chopping a mortice with a regular bench chisel?

[Matthew N. Masail]

I assume most of you have seen the video on the tube by Paul Sellers showing how it's faster and cleaner for him to chop a 3\8 (I think it was 3\8) mortise with a regular chisel than with a heavy mortise chisel.


what do you think of that? I currently have no "beater" chisels, and I'm thinking if I should get a cheapish bench chisel to try or a heavy mortise chisel.


if a cheapish bench chisel, what would you recommend as a chopper?

[Jim Koepke]

what do you think of that?

To each their own?

If it was faster and cleaner, there wouldn't be much of a reason or market for mortise chisels.

Before having any mortise chisels I would cut some mortises with bench chisels. Now that I have mortise chisels I tend to use them. Wish I could afford a 3/4" and 1" mortise chisel.

jtk

[Chris Fournier]

I've chopped mortises with both. They don't call 'em mortising chisels for nothing.

[Jim Koepke]

They don't call 'em mortising chisels for nothing.

Maybe Mr. Seller's next video will be paring dovetails with a mortise chisel, sharpened on 120 grit sand paper.

jtk

[Chris Fournier]

Maybe Mr. Seller's next video will be paring dovetails with a mortise chisel, sharpened on 120 grit sand paper.

jtk

Most likely, and woodworkers everywhere will be rushing out for 120 paper and...

PEOPLE! Dare to learn the basics. Put your money where your mouth is and for crying out loud go to your shop and actually try this stuff! Then for the LOVE OF PETE make something out of wood as best you can! The internet has spawned plenty of "experts", it has yet to alter truth even though it presents it in various shades of BS and self interest.

How is it that rational, intelligent, and intuitive adults can be swayed by ridiculous, self aggrandizing web garbage?

Your bench time will not lie to you!

Just Do it. Okay, I'm not proud of that, the just do it thing that is.

[Christopher Charles]

Mr. Seller's demonstration using a regular chisel to demonstrate the process is valuable in that it encourages folks to do exactly that--go out an try it--without getting too hung up on fancy equipment.

That said, I've bent and chipped the same chisel he uses recently cleaning out mortises. Hence, I'll be ordering some proper chisels soon, but continue to work with what I have.

From my reading, Narex is the best buy, RI is widely regarded as the best. LN not suitable.

Good luck.

[Derek Cohen]

To the unknowing eye, this comparison must look like magic - the simple bench chisel out speeding the specialist mortice chisel. However there is a simple explanation.

Quite simply, the comparison is not apples vs apples. Paul Sellers used a thick English Oval Bolstered Mortice Chisel with a 30 degree primary bevel. The modern recommendation is to use a 20 degree primary bevel with a small 35 degree secondary bevel. This provides easier entry into the wood along with a beefed up edge. Any bevel edge chisel will have a slimmer profile than the thick EOB mortice chisel Sellers used. That is went speedily through the wood in comparison is really no surprise now.

What Sellers also mentioned, and a point that is played down or missed completely in subsequent discussion, is that the bevel edge chisel missed out on the advantages of the mortice chisel: the BE chisel is difficult to prevent from twisting (this is the reason why the EOB mortice chisel is designed with a deep blade. It is not just for strength). Also, there is a strong likelihood that the BE chisel will bend as a result of the forces exerted when lifting out waste. This is really a method for the more advanced, not someone starting out.

Paul Sellers is trying to simplify and make less expensive the process of working of wood with handtools. That is good. However there are many "conjuring tricks" he uses to convince his audience of this. It can be done - and indeed these are skills that I believe most should be capable of - but the full picture is omitted.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Fournier]

Derek,

Just what I wanted: "conjuring tricks" to show me what is possible. No good teacher, especially "virtual" as in "web based" as in "lost in translation 'cause we ain't face to face" is doing anyone a favour by conjuring a process. This stuff is as simple as soap. You want to make a mortise that is usable as easily as possible with the greatest chance of success? Then use a chisel that has sides that register a larger surface and can stand a solid smack without deflecting - the mortising chisel.

I can make a workable mortise with either chisel, I have both chisels, I obviously have spent the $$$ and the time. I use a mortising chisel for mortises because it is faster and makes better mortises. I also use a rip saw for ripping and a cross cut saw for cross cutting. How banal, how effective.

What did Decartes say, something like "I stand on the shoulder of giants..."? A true genious giving props, these days everyone is demanding them. It does not move our craft forward one iota.

[steven c newman]

Would like to find a few in the wild. Til then, i use a few old beater bE chisels. Actually I use a couple per mortise, the skinny ones first, then pare the sides with a wide chisel. Haven't seen any twisting, either. used to drill out the waste, but found things went quicker IF I just marked the lines, chopped a bit, pared a bit , and cleaned it out. And have it done in the same amount of time as just the drilling out. Let alone, the chopping after the drilling.

A 1/4" "Fat Max" usually is my go-to for chopping. A "Made in China" wood handled 3/4, or 1' wide to pare. easy to sharpen, easy to use, beat the "H" out of, too.

[lowell holmes]

Well,

I was going to stay out of this, but I built two rocking chairs at Homestead Heritage when Paul was there. The first was a Craftsman Style rocker with IIRC 44 mortise and tenon joints. The other was the Brazos Rocker with 26 mortise and tenon joints. All of the joints in both chairs were chopped with Blue Handled Marple beveled edge chisels. The one inch square mortises in the arms of both chairs were chopped with a 1" beveled edge Marple chisel. The arm mortises on both chairs were good.

Paul's not trying to sell anything other than classes. I have witnessed his work being done, and he makes it look really easy and it is exceptional. I rate his skills equal to two other woodworkers I've witnessed working. I'm speaking about the Headley brothers from the Shenandoah Valley.

I hate seeing the bitterness in some of the posts.

