which saws to buy..

[Matthew N. Masail]

I still have to get some joinery saws. until now I have been using a single japanese saw, and I'd like to try western saws.

I only have about 180-200$ to spend, and that puts an end to my tool budget. so I was thinking these are the options:

1. buy a bunch of Zona razor saws, spend 60$ and then get 'real' saws in the future, would still leave me with a bunch of decent 'beater' saws.

2. buy a single high quality saw and add others in the future.

3. Buy a couple LV saws for temporary use, because I don't care for the look, and lose a little on re-sale. don't really want to do that.

What would you do, for dovetails and tenons.
having something to cross-cut stock would be nice but I could make do in that regard.

I took a look at Wenzloff and sons saws, they have a nice 'Harvey Peace Carcass saw' that looks like it could be an all-rounder. but I wonder if a small rip tenon saw might be a better one to start with, then later adding a dovetail or cross-cut. having never used a good western saw I have no clue.

Thanks!

[Chris Griggs]

Well, getting a few LV saws is probably the most practical option, but if there not the saws YOU want in the long run then I do something else.

I'd say get one 14" rip saw that you really really want and a decent (e.g. goyokucho) crosscut dozuki. The 14" rip saw will do tenons and large dovetails well and regular crosscut dozuki will do really nice shoulder/fine crosscut work and also rip small dovetails in a hurry.

[David Weaver]

Get any rip tenon saw, 12 inches long, 14 teeth per inch and 10 degrees of rake otherwise filed with no or very little fleam. Use it for everything. If it's harsh near a marked line across the grain (like a tenon shoulder), just cut a bit shy of the shoulder.

The zona saws are OK, but they're not very hard, immediately need to be refiled if they have any significant tooth size, and the backs don't hold the plate that well. The bargain in the zona saws is the fret saw, as well as some of the really super fine saws if you're doing model sized work.

[Matthew N. Masail]

might be an obvious question, and I HATE to sound like one of those guys that asks every unnecessary question under the sun, but since this saw is a little different than average, would you consider this a good choice:
http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/12-carcase-smiths/index.html

[Chris Griggs]

might be an obvious question, and I HATE to sound like one of those guys that asks every unnecessary question under the sun, but since this saw is a little different than average, would you consider this a good choice:
http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/12-carcase-smiths/index.html

I made a 14" sash saw with a very low hang angle like that.

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I use it all the time, and its nice, but a hang angle that low is VERY different feeling at first, and you may LOVE it or you may HATE it. I go back and forth with mine, sometimes I REALLY like the low hang but sometimes if you are doing a cut where you want to apply extra pressure at the toe its less then ideal.

I think something more standard is probably a safer bet.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Nice.... making a saw is quite amazing ! looks like you did an great job, and the handle looks fantastic!

I didn't notice the hang on that 'key carcass' saw until you mentioned it, but it does look less extream than your. has a regular 12" saw too.

[Cory Waldrop]

I really like the LN carcass saw and dovetail saw. You could pick up both saws for about $250. Good value IMO. If you are willing to maybe do some filing and setting, you could look at a vintage backsaw from some place like Hyperkitten or hit up Walt at Brass City Records.

[David Weaver]

might be an obvious question, and I HATE to sound like one of those guys that asks every unnecessary question under the sun, but since this saw is a little different than average, would you consider this a good choice:
http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/12-carcase-smiths/index.html

I suppose it's as good as any option, but you don't need to spend that much money to get a saw that will work well. I've made three kits (from parts) because at the time, that cost about $50 each to get premium saw parts, plus my labor to make the handles, and I can't imagine a saw made by someone else working much better. If money is short, I think that's a good option. Only the first one turned out looking a little funny, the other two turned out great. I made the first one before talking to george, and it's a great great working saw, but style wise it could use a little help because I sanded everything rounded on it.

Another good option is to find an old english saw and file it like you want it, make sure one you find is straight and has teeth in a count you'd want, it's easier to adjust teeth (by far) than it is to file in new ones.

[Chris Griggs]

Its got a fairly low hang but yes it does look less extreme than mine. Also there is more cant/taper to the toothline which makes it a little less extreme too. Read the description of the saw

".. it is seen that the hang of this handle is dramatically lower. This low hang angle has a very real mechanical consequence, as it invites you to get closer to your work, either raising it or by bending at the waist or knees."

Thanks for the compliments on my saw. the tote is based on one old Kenyon totes (well, wenzloff pattern for it). I picked it mainly out of curiosity about how I would like a really low hang angle saw. It's pretty cool and again can be really nice. If I did it again, I likely stick with a fairly low hang angle, but not quite as extreme. Actually, a 2nd look, the saw your looking at really doesn't seem as extreme and might be at a really nice place. Hard to tell for sure though, I'm guessing Isaac can comment if he sees this thread.

