The Auction Place

[David Dalzell]

I used to frequent, and buy, old tools from the well known Auction site. But lately, a year or so, I have pretty much given up on buying anything there. Prices seem to have skyrocketed. I look at old tools there and many times I see that I can buy good quality new tools from US, Canadian, and other tool makes for not much more than the Auction site is getting. I don't know for sure if this is all in my imagination, or I am getting cheaper, or what. Well the truth is I am not getting cheaper since I am buying more and more high quality (expensive) tools. Anyway, the end result is that I go more and more to LN and LV. More expensive? Yes, but not by that much. Better quality? I am convinced that LN and LV, plus domestic saw makers are producing superior quality tools.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Agree on all points. Now it is only rare low-priced buy it now auctions that have any deals. I still watch, and got a great deal on LED bulbs and other sundries, but not on tools. A chisel plane used for $20 less than new? Hard to justify.

LN, LV, and the boutique saw makers are all cranking out quality stuff to last for generations. Others as well, not to leave anyone out, like Blue Spruce, which one day I will own a set of their paring chisels with cocobolo handles.

[David Weaver]

You're not going to get LN or LV stuff cheap on ebay, especially if an auction is open to overseas shipping (check out the prices for LN tools in the UK and australia and that'll quickly tell you why).

I'm not sure the sale prices of the average item on ebay are that much higher, but on specific things they are. Years ago, I got a couple of millers falls 18 planes for an average cost of $27.

What is different now vs. years ago is that ebay doesn't charge anything to list an item and put up a ridiculous BIN, so there's a whole lot more of that, and it has staying power, too, because of the lack of a price. I sold a john bell panel raiser about 4 or 5 years ago for $175. I started it out as a BIN auction at $150 and it went for two months, and it cost me $3 every month to let it sit there. After the second time, it didn't sell, I put it up on a straight up auction because I wasn't going to hold it for a year just to pay $36. Lucked out that people liked bidding on it more than they lied the BIN, but that's not the point. Now every crap seller who thinks that they're just going to find a person or two willing to pay three times market value can put up garbage and wait- and we have to sift through it.

BUT, take a look at the completed items to actually get an idea on the price of a good, and it'll usually tell you that for the 40 items of the same type listed for $75-$250, only 3 in the last month actually sold, and all sold for less than $50 or so. What that tells you or me is this:
* you need to find the few auctions that are straight up auctions, and ignore the fixed priced listings unless they were just put up
* use a bidder that doesn't charge unless you win, like esnipe (maybe they're all that way) and put in a reasonable bid on every auction item that comes up, and cancel the rest if you win something
* sort for something on "newly listed" and BIN only to see if someone is just dumping stuff BIN style at a lower price to sell it. That's not that common, but it happens time to time.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I agree with Davids analysis. I used to spend 30 mins every morning looking at wood tools ending today. Spent more money than I care to add up. Then the "buy it now" takeover happened, and I haven't bought anything since.

I listed several expensive ag gps components earlier this year, started each with BIN, and like David said, none sold until I changed to an auction. You'd think the sellers would change back at some point. ebay wants to be amazon, and it ruined ebay.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I still find decent deals now and then if you're willing to order something from Britain, but the shipping can be wacky.

Seems like the English auction site sellers (or at least the ones I've bought from) don't list as many crazy reserve prices or buy it now auctions. I've gotten a few really good deals, were even with shipping, it was less than what I would have payed from the States. I think the odd (for the US-centric, world, at least) auction ending times often help, too.

Some of the sellers are more than willing to gather up a few pieces if there's more than one thing you want if it will save you one shipping.

The UK Post is a bit odd - I can never quite guess if the shipping is going to be reasonable or not - I got several gouges shipped for rates that were comparable to what shipping would have been from a domestic seller on the west coast, but on a single long chisel it was a fair chunk of change. I think it's got to be some combo of both weight and size.

If the seller uses eBays shipping calculator, however, you'll get a good idea of what the individual shipping will be right in the auction before you place a bid.