[Chris Fournier]

Well,

I was going to stay out of this, but I built two rocking chairs at Homestead Heritage when Paul was there. The first was a Craftsman Style rocker with IIRC 44 mortise and tenon joints. The other was the Brazos Rocker with 26 mortise and tenon joints. All of the joints in both chairs were chopped with Blue Handled Marple beveled edge chisels. The one inch square mortises in the arms of both chairs were chopped with a 1" beveled edge Marple chisel. The arm mortises on both chairs were good.

Paul's not trying to sell anything other than classes. I have witnessed his work being done, and he makes it look really easy and it is exceptional. I rate his skills equal to two other woodworkers I've witnessed working. I'm speaking about the Headley brothers from the Shenandoah Valley.

I hate seeing the bitterness in some of the posts.

You've changed your post Lowell, I'm responding to your first cut. The message, my message with zero bitterness is learn the basics and understand the fundamental principals of our craft and you will succeed. There isn't one soul today that will revolutionalize how woodworking works with personal opinion whether they offer classes, blogs, radical new tools, or books. Fundamentals rule and haven't changed since they were discovered. Ability is available to anyone who earnestly pursues it. No bitterness, perhaps a little weariness.

[Shawn Pixley]

What did Decartes say, something like "I stand on the shoulder of giants..."? A true genious giving props, these days everyone is demanding them. It does not move our craft forward one iota.

It was Newton, but the analogy is apt.

[Brian Holcombe]

Having used both myself, the major plus of a mortise chisel is that it has wide sides which are very nice to help keep your mortise straight.

the mortise against glass demonstration does not consider that, because you can use the glass as a reference every time you set the chisel. In the real world you are maintaining a line without a hard reference.

I use LN chisels they work well, though given the choice a second time around I'd probably buy the ray Iles chisels.

[lowell holmes]

Chris,
Your post is not what prompted my post. There have been more than one string about Paul and his methods in this forum and a lot of statements made that I feel were extreme.

[lowell holmes]

And the LN chisels are square sided and the Ray Iles chisels are trapezoidal. I have both as well as numerous bench chisels.

I tend to use the Iles chisels, but just as often use the bench chisels.

For me, keeping the mortise straight is more of a matter of marking the mortise with a sharp gage and then picking the left or right line and carefully placing the chisel on that line.

[Jim Koepke]

Originally Posted by Chris Fournier

What did Decartes say, something like "I stand on the shoulder of giants..."? A true genious giving props, these days everyone is demanding them. It does not move our craft forward one iota.


It was Newton, but the analogy is apt.

I thought it was Einstein. Then it is one of those things that has been said by many or at least should have been.

Even things of my own making, that may seem original, are nothing more than a compilation of what has been learned from others.

Much of what may seem new today is often just a rediscovery of what may have been practiced by few or many a century ago.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

I was going to stay out of this, but I built two rocking chairs at Homestead Heritage when Paul was there. The first was a Craftsman Style rocker with IIRC 44 mortise and tenon joints. The other was the Brazos Rocker with 26 mortise and tenon joints. All of the joints in both chairs were chopped with Blue Handled Marple beveled edge chisels. The one inch square mortises in the arms of both chairs were chopped with a 1" beveled edge Marple chisel. The arm mortises on both chairs were good.

Paul's not trying to sell anything other than classes. I have witnessed his work being done, and he makes it look really easy and it is exceptional. I rate his skills equal to two other woodworkers I've witnessed working. I'm speaking about the Headley brothers from the Shenandoah Valley.

I hate seeing the bitterness in some of the posts.





Hi Lowell

I do hope that you did not read bitterness into my post. A little cynicism perhaps, but I like and respect Paul Sellers for his skills, enthusiasm and the the focus he brings to woodworking. Still, he is selling his classes, and some of his posts are misleading. Are they deliberately so? I am not sure, but they could have unfortunate side effects. For example, the video about the level of grit one can hone a blade to for woodworking (he compared three grits - I cannot recall the exact details - one being 250 and the top one 1000 grit). His point was to emphasise that there was no need to hone to high levels as the wood surface did not appear much different. What he omitted to note was the ease of planing - that is, sharper tools are easier and safer to use.

Many of Paul's devotees are newcomers to woodworking. That he attracts more and spreads the word is fantastic. That he can demonstrate that one can get into woodworking with a small outlay is equally fantastic. He pushes skills before tools, and in this I am a believer. But I am also not that naive to believe that he does not gain from this personally. Every Internet teacher has a schtick.

My criticism of the video on mortice chisels is that it is going to be interpreted by some as BE chisels as as good as traditional mortice chisels for morticing. For Paul Sellers they may be. He has 30 years of experience. For the odd mortice chopped into soft woods .. why not. But for regular morticing into medium to hard woods ...? Not for me, and I explained why in my earlier post. That is not an attack on Paul Sellers, just answering the question on technique raised by Matthew.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Matthew N. Masail]

I did not mean to start a war....... \-:


I was simply thinking if I should spend on a Ray Iles or something on my coming trip to the US or not, and wanted to hear thoughts on the subject. I do not think this is a dumb question for someone who has no experience in mortise and tenon work.


for the record I did buy a 1\2 narex mortise chisel a while ago to try out, only to discover it was too wide, if only I had asked - !

Thank you for all the info guys.

[Warren Mickley]

Matthew, one way of gauging the importance of a tool is its place in historical texts and inventories. Here are some examples.

Block plane- not a traditional tool not needed.
Sharpening jig- not a traditional tool, not needed
Granite plate- ditto ditto
Shoulder plane- ditto ditto

In contrast the mortise chisel is found across millennia and many cultures. Can we make a mortise without one? Yes we can. I made mortises in Maclura (Janka hardness 2300) when I had only two bevel edged chisels. However for neatness and speed, a mortise chisel is important.

[Derek Cohen]

...I was simply thinking if I should spend on a Ray Iles or something on my coming trip to the US or not, and wanted to hear thoughts on the subject. I....for the record I did buy a 1\2 narex mortise chisel a while ago to try out, only to discover it was too wide, if only I had asked - ! ...

