New vs Old Bandsaw

[Jim German]

I know folks around here are big fans of old iron, so I think I know what the response to this will be, however, I'm looking at buying a ~20" bandsaw and have found three different ones that will all work out to about the same price range. The first is the Hammer N4400. The two used ones are 60's era Northfield 20" and a Powermatic 81. Both look to be in decent shape, but I suspect I'll want new tires and guides (and a VFD).

Anyone have any thoughts on these?

[David Kumm]

I'm not familiar with the PM . Northfield is way more saw than the 4400. The motor might be smaller but if direct drive the slower rpm motors have more torque than their rating suggests so you can't equate a 900 rpm motor with a 1750 rpm on HP alone. If your comparable was a MM 20 and you wanted to do a lot of resawing I might go in the MM direction. I run a Yates Y20 Snowflake but as a small blade saw. Generally in old cast iron the 30" machines were considered the start of the resaw size. Northfield in decent shape makes my call not even close. Dave

[Jamie Buxton]

In general, new saws have more resaw capacity for the same wheel size than older saws. In my use, that's important. Wheel size relates to footprint in the shop, which a big deal to me. There's never enough floor space in my shop. That is, for me, the newer saws get more resaw height while requiring less space.

[Greg Peterson]

Price being no object, I will take new over old iron any day. I would take old iron over a harbor freight tool, but I think modern design and manufacturing processes produce tools that are superior to the old stuff in terms of use and safety.

A twenty inch bandsaw is getting into the industrial equipment area, leaving the hobbyist woodshop behind. A 20" bandsaw in my shop would be pretty awesome, but wouldn't be able to earn its keep.

[Julian Tracy]

Not in the same class of saw, but the 1950's era Delta 14" bandsaw I just picked up runs quieter and smoother than any other bandsaw I've owned, including a 14" Ridgid (heavily modded to run better), a 14" Steel City Deluxe, and a Jet 10" steel framed.

I wouldn't have thought it would be that much better, but it really is amazingly smoother. Obviously. it's mostly the quality of the wheels, balance, mass, etc...

JT

[David Kumm]

Keep in mind the new vs old is somewhat dependant on comparing the same quality level. Better materials and manufacturing processes are more relevant if you are comparing commercial to commercial. Northfield still makes a 20" bandsaw and it sells for about $11K. Machines are not like cars. My stuff from the 1930s still runs as true as new if tuned up. Some new is good, some old. You do have to compare equals though. Dave

[Dennis Nagle]

I love old iron and my band saw is from the 20s. It is a 26" Crescent but the throat height is a couple inches less than the new Laguna 14" saw. I need throat height over depth so if I had it to do again, I'd go for the newer BSs that have more height.

[Bradley Gray]

If you have room a 30"+ vintage saw can be had for a very reasonable price. I have a 32" crescent I bought in 1978. I put new tires on it then and have run it daily ever since with no maintenance other than oiling the babbets. The 32" throat makes it great for roughing out furniture parts.

[Thomas Hotchkin]

Dave has some very good points on Northfield and they still have and sell parts for what they build. Tom

[Jim Matthews]

I think TH raises an important point.

Even though these are simple machines,
replacement parts should be a consideration.

Modern machines of this caliber are like today's NHL;
younger, faster and cheaper.

[Rod Sheridan]

Jim, I have an 81, and I've used an N4400.

No contest for me, I would buy the N4400.

It comes with a nice motor, better guides, a great range of accessories such as extension tables and sanding accessories............Regards, Rod.

[Rick Fisher]

No bad choices in this conversation.

The Northfield would be my choice.

[Jim German]

I swung by the Felder showroom at lunch today. The N4400 seems very nice. The wheels are very smooth with no perceptible runout, the guides look like they would work well, the table is nice and flat and sturdy.

Rod, its great to hear from someone who's used both, I'm leaning towards the N4400.

I don't understand how Northfield charges $11k for a new 20". I'm not against paying more, sometimes alot more for something thats higher quality. I just have a hard time beliveing that its noticeably better than a modern Felder or MM.

