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Tim Bateson
04-29-2014, 6:56 PM
I'm bidding on a project to place metal markers on every grave at a local graveyard. They are wanting etched Stainless Steel, I'm trying to sell something I can produce. I know Cermark is UV stable, but they are wanting detailed specs that I can't find. To quote them, "the plates should have a life of at least 100 years". Of-course I know of no tests on metal that would meet that certification.

Any suggestions for specs or an alternative metal plate?

Dan Hintz
04-29-2014, 7:54 PM
Even military specs don't go so far as 100 years, even with stainless...

Tim Bateson
04-29-2014, 8:15 PM
I don't think they really need a 100 year guarantee, but they need to know with some certainty that they won't have to go through this process again during their administration/career.

I should add - this is a very old graveyard and many of the grave stones have started to ware away. They want to insure every grave is legibly marked.

David Somers
04-29-2014, 8:25 PM
Tim,

Can't Cermark give you some kind of figures? Any test results are going to be extrapolated to a large degree for that time span anyway.

I would think the best things would be deeply engraved anyway. Stone of some sort. Or deeply engraved Stainless. If you think of it, Stainless Steel itself was only invented in 1913 so it is barely a 100 years old as a alloy.

Dave

Kev Williams
04-29-2014, 8:49 PM
Cermark will last indefinitely, in the absence of abrasion. Problem is, wind and rain are abrasive. But I can't see wind and rain removing Cermark within 100 years. Foot traffic wouldn't help, but still, I think Cermark would wear well for many years...

The best option for life span is one you don't want-- Engraving the the stainless (by tool or laser), followed by Cermarking the engraving. That would be about as permanent as you could get.

Tim Bateson
04-29-2014, 8:53 PM
...Can't Cermark give you some kind of figures? Any test results are going to be extrapolated to a large degree for that time span anyway.

I would think the best things would be deeply engraved anyway. Stone of some sort. Or deeply engraved Stainless. If you think of it,...

I've looked everywhere and have found some good specs on Cermark with tests for everything from acid to heat exposure, but nothing that states UV exposure life expectancy. Deeply engraved is what they want & if I can't come up with an alternative, I'll then attempt to outsource that work.

Either way I intend to win this project. The advantage I have, is I already do multiple types of work for them & this project came up in conversation while up-selling another project to them.

Bill Cunningham
04-29-2014, 9:58 PM
Tell them what stainless marked with Cermark costs, and then what stainless deep engraved costs. Unless their a wealthy organization, after they pick themselves up off the floor, their gonna go with the Cermark..

greg lindsey
04-30-2014, 2:56 AM
Tim I have two stainless steel plates outside my office. Both were cermarked , one left as is and the other I coated with a clear coating that Ferro recommended, bolted to a wall in the direct sun, uncoated did slightly fade over about 10 yrs but certainly usable , both were put up within a week of each other, the coated one looks as good today as is was new. Possibly a little yellowing in the clear coating, but only at the right angle. I don't have anymore but if you contact Dennis at Ferro he can tell where to get it. If memory serves it was not cheap (maybe like a military grade) really good stuff.

Dave Sheldrake
04-30-2014, 7:12 AM
RubberStamp font cut right through 2mm stainless isn't coming off any time soon. Stainless is a missnomer, the original product was called "Stains Less" and will be highly dependant on the grade. 316L will almost certainly survive 100 years + (PWR pressure vessels are made from it).

About the only thing that will cause significant corrosion is Dog Pee, (yes literally) due to the Urea content.

ALL stainless corrodes, the problem is more likely to come from the boundary layer between the Cermark and metal when it is produced, as the bond is ionic and not mechanical it's only going to be activity before or while the bond is forming that causes the problems.

cheers

Dave

Keith Outten
04-30-2014, 7:59 AM
The lifespan of Stainless Steel is shortened considerably when it is exposed to salt. Thus any type of animal excrement will be a serious problem including bird droppings. Shipyards tried using Stainless Steel piping on their piers decades ago in hopes that it would last longer than carbon steel but Stainless actually had a shorter lifespan due to the salt water. The solution was to use inconel which is almost as expensive as a precious metal but it lasts for generations.

Soft stone such as marble or sandstone can be laser engraved to a depth that would last one hundred years if you have at least an 80 watt machine. Soft stone is also easy to CNC route to a depth that would last for at least a couple hundred years or more.

If Stainless Steel is the only approved option it can be rotary engraved to a depth that would easily last a century or more. I would also suggest you consider an embossed stainless dog tag style plate, although it won't be very attractive it should be easy to find a company you can outsource the plate fabrication.

Chris DeGerolamo
04-30-2014, 8:53 AM
What about Durablack?

Scott Shepherd
04-30-2014, 8:58 AM
I think laser engraving anything is the wrong method for this project. I'd be looking at a cast product. No amount of wear, UV, or abrasion is going to remove cast letters. Anything else would be cutting corners in my opinion.

Dave Gates
04-30-2014, 9:05 AM
What about acid etched zinc? I'm not sure about 100 years but they seem like they would last a very very long time. We get plates from Trademark Designs. If it needs to be stainless, I think a company called Gemini does etched stainless along with cast bronze tablets.

Dave Sheldrake
04-30-2014, 9:21 AM
Inconel!! Cheers Keith, that stuff still gives me nightmares :)

cheers

Dave

AL Ursich
04-30-2014, 2:30 PM
RubberStamp font cut right through 2mm stainless isn't coming off any time soon. Stainless is a missnomer, the original product was called "Stains Less" and will be highly dependant on the grade. 316L will almost certainly survive 100 years + (PWR pressure vessels are made from it).

About the only thing that will cause significant corrosion is Dog Pee, (yes literally) due to the Urea content.

ALL stainless corrodes, the problem is more likely to come from the boundary layer between the Cermark and metal when it is produced, as the bond is ionic and not mechanical it's only going to be activity before or while the bond is forming that causes the problems.

cheers

Dave

Great Thread... I have learned a few things that will come in handy someday....

AL

Kev Williams
04-30-2014, 4:21 PM
How long will a ceramic coffee cup last outdoors? That should be pretty much how long Cermark will last--

FWIW, I Cermarked a pair of dog tags for our mutts 8 years ago. Dijon's tag has been rubbing against an engraved aluminum tag the whole time...

The Cermark that has been rubbing the aluminum tag is gone. However, so is the engraving on the aluminum tag--it's almost completely smooth! They both wore each other out...