Matthew, the RI chisels are excellent. If you are buying just one, I'd get a 1/4". That should do for most thicknesses around the 3/4" mark. A 1/2" mortice chisel is indicated for 1 1/2" thick stretchers (using the 1/3 Rule).

Incidentally, I use Paul Sellers' rounded bevel method for mortice chisels. Creating a 35 degree secondary bevel on a 20 degree primary bevel (as the RI chisels are set up to use) is difficult to do using a guide. The rounded bevel method is tailor-made for mortice chisels with a secondary bevel.

The only photo I have of this ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/5_zps59cd5b42.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[lowell holmes]

Derek, I did not read any bitterness in your thread at all.

I should not have responded as I did, but it seemed to me that he was being vilified. I am not in the class with you and Paul, and others in this forum.

I'm sure Paul appreciates all of the attention he is getting. :)

I will tell you that after chopping about 20 mortises in the Craftsman Rocker, my mortises were noticeably better than when I started.

[Prashun Patel]

"Standing on the shoulders of giants."

I thought it was Michael Stipe.

[David Weaver]

I would do as derek says, one RI in 1/4". That size isn't that expensive, and it's ultra useful for mortises in cabinet size furniture.

I come to the same conclusion as derek about the video, though we've been down this discussion before. It's almost like a pro wrestling promo to me, it's what paul sellers sells.

But the reality that I've found is that the RI chisel is far better for mortising than a bench chisel, at least as fast (faster for me) and the business end of it doesn't bear any resemblance to what paul sellers tried to use for a comparison. I'd go so far as to say that the RI chisels are the best mortising chisels I've used bar none.

[Chris Fournier]

Thanks for correcting my quote Shawn. I mix up Newton's "giants" and Descartes "good book.." quotes all of the time. Shame.

Lowell, I can see that my post could be interpreted as an attack on a person but I was and am strictly referring to standard woodowrking practices. I apologize if I raised blood pressures I should have stated this.

Truthfully if everyone would develop fundamental skills and understand why they work so much web traffic would be gone becasue we'd have the confidence to make the right decisions ourselves. Admittedly I could certainly lay out a better skills development path today than I set out upon self directed years ago.

[Sean Hughto]

This is an interesting touchstone for gauging the usefulness of tools, but perhaps does not always give the complete story for the present. To the extent we are making different sorts of things, or are using different metals in our tools and so forth, the 18th century joiners toolbox may not be the best touchstone. I could certainly do without the tools you list, but I would sorely miss my Japanese flush cut/ wood nail saw. I would miss my HSS lathe tools too. And so on.

[Roy Lindberry]

I assume most of you have seen the video on the tube by Paul Sellers showing how it's faster and cleaner for him to chop a 3\8 (I think it was 3\8) mortise with a regular chisel than with a heavy mortise chisel.


what do you think of that? I currently have no "beater" chisels, and I'm thinking if I should get a cheapish bench chisel to try or a heavy mortise chisel.


if a cheapish bench chisel, what would you recommend as a chopper?


My two cents: I've done it both ways, and have come to prefer the bevel edge chisels, mostly because they are not as fatiguing to use as my Narex mortise chisels (I really need to rework the handles on those guys). I can get fine results either way. I generally won't chop a mortise smaller than 3/8" with the bevel edge chisels, because I worry about bending the blade as I lever out the waste. The mortise chisels are used for the smaller mortices (of which I've only done a few).

You certainly don't need mortise chisels. It is more about technique than tooling at that point. If you know how to chop a mortise then the chisel isn't crucial: just make sure you aren't abusing the tool.

[Derek Cohen]

My two cents: I've done it both ways, and have come to prefer the bevel edge chisels, mostly because they are not as fatiguing to use as my Narex mortise chisels (I really need to rework the handles on those guys).

Roy, I am curious to know what angle the primary bevel is on the Narex mortice chisels?

If they are 30-35 degrees, then the amount of steel you are pushing into the wood is considerably more than the steel in the much thinner BE chisels. The extra effort might account for the fatigue you experience, not just the larger handles.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frank Drew]

Matthew, one way of gauging the importance of a tool is its place in historical texts and inventories. Here are some examples.

Block plane- not a traditional tool not needed.
Sharpening jig- not a traditional tool, not needed
Granite plate- ditto ditto
Shoulder plane- ditto ditto



Well, I'll let you have your premise with regards to sharpening jigs and granite plates, but I think beyond that you exceed the usefulness of your hypothesis. After all, if you go back far enough, the wheel was unknown.

Just for all-around woodworking, both on the job and in the shop, I'd certainly vote for a block plane before a mortise chisel if I had to choose only one (and assuming I could keep my bench chisels.)

[Brian Holcombe]

I don't prefer to lever out waste with the same chisels I want to rely on in another instance to be perfectly flat on the backside.

[David Weaver]

Well, I'll let you have your premise with regards to sharpening jigs and granite plates, but I think beyond that you exceed the usefulness of your hypothesis. After all, if you go back far enough, the wheel was unknown.

Just for all-around woodworking, both on the job and in the shop, I'd certainly vote for a block plane before a mortise chisel if I had to choose only one (and assuming I could keep my bench chisels.)

Goodness...I'd take the mortise chisel over the block plane even if the block plane was free and the mortise chisel full price.

I suppose most these days would choose the block plane, but I can't think of the last time I did something where I needed a block plane. I didn't *need* a mortise chisel, either, I suppose, but the appropriateness of the shape vs. a bench plane and the comparison of what a block plane does easily vs. what a stanley 4 will do the same...I can hardly even think of a place where I'd prefer to use the block plane over the stanley 4.

I sold all of my premium block planes. I haven't once thought "jeez, I wish I had one right now", but I have definitely regretted selling my RI mortise chisels (they were not the only ones I have, though).

[Jim Matthews]

I took the 9 day course in New York under Mr. Sellers instruction.