It's doesn't lend itself well to the impulse buying of common braces and planes that I used to do on eBay, but when I'm looking for something like a nice western-style paring chisel or gouge, or a plane blade, or even auger bits sometimes, it can be quite competitive. The stuff I've bought from England hasn't been been super cheap, but I'm willing to spend 30-40 bucks after shipping on a really nice paring chisel if it's in good shape and it saves me from having to look at a whole bunch of drek in used shops, and it's a whole lot better than the guy that keeps listing the same paring chisels for a 100-plus dollars a pop before shipping here in that states . Not where I'm going to look to pick up a Stanley #4 or a block plane, but it's something worth checking out. I've filled out a decent selection of in-cannel gouges, some paring chisels, and a dado plane this way recently.

[Jim Belair]

I can't be bothered buying tools (or anything else) through eBay. If it's something I'll use a lot, I go Veritas or occasionally LN. If it's something I might use in future or just want to play around with (or yes, just admire it's gizmocity), l'll buy from Josh at hyperkitten or another reputable dealer.

[David Weaver]

You'd think the sellers would change back at some point. ebay wants to be amazon, and it ruined ebay.

I'd think when it comes down to it, sellers have two choices, especially the types of sellers who go to estate sales and fleas and then flip on ebay:
1) sell a lot of volume at a reasonable price
2) see if you can screw a few people every once in a while and try to make the same amount of overall money you'd make with #1 above, but doing a lot less work

I consider #2 to be somewhat antisocial and filthy, but there is no shortage of people doing it. I think they know 90% of their stuff isn't going to sell over a long period of time, but they don't care because they don't need the money right this second and they don't have to pay on ebay.

I'd assume that overall, ebay knows this model maximizes their revenue, but it keeps me from looking for tools very often on there. I've bought more from the UK than anywhere else in the last several months, just because some of the UK sellers are very reasonable and have had stuff worth buying.

[Adam Cruea]

I've noticed one some "BIN" auctions there's a "make an offer". If something's totally ludicrous (like $450 for a 604. . .yes, I've seen it), I'll purposefully send a low-ball offer of like $50 to get the message across to the seller that he/she is being stupid.

Bode was the worst offender of that one. I'm glad that guy's gone from there. At least now, prices dropped slightly.

[Andrew Fleck]

You can still find some good deals on there occasionally. You have to look for misspellings. Recently I won a #606 "Bedrook Plain" for $12 and I was the only bidder. If I'm looking for something in particular I misspell it in the search in as many different ways that I can think of. If nothing else it's good for a laugh.

[David Weaver]

If someone has "offer" and they have something that I really want with a ridiculous price, I will make an offer. There was a nice hand cut vintage yellowish hard ark stone on ebay about 3 years ago for $200. I liked the stone at $100. I offered that and the seller took the offer. I was sort of snarking the seller a little bit, but was happy that he/she took the offer.

I've had the offer make no sense otherwise. There is a puma stockman that was $60, I offered $50, got an automated response that my offer was too low, try again. So I trued 52, same thing, then 54 and it told me I was prohibited from making any more offers because my offers were too low. $54 on a $60 item doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all, and it's not really taxing an automated system to reply - that was pretty stupid on ebay, and the seller's part, because I probably would've bought it for a few bucks less than $60.

I found another one for $50 after that, and that particular knife is still on ebay. If I click on it, it still gives me a big bold message that I have been blocked from making any more offers below the BIN price!!!

I was happy to see bode go, too. There are a lot of copycats, though, and a lot of people putting up very basic disston saws for $200. I don't fully grasp the idea of paying someone $250-$300 for a very common disston/atkins/simonds saw for cleaning it - pt barnum is at work every day, I guess.

[Adam Cruea]

I was happy to see bode go, too. There are a lot of copycats, though, and a lot of people putting up very basic disston saws for $200. I don't fully grasp the idea of paying someone $250-$300 for a very common disston/atkins/simonds saw for cleaning it - pt barnum is at work every day, I guess.

The only time I'll pay that much for saws, that thing better be cleaned, well sharpened, tested, and have a beautiful tote with no crack, chips, dings, dents, or paint.