[Mike Allen1010]

[QUOTE=Matthew N. Masail;2263019]I still have to get some joinery saws. until now I have been using a single japanese saw, and I'd like to try western saws.

I only have about 180-200$ to spend, and that puts an end to my tool budget. so I was thinking these are the options:

1. buy a bunch of Zona razor saws, spend 60$ and then get 'real' saws in the future, would still leave me with a bunch of decent 'beater' saws.

2. buy a single high quality saw and add others in the future.

3. Buy a couple LV saws for temporary use, because I don't care for the look, and lose a little on re-sale. don't really want to do that.

Hi Matthew,

I think your question is representative of many woodworkers who are interested in increasing their use hand saw's. I think the place most people start is joinery, further Japanese joinery saws are attractive option as there are a number of options (replaceable blades, plastic handles, etc.) that make available excellent performance at a much lower cost than boutique Western back saws.

Personally, I too started my experience with handsaw's 30 years ago using Japanese hands for joinery (at that time there were no real options for new Western back saws) and progressed into restoring vintage Western back saws, buying new Western back saws from some of the Excellent current makers (Wenzloff, Bad Axe. LN, LV, etc.) and ultimately building my own back saws from the excellent components available from Wenzloff, Ron Bontz.

Although I still use Japanese saws for joinery occasionally, I prefer Western back saws because they are easier for me to sharpen and customize tooth geometry for specific tasks and in general I find they work little faster although YMMV. Although I'm certainly afflicted with a terminally case of "vintage handsaw lust", I prefer modern Western back saws because the currently available high-quality 1095 spring steel allows for thinner and longer saw plates than those typically used in vintage saws. This is just my personal preference for joinery saws, for general dimensioning of stock I exclusively use full-size, vintage western saws which I find to be excellent – I haven't had a table saw in 10 years ("slippery slope handsaw warning" – during those 10 years the shop space I saved in getting rid of my table saw has been more than occupied by handsaw's that somehow mysteriously turned into what I can only describe as a "collection" that seems to continually expand far beyond any reasonable needs!).

With regards to your original question, a couple thoughts to consider:

* Matthew, enjoy your posts and your clearly talented. A gating issue in your question is whether you sharpen your own saws, if you do, or have an interest in that, you could acquire vintage back saws probably around the $20 – $40 range on the auction site and sharpen/tune them into an excellent user.

* IMHO joinery saws are such a fundamental tool that the "buy the best you can afford" rule applies. Rather than a compromise that you would ultimately replace I would suggest build your saw nest over time as your budget allows with saws you will keep. Accordingly, I think dedicated rip and cross cut back saws are a better option than a single saw with an "hybrid" tooth configuration. A hybrid saw is certainly a workable option if you plan to have only one joinery saw, however a dedicated crosscut 14 – 16 PPI back saw will leave a significantly better sawn surface on drawer/door parts, tennon shoulders etc. that 9 times out of 10 doesn't require cleaning up with a plane.

* In general, if you're undecided about what size dovetail/tennon saw to buy, consider a larger saw. As your sawing and sharpening skills improve, the larger saw will cut faster and just as accurately as a smaller saw. For example, I find a 12" long rip filed dovetail saw is a better choice than an 8"-10" saw.

* Finally, given the time and effort spent on joinery and the importance of hand cut joinery in the overall enjoyment and satisfaction of woodworking, I would consider a premium Western back saw from any of the excellent saw makers working today to be a great investment; something you will enjoy/use all the time analogous to your best finish smoother plane. If for any reason you decide you don't want to keep it, you can always resell it on SMC classifieds for ~90% of what you paid for it.

FWIW, just my thoughts. I hope these are helpful to you in your decision.

All the best, Mike

[Shawn Pixley]

Mike's advice seems sound. I don't sharpen my own saws and have little desire to start. Nor am i focussed on rehabing saws though I apreciate the work of others. I wouldn't start with a saw you expect to sell. I generally prefer the japanese saws primarily for the handle. I'd like to get a couple of nice gent's saws. I don't see why there is this much animousity to the LV saws. I have a rip and a crosscut that both work very well. My favorite of the western saws is a Bad Axe carcass saw.

[David Weaver]

Couple of points for guys suggesting what matthew can buy or have sharpened or sell - he's in israel. Because of the cost of international shipping, it's probably in his best interest to not buy a saw that he's thinking about reselling, or buying a saw that he's thinking about having someone else sharpen (which is generally a bad idea, anyway for two reasons: 1) it costs a lot to get someone else to sharpen your saw, even if you just have to pay to ship it twice and 2) it is better to refresh a saw periodically than it is to let it get truly dull - and western saws don't stay fresh too long). Unless there's someone there who sharpens saws locally, it'll be in his best interest to learn to sharpen the saws. Sharpening saws for maintenance purposes is one of the easier things to do in the shop. Once you've sharpened 5, it's easier to sharpen the saw than it is to pack it up and take it to a post office. It's a bit harder to sharpen a saw that's a basket case with broken teeth or a big frown, but that's not something good to buy as a first decent saw, anyway.