[David Kumm]

Cast iron work is expensive and foundries not in Asia are rare now. Even Felder doesn't own their own. Steel is a cheaper alternative and lots of effort has gone into minimizing steels bad qualities and benefitting from its good ones be make steel bandsaws the equal of the cast iron ones. I had an ACM LT18 and while a very good saw- no complaints other than an average resaw machine- it isn't as smooth as the Yates. Both a new Northfield and a new 4400 cut wood just as both a Bentley and a Chevrolet drive down a road. Hard to explain until you experience it, but the price difference isn't a wide as you would think. Dave

[Myk Rian]

Price being no object, I will take new over old iron any day. I would take old iron over a harbor freight tool, but I think modern design and manufacturing processes produce tools that are superior to the old stuff in terms of use and safety.
Agreed. Plastic is much safer and sturdier than iron.

[Peter Kelly]

Price being no object, I will take new over old iron any day. I would take old iron over a harbor freight tool, but I think modern design and manufacturing processes produce tools that are superior to the old stuff in terms of use and safety.Clearly, you haven't seen this thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?215584-English-Machinery-Enthusiast-Jack-Forsberg-s-Story)..

[Loren Woirhaye]

If you can go try the Northfield out.

The Felder is going to feel like an Italian saw. The Northfield is likely about twice the weight.

[Greg Peterson]

Agreed. Plastic is much safer and sturdier than iron.

Old iron doesn't automatically make a tool better than a modern design and construction. I have an old Delta 6" jointer that was a one of the most miserable fettling's I have ever experienced. And even after hours of trying to get this this 'old iron' dialed in, it still isn't quite right (the fence is twisted). I spent several hours devising dust collection that actually worked. All in all, IME, the bargain of old iron exists only if you don't value your time or you would rather fettle machinery than make things.

YMMV.

[Brian W Smith]

New vs old?

We have three different kinds in our shop.Old...New....and custom,proprietary.For us,the general difference between old "classic" examples of a pce and the new stuf is how much user interface there is in any operation being done on that pce.

HP is HP...so take that out of the equation.Rigidity,balance,precision are all the same.Meaning,consider all that when trying to make an apples to apples comparo.

About the only thing that you can't put your finger on(ha) is the usability,some call it ergos.Some pcs don't require any(much).......jamin stock into a big shaper via powerfeeder ain't exactly that hard to manage(obviously after the uber precision of steups/whatnots).So there isn't a whole lot of interface.But try saying that about a lathe.....and that can be wood or metal.Heck,even a DP sees a certain amt of interface.I know the old equipment we have may not have the tight tolerances of new machines but,DANG.....if I have to sit here and run manual's,make mine some classic old iron.


So,contour work on a bandsaw....make it old.

Jammin stock into a resaw powerfeeder,and possibly drilling/tapping holes in it's top,along with DC modifications,infeed/outfeed mounting,etc,etc.....give me new.

[Brian W Smith]

I see Greg's position on "fettle'ing"..........and can sort of agree.But valued time is a whole 'nuther can of worms.It is EXACTLY why you can rehab older equip vs new.But you have to have an apples to apples comparo.Meaning,givin the right circumstances,which amts to ingenuity and forethought,sprinkled with experience......rehabbing/rebuilding is the only way to fly if a shop has ANY chance of acquiring production sized equip.This is for manual machines(non CNC)......you can actually make money at it.But it's not for everyone....and dosen't fit into some shops profiles(lots N lots of metal working skills required).

[Loren Woirhaye]

Northfield is an industrial grade machine... real industrial grade.

Larger Bandsaws have become affordable on the secondhand market. Vibration is one thing you'll see less of in a real heavy band saw. I had a Delta/Crescent which is similar to the Powermatic you're considering. About a 600lb class machine I think, maybe a bit less. It vibrated in a way I could feel but that didn't really make cuts worse - the vibration was just there.

You'll probably be able to balance a coin on edge on the Northfield. The others, maybe not.

Industrial class machinery is real heavy: 2000 lb table saws, 1500 lb. jointers etc. Light industrial is Unisaws, 400 lb. jointers and 500 lb. bandsaws. If you don't want to mess with a) phase conversion and b) owning real heavy and hard to move stuff, maybe it's not for you.

