Can a shaper spindle be sleeved?

[Larry Edgerton]

I finally started cleaning up that Unitronix shaper today and the spindles that I was told were 1" are actually 1 1/8". Of course I had already ordered 2 sets of 1" x 1 1/4" bushings, so if you need some....

Anyway.... I was wondering if anyone has put a sleeve on a spindle? I hate messing with bushings so if I had a sleeve and bored my spacers I would not have to mess with them.

Another question: The two 3/4" spindles have a bit of rust on the tapers, not bad but some. Suggestions?

Larry

[Chris Fournier]

I'd do this in my machine shop without hesitation using my tool post grinder on the lathe. After the job was completed I would still run the spindle as if it had 1" capacity. It would be a somewhat expensive job to pay for if out sourced but on my own time and shop it would be green light. Call the MFG for pricing...

[Mark Wooden]

I think instead of trying to sleeve it you might look into having it spray welded and then turned (ground) down to 1-1/4". I think that a 1/16" walled sleeve would be tough to do and keep solid on the spindle. But then, I'm no machinist so......
You can clean the rust off the tapers with scotchbrite and then polish with some crocus cloth. Apply a very light coat of wax to keep the rust off.

[Peter Quinn]

I finally started cleaning up that Unitronix shaper today and the spindles that I was told were 1" are actually 1 1/8". Of course I had already ordered 2 sets of 1" x 1 1/4" bushings, so if you need some....

Anyway.... I was wondering if anyone has put a sleeve on a spindle? I hate messing with bushings so if I had a sleeve and bored my spacers I would not have to mess with them.

Another question: The two 3/4" spindles have a bit of rust on the tapers, not bad but some. Suggestions?

Larry

Seems easier to have the spindles turned down to 1" which should not be too complicated. Or buy bushings for 1 1/8". Adding essentially a 1/16" hollow pipe to a spindle sounds dicey precision wise. Is it worth having a custom spindle turned? I looked into buying a 3/4" spindle for my Paolini, OEM, I got the sense they make them to order, still available but almost $900 delivered. Good by 3/4" tooling for me. Did they ever actually make 1 1/8" tooling?

http://www.oellasawandtool.com/products/1%252d1%7B47%7D8%22--ID-x-1%252d1%7B47%7D4%22-OD-short-T%252dBushing-set.html Cheapest solution?

[David Kumm]

Bobby at Woodworkers Tool Works in Melrose WI will either turn bushings or make an entire spindle. 1 1/8" is a terrible size, can't be turned into 30mm which is the other useful size. Bigger cutters run 40 and 50mm bores. I'd cut the spindle to 3/4" for small cheap cutters and have one made at 1.25" Dave

PS long sleeves from 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 can be done but are expensive due to the length and need to be exact. A spindle isn't much more.

[Benjamin Miller]

This part of the spindle just keeps the parts centered, doesn't it? All the force to the cutters should be transferred through the bottom and the nut on top.

I would probably turn an oversized sleeve with a light interference fit, press it on, and turn it down to the desired diameter. Grinding on a shaper spindle should only be necessary for the taper, and you're not messing with that here.

As for the rust, I would use a brass wire wheel to remove it and then mark the taper with Dykem or a Shapie and check for full contact. You could also use some fine abrasive paper in a lathe, if you have one (can be very dangerous! A wooden nutcracker around the part is the safest way.) It takes forever to remove even a thousandth of an inch when using 220 grit paper.

[Larry Edgerton]

Thank you gentlemen.

I was not liking the idea of bushings or a sleeve with a 1/16 wall. I have done this on saw arbors before but the repair was short and not nearly as critical in my mind. I do need to get by for a little while till work picks up so I suppose I will order some bushings.

I will investigate this spray welding thing, I have no experiance with it but I know they do it on crankshafts so it must be fairly tough.

David, I did check out Woodworkers Tool Works and will have at least one spindle made when I can. I think at the same time I will have them grind down one of the 1 1/8" spindles to 1" so I will have all sizes covered from 3/4" to 1 1/4" I have two 3/4" spindles that came with the machine.

My tractor will only lift 2K so I have had a hard time getting a fork lift out there big enough, but today its going in the shop. I'll wire it up and make sure everything works as it should as it should, and then I can sell one of my old shapers to pay for the spindle work.

I have an old metal lathe, not precise enough to make any serious parts, but good enough to use for clean up. I'm cleaning up the posts from the feeder this morning and will think about a way to clean up the tapers while I do that. The rust is only on one side which makes it tough.

I have been rearranging my shop to fit in a smaller footprint, sold two jointers and have the Minimax 12" in there now, selling two tablesaws and keeping the Minimax SC10 with an eye to buying a new slider and using the SC10 as the general purpose, sold my T40 and will sell my T3 when I know this beast works well. Selling off some other things I do not use much any more like my RN700. I have been waiting for work to pick up here and it just is not getting much better so its time to get smaller yet. I'd like to get down to about 1000 ft of full time heated space and then use the 1700 ft for occasional heated use and wood storage.