There are a lot of good vintage saws coming out of england, but with used saws there is always a risk that a saw won't be as straight as you'd expect because the seller doesn't know what pin straight means. That said, I've not gotten one that a seller said was straight that wasn't recoverable, and I've never ruined one, either, despite replacing plates in a couple. I replaced a plate in a saw before I was particularly good at resharpening saws, but of course the new plate had freshly punched teeth that just needed a pass from a file. If I'm going to have to replate, english saws are nice because the older elegant ones use thinner plates and have nice looking handles.

[Mel Fulks]

"Replate". Interesting terminology. I think more like "I better at least save this nice handle". Reminds me of the hammer
that had been repaired over time with "one new head and two new handles"!

[David Weaver]

Well, I don't know if I'd go that far. The intricate brass backs, the vintage saw nuts and the handles are all worth saving. To see some of the old folded backs with their well thought out stamps, etc, they are well worth replating.

My favorite dovetail saw is a replated nurse. The whole thing cost me about $60, and it has a style, a look that even though I made a more crisp looking kit saw, it's not as satisfying to me as the vintage saw.


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Here's a similar saw, would be about $45 (though this doesn't look like it has any need for a new plate).

The old english saws are nice - they're everything that any new premium saw, with much better style than the backs on any of the new saws, with the possible exception of wenzloff's saw backs, which are nice and tasteful and don't look modern, and all you have to do is caliper the plates and you'll find them to be right in the ballpark of the new western saws. The nurse was .018" on the plate - very easy to pull the plate I had out of the saw, get another one (from wenzloff at the time, though I could've filed teeth from spring steel if needed pretty easily), trim the plate to match the pitted plate, plus a little depth and drill holes in the plate and put the saw nuts back through.

Getting a folded back and good saw nuts of vintage style that fit is definitely a much bigger chore, and making a nice handle takes a few hours while replating takes a half hour at most.

Knowing, though, that it takes me less time to resharpen a saw than it does to pack it and drive it to the post office, and maybe less than it takes just to pack it, I just can't endorse sending off saws to sharpen or buying new saws under the assumption that the learning curve is steep. If it's an appreciation for supporting boutique toolmakers, that's something different and it's perfectly fine. If it's for woodworking, really the highest one would need to go to get a saw that's every bit as good as a boutique saw would be one of LN's offerings. If the tooth profile isn't desirable, then that's a transient thing that's easily and cheaply fixed.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thank you everyone for the caring responses. I do indeed plan on sharpening my own saws, for all the reasons David mentioned and I think it's important for a craftsman to know.


Considering that I'm in the midst of rearranging my shop I don't think another project such as refurbing an old saw would be wise, I'd like to get a ready to use tool on this one.


What attracts me to a custom Wenzloff or Blackburn in the sizing of the handle to my hand and I know it will be a top quality tool, straight and good steel.
But I'll have to see how long the waiting list for a Wenzloff is. Blackburn is 3-4 months.
After making many totes for planes, I only now finally have some clarity about what makes a good tote, and I have a promising new (to me) design to try so I know how important the handle is.


I will be in NJ, close to Manhattan most of my trip (leaving 15th of May, yay!), so I can easily go to Brooklyn to try the Gramercy sash saw handle on for size. just wish it was a little lower in cost.

[David Weaver]

Thank you everyone for the caring responses. I do indeed plan on sharpening my own saws, for all the reasons David mentioned and I think it's important for a craftsman to know.



yeah, I apologize on being so opinionated about that, but I think it's worth stating - there are lots of difficult things to do in the shop, but sharpening a saw competently to a reasonable level is not one of them. Sharpening it so it looks like one of daryl weir's demonstrations of tooth height and geometric perfection can be a bit more difficult, but that stuff is not necessary to have a good, fast, clean cutting saw.

I forgot that you're coming over here, you'll be able to get your hands on saws. I think, too, the 12" saw that does all everything is a good place to start. It can be more aggressively filed rip later if you get saws to complement it.

[James Conrad]

I'd go with a pair of the LN carcass saws and have them shipped to where you will be staying in NJ, and some files too. It would give you a chance to try them out and if you don't like them, ship them back before you leave. The pair is a little over your budget, but that would be my suggestion as I'm not a fan of a do-all filed saw.

[Pedro Reyes]

I suppose it's as good as any option, but you don't need to spend that much money to get a saw that will work well. I've made three kits (from parts) because at the time, that cost about $50 each to get premium saw parts, plus my labor to make the handles, and I can't imagine a saw made by someone else working much better. If money is short, I think that's a good option. Only the first one turned out looking a little funny, the other two turned out great. I made the first one before talking to george, and it's a great great working saw, but style wise it could use a little help because I sanded everything rounded on it.