Speaking of which, I picked up a couple of old Disstons for < $40. An x-cut and ripper. Now I gotta learn how to sharpen as well as get a freakin' saw vice. Boo-hoo. Sniffle Sniffle. :D

[David Weaver]

I've always targeted somewhere between $25 and $50 for *nice* disston saws, with the top end of the range reserved for absolutely full-height saws with good teeth and no pitting. I've gotten a lot of saws for less than that, which is nice, but I've had to do some work to all but one saw. For me to pay $300 for a vintage saw, it would have to be an expensive make and be in the wrapper still and absolutely and completely free from any marks of corrosion, dirt or use.

I've had to wait from time to time to get saws, but i've always been able to find good ones in my range. I crept above that range three times for disston 12s, but not by more than $15. I think I did one other time for a very long richardson brothers rip saw in 4 1/2 points from a dealer, too, but that turned out to be sort of a waste of money.

Sharpening your own saws will free you up to buy a whole lot more, and being able to hammer them straight will really allow you to buy good full plate saws with some freedom from disappointment.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I think the saw thing, there were a few reputable saw sharpeners who listed their saws auction style. But they've been lovingly restored, hand sharpened, and their in great shape. They never started the auctions at anything I think was ridiculous for the work they put into it. And I'd count separating the dregs from the good stuff as part of that work - as common as nice Disstons and Simmonds are, for every one I come across that's in great shape, there's 2 or 3 that need a fair amount of work, and maybe use up a file, and then countless more that are just basket cases - bent, kinked, pitted beyond use, worn up to nubs, etc.

At least the guys I'm thinking of, (and some of the others who sell here in the classifieds on occasion, and might be some of the same folks) stand behind their work 100%, take returns, offer guarantees, etc. If you look up their names on the woodworking forums, you'll also see them mentioned as reputable dealers. The saws they offer might be nicer than folks need, and some might think sloped gullets aren't worth the hassle, or what have you, but at the end of the day, you probably get a tool that's ready to go, cuts nicer than new, and only needs regular maintenance to keep it going. To me, not worth paying extra if I can find something salvageable locally, but not everyone has that option or wants to start that way - I can certainly see the appeal, particularly if you're looking for a longer saw than you can get new from say LN.

Because eBay lets the market decide prices, these guys saws have gone up in cost as word spread. And hey, good on them - they made work, people appreciated it, and it's worth what someone is willing to pay. Maybe it'd be nicer to those of us with shallower pockets if they sold things at a BIN price that didn't go as high as the eBay prices do, but then you'd have the same situation you have with something like Josh Clarke's Hyperkitten auctions - by the time I get the email, everything I might want is long gone. Or they could put up a waiting list, and in no time, you'd have a one year wait on getting a saw.

So none of those sellers are really a problem. The problem is eBay can be separate from the rest of the internet, and there's a lot of folks who saw some of those saws go for a couple hundred bucks and then just started to try and sell anything they could as high as they could, and I think there's a lot of folks who don't have a lot of background knowledge on saws just buying what they think looks good for what they think is a better price without realizing what they're actually paying for.

I would certainly never buy a saw online from someone I didn't trust to vouch for the actual condition of the saw, or at least a generous return policy, unless the price was good enough to ignore those things.

You see a lot of saws on eBay that the work has been spent trying to make it look shiny and new and not working nicely. The funniest are the ones where a photo of the handle lets you get a *real* look at the plate, where as the photos of the plate have been shot in light that specifically makes them look better than they are.


There's also a guy with a rambling manifesto on sharpening and his "patented" method of sharpening, that I'm not sure what to make of, but the auction descriptions are funny read sometimes.

I just see auctions closing all the time, and know someone's getting burned, or has way too much money in their pockets, and it's a bummer.

Someone should set up like, a separate site for tool restorers - something where folks that put money and time into restoring tools can be recognized for that effort, make it easy for new folks to know who to trust and shop from when they're just starting out, and allow those folks to be adequately compensated for their efforts when selling. Then eBay can be left to us bottom-feeders who just want to scrounge on the cheap junk, but the pros turning a profit on fixing up old tools don't need to work their fingers to the bone trying to make enough inventory and running the logistics of keeping a solo site for themselves going.

[David Weaver]

So none of those sellers are really a problem.