There seems to be less and less call for precision work and as I am unable to compromise I need to keep overhead down so I can get by on less. I am thinking of trying something on the internet, doors maybe. My customer base seems to be nervous about spending money right now, and that is making me nervous. Customers that never wanted to know what something costs are really watching their pennies right now around here. I guess I had it made for many years as I never had to bid anything, just send me a bill. Seems that is over.

I'm rambling.......

Thanks for the thoughts again, I value you guys input.

Larry

[David Kumm]

Larry, how about a pic of the spindle? I would like to see how they compare to what I'm used to. Dave

[Mark Wooden]

Larry, how about a pic of the spindle? I would like to see how they compare to what I'm used to. Dave

Yes, good idea, chances are it has a standard taper for the spindles and you could get one from another supplier/manufacturer

[Mel Fulks]

One might turn up. We got a price once to get one made and it was way too expensive ,I think it was around $1200. We were impressed with how seriously the company took the request . In just a day or two we had a drawing and thorough specs,so they did put some time in it.

[Rod Sheridan]

I finally started cleaning up that Unitronix shaper today and the spindles that I was told were 1" are actually 1 1/8". Of course I had already ordered 2 sets of 1" x 1 1/4" bushings, so if you need some....

Anyway.... I was wondering if anyone has put a sleeve on a spindle? I hate messing with bushings so if I had a sleeve and bored my spacers I would not have to mess with them.

Another question: The two 3/4" spindles have a bit of rust on the tapers, not bad but some. Suggestions?

Larry

Of course, mine came from the factory with a choice of 1 1/4" and 30mm sleeves, I have both sets and use both.......Rod.

[Larry Edgerton]

I am ashamed to admit that I have not figured out how to post pictures since I switched to Windows 8. I can't get them out of the gallery. Hate computers.......

I worked on the machine today. Found an awesome way to clean the rust off of parts. I had some rapid oxidizer stuff from working on cars that eats the rust and leaves the good steel alone. Tried it on some spacers, let them soak for a couple of hours while I did something else and they came out perfect. I am going to try it on one of the 3/4" spindles tomorrow but have to come up with a cup tall enough to hang it in. Comes out a gray color that buffs right up nicely.

The big ring on this shaper is 17", book says it will swing a 360mm cutter. The big ring must weigh close to 100 pounds. Its like a manhole cover! The hood bolts to the big ring and there is a lock that holds it in place. The cool thing about this is that you can loosen the lock and swing the hood/ring 360 degrees. So using this as two separate shapers will not be a problem. An angled approach looks to be the best solution. Feeder is mounted between the spindles and should work in any arrangement.

I got the spindle nuts all cleaned up and put the posts from the feeder on the lathe to clean them up, got that working and back together. Will need tyres at some point, what would be the best for hardwoods AND Azek?

Parts of the original fences are still with it and it is a material that I have never seen before. Its very dark, extremely dense, and hard to tell if it is natural wood or some crazy sort of plywood/resin. It looks like it could be about 20 plys in an inch thick product, but not sure.[didn't have glasses] Its a deep burgundy in color. Whatever it is I would like to get my hands on some. Its even more dense than that Duraplank that pattern makers use.

Later, Larry

[David Kumm]

My Martin T21 uses the same rotating ring to fence system. Does the fence have adjustment on both sides? I have both the blue and yellow urethane feeder tires and both work well. Western Roller or Axiom are the supplier, among others. What is the lubricating system for the quills? Is it an oil system or grease? You will not find a heavier build than what you have. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

David, received you're email. I will send a picture of the spindle to you so you can forward to your friend to compare. Try to get a pic tomorrow if I get time.

There is a panel on the front of each individual shaper with six grease fittings, upper, lower quill bearings, cylinder bushing, lift mechanism parts.

There is a pair of huge machined bosses on one end like there was a tenoning table option, but I have not found any picture of this machine with one on it. Then again, I have not seen many pictures of this machine. This one, and one other. This area was not painted so it was obviously for something. Manual mentions an FN-25 tenoning devise.

There are fine adjustments on both sides of both hoods with about 4" of adjustment.

Interchangeable spindles are Morse #5's

[David Kumm]

Very similar. The Martin has oil bath spindle bearings ( Velocite 10 ) and uses motor oil for the quill. You need a special oiler with a tiny ball that when depresses squirts oil. I'm assuming no manual? Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

On some of the heavy European shapers you could attach a sliding table and tenoning hood. With this setup you would rotate your fence 90 degrees from the front and do the tenoning on the side of the machine. This is why the large outer ring rotates. I've never seen the full setup in person, only in catalogs and it's pretty impressive, though certainly not for the faint of heart! My guess is that a lot of the shops that bought these machines over here opted not to buy the sliding tables or tenoning setups as they seem incredibly rare on this side of the pond. You do see them a bit more frequently on machines for sale overseas.

I agree about not sleeving the spindle. Just doesn't make sense from a financial standpoint to me. Your investing in precision machining to get it just right, and it merely acts as a bushing while not providing the additional mass needed for larger cutters. I think in the long run your better off having the 1-1/4" spindle custom made. Assuming you can't find one….don't forget to look closer to where the machines came from for used spindles! It's a long shot, but still worth keeping an eye out.