Another good option is to find an old english saw and file it like you want it, make sure one you find is straight and has teeth in a count you'd want, it's easier to adjust teeth (by far) than it is to file in new ones.

David, if you don't mind sharing. When you buy these parts (I'm looking at Blackburn or TGIAG), what do you do to the plates? I mean do they need heat treatment or simply setting the teeth and sharpening? I think I could put a spine and shape and attach a handle, but not sure about the heat treating.

Pedro

[Matthew N. Masail]

Pedro, check this out:
http://www.blackburntools.com/blog/saw-build-along-index/
If you can pull it off and get the saw straight (seems not too hard but not for me right now) it's a top quality saw plate and back for 50$.


David, I greatly appreciate your posts, they oozz experience, and honest practicality. I Imagine filing a saw isn't difficult at all, just some patience and concentration, I also don't care to make the saw look like a machine cut duzoki, as long as it looks cleanly done enough, and more importantly that it's great to use. now just to decide which to get. .

looking at the LN, they offer a 12" carcass filed rip at 15ppi or 10ppi, I guess getting the 10ppi and a crosscut version is a good idea. would 10ppi be too coarse for dovetails? would 15 be too little for tenons? :o

but isn't saw with only 2 1\4 inch depth too small less versatile than a 3inch carcass saw ?

[Chris Griggs]

David, if you don't mind sharing. When you buy these parts (I'm looking at Blackburn or TGIAG), what do you do to the plates? I mean do they need heat treatment or simply setting the teeth and sharpening? I think I could put a spine and shape and attach a handle, but not sure about the heat treating.

Pedro

They just need setting and sharpening. Building saw from parts is great! Give it a go!

I really want to build more, but haven't because I've still been holding out hope that Wenzloff will offer folded backs again some day. I should probably just order some stuff from Isaac (Blackburn). Its quality stuff and the prices are good, but I errr, I don't know, maybe I'll hold out hope for folded backs a little longer.

[David Weaver]

They just need setting and sharpening.


Yeah, that's pretty much it. you have to drill them for where your handles/screws are, which requires a good quality bit or a carbide bit, and you might have to trim a corner off of them to make them match an old plate and fit a handle, but those are things that take very little time.

I agree with Chris, I've gotten four kits from wenzloff, but he doesn't have all of the stuff any longer. The parts were so cheap that it cost me about $50 total to build each out of premium parts, plus my personal time, mostly in shaping the handles. the first two kits I got from mike, I got fully finished backs, too. He didn't pay himself correctly in that whole situation, in my opinion. I couldn't have gotten the stock to make those parts any cheaper, though I know he could - just a little bit - because he buys stuff in quantity.

At any rate, do yourself a favor and find a saw with a thin back, there's no reason to replate a saw like a disston with a .024 or .025 back. That's like reupholstering an ikea chair or something, you're still left with an underwhelming setup when done.

[James Conrad]

looking at the LN, they offer a 12" carcass filed rip at 15ppi or 10ppi, I guess getting the 10ppi and a crosscut version is a good idea. would 10ppi be too coarse for dovetails? would 15 be too little for tenons? :o

but isn't saw with only 2 1\4 inch depth too small less versatile than a 3inch carcass saw ?

10 ppi could be ok to also serve for a DT saw, LN doesn't set there saws up aggressively IMOP. But, what size projects do you see yourself making? Typical joinery is 1/4" - 1 1/2" cuts which those would serve you well for. If you are not in a hurry building saws is a great way to go as others have suggested, you'll get what you want and learn a ton in the process. Ron Bontz is another source for kits, super nice guy to boot.

[David Weaver]

Pedro, check this out:
http://www.blackburntools.com/blog/saw-build-along-index/
If you can pull it off and get the saw straight (seems not too hard but not for me right now) it's a top quality saw plate and back for 50$.


David, I greatly appreciate your posts, they oozz experience, and honest practicality. I Imagine filing a saw isn't difficult at all, just some patience and concentration, I also don't care to make the saw look like a machine cut duzoki, as long as it looks cleanly done enough, and more importantly that it's great to use. now just to decide which to get. .

looking at the LN, they offer a 12" carcass filed rip at 15ppi or 10ppi, I guess getting the 10ppi and a crosscut version is a good idea. would 10ppi be too coarse for dovetails? would 15 be too little for tenons? :o

but isn't saw with only 2 1\4 inch depth too small less versatile than a 3inch carcass saw ?

Of those two, I'd get the 15 point saw and file it aggressively if you felt like it was too slow. Cutting small stuff with a 10 point saw isn't always that much fun, and if you set it up so that it ripped well at 10, it would be tough to use.