Yeah, I agree they're not. Some of the very long text descriptions are a bit of overselling (almost like a circus theme with all of the different colors, etc) of what a user is really going to experience on a saw that:
1) sharpness is transient on
2) is still going to be physical work to use

But the buyers are the ones who are really driving the problem because IIRC, most of those are straight up auctions.

We don't have anyone here who asks prices that go into the stratosphere that some of those sales do. I often wondered when something like a fat plated atkins 14 point backsaw that is patterned after disston is sold for something like $200, what do the people who buy it really think when they use it compared to something like an old english saw that goes for $50 (that you may have to sharpen yourself). I'd be pretty nonplussed (and have been) by those disston pattern backsaws in the 10" range, but the ones I've gotten, I've paid about $20 and was expecting about $20 worth of feel from them.

[Adam Cruea]

Oh, I was way off. . .I only paid around $300 for 3 saws from Mike Allen on here. Good guy, and the saws were sharpened and cleaned very well. :) And yes, I've noticed overselling on that auction site, and it turn, some folks that have to compete will start to go a little into overselling. I understand, though. They have to cater to the idiots that love buzzwords and flashy crap. And keep in mind, most of the auctions are hit up by idiots that can't tell you the difference between a Disston or Atkins and a Bedrock or Bailey. They've just heard someone else that seems to have a clue (but usually doesn't) mention a name and zoom. . .off they go to spend money. Most people have more money than brains these days.

Most of the time, if I buy things any more, I go with Patrick Leech. He's honest, everything I've gotten from him has been a good user, and he doesn't sell crap tools. Prices are elevated, but you never have to worry about him ripping you off, so it's worth it for that trust factor.

Though, I've found for something you don't "need" right now, antique shops beat the Flea hands down. Saws, planes, you name it. There's nothing better than being able to hold a tool and closely inspect it.

[Daniel Rode]

I don't know if things at the auction site are over priced or not. If someone buys at a given price, it's the right price (for someone). That someone is usually not me. I've been looking for a #80 cabinet scraper. I don't need one, but they are darn useful for some things and the Stanley #80 design, IMO, very simple and very usable. This level of darn usefulness is worth $20 to me provided the tool is complete and has a usable iron. I don't much care how compete the japanning is, so I'm not inclined to pay more for a prettier one.

I poke around every couple of weeks to see what I can find and the going rate seems to be $40+. $40 will get me a brand new #80 clone from one maker and $33 from another. For $70 I can get a new LV cabinet scraper. $40 for a rusty old Stanley, Nope. Not me.

Maybe I'm just cheap, but I'm not buying one until I find it for $20. There's a lot of stuff on this site I won't buy until I find one at my price.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

You can still find some good deals on there occasionally. You have to look for misspellings. Recently I won a #606 "Bedrook Plain" for $12 and I was the only bidder. If I'm looking for something in particular I misspell it in the search in as many different ways that I can think of. If nothing else it's good for a laugh.

That is how I got a Meucci pool cue spelled as "Meuci" for $75 with leather case, two black dot shafts, and shaft protectors. The cue sells for $750 new.

[Eric Brown]

I think some of the high prices are simply there to get people to respond and tell the seller what they have. I recently saw an auger selling for about $35 and the shipping was $27. Way too high on the shipping. The seller said they would refund any excessive shipping. I offered $1 and for some reason he declined. By putting high BIN prices the seller can evaluate the offers and get educated about the tool.

There is one regular saw seller on the bay that I have dealt with. All he does is saws. Its how he makes his living. He even sharpens the old logging saws for competition events. He does an amazing job at sharpening (sloped gullets) and he always gives an accurate description. His saws are in excellent working shape (unless noted, like a collector saw) and he donates the lesser quality saws to emergency agencies for disaster cleanup.

The best way to determine a sellers commitment is to see if they have a return policy.

