How do you choose a hang angle when making a saw handle?

[Judson Green]

Thanks to Ron Bontz for the saw plates I'm going to attempt to make two saw handles (one for 10" dovetail, one for a 16" tenon) soon, I've found sites with patterns, but...

How to you determine a pattern that's right for you?

Trial and error? Or is there a some kind of rules/formula a guy could follow?

[David Weaver]

Generally weight of the saw, length of the saw, and height of the handle above the tooth line.

I usually try to find something that I like in an old saw and copy it fairly closely, but you have wiggle room with tooth rake if you make a saw hang too aggressive - as long as you aren't ridiculously far out of spec.

[Judson Green]

Lets just talk dovetail saws to make this simpler. So this one the plate measures 10" long, 2½" tall and currently 15 ppi , 8° rake.


By weight do you mean the entire saw or plate + spine? I guess I have no idea anyway on account of I haven't got a spine (can't help but think of a boneless chicken ranch), nor is the handle made so I can't weigh anything.

Maybe I'm using the term "hang angle" wrong cause I think what I'm really asking is how you would determine how much of your hand you would want above the level of the spine and the preference for one handle angle vs another.

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The first two put your hand completely below the spine, the third increasing the angle and your hand mostly below, the last with the most angle and quite a bit of your hand above the spine.

Do ya just pick one and like it... till ya don't?

[Bill Houghton]

No expert, me, just observations of older Disston and Atkins saws: on those, the gripping part of the handle starts at about the level of the spine and goes up from there. Hang angle - what the angle of the handle is relative to the sawplate - is determined by drawing an imaginary line at right angles to the grip, and looking at where it crosses the tooth line. On the small Disston/Atkins backsaws I own, this happens about an inch in from of the heel of the sawplate (doesn't have to be exact). This differs, by the way, from the hang angle on handsaws, where the hang angle "line" hits the teeth in about the center of the length of the saw.

But I would think the "right for you" is important; how much above the work your shoulder is when you're cutting and that sort of thing. Didn't Pop WW feature someone last year who was conducting research on that subject? Megan Fitzpatrick would know what happened with that guy; there was a photo of her sitting on a sawbench with the guy examining her sawing stance.

[David Weaver]

I would choose the third pattern based on what you've written about the plate and rake.

I'd save the top one for taller saws, and the bottom one for saws that don't have much plate depth. The design of the third one looks nicer than the second (and the fourth and the first).

[Judson Green]

I thought the third one looked prettier too. And was sure hoping you weren't gonna say the top one was the best, guess I could make it look a little better than that.

[Isaac Smith]

In general, the shorter the saw, the higher the hang angle will be. As the hang angle is increased (by rotating the handle), the height of the handle above the spine is also increased.

It's rather fortuitous how this all works out. Shorter saws need a higher hang so that you can direct some of the forward thrust down into the teeth. Shorter saws also tend to have shallower blades, so the increased height of the handle provides clearance at the end of the blade.

That said, the height of the handle above the spine is almost totally irrelevant. If you are concerned about the height of the handle, the toothline is a far more significant reference.

All of these are largely a matter of personal preference, and you will most likely be able to adapt to a range of fits. Your best bet is to look backwards and pick a pattern that pleases your eye (just make sure that it comes from a comparably sized saw).

For what it's worth, the third one is pretty close to what I use in my 10" dovetail saws. It seems to agree with most people who try it out. The one in your picture looks like the hang angle is a little higher than mine, though. If I were starting with that template, I would probably lower it a few degrees. But that's where personal preference comes into play.

[Pedro Reyes]

My understanding is that use will also determine optimal hang angle.

If you will saw with a Moxon vise, closer to eye level, then hang angle should go down, simply to allow for a proper grip of the saw (think how your wrist has to bend the higher your saw is).

Pedro

[Ron Bontz]

Speaking only of back saws. The vast array of vintage saws had many different hang angles. In general, given the same pitch, rake, and fleam, the higher hang angles will be more aggressive. A saw with a hang angle of say 38* will seem to push easier than one with a 45* hang due to more horizontal force being applied on the 38*. A 32* hang angle would be easier yet. ( given the same pitch, rake and fleam ) There is also the question of stance/ body mechanics. Bottom line: See if you can find and try some saws with different hang angles and filings to get a better feel for what YOU like as well as what is comfortable in your hands.