I guess I don't really like any of the offerings LN has if you're going to have just one saw, which is something that I think has merit if you're working mostly on furniture sized stuff (and not big tenons, and not tiny box dovetails). Looking around quickly, it looks like the carcass saws are all about 11 inches long. Assuming you're going to use something else to crosscut pieces of any size (like drawer ends, etc), I guess it doesn't matter if it's a bit small, you can always file it a little aggressive to make up for that.

[Chris Griggs]

FWIW, the first back saw I ever got was the 10ppi version of that saw. It was a great saw but not the easiest to learn fine work with, so I returned it and got the 15ppi saw. I LOVED that saw and used it constantly for several years. Only sold it and after I made my own saws. I think now that I'm a much better sawyer I might like the 10ppi better, but I think for fine joinery, especially if you are sorta new the sawing the 15ppi with an aggressive filing is the way to go...I ended up filing it more aggressively once I learned to file and I did everything from dovetails in 3/8" stock to 2" wide tenons with it. Big fan of that saw.

[Jim Koepke]

Just my 288776.

My choice would be to start with a bigger saw, 12 to 14 inch, to be used on any of your joinery requirements. As you learn with it you will come to know better what you will want in the bigger/smaller specialized saws.

My joinery started out with an old backsaw of my dad's. Nothing great, but it worked. Over time other saws were acquired. Then my first handle was made for an old saw plate that was cleaned, jointed flat and all new teeth filed. Recently saw parts were purchased from Ron Bontz. I need to make another handle. One of the blades was used to replace and old pitted blade on a dovetail saw.

Currently my saws may not include the "ideal saw" for every joinery function, but that hasn't stopped me yet.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

When it can only be one backsaw, how about one of these hybrid cut saws? Something like 12", 14 ppi and 10 degree rake with 10 degree fleam. You can easilly convert it to true rip or true crosscut, when your collection gets larger, but it will get you through for the first period.

[David Weaver]

Great minds think alike.

And sometimes I have thoughts that match people with great minds, too, even though I have a trashy brain.

I wonder, and I wonder this because I'm slowly building kitchen cabinets and there aren't any big mortises on them, just lots of fairly small ones - if a do-all with fairly fine teeth like that would lead to woodworking that's just as fast as having a bunch of back saws.

I say that because when I'm using several saws, I'm inevitably getting one down, putting it back up on the rack, etc. whereas if I'm using just one, I only stop to move the wood to the next mark. Much is made of how fast saws cut, but most of the joinery we do requires a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with sawing, and the sawing is a small % of the time. That's another reason I don't advocate going out and spending $250 to just get a fast cutting saw (chances are you can file any saw to be fast cutting once you get used to rake, if you're willing to have several).

I've cut half of the tenons on my kitchen cabinets using a 15 point nurse dovetail saw, same with the shoulders, because it's what I have in my hand. I just don't feel like it's any slower, and it might be faster.

[Matthew N. Masail]

ok so I'm on the edge on ordering the LN 15ppi rip carcass saw. I think it comes with 0 rake, how hard would it be the change that if needed?

David, single stone, single saw.....

[Kees Heiden]

Well, first you'll have to learn saw sharpening. When you've mastered that, it is no problem to change the specs of the saw.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I have ordered the LN 15ppi rip carcass saw... :) Thanks Chris for mentioning it, I didn't even think of it as an option before hand.

[Chris Griggs]

Hopefully you'll find it fits your needs. Its a great dovetail saw and nice for small tenons. Again, mine saw a TON of work. You'll find that tenons more then 1 1/2"-2" wide the teeth fill with sawdust to quickly and it really slows down, but up to about there it does pretty well.

One thing I just noticed is that you mentioned that its 12"...its actually 11" (unless they lengthened it and haven;t updated the site). Not sure if that makes any difference to you, and it doesn't change anything I've said about it, but just though I'd point that out.

No idea what the rake comes at. LN must have gone back and forth on the rake over the years. I've read some people say that theirs were really aggressive, like 0 rake, but mine was fairly relaxed and somewhere around 10 degrees. For my 5 degrees of rake is the sweet spot for a saw like that when used for ripping...if you think you might do a substantial amount of xcutting with it too that 10 degrees is good.

[David Weaver]

It might be interesting to build a cheap bowsaw like the one the guy was using in the chinese video - it looks like it could literally be done just with a few low grade bolts (so you could hacksaw a slot into them) and steel rod (or cord for those who prefer it). There were no extra handles on the saw and I didn't see anything about it where it seemed lacking in performance due to lack of complexity.

I don't personally build much with tenons bigger than 2", so I wouldn't be limited at all by that saw choice, but if I did and money was tight, I'd get a panel saw in the 8 to 10 point range (they are everywhere and cheap) and file it rip and use it for larger tenons.

