Am I just too fussy???

[Scott Parks]

I've been back to unsatisfied with my Grizzly Saw again. Update, I sent the Forrest blade back to have it sharpened and inspected. Came back good as new. Still not getting a very quality cut with my saw. I was chatting breifly with another SMC member whom had "real world" experience with the saw, and same problems as me. However, maybe I'm being toooooo picky?

Will upgrading to a General, Powermatic, or Saw Stop improve my cutting ability?

I snapped some pics today of ripping some Walnut after installing a brand new MJ Splitter onto a brand new zero clearance insert. Also have a brand new reconditioned Forrest blade with 5" stiffener, and once again put the dial indicator on it. Entire runout was @ .003" inch. When wiggling the arbor by hand, the deflection measured at the perimeter of the blade was about .006".

In the pics, on the left side of the cut, I rubbed a pencil on it to highlight the scoring marks. On the last picture, I hand planed the right side until the scoring was gone. (about 10 passes) The picture is taken showing the transition from the saw marks to hand planed. Even when crosscutting, I get the same results. This rules out fence alignment, (which I have checked and tweaked 1000x, so DON'T EVEN BRING UP FENCE ALIGNMENT AGAIN). It is not the fence alighnment causing the problems... PERIOD...

[Brian Hale]

Thats the same finish i get from my 40t Forrest blade so it sits in the drawer with the other blades that i don't like. Have you tried another blade? I'm buying nothing but Freud currently. They cut slightly better but the price is half.


Where are you measuring the runout at, the blade or the arbor? If at the blade, i'd say your OK. Also, with a 1/8" blade you shouldn't need a stiffiner and may find the cut quality improves without it. Also check the tension of the belts, if they get a bit loose from stretching you'll get a bit of slippage that can effect cut quality. They should be very tight. Also maesure the runout of the flange on the arbor that the blade gets pressed against and see how it looks.

As for being too picky, no, your not. Get the Freud Glue Line rip blade and you be much happier.

Brian :)

[Larry Reimer]

Scott, I'm no expert, I barely qualify as an amateur. I don't think you're being too picky. I get a smoother cut off my tablesaw, and it's a far cheaper saw than you're running. I use a Freud blade. I don't know that what you're seeing though is a blade problem, sure looks to me like something's moving during the cut. If you're confident the stock is being held tight during the cut and not moving sideways, then the only thing left would be movement of the arbor.

[Jim Young]

My first thought is that the arbor may be slightly off. Not knowing what else you have already done but have you measured the runout at the blade by just rotating the blade and leaving the mic in one spot? As for the Forrest blade, I have two 40T and they both leave jointer like surfaces.

[Dev Emch]

It is hard to say what is wrong without debugging the saw. I do know from personal experience with a grizzley metal lathe that the lathe had to be rebuilt, re-scraped and dialed in before it could actually function with the accuracy of even a used south bend metal lathe.

The first thing you need to do is get some articles and tapes on how to tune up and dial in a table saw. This includes using an assortment of dial indicators and shims. Dont trust any setting.

I do know that some saws are made with more accuracy than others. The general 350/650 for example is often dead on in every tolerance. Personally I have found that even 1940s oliver table saws that are on their 4th, 5th or 6th owners are still within factory new tolerances. I am the 4th or 5th owner of my martin T-17 and even though it needs quite a bit of work, it cuts nicer than a brand new unisaw.

These statements are based entirely on empirical experience. Not having any time on a saw stop or powermatic 66, I cannot say one way or another. I have had time on lots of canada made general and can vouch for them as well as olivers and martins.

[Andy London]

No I don't think you are being picky, it certainly looks like it is binding, personally I would not be happy with the results in the image, especially Walnut which I find very easy to rip.

As noted try another blade, I don't use the Forrest blades anymore due to sharpening issues but as I recall they were excellent to use.

Andy

[Russ Massery]

I would check the runout on the arbor flange. I have a grizzly with the same blade I'm getting a much better cut than that. I feel it's the arbor bearings themselves.