The class was also presented with a formica covered guide that was clamped in the vise
with the legs to be mortised. This made for a consistent offset and helped keep the chisels square.
The guide is clamped with the open side away from the user, and the same edge is kept tight
against the guide.

The bevel edged chisel will certainly twist, and try to follow a path that is least resistant.

The essential point of the demonstration is that you can get started with just bevel edged chisels.
I believe Mr. Sellers prefers to work this way, but as mentioned above, he does have years of experience.

I will use my basic Marples chisels to cut shallow mortises, but if the material is tough or I've got lots of mortises to cut,
a Jessem zipslot jig is a welcome appliance. Mortising absolutely wrecks my elbow in ways that chopping dovetails does not.

You can certainly do mortise with a bevel edge chisel, but they've got to be very sharp and a guide jig might be necessary.

http://orepass.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/mortise-guide/

288191

[Jim Koepke]

Goodness...I'd take the mortise chisel over the block plane even if the block plane was free and the mortise chisel full price.

If anyone tries to take away my block planes they will be repelled with my mortise chisels.

And should anyone attempt to take away my mortise chisels they will be vigorously pummeled by block planes held proudly in my clenched fists.
:eek:
jtk

[David Weaver]

Well, if I come across more block planes, I may show up at your shop, and throw the block planes on the floor to distract you and quickly take your mortise chisels (if I can get away with it :))

[Frank Drew]

Goodness...I'd take the mortise chisel over the block plane even if the block plane was free and the mortise chisel full price.

I guess that's why they make chocolate and vanilla. A small, true one-handed plane can be ever so useful in multiple situations; note that I included both on the job and at the bench use. You like a No. 4, which I don't, so your mileage clearly varies.

But my main point was the fallacy, IMO, of judging the importance (usefulness?) of a tool by "its place in historical texts and inventories"; that's like saying buggy whips, traditional, long history, therefore very important; computers, very new, not traditional, so not important.

[David Weaver]

I guess buggy whips would be a relevant comparison if we were talking about driving horses for pay in the 18th century vs. now, but it's really not the same.

It's more like comparing a forged chef's knife vs. a bread knife. The latter folks these days seem to think is essential, but I guess they haven't sliced bread with a sharp knife.

[Warren Mickley]

You very much missed my point, Frank. The mortise chisel is considered important not only here today, but is important in other woodworking traditions around the world and has been probably since the Bronze Age. If you think that a bevel edge chisel can replace it, it is hard to imagine that you are really familiar with its use.

[steven c newman]

I don't know about all of that sort of thing. I need some chopped out, so I grab just what I have on hand..288196Hey, it do work, for me. YMMV. Maybe one day, I can save enough to go and BUY a "real" mortise chisel.......

[Kim Malmberg]

My criticism of the video on mortice chisels is that it is going to be interpreted by some as BE chisels as as good as traditional mortice chisels for morticing. For Paul Sellers they may be. He has 30 years of experience. For the odd mortice chopped into soft woods .. why not. But for regular morticing into medium to hard woods ...? Not for me, and I explained why in my earlier post. That is not an attack on Paul Sellers, just answering the question on technique raised by Matthew.


I think Derek is spot on. I like Paul Sellers a lot. Having worked with Englishmen fro the north I don't think Sellers is trying to cheat anyone. I think the perspective Sellers is trying to add is that you don't have to own mortice chisels to chop mortices. I also think he wants to tell us you don't have to make it more diffucult than it has to. From my own experience I know this to be true for soft woods, but the few experiments I've tried with hardwood have not been very successful.
So yes, I agree that mortice chisels ( set up correctly) will be more efficient than regular ones. But what I do think Sellers tries to teach is that you don't have to own expensive tools to try out certain methods or techniques and what I fell is very refreshing about him is that less can really be more. I know I struggle with very hard woods, but to be honest I'm still trying to lawn some basic skills and hardwood isn't on top of my list to conquer. What I fell f so refreshing about Paul Sellers is that he teaches in a way that is is encouraging for beginners and that he (apart from several others) is a rally good teacher. There are many really good woodworkers on the web but very few are actually able to explain the basic steps to people who are struggling with the basics. And if Sellers is making money doing this I don't mind.

[Jim Koepke]

I took the 9 day course in New York under Mr. Sellers instruction.

The class was also presented with a formica covered guide that was clamped in the vise
with the legs to be mortised. This made for a consistent offset and helped keep the chisels square.
The guide is clamped with the open side away from the user, and the same edge is kept tight
against the guide.

The bevel edged chisel will certainly twist, and try to follow a path that is least resistant.

The essential point of the demonstration is that you can get started with just bevel edged chisels.
I believe Mr. Sellers prefers to work this way, but as mentioned above, he does have years of experience.

I will use my basic Marples chisels to cut shallow mortises, but if the material is tough or I've got lots of mortises to cut,
a Jessem zipslot jig is a welcome appliance. Mortising absolutely wrecks my elbow in ways that chopping dovetails does not.

You can certainly do mortise with a bevel edge chisel, but they've got to be very sharp and a guide jig might be necessary.

http://orepass.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/mortise-guide/

288191

That certainly doesn't look like any of my bevel edged chisels. Not many of my square edged chisels are that thick.

jtk

[George Vincent]

I have both the Narex bench chisels and mortise chisels, however prior to buying the mortise chisels I used my bench chisels. While they require a bit more work than the mortise chisels, creating a mortise is not impossible just a tad more difficult.

The skill is in the technique and not necessarily the chisel.

[Jim Matthews]

That certainly doesn't look like any of my bevel edged chisels. Not many of my square edged chisels are that thick.jtk

The photo is the only one I've seen to illustrate the guide block.
Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

[Dale Coons]

Well, I don't own any mortise chisels, but was able to make a 3/8 mortise in maple without any problems with a plain old buck bros 3/8 chisel that I had laying around using Seller's method. I suspect it would have been easier/purtier with a real mortise chisel. But if you watch enough of his videos, you'll find he isn't against any method of doing most things, he often shows several ways of doing any particular thing--often just to show you how you can do something if you don't have the 'official' tool. A recent video showed how to taper table legs with....a plane, a saw, a chisel, and an axe. Or another showing how you could do tenons with a saw, a chisel, or a router plane. So as one of the previously mentioned noobs, i'm glad to have a an example using an alternative tool, at least until I am able to acquire a few more.