[Judson Green]

Thanks for chiming in Isaac.

I was checking out your website (article on this very subject) before connecting the dots that you are the author.



In general, the shorter the saw, the higher the hang angle will be. As the hang angle is increased (by rotating the handle), the height of the handle above the spine is also increased.

It's rather fortuitous how this all works out. Shorter saws need a higher hang so that you can direct some of the forward thrust down into the teeth. Shorter saws also tend to have shallower blades, so the increased height of the handle provides clearance at the end of the blade.

That said, the height of the handle above the spine is almost totally irrelevant. If you are concerned about the height of the handle, the toothline is a far more significant reference.

All of these are largely a matter of personal preference, and you will most likely be able to adapt to a range of fits. Your best bet is to look backwards and pick a pattern that pleases your eye (just make sure that it comes from a comparably sized saw).

For what it's worth, the third one is pretty close to what I use in my 10" dovetail saws. It seems to agree with most people who try it out. The one in your picture looks like the hang angle is a little higher than mine, though. If I were starting with that template, I would probably lower it a few degrees. But that's where personal preference comes into play.

[Judson Green]

Thanks Ron

I guess my concern is the if the hang angle it too high the saw will be uncomfortable on my wrist, but lacking any real experience, I just don't know. And sadly none of my friends are into woodworking, at least not hand tool woodworking. I guess I need to start somewhere, I can redo it later if I decide I don't like it.

Kinda funny I'm also into sporting clays and have determined that the drop, cast and pull of my gun could be improved. In the bespoke world of shotguns (lots of dollars) they have this thing called a try-gun. In short the butt is adjustable in every way, be kinda cool if there was a try-saw. At least just a hinge or two for finding the right hang angle.

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Speaking only of back saws. The vast array of vintage saws had many different hang angles. In general, given the same pitch, rake, and fleam, the higher hang angles will be more aggressive. A saw with a hang angle of say 38* will seem to push easier than one with a 45* hang due to more horizontal force being applied on the 38*. A 32* hang angle would be easier yet. ( given the same pitch, rake and fleam ) There is also the question of stance/ body mechanics. Bottom line: See if you can find and try some saws with different hang angles and filings to get a better feel for what YOU like as well as what is comfortable in your hands.

[Bill Houghton]

Kinda funny I'm also into sporting clays...

Do they call it "sporting clays" because you give the clays a five minute head start?

[Jim Koepke]

In the bespoke world of shotguns (lots of dollars) they have this thing called a try-gun. In short the butt is adjustable in every way, be kinda cool if there was a try-saw. At least just a hinge or two for finding the right hang angle.

For my first saw handle something like a try-saw handle was made. It was no where near as elaborate as the try-gun since it was for my own use. It was just a prototype handle made from a scrap piece of pine. No worries about much. If it was an embarrassment there is always a fire place to destroy the evidence.

After making the prototype handle it was used to practice my "air sawing." Any tight spots were also noted on my original template drawing. Also noted was the hold interface for where the sawing was going be done.

One idea that came to me was to cut a slot in this and then instal a blade held by one bolt to adjust the angle. Too much work and a degree or two difference isn't going to be the end of the world.

My knowledge of how to define a hang angle has me convinced that it is better for me to listen to such conversations. That didn't stop me from making a handle that is very satisfying, at least for me, to use. No idea what the hang angle might be.

These are things we have to decide on for ourselves. My bench height compared to my standing height factored in with my arm angles will likely be different than all of those considerations for anyone else.

When we make a tool we have to make it our own. Having the same saw hang angle as Frank Klausz isn't what will make you as good of a cabinet maker as Frank Klausz.

jtk

[Judson Green]

For my first saw handle something like a try-saw handle was made. It was no where near as elaborate as the try-gun since it was for my own use. It was just a prototype handle made from a scrap piece of pine. No worries about much. If it was an embarrassment there is always a fire place to destroy the evidence.

