I always hated was ripping short or narrow pieces. It was scary. A few years ago I bought a DeWalt portable table saw. The riving knife feature was immediately appreciated and worked so much better and safer. Several months ago I purchased inserts for the old Delta that have "tabs" that act as a mini riving knife. It's a quick fix and does make a difference but isn't the same thing.

Bottom line: I would never purchase another table saw w/o a riving knife.

Yah, I did have a problem finding used old saws with riving knives. I'm sure I could have been more patient but I didn't end up waiting. The RK has been really easy to work with so far as is the guard and paws on the 4100.