[Sean Hughto]

Warren, I question including shoulder planes on your list. The tools are defined by being bevel up bedded at 15-20 degrees, and having very tight mouths, and tight body tolerances as the body often registers on other parts of the joint being worked. These attributes made the tool practically undoable until the manufacture of affordable metal planes came along. It might have been imagined, but couldn't be practically offered in wood.

[David Weaver]

I guess the immediate question would be, what do you need a shoulder plane for where a chisel or a rabbet plane isn't just as effective?

[Joel Moskowitz]

Block plane and the shoulder plane are from the 1850's (iron rebate plane being 30 or so years earlier)

Sharpening jig - about 1900 give or take.
Granite plate - last 10 years when cheap Chinese plate came on the market.

Chisels with ferrules and side bevels? About 1850
Machine saw timber - 1500's? actually earlier but water powered saw mills were fairly common (and high tech) pretty early on
Jennings auger bits? mid 19th century again
The circular saw was used in Portsmouth harbor in 1795 but until power transmission was solved it wasn't very common outside of sawmills and large factories.

I mean if you don't use a tool because it's not "Traditional" than you have to decided when "traditional" starts and be consistent. I mean at some point you are just being a reenactor (nothing wrong with that and it's fun) but the reason new tool designs came on the market was because they were more efficient than the designs they replaced. And in many cases the new tools filled a need enabling new technique. The reason real mortise chisels went out of production for about 50 years (WW2 - 2005 abouts) was because there was no demand and plenty of used ones on the market not because they don't work great. Shoulder planes came on the market and stayed on the market because they are real useful in joinery. Block planes - a tool I have never had the urge to own are still made and used because people find them useful.
Paul Sellers reflects one very valid point of view in instruction: If the cost of entry is too high then people won't do it. Other teachers want to teach classical methods that work so the learning curve results in the best efficiency long term - at a higher initial capital cost. You have to find the teacher that speaks to you. Both approaches are perfectly valid - but might not inspire everyone equally.

[Frank Drew]

What Joel said.

[Sean Hughto]

While I use a shoulder plane for other things at times, I think it's primary role is in adjustment and recovery. Could a chisel adjust a shoulder - sure, but probably a good bit more slowly in most folks' hands. Could a chisel correct a long rabbet where the wall is out of 90? Theoretically, but way way slower than a shoulder. At the end of the day, there are plenty of work arounds for every tool and task, and many preferences for tools and methods of work. My only point was that a wooden shoulder plane was unlikely for the same reasons a BU smoother was unlikely in the days of wooden planes.

[Roy Lindberry]

Roy, I am curious to know what angle the primary bevel is on the Narex mortice chisels?

If they are 30-35 degrees, then the amount of steel you are pushing into the wood is considerably more than the steel in the much thinner BE chisels. The extra effort might account for the fatigue you experience, not just the larger handles.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I hadn't thought of that...I think they are right at 25 degrees, but I'll have to check. That's something to consider anyway.

[Warren Mickley]

Shaun, I did not mean to make a definitive list of unneeded tools. Or to shift the debate to some other tool. My idea was to point out that unlike this group of tools, the mortise chisel has a very long, universal history and a very secure place in our kits. That however important these listed tools are, the mortise chisel would rank much higher in utility.

One thing to Paul Seller's credit is that despite using a clumsy tool, his technique is not too bad. At least he does not use the 20 degree bevel, which is neither historical, nor universal, nor efficient.

[Jim Matthews]

but the few experiments I've tried with hardwood have not been very successful.

Woods that crosscut easily can be chopped in much the same manner. Oak seems to chop cleanly.
The down side is that harder woods require either more, or firmer blows.
Either way, I can't mortise in Oak like this for long.


What I fell f so refreshing about Paul Sellers is that he teaches in a way that is is encouraging for beginners and that he (apart from several others) is a rally good teacher. There are many really good woodworkers on the web but very few are actually able to explain the basic steps to people who are struggling with the basics. And if Sellers is making money doing this I don't mind.

Other than the Masterclass, Mr. Sellers isn't making much money. I honestly believe he's publishing as a Legacy, hence the name of his schools.
Unlike many of the current teaching crop, there's no product bearing his name.

It's important to note that Mr. Sellers isn't a firebrand, radical or iconoclast - quite the opposite.

[Derek Cohen]

.... One thing to Paul Seller's credit is that despite using a clumsy tool, his technique is not too bad. At least he does not use the 20 degree bevel, which is neither historical, nor universal, nor efficient.

You mean like this one ...

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/prodimg/ms/big/MS-MORTXX_big.gif

This is the Ray Iles you are referring to about which Joel states ... "The primary bevel on the chisel is ground to a very narrow 20 degree angle. This of course is not a strong enough angle to hold up to vicious chopping, but it's historically accurate because the narrow angle lets a blow on the chisel push the chisel very deep. And that's what we want - to go as deep as possible with each blow. But of course we have to strengthen the tip or it will bend. So mortise chisels need a hefty secondary bevel at the tip or around 35 degrees. It turns out with D2 steel (see below) we can use a very tiny secondary bevel. It works great and it reinforces the shallowness of the primary angle so these chisels can get even deeper per blow than the old antiques. All you need is a tiny secondary bevel, even a 1/16" is fine. In general we recommend that when you sharpen just sharpen the secondary bevel and it will grow wider. If it gets annoyingly wide just regrind the primary bevel at 20 degrees. "

You can read the rest here: http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-MORT.XX/English_Mortise_Chisels_by_Ray_Iles

Warren, I am curious as to the basis of your remarks - have you compared differently prepared mortice chisels side-by-side for efficiency in hardwood? What is it about a 20 degree primary bevel that you find so inefficient?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

While I use a shoulder plane for other things at times, I think it's primary role is in adjustment and recovery. Could a chisel adjust a shoulder - sure, but probably a good bit more slowly in most folks' hands. Could a chisel correct a long rabbet where the wall is out of 90? Theoretically, but way way slower than a shoulder. At the end of the day, there are plenty of work arounds for every tool and task, and many preferences for tools and methods of work. My only point was that a wooden shoulder plane was unlikely for the same reasons a BU smoother was unlikely in the days of wooden planes.