[Greg Mann]

I would check the arbor for end play. Three thou runout, I assume you mean axial runout or wobble, isn't that bad, but the arbor may be shifting slightly under load. Set your indicator on the end of the shaft and find some place to push and pull to see if you have endplay. You need to set the base in some way that you aren't flexing the machine because that can fool you into thinking you have more than otherwise. This is part of what Dev refers to as troubleshooting the machine.
We have seen the condition your pictures indicate on machine tool spindles when doing very light passes at high speed. They will leave random swirl marks in the finish as the spindle moves in and out, we're talking miniscule amounts, but they can sure screw up a sealing surface. Sometimes you can't even detect the defect. You spend 10 grand on a spindle rebuild on faith. The aggravating part is the machine will do everything else with no problem, heavy milling (sixty horsepower cuts :D ), drilling, tapping, just not fine finish passes.:(

Greg

[Dev Emch]

Greg...
That reminds me. As you will agree, hardinge makes one of the finest toolroom lathes ever made. The HLVH. I use this lathe all the time. When going to insert cutters, I found that by boosting the speed to about 2000 to 2500 RPM I can get mirror smooth finish cuts. Like it was chrome plated.

But on some items, namely woodworking shaper spindles, there are cases when I get a 5 to 10 hz harmonic going and this leaves a similar type of finish as were all talking about. ITs horrid! By backing down or by increasing the lathe spindle speed, I get out of this harmonic natural frequency state and everything is good again.

Do you think its possible that the saw spindle is not perfectly balanced and that with the blade, out of balance, and speed, the saw has entered into a harmonic oscillation or flutter? A secondary harmonic of 5 or 10 hz would leave such a saw mark.

[Chris Padilla]

Scott,

What exact blade are you using? Have you ever tried a ripping blade? These only have like 24 teeth and the feed pressure is key (along with a sharp, clean blade) to getting very smooth, glue-line rips. Each species of wood will have a different feed speed to getting smooth cuts but I've found that a "good clip" usually gives me the smoothest cuts that need little dressing.

[Scott Parks]

I'm buying nothing but Freud currently. They cut slightly better but the price is half.
Brian :)

HA! Both Freud's I have are even WORSE! I'd be embarassed to show a picture...

Dev, I know how to dial in and tune a saw. Beleive me, I've DONE IT SEVERAL TIMES NOW!

Chris, I choose not to spend more money on blades. This blade should rip a nice cut anyway. (I already have two Frued's and another Oldham blade)

By measuring the run-out on the arbor flange, it will not give me as much of a read out as compared to measuring it on the blade 9" inches from the center of the blade. Out there, any runout will be "magnified" 9 times... Simple trigonometery... On the arbor flange, it is unreadable. However, when pusing on it by hand, I can easily get .006" deflection.

I've gone through everything, and am convinced it is definately the saw. If this is not being too fussy, then the saw HAS GOT TO GO! This is unacceptable, and I am not spending any more of my TIME or MONEY to improve it... I've had it!!!
:mad::mad::mad:

[Chris Padilla]

Scott,

Try that Forrest blade on someone elses table saw if you have a chance.

Here is one other thing you can try:

Using your dial indicator, try and find the spot where the arbor/blade is at its worse. Try shimming the blade at that exact point with some brass shim material or maybe even a piece of paper. Check it with your dial indicator to see if you've improved it. Even if you made it worse, try a cut with it and see if your problem is worse. This will at least set you in the right direction as to the culprit. Like many here, I do think it probably is the arbor.

[Brian Knop]

I have a 40t Forrest blade and the finish is as smooth as glass. It’s as good as the edge from a jointer. I have never bought any Grizzly products for this simple reason; you don’t know what you’re getting! Not to offend anyone but after years of reading threads about Grizzly products to many people get bad equipment. One man’s opinion.