After making the prototype handle it was used to practice my "air sawing." Any tight spots were also noted on my original template drawing. Also noted was the hold interface for where the sawing was going be done.

One idea that came to me was to cut a slot in this and then instal a blade held by one bolt to adjust the angle. Too much work and a degree or two difference isn't going to be the end of the world.

My knowledge of how to define a hang angle has me convinced that it is better for me to listen to such conversations. That didn't stop me from making a handle that is very satisfying, at least for me, to use. No idea what the hang angle might be.

These are things we have to decide on for ourselves. My bench height compared to my standing height factored in with my arm angles will likely be different than all of those considerations for anyone else.

When we make a tool we have to make it our own. Having the same saw hang angle as Frank Klausz isn't what will make you as good of a cabinet maker as Frank Klausz.

jtk

"Air-sawing" love it!

When ever I talk about things like this with my non-woodworking friends I get the blank stare, one of em said "dude, post it on your wood nerd site."

I know I've gotta just do it and that's just what I'm gonna do.

But I very much appreciate a few words of wisdom.

[Mike Siemsen]

Speaking only of back saws. The vast array of vintage saws had many different hang angles. In general, given the same pitch, rake, and fleam, the higher hang angles will be more aggressive. A saw with a hang angle of say 38* will seem to push easier than one with a 45* hang due to more horizontal force being applied on the 38*. A 32* hang angle would be easier yet. ( given the same pitch, rake and fleam ) There is also the question of stance/ body mechanics. Bottom line: See if you can find and try some saws with different hang angles and filings to get a better feel for what YOU like as well as what is comfortable in your hands.

I don't agree with Ron here. the most agressive saws have the lowest hang angles. Look at the relation ship to the toothline of a bucksaw or a felling saw. what about a large frame resaw where the handles are right at the toothline. These are the most agressive saws out there. The discussion on hang doesn't often include the fact the all of the characteristics of a saw change if you change one. What is typically seen is that the rake relaxes as the hang goes up , a Gabriel saw from the 18th century has the handle right down near the toothline and a 0 degree rake. A more modern Disston with it's higher hang angle would have a 4 degree or more angle of rake. Since it takes far less power to run a 10 inch backsaw with its tiny teeth the handle can behigher on the saw.

[Judson Green]

So I turned off the internet for a while...

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Critique welcome.

[Jim Koepke]

So I turned off the internet for a while...

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Critique welcome.

So far it looks like you did well.

How is the comfort in your hand?

jk

[Jim Koepke]

I don't agree with Ron here. the most agressive saws have the lowest hang angles. Look at the relation ship to the toothline of a bucksaw or a felling saw. what about a large frame resaw where the handles are right at the toothline. These are the most agressive saws out there. The discussion on hang doesn't often include the fact the all of the characteristics of a saw change if you change one. What is typically seen is that the rake relaxes as the hang goes up , a Gabriel saw from the 18th century has the handle right down near the toothline and a 0 degree rake. A more modern Disston with it's higher hang angle would have a 4 degree or more angle of rake. Since it takes far less power to run a 10 inch backsaw with its tiny teeth the handle can behigher on the saw.

Now I am really confused.

If the handle is at 90º to the tooth line is that a high angle or is that zero hang?

(see why I was staying out of this? :eek:)

jtk

[Judson Green]

So I turned off the internet for a while...



So far it looks like you did well.

How is the comfort in your hand?

jk


Golly, I guess I really did turn off the internet. :D

Jim, it feels great in my hand better than I thought a first try would.

[Ron Bontz]

I don't agree with Ron here. the most agressive saws have the lowest hang angles. Look at the relation ship to the toothline of a bucksaw or a felling saw. what about a large frame resaw where the handles are right at the toothline. These are the most agressive saws out there. The discussion on hang doesn't often include the fact the all of the characteristics of a saw change if you change one. What is typically seen is that the rake relaxes as the hang goes up , a Gabriel saw from the 18th century has the handle right down near the toothline and a 0 degree rake. A more modern Disston with it's higher hang angle would have a 4 degree or more angle of rake. Since it takes far less power to run a 10 inch backsaw with its tiny teeth the handle can behigher on the saw.