I could see the use of a shoulder plane at the shoulder, which is something I would correct with a chisel (though it shouldn't be necessary with good marking), but squaring a long rabbet sounds like a job for a rabbet plane, which ejects chips a lot better and is thus much more convenient to use in a heavier cut. I know everyone comes to different conclusions. I tried for a couple of years to figure out how to use a shoulder plane more efficiently than I could use a chisel for M&T and eventually gave up on the shoulder planes.

I guess at this point, if I had to correct something on a mismarked mitered shoulder that would be difficult to correct with chisels, I would use a rabbet plane (which will cut end grain without issue).

I agree that a shoulder plane (at least widely distributed) was unlikely before casting and machining was common with planes. Given a choice between the two - rabbet and shoulder (which is a choice we really don't need to make, but...) i'd take the rabbet plane any time. Most of the use that I got out of a shoulder plane early on was from trying to use mine as a rabbet plane because I had no accurate rabbet plane.

[David Weaver]

If the cost of entry is too high then people won't do it.

I have to wonder about this when it comes to something like a mortise chisel, which can be had used for about $20 or new from there to about $100. What I mean by that is that woodworking is not a cheap hobby. But it's not expensive necessarily because of the tools. Tools bought right can be sold and not much lost. Getting good wood to build things with, however, is not very cheap in the long run, and consumables like wax and shellac, etc, all add up ...and proper hardware, ...if you choose to use it, is grossly expensive (for good reason, I seriously doubt it was ever cheap).

sellers makes this point, but then urges people to spend a lot of money on instruction (when there is a LOT of free information online), either by purchasing videos or by attending expensive classes. A lot of us cry poor when we don't want to spend money on something (I do it, too), but the things that really make me feel poor in woodworking are sourcing good materials, the tools are just money in suspense, and functional good (and inexpensive) tools are very easy to find these days. The only exception is saw, where you're unlikely to find a $25 saw that was freshly sharpened and straight and right out of use in someone's shop.

I've never caught on to the paid instruction thing, I guess. It's experience that most people lack. Actually doing things and learning where they need to make improvement.

[Derek Cohen]

..... I agree that a shoulder plane (at least widely distributed) was unlikely before casting and machining was common with planes. Given a choice between the two - rabbet and shoulder (which is a choice we really don't need to make, but...) i'd take the rabbet plane any time. Most of the use that I got out of a shoulder plane early on was from trying to use mine as a rabbet plane because I had no accurate rabbet plane.

Hi David

I find shoulder planes really useful tools. Yes, a rebate plane will create a rebate more efficiently - one is my first choice for rebates. However a wide shoulder plane is the tool I turn to to finish it off. The shoulder plane will ensure that the shoulder and the floor of the rebate are square, and it makes it easier to take off a fine shaving to achieve this. When a high level of accuracy is sought for the join in a breadboard end, the shoulder plane helps achieve this. Often I obtain a good fit for shoulders of tenons, but when I do not, and only a fine shaving is needed, and the wood is too hard to slice off with a knife against a square, then the shoulder plane makes this possible.

I find many uses for a shoulder plane. I really would not want to be without one.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

While I use a shoulder plane for other things at times, I think it's primary role is in adjustment and recovery. Could a chisel adjust a shoulder - sure, but probably a good bit more slowly in most folks' hands. Could a chisel correct a long rabbet where the wall is out of 90? Theoretically, but way way slower than a shoulder. At the end of the day, there are plenty of work arounds for every tool and task, and many preferences for tools and methods of work. My only point was that a wooden shoulder plane was unlikely for the same reasons a BU smoother was unlikely in the days of wooden planes.

Hi Sean

I missed your post. We have made similar points.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Griggs]

I'm sure I'm not adding anything that hasn't already been said. Yes you sure can chop a mortise with a BE chisel, and for shallow mortises I often find it preferable...but I agree that there is a reason mortise chisels exist. I simply find them much nicer, and more efficient to use then a BE when chopping a mortise of any reasonable depth. A good pigsticker makes mortising by hand a joy.

RE: shoulder planes. I don't consider them an essential tool, but I'm a fan of them...really a big fan...especially of the smaller (LV med or smaller in size) variety. Ironically, I never use them on tenon shoulders. I do use them if I just need to take a whisker off a rabbet, as I find them nicer then a wooden rabbet plane (and I have a pretty nice wooden rabbet) for fine tweaking. Especially on something like the tongue of a panel where you are working what is essentially a 1/4 x 1/4 or smaller rabbet.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Fine Fine ! I'll buy a mortise chisel... :o but I'm telling the Mrs's it's your fault.:cool:

[Pat Barry]

Would like to find a few in the wild. Til then, i use a few old beater bE chisels.

This is actually the point of Mr Sellers demo. I certainly am with you Steven - finding a mortise chisel is difficult. There are 20 bench chisels out there for every mortise chisel. Mr Sellers is demo'ing that its possible to use the common bench chisel for those of us that don't have the wide variety. In fact, for a pro like him, using the bench chisel is not an inconvenience. The fact that he can do the work as quickly is purely intended to demonstrate that you don't NEED a mortise chisel for the occasional mortise.

Did the man actually state that we should all (at least those that have them) throw away our mortise chisel or stop using them? Gimme a break - Why is it that everyone wants to read more into things than are actually presented?