[Ken Salisbury]

Many, many moons ago I learned the key to succesfull trouble shooting is the process of elimination. So - - You don't know if it is the saw or the blade - - right. Just do what Chris suggests and eliminate the blade as the problem. Surely you know someone with a good tablesaw. Put your Forrest on it and see if the results are the same. My bet would be that it is not the blade causing the problem.



Scott,

Try that Forrest blade on someone elses table saw if you have a chance.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

He checked the blade on another saw very early in the process....

[Earl Kelly]

Scott, from the pics it appears the front edge of the blade is culprit, so to speak. In other words the front edge is hitting more than the back. Is this consistent from the begining to the end of the cut? You say it does this with crosscuts with no fence, so this can rule out the fence adjustment. I would take a 6-8" piece and crosscut using the miter fence, do this from both right and left slots. Compare the cut marks, if you have slop in the arbor they should be different, because of the deflection one side should show the back of the blade hitting and the opposit side should show the front edge hitting. I would do this a couple of times to insure no operator errors. If you just have some arbor runout the cut marks should be close to identical, the back and front of the blade would hit, leaving a "x" type pattern.

AS to whether another saw would not do this, I cannot answer. I have a PM with a 5hp motor and I sometimes get unsatisfactory cuts. So almost all the time everything gets run across the jointer before gluing.

[Tim Morton]

I like chris's line of thinking here...could it be something that might be affected by altering any part of your technique? I might send the blade and the wood to grizzly and have them offer an opinion...

[Craig Zettle]

I had the exact same problem with my Delta TS, and lined the miter slot up with the blade, tried forrest blade against freud blade against junk blade, checked arbor runout, changed arbors, installed 3 link belts to reduce vibration, passed nickle test, and I still get the results you are getting.

You know, all cabinet saws are basically a compilation of nuts and bolts, motors and metal. If one guy has a saw that makes glass-smooth cuts while another doesn't, it would logically seem as though there would be something I could do to make my saw like his. I realize that replacing say, a trunion for a heavier one might seem extreme, (for example), but there has got to be a way to unearth the cause of this problem.

One of the mags did a cut comparison a year or so ago, and the Powermatic 66 did quite poorly until the testers called PM and debugged the problem. So they all need tweaked, but this goes beyond tweaking to a point where I feel like I am rebuilding the saw, which I think is wrong.

I would not blame anyone for dumping a saw after numerous trys to get it right. The manufacturers should be on these problems like their jobs depended on it.

[Richard King]

Hello Scott,

I just purchased a new Jet cabinet saw and new Forrest II blade. :) I had the identical marks on my test cuts. :mad: I called Forrest and asked if the marks were what I should expect and they said absolutely not. :confused: He wanted to know exactly how I installed my blade. When I told him that I wedged a block of wood between the blade and the back of the saw table he had a heart attack. :eek: Well alomst. He said that he reads articles where the "experts" tell us guys to use a block of wood and it makes him sick. He said that process will many times bend the tooth where it is wedged against the block. Now that I think about it I agree with him. He told me to send the blade back and he would check it out.

He also advised me that the instructions included with the forest blade suggest that I use a towel folded over enough times that I can hold the blade while I tighten it being sure not to put a lot of side pressure on the blade. He also said not to use a tremendous amount of torque to tighten the blade

[Michael Sloan]

Another factor that can cause this behavior is a misaligned, or slightly too thick splitter. A misaligned splitter will push one side of the board away from the blade, and pull the other side into the blade.

Mike

[Tom Jones III]

Good idea about a misaligned splitter, but wouldn't you get burn marks? In any case one basic tenet of debugging is to simplify the system as much as possible. Take off the splitter and give it a try.

[Greg Mann]

Scott,

I don't know where you are in the trouble-shooting process right now but here is another simple thing to try which will isolate the variables. Since you are getting this condition on crosscuts, try this.