Just to reiterate..."given the same pitch, rake, and fleam" also I have said each hang angle, what ever it is, will have a range of optimal functionality and some of it is based on the user preference, body mechanics, etc. The lower hang saws were filed with a more aggressive rake because they had more force forward vs. the downward force of a higher hang angle. Vector analysis clearly shows this. Either way, it comes down to what best works for you and as someone once said, " if you don't like the way it cuts, you can always refile it." Indeed. :)

[lowell holmes]

All this talk confuses me unless I can see a graphic. I posted two images in another string titled "Hangangle"

The last image I posted shows my current understanding. I'm still not sure, but I think it is correct.

I checked some saws that I have. IIRC, an old D-4 Disston has 28 degrees hang angle. My Lie Nielsen carcass saw has 40 degrees hang angle. The LN is definitely more aggressive on the cut.

[Judson Green]

To further your confusion, and mine and everyone else's, I've seen it measured two ways. And both seem logical.

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I haven't the foggiest which way is prefered or why.

[Isaac Smith]

Judson, I prefer the first way of measuring it since it shows the relationship between the thrust vector and the toothline. It just seems a little more intuitive to me (and it makes calculations slightly easier if you choose to do them). In the end, it doesn't really matter since the angles are comlementary.


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[Jim Koepke]

I am standing by my earlier statement of confusion on this.

In theory the applied force may be in a straight line. In practice my sawing force is affected by the angling of my wrist and the pressure or lack thereof by the heel of my hand on the lower back horn and the same for my pinky finger on the lower inner horn combined with the web between my thumb and forefinger on the upper back horn.

I don't give a hang about the angle as long as the saw works well and is comfortable to use.

jtk

[Judson Green]

On Isaac's page he says something to the effect that the sawer just learns/adapt's to the saw. Aside from some wacky unusable hang angle I'm sure that's true.

"Just go with it, man"

Edit: I apologize, I can't seem to find what I'm talking about and may be wrongly paraphrasing Isaac.

[Wayne Hendrix]

On Isaac's page he says something to the effect that the sawer just learns/adapt's to the saw. Aside from some wacky unusable hang angle I'm sure that's true.

"Just go with it, man"

Where is this page you speak of?

[Jim Koepke]

It looks like a bigger saw would want the lower angle to maintain motion when cutting larger pieces.

With a more aggressive, downward thrusting cut the saw might stall out in a large log.

jtk

[Ron Bontz]

Jim,
Although most saws and some larger back saws go for the center of the tooth line, it varies a little. A lower hang saw may intersect the tooth line more forward of the center point. Hand saws in general have a lower grip height.This allows for better balance and a more aggressive rake with more of a forward force. ( Horizontal Component ) This also helps to focus the downward force on the center of the plate distributing the downward force of cutting/scraping more evenly along the tooth line. Hope that makes sense. If not, back to the Mississippi I go.:D No doubt some one out there in cyber land will have a more eloquent way of stating this.

[Mike Allen1010]

In general, the shorter the saw, the higher the hang angle will be. As the hang angle is increased (by rotating the handle), the height of the handle above the spine is also increased.

It's rather fortuitous how this all works out. Shorter saws need a higher hang so that you can direct some of the forward thrust down into the teeth. Shorter saws also tend to have shallower blades, so the increased height of the handle provides clearance at the end of the blade.

That said, the height of the handle above the spine is almost totally irrelevant. If you are concerned about the height of the handle, the toothline is a far more significant reference.

All of these are largely a matter of personal preference, and you will most likely be able to adapt to a range of fits. Your best bet is to look backwards and pick a pattern that pleases your eye (just make sure that it comes from a comparably sized saw).

For what it's worth, the third one is pretty close to what I use in my 10" dovetail saws. It seems to agree with most people who try it out. The one in your picture looks like the hang angle is a little higher than mine, though. If I were starting with that template, I would probably lower it a few degrees. But that's where personal preference comes into play.

+1 to everything Isaac said. You cannot go wrong with his saws they are IMHO fantastic in design, build execution and use.