On the other hand, lets say you have a 1/4" mortise chisel. Now make me a 3/8" or 1/2" mortise with it please. I bet in this particular case, where you are not right up the sweet spot of the 1/4" mortise chisel you would still be using your bench chisel for a large amount of the work.

[Pat Barry]

I've never caught on to the paid instruction thing, I guess. It's experience that most people lack. Actually doing things and learning where they need to make improvement.
There is an old expression that I love "You can't learn from a hack!" In my opinion, that includes self-learning. All the time in the world on your own 'learning' is spent learning from a hack. You are far better learning from a master. This is where Paul Sellers et al come into play. They offer the video for us to learn from. No doubt in my mind however, is that he could actually teach you more face to face. If you have the resources to attend his training and feel it would be useful or informative then why discourage that?

[Matthew N. Masail]

There is an old expression that I love "You can't learn from a hack!" In my opinion, that includes self-learning. All the time in the world on your own 'learning' is spent learning from a hack. You are far better learning from a master. This is where Paul Sellers et al come into play. They offer the video for us to learn from. No doubt in my mind however, is that he could actually teach you more face to face. If you have the resources to attend his training and feel it would be useful or informative then why discourage that?

I know a tai-chi master. I once asked him about the value of the class and he said that you can spend years doing it on your own until you notice something that a teacher would have pointed out to you on the first month.
I guess that's how someone can gain from generations of experience! one certainly dosen't live that long...


However I still believe that experience is not a hack, it is a necessary teacher not matter what. I think an observant and\or creative person can learn a lot very quickly that way - especially considering the amount of intellectual knowledge available these day. making a course a possibly unwise expense (unless money is no issue) others might need to learn from someone else to get a kick start, which is also fine.


Being active in a under-developed country as far as hand tool woodworking goes, I get a lot of people coming over the get help with the basics. the other day a guy came over, he had bought 2 woodriver planes and diamond plates but could not get them to work. after some basics and guidance, he was sharpening just fine.
I also teach a basic hand tool course at a community workshop. funny - in the US I'm a newbe, over here I'm a teacher!:rolleyes: lol anyway I've noticed that some people don't learn well from others, they need to do it their own way, others don't do well on their own, and they need guidance. so spending on learning is a subjective matter, depending on the persons need. I do think that money spent gaining skills whether it is on wood to work or a class to learn, is well spent.

[David Weaver]

There is no lack of free material to pull from to learn from someone other than a hack. Some people learn better face to face, especially people who need to have someone telling them what to do and how to do it. And others learn better by getting a set of principles and figuring it out.

There is one that that has been almost universally true in everything I've ever done, and that is that if you can't take some basic principles and come up with the details on your own, you'll never own the knowledge. If you can, you will.

Ask George who originated the mortising method he used. Ask him who taught him to plane a board, or cut a tenon. I don't know what he'll say, but I doubt he'll "say master so and so showed me how to do it this way and I've never wandered". I'd imagine an awful lot of what makes George George is his ability to see what he wants to build before he builds it, and an ability to figure out another way to do something when something doesn't work. It's partially from talent, but also a lot from drive and experience.

IIRC, what George has said was that he studied every second he could with Will Riemann, and has picked up information from masters of their crafts along the way since then, but we are describing an entirely different plane of accomplishment that got George to that point (needing to learn from someone like Will Riemann) in the first place.

Still, aside maybe from not thinking ahead of time about what someone wants to achieve, I think most people are lacking experience more than anything else. The trouble is they don't have the experience to know that's what they're lacking.

[Matthew N. Masail]

There is no lack of free material to pull from to learn from someone other than a hack. Some people learn better face to face, especially people who need to have someone telling them what to do and how to do it. And others learn better by getting a set of principles and figuring it out.

There is one that that has been almost universally true in everything I've ever done, and that is that if you can't take some basic principles and come up with the details on your own, you'll never own the knowledge. If you can, you will.

Ask George who originated the mortising method he used. Ask him who taught him to plane a board, or cut a tenon. I don't know what he'll say, but I doubt he'll "say master so and so showed me how to do it this way and I've never wandered". I'd imagine an awful lot of what makes George George is his ability to see what he wants to build before he builds it, and an ability to figure out another way to do something when something doesn't work. It's partially from talent, but also a lot from drive and experience.

IIRC, what George has said was that he studied every second he could with Will Riemann, and has picked up information from masters of their crafts along the way since then, but we are describing an entirely different plane of accomplishment that got George to that point (needing to learn from someone like Will Riemann) in the first place.

Still, aside maybe from not thinking ahead of time about what someone wants to achieve, I think most people are lacking experience more than anything else. The trouble is they don't have the experience to know that's what they're lacking.

well said....

[steven c newman]

If Matthew is still looking for that 1/4" beater chisel? I have been using a Stanley "Fat Max" 1/4" chisel for chopping mortises. Does NOT bend when prying out waste, either. I also use a Bevel edge chisel to pare the side walls as needed. Might get a 3/8" wide one, one of these days. I tend to save the chisels from deep work, old school way, and drill out the waste in the deep mortises FIRST. Then a simple, easy pare to clean things up. Just the way things go in a Dungeon Shop....

[Pat Barry]

Ask George who originated the mortising method he used. Ask him who taught him to plane a board, or cut a tenon. I don't know what he'll say, but I doubt he'll "say master so and so showed me how to do it this way and I've never wandered". I'd imagine an awful lot of what makes George George is his ability to see what he wants to build before he builds it, and an ability to figure out another way to do something when something doesn't work. It's partially from talent, but also a lot from drive and experience.

IIRC, what George has said was that he studied every second he could with Will Riemann, and has picked up information from masters of their crafts along the way since then, but we are describing an entirely different plane of accomplishment that got George to that point (needing to learn from someone like Will Riemann) in the first place.
David, not everyone is a savant like George. He may be what they call a 1 percenter over on Fox. 99% of us need instruction. Obviously some (me) more than others (you).