Elevate the blade a reasonable amount and cut about 1/4 inch off the end of a 1 x 3 or so board. Do not run it past the trailing edge of the blade. This way, you are isolating the cut to just the front cutting edge and there is no opportunity for the trailing edge to screw up the cut. If you do the same thing on the right side of the blade you will have two examples to look at. This will preclude any issue about miter slot to blade alignment. Even if you have a bad tooth screwing up one side, it should not screw up the other. It is unfathomanable (sp?) to me that Forrest would send you a blade that could not give you a great cut under at least one of these tests if not both even if you have inadvertantly bent a tooth. If neither of these cuts are acceptable then I would blame some dynamic in the saw. If one is good, then I would blame the blade for the other. If both are good but the cut deteriorates when passed beyond the trailing edge then it is probably alignment. If both cuts are really good keep experimenting by adding variables; fence, splitter, etc. until you get degradation again.

Dev, I have had similar experiences when it comes to machine, cutter, material, fixture, balance, speed, and feed dynamics. That's seven variables in one sentence and I probably have forgotten at least that many more. :rolleyes:
As you know, they can all be interrelated so the possible solutions are infinite or singular. Solving those puzzles is what separates the men from the boys. Of course we all know that is child's play compared to life's great challenges like trying to figure out women. :D

Greg

[Chris Padilla]

Well, Scott, I can understand your frustration but are you really ready just to toss a "For Sale" sign upon the green monster? :) I say if you can get Grizzly to send you a new one or fix your old one, that might be a more economical route to go but it will take time.

The SawStop sure is a mighty sharp looking cabinet saw and would be my choice were I to get tired of my Griz 1023 but I just don't see that happening any time soon. 5 years and it is still going strong....

Good Luck, Scott, let us know how things turn out for you.

[Scott Parks]

Got an email from the Grizz this morning... Rep out of office today, but he will call me tomorrow and "take care of me".

I hope my tone is not hostile to anyone, I'm just frustrated... (don't take anything I type personal)

To everyone whom has responded with troubleshooting "advice", thank you. However, my original question was "Is this cut acceptable?" I don't have enough "cabinet saw" experience to know if this was normal, and just one of those things that everyone just lives with.

I've spent 7 MONTHS troubleshooting and cutting scrap boards. Believe me, I've gone through every suggestion already. This saw has made more TEST cuts than actual projects. I've dissassembled the saw twice, and ALINGNED everything to the .001" with a dial and caliper, and every nut and bolt has been checked tight. (after shipment, there were a few loose bolts).

I don't blame Grizzly, everytime I've talked to them, they said they will make it right (except sending new link belts). Their customer service has been great to me, but I question the "luck" of getting a good machine instead of one that takes 100 man hours of dis-assembly, alingment, belts, etc. etc.....

But here's my dilemma. If I sold or sent back the saw, then I'll be dropping $2k on a General, and quite frankly, my [hobby] woodworking isn't worth that much anymore... Now I feel I'm better off keeping a saw that's paid for with imperfection (because I'll always need a saw) than upping the ante$$$

[Scott Parks]

He said that he reads articles where the "experts" tell us guys to use a block of wood and it makes him sick. He said that process will many times bend the tooth where it is wedged against the block. Now that I think about it I agree with him. He told me to send the blade back and he would check it out.

He also advised me that the instructions included with the forest blade suggest that I use a towel folded over enough times that I can hold the blade while I tighten it being sure not to put a lot of side pressure on the blade. He also said not to use a tremendous amount of torque to tighten the blade

My technique is to put the wrench on the nut, and grab the blade and turn the whole blade by hand to tighten. To loosen, I grab the blade, and smack the wrench with a block of wood. This way, I'm not stressing the blade.

[Scott Parks]

Scott, from the pics it appears the front edge of the blade is culprit, so to speak. In other words the front edge is hitting more than the back. Is this consistent from the begining to the end of the cut? You say it does this with crosscuts with no fence, so this can rule out the fence adjustment. I would take a 6-8" piece and crosscut using the miter fence, do this from both right and left slots. Compare the cut marks, if you have slop in the arbor they should be different, because of the deflection one side should show the back of the blade hitting and the opposit side should show the front edge hitting. I would do this a couple of times to insure no operator errors. If you just have some arbor runout the cut marks should be close to identical, the back and front of the blade would hit, leaving a "x" type pattern.