Mike

[Pedder Petersen]

Hi Ron and Mike, I think you both describe the same effects but looking from different points of view. I thinkk there are 4-5 elements to increase or lower fastnes/agresivness:

1. Rake: low rake = fast/ high rake = slow
2. Pitch (tpi): low pitch = fast / high pitch slow
3. Spine weight: high weight= fast / low weight slow
4. hang angle: high angle = agressive / low angle not agressive
5. Handle position over tooth line: High = agressive / low not agressive

If you combine a heavy spine with a high hang angle and a coarse pith, you will get to the point, when a saw is too agressive to saw (don't aks how I found that out.) A hand saw without spine can get away with coarser pitch and a higher hang angle and position. So yes Fast saws have low handles, but that is because the couldn't saw with a high handle. A Gramercy dovetailsaw is extremly light and so can saw with an very high handle.



BTw I wonder why dominics page with the wonderful patterns isn't linked, when his patterns are shown: http://www.tgiag.com/saw-handle-scans.html

Nice handle!
288839
(I know, because I own the original.)

Cheers Pedder

[Judson Green]

BTw I wonder why dominics page with the wonderful patterns isn't linked, when his patterns are shown: http://www.tgiag.com/saw-handle-scans.html

Nice handle!
288839
(I know, because I own the original.)

Cheers Pedder


Cuz I wasn't sure if we could link to sites like that, but yup that where it got it. Making the other Moses Eadon handle for my tenon saw, fit is just a little tighter, but I can fix that. I like those designs.

[Ron Bontz]

Hi Ron and Mike, I think you both describe the same effects but looking from different points of view. I thinkk there are 4-5 elements to increase or lower fastnes/agresivness:

1. Rake: low rake = fast/ high rake = slow
2. Pitch (tpi): low pitch = fast / high pitch slow
3. Spine weight: high weight= fast / low weight slow
4. hang angle: high angle = agressive / low angle not agressive
5. Handle position over tooth line: High = agressive / low not agressive

If you combine a heavy spine with a high hang angle and a coarse pith, you will get to the point, when a saw is too agressive to saw (don't aks how I found that out.) A hand saw without spine can get away with coarser pitch and a higher hang angle and position. So yes Fast saws have low handles, but that is because the couldn't saw with a high handle. A Gramercy dovetailsaw is extremly light and so can saw with an very high handle.



BTw I wonder why dominics page with the wonderful patterns isn't linked, when his patterns are shown: http://www.tgiag.com/saw-handle-scans.html

Nice handle!
288839
(I know, because I own the original.)

Cheers Pedder

Hi Pedder. Yes I agree. I seem to have deleted my last post with diagrams, while trying to replace a graphic. Good project for the web site, I think. I do have a couple of diagrams on my site under "Ramblings" As you have said indirectly at least. All these things work in unison. My analogy is this: The hang angle is the band director. The pitch, rake, fleam, and set are the musicians in the band, fine tuning and playing the saw plate song. If they don't all play well together under the director's guidance the song will stink. But some times the director is wrong for the song as well. By the way, I like the over all shape of the tote. But I tend to like the beak of mine more closed.:) http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x395/ronb19571/IMG_1398b_zpsd4705ec4.jpg

[Mike Siemsen]

The original post asked,
How to you determine a pattern that's right for you?
Trial and error? Or is there a some kind of rules/formula a guy could follow?
My answer would be to try as many saws as you can to find the one that is right for you at this time in your career. Skilled sawyers use saws that beginners would find difficult to start and saw with. Everything about handsaws was figured out at a time when all the saws were handsaws.

What is hang? Hanging a tool means putting a handle on it, whether it is a saw, a hammer an axe or a scythe.

As to the aggressiveness issue. I will reiterate, The most aggresive(I am going to switch to effective) saws I know of are bucksaws, felling saws, pitsaws and frame resaws. The face of the tooth is 90 degrees to the toothline(0 degrees of rake) and the handle is right down on the toothline. All of the force is directed forward, the teeth are sharp and pull themselves into the wood. These saws require very sharp teeth to work well. Putting the handle further from the toothline will not make the saw more effective, it probably wouldn't work at all.
Consider a continental framesaw. No one talks about how they are hung. Watch someone using one, do they hold the frame low near the blade or higher up the frame? My experience shows lower near the blade where the user's effort is the most effective.