Eric

[Mike Allen1010]

Oh, I was way off. . .I only paid around $300 for 3 saws from Mike Allen on here. Good guy, and the saws were sharpened and cleaned very well. :) And yes, I've noticed overselling on that auction site, and it turn, some folks that have to compete will start to go a little into overselling. I understand, though. They have to cater to the idiots that love buzzwords and flashy crap. And keep in mind, most of the auctions are hit up by idiots that can't tell you the difference between a Disston or Atkins and a Bedrock or Bailey. They've just heard someone else that seems to have a clue (but usually doesn't) mention a name and zoom. . .off they go to spend money. Most people have more money than brains these days..

Hi David, Josh and Adam,

I think your comments are very interesting and right on target and wanted to chime in here. In the interest of full disclosure, I have a "bad handsaw problem", I've restored and sharpened hundreds of vintage handsaw's which I use regularly. In the interest of "thinning the herd" to reasonable levels, I have sold a few "extra" saws over the years both here and on the mega auction site. That said, I have a "more than full-time" day job and my motivation for selling saws is not primarily economic.

With regard to long-winded descriptions of saws offered for sale, I think there are at least a couple different kinds of buyers;

* Guys like you who are experienced, knowledgeable hand tool users who understand the difference between saw manufacturers, models, pitch, tooth geometry and overall sharpening/tuning methods, appreciate the benefits of sharp, well tuned tools, and know what a reasonable price is for a quality saw, and finally who are able to maintain a well sharpen saw to keep it performing well and/or are able to sharpen/restore a neglected vintage saw.


* Secondly I've talked with lots of less experienced woodworkers who typically only know: A) They want to start using handsaw's more extensively in their work, B) Generally prefer quality, well performing tools and are willing to pay a fair price for a "quality user" saw, but C) Don't really know what constitutes a "quality user saw at a fair price".

For woodworkers in the second category, absent a full understanding of handsaw's, the "long-winded" saw descriptions help them make a more informed decision about what they're buying. Likely their lowest risk option is to buy a restored saw from one of the well-established online sellers, where depending on the model and reputation of the saw tuner are in the one $200-$400 range.

What constitutes a "fair price" is obviously subjective and I think an understanding of the fundamental economics can be helpful for a buyer:

David I I would agree with you that for a fundamentally sound (straight plate, no significant pitting, no more than ~1" or so of the original plate used up, solid/intact tote etc.) mid-level quality user (Disston D-8, Atkins 53, or similar), with shipping you'll pay around $40-$50. I'm envious of my fellow meanders who find saws like this for $5 at the local flea market/garage sale, but in my experience around $50 is more typical. Unless the tooth line is in unusually good shape, I usually go through at least two Grobet/Bahco files (~$15), to establish a straight/breasted tooth line, consistent tooth profile/geometry and final sharpening.

The amount of time that goes into restoring the plate and tote is a matter of taste to some degree, the saws I typically buy have no original finish remaining so I sand off the major imperfections, soak in oil varnish, apply a couple coats of shellac and paste wax, clean/buff fasteners. The real sweat work is in restoring plates; I usually soak and sand through 400 grit to remove rust/corrosion and buff through several grants on the buffing wheel – I know that's not for everyone but I like my plates slick and shiny. Then there's the joining, tooth profiling initial sharpening, setting and final sharpening.

In total it usually takes me about four hours of actual work time over several days to completely restore, sharpen/tune a saw. So if you do the math: $65 for the saw and files, + 4 hours at $15/hour = $125. For me, motivation to sell restored saws is certainly not economic and I think clearly no one is making any appreciable $ restoring handsaw's, even the guys selling saws in the $250-$300 range. I guess like any tool "buy versus make" decision it comes down to what your time is worth and what you want to do with it.

All the best, Mike

[David Weaver]

Mike, I agree about work time, and the sweat work of sanding is something you have to split up if for no other reason, so you have fresh eyes to judge when it's a good job. I tend to spend less time on my saws than you do, and they are thus not as cosmetically fine. I personally like your model and style, because I have never seen you blowing drifts of snow at beginners. Andy they certainly are entitled to buy $300-$400 common saws on ebay, I just think they're doing an economic disservice to themselves and many of the buyers (not all) don't yet have the judgement about saws to know that they are. They are taken by the big claims of things like "race saws" and jargon about sharpening some way that's superior, but the complexity doesn't add anything material in the shop over a saw that's got decent geometry and uniformly sharp teeth in a uniform toothline.