The first saw I built was a .025" plate 16" long tenon saw with 4 inches of saw under the spine. It's a great saw, cuts like you can't believe. It's also too big to be practical for most of the stuff that I do (at the time I got it, there was a bunch of fluff about how great having a 16" tenon saw was, and I was switching from japanese to western saws so I didn't know any better until I got the saw finished and realized the weight made it a hard starter in small cabinet sized stuff).

I kept my eyes open at the time and found a lot of decent saws. I had one spear and jackson 16" saw that I got off of ebay for about $20, and another one from some saw company in st louis that was $15. They just needed to have their teeth corrected. I also saw at the time, and since then, a lot of saws priced a lot more, and in all of the backsaws I've bought, I did get two that weren't straight that people said were, so that was about $60 thrown away. But if I count the rest - 4 miters, 4 dovetails, and 10 or so in sizes between those, they probably averaged $30 each (the kits pull the average up a little).

It's a little harder to buy saws used now than it was 5 years ago, but it still hinges on whether you want a saw that will allow you to do something, or if you want a saw just because you want something very specific for tool fascination, or to support a boutique maker (and there's nothing wrong with supporting boutique makers as long as others aren't misled as to a need to have a certain saw to do good work).

I do like the one saw idea, but none of my saws are set up like that right now. I've noticed that if I focus on keeping tools moving while I'm in the shop, I get more done and just as neatly than if I try to get very specific about what tools I'm using. Fewer tools makes it easier to keep them moving.

[Noah Wagener]

You guys making saws; how do you bend the brass or steel backing? How do you put holes in the plate for the handle? Something like this?:

http://schoolofwood.com/sites/default/files/webfm/frameresaw/P1010017.JPG

http://schoolofwood.com/sites/default/files/webfm/frameresaw/P1010029_1.JPG

looks expensive. normal drill bits do not work in my experience. Diamond hole cutters for tile neither.

That link to blackburn did not list maple as a wood possibility for handles. Is there something besides aesthetics that would make maple a bad choice? He only gives cosmetic reasons for his choices.

[David Weaver]

HSS bits, figure if they're inexpensive, you will have a dull bit after a saw plate.

George has advocated masonry bits. I haven't tried them. I use HSS bits because I drill the saw handle and the plate at the same time, and the regular twist bits cut the wood fairly nicely, and just drop a screw into the handle for each hole so that the handle doesn't move away from any holes that have already been drilled.

HF bits are probably about 50 cents or so, and you can resharpen them. They're junk, but a good thing to use for a project like this, and a good thing to learn to sharpen on a belt grinder - they cut like mad fresh off of a trizact belt on a belt grinder, and could probably be touched up freehand a couple of times on a diamond hone, too.

[Matthew N. Masail]

It might be interesting to build a cheap bowsaw like the one the guy was using in the chinese video - it looks like it could literally be done just with a few low grade bolts (so you could hacksaw a slot into them) and steel rod (or cord for those who prefer it). There were no extra handles on the saw and I didn't see anything about it where it seemed lacking in performance due to lack of complexity.


I might have to do that.... the LN is out of stock for 2-3weeks . I guess it wasn't meant to be. but what now... acquiring a good saw in short notice isn't as easy, even nowadays, as one might think.

[Jim Koepke]

There are a few tricks.

Low speed, oil and a good bit. I bought a cobalt bit for this but haven't used it yet. It has a much wider angle than most bits. It was purchased at a store where the people behind the counter have been around and know their products.

I specifically mentioned saw plates to drill.

Though if one was available to me a metal punch would be nice.

jtk

[David Weaver]

You might check with lee valley to see if the slotted wenzloff saws are in stock, and tell them about your plan and that you're from out of country to make sure they check pretty hard about whether or not they'll be able to deliver the saw. If I had a decent saw in that range, I'd ship it to wherever you're saying, but all I have is a half junk split nut jackson that's got some pitting (which makes it suitable only for rip). If you're only going to have one for a while, it might as well be a decent one.

I had one other side thought that is completely unrelated. When I first started, I had only japanese pull saws and a couple of rough western saws. I used japanese saws for everything, and there is a lot of truth to their usefulness out of the box. To this point now, every saw that I really like has at least one broken tooth or a tooth or five that has a small tip broken off. That includes the Z saws, and the LV pro dozuki. I used them a fair amount. I expected to get rid of them when they were dull, and at the time I reasoned that replacements for most of them were so inexpensive that it didn't matter. Looking back now that I don't have to depend on them for anything, I'm going to just throw them away instead. I expected to get multiple times as much use out of them as I'd get out of a western joinery saw between sharpenings, but I haven't used any of them any more than you'd use a western joinery saw and they have tiny broken teeth - probably because I have used them on everything under the sun and chose not to baby them. Not all of the saws have chipped teeth, just the ones I like (and they have been used to cut everything, including stuff like macassar ebony, and most of them still have enough tooth that they can be used comfortably).