Rake is used to control the aggressiveness of a saw(once a saw is made you can't easily move the handle around or change the pitch but you can adjust the rake) if you move the handle away from the toothline you will probably need to relax the rake to make the saw work. This is because as you move the handle away from the toothline part of your energy is going into pushing the saw in to the wood, so while it seems like the saw is more aggressive, it is actually less effective because part of the energy is used to force the saw down rather than forward. A saw set up like this will continue to cut when it is a bit dull.

Pitch. The number of teeth per inch(in the old days pitch was what we now call rake) Selecting pitch has more to do with the thickness of the wood being sawn, rule of thumb is 4 to 6 teeth in the cut is about right. too few teeth in the cut and the cut will be ragged or even impossible, too many and you will never get done. Choose the saw that is the most appropriate and effective for the task.(1 inch board 4 to 6 ppi, 1/4 inch board 16 to 20 ppi)

Sharpness is the foremost feature of any saw, unless the saw is sharp you cannot judge any of the other features. Properly jointed/sharpened saws are the most effective.

Spine weight. All other things being equal I suppose there is some truth in this, but then the length of the saw and the total weight of the saw must be taken in to consideration as well. A heavy saw would take more energy to move back and forth and be less effective than a lighter saw, too light and the saw becomes flimsy.

A skilled sawyer can pick up a decent, sharp, saw, saw a few strokes and adjust his technique to the idiosyncrasies of that particular saw by how he applies force to the saw through the handle. A rookie sawyer would struggle to adjust. The only way to know which saw is right for you is to try it out. The sawyer and the skill of the sawyer, at using and maintaining his saws, is more important than the saw, but you can't buy skills.

[Peter Evans]

Hi Ron and Mike, I think you both describe the same effects but looking from different points of view. I think there are 4-5 elements to increase or lower fastness/aggresiveness:

1. Rake: low rake = fast/ high rake = slow
2. Pitch (tpi): low pitch = fast / high pitch slow
3. Spine weight: high weight= fast / low weight slow
4. hang angle: high angle = aggressive / low angle not aggressive
5. Handle position over tooth line: High = aggressive / low not aggressive

Cheers Pedder

Don't forget sharpness. A sharp saw needs less aggressiveness to saw well, therefore should not the aim be to get the hand as close to behind the saw as possible (as in 18th/19th century handsaws)? Backsaws have their own issues, as has been discussed, that requires 4. and 5. to be higher than handsaws.

Cheers
Peter

[Derek Cohen]

.....Skilled sawyers use saws that beginners would find difficult to start and saw with. .....

As to the aggressiveness issue. I will reiterate, The most aggresive(I am going to switch to effective) saws I know of are bucksaws, felling saws, pitsaws and frame resaws. The face of the tooth is 90 degrees to the toothline(0 degrees of rake) and the handle is right down on the toothline. All of the force is directed forward, the teeth are sharp and pull themselves into the wood. These saws require very sharp teeth to work well. Putting the handle further from the toothline will not make the saw more effective, it probably wouldn't work at all .....

Rake is used to control the aggressiveness of a saw(once a saw is made you can't easily move the handle around or change the pitch but you can adjust the rake) if you move the handle away from the toothline you will probably need to relax the rake to make the saw work. ....

.... Selecting pitch has more to do with the thickness of the wood being sawn

Sharpness is the foremost feature of any saw, unless the saw is sharp you cannot judge any of the other features. Properly jointed/sharpened saws are the most effective.

Spine weight. All other things being equal I suppose there is some truth in this, but then the length of the saw and the total weight of the saw must be taken in to consideration as well. A heavy saw would take more energy to move back and forth and be less effective than a lighter saw, too light and the saw becomes flimsy.

A skilled sawyer can pick up a decent, sharp, saw, saw a few strokes and adjust his technique to the idiosyncrasies of that particular saw by how he applies force to the saw through the handle. A rookie sawyer would struggle to adjust. The only way to know which saw is right for you is to try it out. The sawyer and the skill of the sawyer, at using and maintaining his saws, is more important than the saw, but you can't buy skills.