[Max Withers]

Data point only: I tried a half inch through mortise in 4/4 poplar with a Narex bench chisel, and it went a little faster than the Narex mortise chisel. Maybe a little harder to keep the sides straight?

[David Weaver]

Data point only: I tried a half inch through mortise in 4/4 poplar with a Narex bench chisel, and it went a little faster than the Narex mortise chisel. Maybe a little harder to keep the sides straight?

That's pretty much the case, the trouble is when you get into deep mortises in less than perfect wood, faster ends up being not faster (getting everything right and having each stroke countand you shouldn't have to have a white knuckle grip on a chisel to cut a mortise). Fastest becomes whatever keeps you in rhythm in work.

[Jim Koepke]

Data point only: I tried a half inch through mortise in 4/4 poplar with a Narex bench chisel, and it went a little faster than the Narex mortise chisel. Maybe a little harder to keep the sides straight?

I think with my 1/2" mortise chisel and my big bopper mallet it would only take a whack or two from each side to get through.

jtk

[Adam Cruea]

This is actually the point of Mr Sellers demo. I certainly am with you Steven - finding a mortise chisel is difficult. There are 20 bench chisels out there for every mortise chisel. Mr Sellers is demo'ing that its possible to use the common bench chisel for those of us that don't have the wide variety. In fact, for a pro like him, using the bench chisel is not an inconvenience. The fact that he can do the work as quickly is purely intended to demonstrate that you don't NEED a mortise chisel for the occasional mortise.

Did the man actually state that we should all (at least those that have them) throw away our mortise chisel or stop using them? Gimme a break - Why is it that everyone wants to read more into things than are actually presented?

On the other hand, lets say you have a 1/4" mortise chisel. Now make me a 3/8" or 1/2" mortise with it please. I bet in this particular case, where you are not right up the sweet spot of the 1/4" mortise chisel you would still be using your bench chisel for a large amount of the work.

Not really. I made 16 mortises in my hickory bench that were 1 1/4" with a 1/2" mortise chisel and only reached for a bench chisel when I needed to gradually take off some material from the tenon to get it to fit.

I actually *tried* to use a bench chisel (for some mortises 2 inches deep to through-mortises in laminations of 3 3/4") and the bench chisel twists like crazy as well as flexing when trying to chop the mortise quickly. I could only drive the bench chisel down about 1/4" before leveraging out waste; with the pig sticker, I could drive down a good 1/2" and still easily leverage out waste and move quickly onto my next chopping.

Just $.02. It all depends on to whom you're dealing with. Some people can drive a semi like it's a Prius, others drive a Prius like it's a triple-trailered semi (that is to say, very awkwardly).

[Chris Fournier]

And once again the Neanders have managed to take a simple process and mask it in highly technical and mysterious/controversial tooling and processes. Why?

Take the time to visit some heritage woodworking sites, imagine wood fired or no fire heating in natural lit conditions, sweating or freezing depending on the season, tools knocked out by a blacksmith. Did these master craftsman have this discussion? I doubt it. They had to produce and get paid, they knocked out craft that we revere to this day, no time to navel gaze. They were taught, imitated, and mastered simple skills and through practice became masters in their own right. Hell they didn't use a Tormek or a diamond plate and I doubt that they engaged in a "one stone challenge". They were woodworkers and learned their craft at the bench when they had the chance to step up to the bench.

Why not do the same? Step up to your bench, buy some pretty inexpensive tools (say $60 bucks for a BE and mortise chisel) and try it out for yourself. Then and only then will you be on your way to understanding and developing your own skill set. Once you can do it, you'll know well enough how to do it better.

The bench don't lie. The internet ain't no bench.

[Noah Wagener]

Nobody commented on his technique of holding the chisel so that the bevel is plumb rather than the back. Seems like wasted energy but it makes it easier to "leever". This is the video of chopping behind glass, right?

I do not see how he could rub so many people the wrong way. He seems almost meek in expressing his technique and he is certainly not dogmatic. In fact, the place that sells those Ray Iiles chisels that so many have brought up here to refute him has a blurb from him saying they are the best chisels he has ever used.

Can those things be sharpened with Arkansas stones?

If a pigsticker had its tang ground to fit a small handle can it be fixed?

[Adam Cruea]

Nobody commented on his technique of holding the chisel so that the bevel is plumb rather than the back. Seems like wasted energy but it makes it easier to "leever". This is the video of chopping behind glass, right?

I do not see how he could rub so many people the wrong way. He seems almost meek in expressing his technique and he is certainly not dogmatic. In fact, the place that sells those Ray Iiles chisels that so many have brought up here to refute him has a blurb from him saying they are the best chisels he has ever used.

Can those things be sharpened with Arkansas stones?

If a pigsticker had its tang ground to fit a small handle can it be fixed?

They're D2. . .so I doubt they could easily be sharpened on an Ark stone.

[Simon MacGowen]

Just sounds like another exchange on tails first or pins first. Each camp insists that their is better. Paul is one successful teacher that I think no others could compare to when it comes to generating practices, discussions, new thinking and even new techniques. My neighbor had never tried mortising but Paul's Youtube video was what it caused him to start cutting mortises and tenon joints. I am lending him my mortising chisels and he'll find out what would be the favorite mortising tools for him. I am sure BE chisels as demonstrated by Paul will work; I am happy with my mortising chisels and don\t plan to change my method. Those who have attended his classes can testify that Paul is no snake-oil salesman and what you see is what you get.

I am not a subscriber of his classes but so far, everything (the poor man's router included; yes I do have the Veritas router plane) I tried out after watching his free videos worked. It has been a fun journey (isn't that what woodworking is all about?) and I hope he will continue to show or create new ways of doing things that will spice up not only forum discussions but also those of us who like to try out new things. Whenever time allows, I try to show my students Paul's ways after the traditional or mainstream methods are covered.

Simon