I also have a saw problem, but it's not nearly as bad as yours! I just have trouble parting with some of them. At least count, I have about 60 or 70, but a dozen or so are japanese and half a dozen of the others, I wouldn't give away to someone - it would be doing them a disservice. How to trim down the rest of the group and get back to everything fitting in my till, I just haven't figured out. It's like those people on hoarders, I know that I don't have any use for more than about 7 or 8 of the saws, but I look at them and say "...no, i want to keep that one....and...that one, and that one, too, and I can't part with that one....".

[Mike Allen1010]

I also have a saw problem, but it's not nearly as bad as yours! I just have trouble parting with some of them. At least count, I have about 60 or 70, but a dozen or so are japanese and half a dozen of the others, I wouldn't give away to someone - it would be doing them a disservice. How to trim down the rest of the group and get back to everything fitting in my till, I just haven't figured out. It's like those people on hoarders, I know that I don't have any use for more than about 7 or 8 of the saws, but I look at them and say "...no, i want to keep that one....and...that one, and that one, too, and I can't part with that one....".

Thanks David, it's reassuring to know that I'm not alone with my "problem":). Perhaps as a service to ourselves and our fellow neanders we should start some sort of 12 step support group....... on second thought nahh!

I have the saws in my shop group by function "coarse crosscut, fine cross cut, rip" etc., one of my coworkers is a woodworker interested in hand tools, and I asked him to pick one from each group for himself and it was somehow very "liberating" to score some karmic points (which goodness knows I desperately need!) and have empty spaces in the tills. B

Based on what my wife describes as "all the rusty things hanging from the rafters", I have a feeling the empty till spots won't stay that way for long. I'm just about finished with a current furniture project and I have to confess I found myself the other night looking through the "Rusty stuff" and looking forward to finishing the furniture project so I could start restoring a couple old saws. If the irrepressible desire to restore old tools that I have absolutely no need for isn't a sign of a serious illness, I'm not sure what is! Maybe I do need the 12 step program after all…

All the best, Mike

[David Weaver]

Mike, there are tons of things I'd rather do than make furniture, too. I'd like to make about a dozen planes right now, but I don't know if I'll ever have the time to do it. Making furniture to me is like taking medicine. I like dimensioning the wood, but I don't love planning everything, especially if it has to be to a specific dimension, and at least with the kitchen cabinets right now (that are 100% dado all the way around), I really despise glue ups.

I've always despised glue ups. I would love to have been afforded the ability to build the cabinets in situ instead of building commercial style cabinets.

I have the same problem with my saws. I got some orphan branded saws from MJD one time, one's a hudson brand, another is Athena or something (or maybe that's the same one?). They didn't bring good money along with a perfect shape atkins backsaw (2 rip saws, a crosscut saw and the atkins backsaw sold for $55), probably because nobody knew what they were.

The hudson is in a point count that I don't use a lot of, 9, so I filed it aggressive for a crosscut with not so much fleam, and I really love using it. I've got other saws that have a lot of fleam and they rasp in hardwoods (they are intended for 2x4s, etc) and the more I file saws aggressively, the more I think if I had only one crosscut saw in the 8/9 range, I would file it like that and buy one of those junky hardened tooth stanley saws that HD has for $20.

I did have to learn to hammer saws straight on that hudson batch, but since they were a bunch of nonames, I thought I could just unload them inexpensively to a beginner, but now I like them because they're pin straight and....well, I guess that's the trouble with setting up a saw that you like the setup. Then you don't want to get rid of the saw.

When I started, I thought if I just had a bunch of 12s, then I'd have what I want. I haven't used my 12s much.

My favorite crosscut saw for furniture building is an old spear and jackson 12 point 26" long saw. It cost me $16 shipped on ebay, it had a little frown and the teeth were all over the place in size. It's the kind of saw I'd tell every beginner to avoid. I jointed it and recut the teeth, the ones in the middle are still probably varying from 10-13, and they'll get more uniform as the level of them changes. It cuts 4/4 hardwood stuff almost as fast as an 8 point saw and it's super smooth cutting but long.