My emphasis.

Mike, I think that we are on the same page here.

I have been posting quite a bit lately about "centre of effort" in handplanes in an effort to describe a dynamic here, and did emphasise that this is also a feature of saws as well. This was an attempt to recognise that features can be designed in but that we also accommodate or adapt to the design and can alter the dynamic with hand placement.

I recently had a discussion with a professional planemaker about handle design, and we got onto handles of backsaws as well. I had with me a small crosscut joinery saw I had built and I was interested in his opinion. His comment was that the hang was right. I asked him what he meant by this. His reply was that a perpendicular line taken from the centre of the handle met the centre of the tooth line. I must admit that I was surprised by this overly one-dimensional comment as I was hoping for a review of the handle design - that is, how the handle shape and hang influenced sawing detail.

When we talk of rake we really mean "effective rake", since it is not just the angle at which the teeth are sawn, but the angle the teeth enter the wood. This is affected by whether the sawyer aims up, down or horizontally. Hang does the same. The difference between the hang of a Gramercy dovetail saw (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GramercyDovetailSaw.html) and a LN, for example, changes the effective rake considerably.

When I first used a LN dovetail saw about 10 years ago, its zero rake had me struggling. Mike Wenzloff refiled an IT (the original LN) for me adding fleam, and this smoothed the saw and, compared to the hard-to-start LN, it was silky smooth. But slower to cut. Today I prefer a zero rake. I enjoy the speed that this tooth configuration can offer. The LN (and others) have not changed their characteristics - just that I have learned how to use these saws. The LV, with its "relaxed" 14 degree rake (ideal for someone starting out), can cut more aggressively when one aims down (reducing the effective rake).

What does this say to the OP, who wishes to design a dovetail saw? Does he pick a relaxed tooth design or does he choose an aggressive rake and accommodate to it? Must he find a hang angle that meshes with one or the other? Or does it matter in the long run as practice levels it all out?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Isaac Smith]

When we talk of rake we really mean "effective rake", since it is not just the angle at which the teeth are sawn, but the angle the teeth enter the wood. This is affected by whether the sawyer aims up, down or horizontally. Hang does the same. The difference between the hang of a Gramercy dovetail saw (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GramercyDovetailSaw.html) and a LN, for example, changes the effective rake considerably.



I don't think that is a good characterization of what is happening in a saw. The concept of effective rake doesn't exist as it does with a plane. No matter how the saw is handled or held, the teeth and wood will always interact at the same angle.

Changing the hang of the saw will change the percentage of the force applied to the handle that is directed downward, but it does not change the rake angle.

Angling the saw up or down will also not change the rake angle. It may make a difference in how the fibers of the wood are cut, but that is a property of the wood, not a function of the rake angle of the tooth.

Drawing an analogy between planes and saws may make this easier to see. Here are three points of comparison.

1. To change the effective pitch of a plane, it is necessary to skew the plane. We've all done this and experienced the decreased effort of the slicing cut. But you can't do this with a saw, as the blade is captured by the kerf in the wood.

2. Changing the hang of a saw is analogous to changing the angle of the tote on a plane. While it may change the effort needed to push the plane, no one would ever claim that it changes the effective pitch.

3. Sawing up, down, or horizontally is akin to turning a plane around to approach the grain from a different angle. Planing with or against the grain can lead to very different results and effort, but again, no one would claim that these results arise from a change in the effective pitch of the plane. Rather, they are due to the anisotropic nature of wood.


In the end, these are all fairly minor points. I think sometimes we (myself very much included) think too much about these things. There really is a fairly wide and established range of practical saw geometry that has been worked out over the centuries, and most people should be able to learn how to use most any of them. Just pick something and stick with it for a while and you will probably be ok.

[Mike Siemsen]

I think sometimes we (myself very much included) think too much about these things. There really is a fairly wide and established range of practical saw geometry that has been worked out over the centuries, and most people should be able to learn how to use most any of them. Just pick something and stick with it for a while and you will probably be ok.

yup. This is true for most handtool discussions. I find the best information often resides in writings from a time before electricity was common. I also find that most saw problems can be fixed with a file, as Derek descibes above.