Personally I'd pass on the Powermatic due to the footprint and go with the Italian-style saw or the Northfield.

Crowned vs. flat wheels is worthy of consideration too. Either one works but I've had better luck tracking narrow blades on crowned wheels and prefer flat wheels for wider blades.

[Jeff Duncan]

I go for old on any classic woodworking machine. Specialty machines, like vertical panels saws, or edgebanders for instance, and my opinion starts to change. But when your talking about heavier woodworking equipment it's very difficult to find anything new that's competitive with the older iron. I bought a lot of new equipment, (Powermatic, Delta, and Bridgewood mostly), early on and was never all that happy with any of it. FWIW almost all of it has moved on and been replaced with older, heavier, and better quality iron.

However my opinion is slightly different for light duty stuff. For instance a 6" jointer is pretty much a toy and just cheaper and easier to buy new than mess with an old one. Those type of machines were always built for hobbyists, so always built as cheaply as possible. Same can be said with any of the lighter duty machines. It's just not even relevant to a discussion about 20" bandsaws which were built with professional use in mind. That's not meant to be demeaning or insult anyone, both classes of machinery have their place, it's just that you can't compare one class of machinery to another.

As far as bandsaws go I still run a 20" Delta which is adequate as I don't do a whole lot of bandsaw work. If I were to replace it I think I'd also go towards an older Italian machine as they made great saws. Unless of course I could somehow get my hands on an older German machine…..now that would be fun:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Jim German]

Well, the Northfield went for $750 (well $875 after fees) so I couldn't pass that up. Gonna go pick it up on Friday, We'll see how it is.

If I don't like it I'm blaming all you old iron fans!!!

[jack forsberg]

if your comparing new to old delta get new! new is way better. Old delta is a POS when compared to today or years gone by. Don't compare that consumer grade kit to my old machines that are by far well above anything in this list. I can understand that the wood worker wants to do wood work and not work on machines. what does this mean? you want tools to do it for you ? you want cutter heads you just put in knifes with a screw driver? you want plug and play. Wow your good? all you do is pick tools that do it for you. I am sorry i want tools to do more than whats out there that's why i use old kit.But yes you have to have some skill beyond wood working wood pusher. you have to know what it takes to make good tools.

yes you have to do some machine work. otherwise your just the labor.

[Matt Mattingley]

But yes you have to have some skill beyond wood working wood pusher. you have to know what it takes to make good tools.
Jack do you really know what it takes to make good tools??? Aren't you just an antique collector?

[jack forsberg]

what do you know Matt Matt? your just beginning:p

you know what i mean if every anyone did.

[David Kumm]

Both Jack and Matt are way above the machine herd. Dave

[Loren Woirhaye]

In order to understand quality levels in woodworking machinery one might consider the "pro-sumer" term. At one time machinery was for pros only. It was heavy and expensive and the makers competed to appeal to pro shops alone. Then hobby machines came on the market, modest things in the 1930s when electric motors became more widely available and a jackshaft wasn't required to run wood machines any longer. Gradually those little 6" table saws and 4" jointers became 10" table saws and 6" jointers and 14" band saws. On the pro side you had 18" table saws, 16" and wider jointers, 32" and larger band saws. Later, manufacturers like Delta and Powermatic filled in the space in between with hobby/pro machines that were just heavy enough in the castings to support their expanded capacities. I'm not knocking them, because I don't abuse my machines. Once you start messing around with real industrial machinery, especially grade A stuff like Oliver, Yates, Northfield, Wadkin, etc., you'll see how a vastly overbuilt machine can and will produce a superior result in many operations if used skilfully.

It's a rather academic question at times considering the work volume most of us can turn out working alone. Those of us who like old machine like them because they can work well, can sometimes be got rather cheap, and sometimes have special features one comes to appreciate in doing certain operations.

In the end, unless you do work for profit I'd say stay clear of the industrial machines. They are too much hassle to move around and to sell them can be a hassle too. Aside from that there's the electrical stuff. To me though, vintage machinery is just part of the game and going vintage/industrial is the only way I can afford the machining capacity I have today, which includes a few rather useful pieces of kit bought at as little as 20 cents to the pound.