[Doug Trembath]

Actually, I happen to have a couple of Wenzloff saws, a dovetail and a tenon saw, each barely used, via LV. I'd be happy to help a fellow world traveler in his attempt to acquire some needed tools. I can always order some more, and wait for them, as I did previously. Just trying to be helpful, PM me if you're interested.

[Isaac Smith]

You guys making saws; how do you bend the brass or steel backing? How do you put holes in the plate for the handle? Something like this?:

http://schoolofwood.com/sites/default/files/webfm/frameresaw/P1010017.JPG

http://schoolofwood.com/sites/default/files/webfm/frameresaw/P1010029_1.JPG

looks expensive. normal drill bits do not work in my experience. Diamond hole cutters for tile neither.

That link to blackburn did not list maple as a wood possibility for handles. Is there something besides aesthetics that would make maple a bad choice? He only gives cosmetic reasons for his choices.


I have used masonry bits in the past. They can work very well if you sharpen them first. But the very best bits for doing this are carbide spade drill bits (http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/carbide-spade-drill/index.html). They are made specifically for this task - the carbide eats through any steel, and the spade point is made for drilling sheet metal (the lack of flutes means there is about zero chance of it walking up the bit and becoming a spinning weapon as it breaks through). If you exercise reasonable care with them, they last a very long time.

This is a short video that shows a bit drilling the the bolt holes in the blade.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAwAUWomd0I


As a disclosure, I do sell these carbide bits, but only because I have yet to see an easier or better way of making holes in saw blades.


As far as using maple goes, there is nothing wrong with it. As you suspected, it is an aesthetic choice. Plain maple can look a little bland, but if someone requested it, I would have absolutely no reservations about using it.

Matthew, if you're up for a bit of a drive (I'm about an hour west of Philadelphia) , you're welcome to stop by my shop and try out a few saws, even if you've already ordered the LN.

[George Vincent]

The Saws You Need
Christopher Schwartz
Number of Teeth
In general, when I choose a saw I try to match the number of teeth on the saw (called the pitch) to thethickness of my work. With backless saws, such as handsaws and rip saws, I aim to keep six or seventeeth buried in the wood at all times. With backsaws (such as dovetail and carcase saws) I aim to keep10 teeth buried in the wood at all times.Here's an example of how this works. If I have a 3/4"-thick carcase to dovetail, I'm going to pick a 15-points-per-inch (ppi) saw. But if I am dovetailing a 1/2"-thick drawer side, I'm going to reach forsomething finer, such as an 18-point or 20-point saw.Either saw will work for carcasses or drawers, it's more a matter of what will work better. You don'thave to own two dovetail saws. Just pick the one that suits the style of work you do. (Note that theserules don't apply to Japanese saws because they have deeper gullets that don't fill with sawdust.)And note that there are practical limits. Few tenon saws come coarser than 10 ppi, but sometimes youhave to saw a 2"-wide tenon cheek. A 5-point tenon saw would be a bear to start. So be flexible.
Kinds of Saws and What Order to Buy Them In
If you build typical furniture , cabinets, chairs, tables and chests , the following list of saws ismeaningful. If you build smaller stuff (jewelry boxes) or bigger stuff (huge armoires), you are going tohave to adjust. But I think this is a good list.
Carcase Saw
Typical blade length: 10" to 14"Points: 12 to 14 ppiType of filing: CrosscutI think this is a great saw to purchase first. It is easy to start and control, and it is useful for all sorts ofcrosscuts with a bench hook. Practicing with this saw will prepare you for the more challengingbacksaws. What length should you choose? As with all saws, I think longer saws make straighter cuts,but they can be harder for beginners to control. My favorite is 14" long. I'm not worked up about theppi. I see little difference between 12 ppi and 14 ppi.
Dovetail Saw
Length: 6" to 10"Points: 14 ppi to 21 ppiType of filing: RipNo matter what I write you'll buy a dovetail saw as soon as possible. We all want to cut dovetails. Sogo ahead. The smaller dovetail saws generally have finer teeth so the length isn't as issue as much asthe ppi. Choose a ppi that matches what you like to do. Do you build lots of drawers? Get a finer saw(18 to 20 ppi). Like blanket chests? Get something in the 15 ppi neighborhood. What about the"progressive-pitch" saws, where the teeth are finer at the toe and coarser at the heel? I like them, but ittook me a bit of time to acquire a taste for them. If you can try one before you buy it, that's ideal.
Tenon Saw
Length: 16" to 20"Points: 10 ppi to 11 ppiType of filing: RipI'm using the specifications for an old-style tenon saw. Usually they don't come this big anymore,except for one made by Wenzloff & Sons. I like a big tenon saw (19"), but I seem to like bigger saws ingeneral. When I teach sawing, my students are split: Half like the bigger saw for cutting tenon cheeks;the other half like a smaller sash saw instead.
Sash Saw (aka a Modern Tenon Saw)
Length: 14" to 16"Points: 10 ppi is typicalType of filing: Rip or Crosscut is availableThe name "sash saw" has disappeared from most catalogs, but the form lives on as a "tenon saw" or a"crosscut tenon saw." I like a rip-filed tenon/sash saw because cutting the cheeks is a rip operation.Some people choose a crosscut sash saw in place of a crosscut carcase saw because they like big sawsor have larger-scale work to do. As you can see, this is where it gets complex. You don't need both arip tenon saw and a rip sash saw (though you are free to get both). Choose one that suits you. I like a14" sash saw no matter what the filing. Go figure.
Handsaw
Length: 22" to 26"Points: 5 ppi to 12 ppiType of filing: CrosscutThese backless saws are used to break down rough stock before you process it and to cut largercomponents to size before you shoot them to their final lengths. I like a 7 ppi saw (they're as commonas dirt). Choose a shorter saw if it matches your stature or if you work on top of a workbench. Choose alonger saw if you are taller (I like 26") or if you work on a sawbench (an 18"-high platform designedfor sawing). I think these saws are great because they give you lots of sawing practice, which pays offbig when you cut dovetails. Usually the saws shorter than 26" are called panel saws.
Ripsaw
Length: 22" to 26"Points: 3-1/2" ppi to 5 ppiType of filing: RipI don't use a ripsaw all that much (see the dust on the sawplate?). Honestly, I prefer a powered bandsaw. Long rip cuts are a lot like work. I'd get a ripsaw only if you are deep into the purity of hand workor you have kids sleeping upstairs.