I get the marks on both sides of the blade. Prior to using the splitter, I was getting the X pattern showing the back of the blade touching when cutting high-tension maple bending back against the blade.

[Tom Jones III]

You asked if this cut quality is normal for the general category of cabinet saws: answer is no
You asked if this cut quality is acceptable: answer is that is only for you to decide.

When I was in a similar situation about 6 months ago, I chose "not acceptable" and bought a PM 66. Other people might make other choices. I made the opposite choice at different times in my life.

[Craig Zettle]

I was wondering how you made out with the saw and Grizzly.

I posted in this thread about my similar problems and this discussion renewed my interest in debugging my Delta. I rechecked all the settings, and the arbor was only .001 deflection, the blade to miter slot was less than .001!, and the Beisemeyer fence was trailing away from the blade by .001 to .002. on the outfeed.

Since I am set up in a shale basement, I have my saw on a sheet of 3/4 ply. To make sure the saw wasn't vibrating on the ply I made wood hold downs and screwed them and the saw to the ply. Then I attached a shopmade featherboard to the fence to hold the test piece down against the table as well as using a featherboard for holding the wood against the fence.

Success!

So if you want to try yet another method, I strongly reccomend either a featherboard or board buddies.

By the way, I was told to check my technique when I feed boards through. As in maintaining rate of feed, not slowing or stopping. My technique leaves a lot to be desired because I have visions of ending up like my father, who has 9 1/2 didgets thanks to a shop accident. They say a little fear is healthy around shop equipment.

[Bert Johansen]

I purchased a used Griz from a friend about a year ago. Installed a Woodworker II ATB blade (with stabilizer) and had the same problems you are describing. After careful tweaking I now get jointer-like edges when I rip.

One big problem with this saw is the fence. If you can afford an aftermarket fence, toss the Griz version. I still have the old fence, and it is necessary to CAREFULLY measure front and rear distances from the fence to the miter slot to get a good cut.

Mytweaking involved taking the top completely off and cleaning and lubricating the trunion gears, tightening the belts, adjusting the stops, etc. Then I re-attached the top and adjusted it until the runout was negligable.

The arbor is true and free of any wobble.

Still have to adjust the fence, but it just takes a few seconds. One day I'll upgrade to a Bessie or equivalent.

Bert

[Bruce Overholt]

I own a Grizzly 1023SL with a Forrest WWII Blade. My shop is just about set up, so I haven't had as much time with it as I would like. None the less, I took my time and very carefully tuned this tabe saw. I have .001 or less runout at the blade, as measured from my miter slot.
But for sure, my first order of business was to get rid of that POS miter gauge, and bought an Osborne EB3. And even harder yet was to get a Biesemeyer Splitter, and getting rid of the Crappy splitter and blade guard that came with my saw. Being a left tilt, it seemed that no one carried the Left Tilt Biesemeyer splitter. 3 times I ordered one and waited, and waited and waited.
On the supplied splitter, I could feel the pawls grab during cuts. It's made from stamped parts and had alot of pivot at the spring and joint.
My next up grade is a Quality blade guard with Dust Collection. Problem is I don't have or need an extension table to mount it to.
Progressively, during the above, my cuts are getting better. Abosolutely great crosscuts, and improving rips, while I'm also considering a dedicated rip blade.
So while I like my Grizzly, I realize exactly where they saved money in order to sell this saw at the price they offer. But thanks to Saw Mill Creek members for their advice in helping me identify the common pitfalls and short comings with table saws in general, my saw needed a little more than just out of the box tuning.

Bruce

[Scott Parks]

Update-

Grizzly rep thinks it is still a bad arbor assembly. They are sending a new one this week. It'll be a few more weeks before I get to installing it.