[jack forsberg]

I
In the end, unless you do work for profit I'd say stay clear of the industrial machines. They are too much hassle to move around and to sell them can be a hassle too. Aside from that there's the electrical stuff. To me though, vintage machinery is just part of the game and going vintage/industrial is the only way I can afford the machining capacity I have today, which includes a few rather useful pieces of kit bought at as little as 20 cents to the pound.


and that there is the truth

[Jim German]

I'm actually pretty excited to recondition this guy. I do woodworking as a hobby because I enjoy it, and I enjoy working on machines just as much as working on wood. My biggest concern is that I'll either have to spend a fortune on parts (either getting replacements or needing to get something custom made) or that when I'm done it won't work as well as a new one would have.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Unless a machine came out of a factory or is in pieces "as is" parts are not as often as issue as some would have you believe, in my experience. A machine that doesn't appear to have been used real hard usually hasn't been. Doing restorations to get a machine to like-new condition is another issue, but getting a machine operating adequately to work wood is usually not a money pit in my experience. Things like foot brakes are sometimes missing or broken and you can probably live without them.

In any case, a Northfield band saw is known to be a good one and the value will hold up if you need to get rid of it, believe me. I sold my Delta/Crescent 20" for $800 a couple of years ago without too much trouble and I'll bet the Northfield is much more refined machine.

[David Kumm]

The parts thing for old machines is way overstated. I would guess that 90% of my 40 or so machines don't have parts available and all could not only be made to run but also could be modified and improved. Sometimes a part or improvement needed to be made but a good machinist can recreate the world in a few days. Electrics can be the worst so it is really the 90s and early 2000s stuff that you have to be careful of and ebay sources much of that. Dave

[Keith Hankins]

The parts thing for old machines is way overstated. I would guess that 90% of my 40 or so machines don't have parts available and all could not only be made to run but also could be modified and improved. Sometimes a part or improvement needed to be made but a good machinist can recreate the world in a few days. Electrics can be the worst so it is really the 90s and early 2000s stuff that you have to be careful of and ebay sources much of that. Dave

Don't know about all, but I've got a 60's era Northfield planer, thats still being sold today with the same design. I paid 1500 for mine and a new one is 15k. They are tanks and call northfield give them the sn and they will give you the history of the manchine! Not saying other choices mentioned are bad, but I'd take the Northfield in a heartbeat! If it's three phase they will help you through that too. I recommend (and they will too) american rotary. Great solutions and they stand behind it 100% and are American Made!

Get the Northfield and you won't look back! I'd love to have one of their bandsaws.

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm actually pretty excited to recondition this guy. I do woodworking as a hobby because I enjoy it, and I enjoy working on machines just as much as working on wood. My biggest concern is that I'll either have to spend a fortune on parts (either getting replacements or needing to get something custom made) or that when I'm done it won't work as well as a new one would have.

First off congratulations on getting the machine. Though I'm now curious about your comments? Was this a blind auction purchase? Generally speaking that is not something I like to do, I've done it, but the risk is WAYYYYY higher. If you got to see the machine and give it a good look over you would already know if there was anything broken or amiss. Bandsaws are pretty simple machines after all. If the machine was all there and in good shape you shouldn't have much need for replacement parts unless you do something bad to it yourself. Bearings, tires, guides, and other consumables can usually be had from plenty of sources other than the manufacturer.

As far as it not working well….assuming she is all there with nothing broken, and your somewhat capable of tuning the machine up, I can't see any reason why she shouldn't work at least as good, if not better than, any other you were looking at.

Personally I'd call what you paid for it a very good deal. I paid about as much for my 20" Delta and I'm sure yours is more machine. But hey, if your not happy with it you can hold me responsible and I'll gladly swap my Delta for your Northfield and make it right:D

[David Kumm]

What Jeff said. I do look at wheels and spindles. Some old saws have Carter wheels which are great but expensive if screwed up. My preference are solid, steel, cast iron, or Aluminum for the top wheel. Dave