[Matthew N. Masail]

You might check with lee valley to see if the slotted wenzloff saws are in stock, and tell them about your plan and that you're from out of country to make sure they check pretty hard about whether or not they'll be able to deliver the saw. If I had a decent saw in that range, I'd ship it to wherever you're saying, but all I have is a half junk split nut jackson that's got some pitting (which makes it suitable only for rip). If you're only going to have one for a while, it might as well be a decent one.

I had one other side thought that is completely unrelated. When I first started, I had only japanese pull saws and a couple of rough western saws. I used japanese saws for everything, and there is a lot of truth to their usefulness out of the box. To this point now, every saw that I really like has at least one broken tooth or a tooth or five that has a small tip broken off. That includes the Z saws, and the LV pro dozuki. I used them a fair amount. I expected to get rid of them when they were dull, and at the time I reasoned that replacements for most of them were so inexpensive that it didn't matter. Looking back now that I don't have to depend on them for anything, I'm going to just throw them away instead. I expected to get multiple times as much use out of them as I'd get out of a western joinery saw between sharpenings, but I haven't used any of them any more than you'd use a western joinery saw and they have tiny broken teeth - probably because I have used them on everything under the sun and chose not to baby them. Not all of the saws have chipped teeth, just the ones I like (and they have been used to cut everything, including stuff like macassar ebony, and most of them still have enough tooth that they can be used comfortably).

Thanks David (-: If I'm able to get a cross-cut saw, would it be an issue to file it back to rip? I assume at minimum take out some of the fleam? (I've been doing my homework )


I know what you mean about the Japanese saws, the teeth do break, possibly because they are so hard (?). but I don't feel much difference in use... but still a nice perspective.

I had a hard time falling asleep last night, with the possibility of coming back saw-less :o (a little melo-dramatic) I had this idea about taking a hacksaw blade (If I could find one that files nicely) and filing teeth into it. if it worked, I was planing a frame for it. what do you think?

[Matthew N. Masail]

I have used masonry bits in the past. They can work very well if you sharpen them first. But the very best bits for doing this are carbide spade drill bits (http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/carbide-spade-drill/index.html). They are made specifically for this task - the carbide eats through any steel, and the spade point is made for drilling sheet metal (the lack of flutes means there is about zero chance of it walking up the bit and becoming a spinning weapon as it breaks through). If you exercise reasonable care with them, they last a very long time.

This is a short video that shows a bit drilling the the bolt holes in the blade.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAwAUWomd0I


As a disclosure, I do sell these carbide bits, but only because I have yet to see an easier or better way of making holes in saw blades.


As far as using maple goes, there is nothing wrong with it. As you suspected, it is an aesthetic choice. Plain maple can look a little bland, but if someone requested it, I would have absolutely no reservations about using it.

Matthew, if you're up for a bit of a drive (I'm about an hour west of Philadelphia) , you're welcome to stop by my shop and try out a few saws, even if you've already ordered the LN.

Hi Isaac, Thank you! I'll be in NJ most of the time so thats acually not too far (If I can convince my wife to drive me..).
since I'm coming in for a wedding and most of my time is taken up with family, I'd have to see if I could find the time. but I hope I will be able to and if so I would love to come so hopefully I'll be in touch.










































































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