Sounds like your fence is one of the better ones. If it's like the Martin you can adjust the 2 faces in and out very precisely to each other, but also by leaving one of the fence bolts locked you can move the whole fence in and out from the spindle in very precise fashion. If so once you've used this fence for a while you will not want to go back to the basic fences!

Lastly as David said the yellow tires work great for just about everything wood. A very good investment!

good luck,
JeffD

[Brian W Smith]

Not to answer the OP but,I'd be seriously considering getting/figuring out the taper specs on the spindle you have.....and then go find the closest,slightly larger,spindle from another shaper.Then grind it to match yours.

[Mark Wooden]

Interchangeable spindles are Morse #5's

Larry, do you mean they're an MK 5 spindle taper? If so that's a pretty easy taper to get from several manufacturers, you should have no trouble getting an 1-1/4" spindle.

[David Kumm]

288298Here are some spindles. The third is a SCMI which should be similar to Larry's. Missing is the Martin spindle which is very similar but with a slightly longer taper, different threads, and enough differences that the SCMI and the Martin can not be modified to fit the other. To add more complications, SCMI made spindles for different machines that look identical until you fit it into the quill and they don't quite bottom out. The two smaller spindles in the pic have the weakness of being hollow with a bolt inside, and the Felder spindle, while being by far the easiest to swap bearings on, necks down to a fairly small diameter at the pulley. Maybe not relevant but on larger diameters, 1.25" to 40 and 50mm the spindle is larger than the drive diameter. Long way of saying it is difficult to modify existing spindles to fit other machines. I've tried and failed . I'm betting Larry has some large spindles and they will need to be turned from blanks. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

Ok, its alive! Got the plugs I needed to wire it up today and it ran, backwards. The last two machines I bought also ran backwards and I followed the instructions to the letter. I finally figured out that the electricians that wired up my converter wired it backwards, so from now on I will have to remember to switch the red and black. Now I have to make an extension cord for my planer, and I'll have to think about that.....

The machine is smooth as silk. Both motors run perfectly. Forward and reverse work as advertised, except backwards, but I will deal with that tomorrow.

That rapid oxidizer worked perfectly on the worst spindle taper, in fact maybe too good. I left it submerged for 3 hours and all the rust was just gone. Buffed it and gave it a light coat of oil. I slipped it in to see how it fit with no nut, and I can't get it out. I guess that's why in the manual they tell you to thread the nut onto the spindle first. Best way to get it out? Apparently the nut loosens up the spindle when both threads are engaged. I like to learn by my own mistakes..........

Tomorrow I have to put my SC10 back together and get it out of the way and I will run some wood through this thing.

Oh ya, David I have a copy of the manual, if your buddy needs one let me know and I'll send him a copy. From what I can tell the single spindles are built the same way.

Later, Larry

[David Kumm]

Turns out my Friend has a Stahle which is German. His jointer is Gomad, Fortis, Unitronix whatever. If you ever have the chance, I'd like a copy of at least part of the manual. I keep track of how different machines compare. My Martin manual is pretty crappy and I'm betting the machines are pretty similar. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

David you posted while I was typing.

The #5 Morse taper is 1.748 inches at the top, but on this machine there is a large threaded hunk of metal that a heavy nut threads on to. By heavy I mean close to 4"diameter and two+ inches deep. The top set of threads screw into the spindle, the bottom and larger set screw into the quill above the bearing. I forgot my camera today, will get a pic tomorrow. I also am going to send you a sample of the fence material to see if you have ever seen it before. Can send a copy of the manual for your compadre at the same time if you like.

None of those spindles in the pic appear big enough to convert. I do not mind the cost, just not right now. If that bid comes in, then I will do it, but no work, no spenda da mulla. I want to think about what I want under the nut, etc, etc. before I order.

The fences look like copies of old Martin fences I have seen, as do other things such as the spindle raising system.

Larry

Ok, typing at the same time again. I will send you a copy of the complete manual just for your curiosity. Actually the manual is magnitudes better than any I have ever gotten from SCM. Apparently the Italians should get Poles to write their manuals.

[Andrew Joiner]

Ok, its alive!

The machine is smooth as silk. Both motors run perfectly. Forward and reverse work as advertised, except backwards, but I will deal with that tomorrow.



Congratulations Larry.You deserve it.

Didn't the add you bought it from say it would be a great 3'x7' heavy duty welding table if it didn't run?

You got a good deal and took a gamble,but what a cool payoff!

[David Kumm]

You did well. Sounds like you need some 250mm tooling to test it. Have you tested for runout. Bet that is pretty low too. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

I checked all four spindles today, in both quills. Three did not move the needle at all and one moved it a half of a thousandth. Interesting thing I checked out was that I could bend the two 1 1/8" spindles about 4/1000 the 3/4" spindles about 13/1000. Not scientific, I was just trying to lean on them about the same. Was just curious.

Larry

[Mark Wooden]

Sounds like you're getting it down to the fines now, congrats Larry. 250mm tooling? That'll get your heart pumping!

Just for drill, here's a pic of an MK 5 spindle-

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