setting Japanese plane

[Noah Wagener]

When should a blade start to get snug in relation to how far it is from the sole. I have a blade that is real tight and it would have to travel another 1/2 inch or so to project and i am afraid to tap it home. It was shimmed with paper as if it was to loose.

[David Wong]

I usually stop when the blade seats by firm hand pressure only, about 5mm from the mouth opening. When you seat the blade with a hammer, you should hear the blade solidly seat when the sound changes to a dull thud. You are shooting for 1 to 2mm from the opening. Since humidity is still low this time of year, it is better to have the blade seat more tightly. If the fit is so tight that you cannot adjust the blade to the opening, you will have to scrape further.

Be sure you condition the blade and the dai sole before your final adjustments to seating the blade.

Here is the first in a series of videos for more info...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQytHrqMsug&sns=em

[Matt Lau]

I got the blade wedged in too far. It's stuck.

Any tips on getting it out?

[David Wong]

I got the blade wedged in too far. It's stuck.

Any tips on getting it out?
Hammer along the top edge of the dai, behind the blade, at the same angle as the blade is set in the dai. Strike firmly, but do not go overboard. Hold the dai with one hand, so you are also lightly pressing the blade with your fingers. This prevents the blade from popping out and hitting the floor (something I just did today). Many smaller blows to the dai are preferred than a few very heavy blows. Don't always strike the same place. I use a wood mallet to back a blade out. Some people just use a metal hammer. If I have a blade that is really stuck, I may wait a few days to see if the dai loosens up due to the weather.

[Jim Matthews]

If that doesn't work, crank on a handscrew to the blade and tap the handscrew to ease it back out.

Not that I've ever got a blade locked, mind you...

*****

I wonder if putting the whole thing, in a ziploc bag,
in the freezer would get things to shrink, some?

[Georg Zudoff]

Matt, I've hade the same problem one or two years ago. Main reason - I've bought kanna from Germany but I live in Ukraine. Different humidity. Kanna blade was hard stuck... I've waited almost 6 months and only after got out kanna blade.

[Winton Applegate]

Noah,

What's the latest ?
Did you get the blade out ?

Were you able to get the blade in far enough to cut wood ?

If not I can help with both of those.
I recently bought a Japanese plane and the blade was impossibly tight in the plane. There was absolutely no way to hammer it far enough to get it to cut.

I was perfectly happy with this fit though. Better than too loose.
I found an easy way to get the most stuck blade out and I tuned the body of the plane with a chisel or two and a file to achieve perfection.

She cuts great now and the blade is not too tight though plenty snug.

Anyway . . . can I help ?

[Noah Wagener]

I can get it out no problem. It just stops about 3/4 (I guess i should say 18mm) from where it needs to be yet it appears to have been shimmed in the customary manner when it gets too loose from working the sole.

[Winton Applegate]

On the non-concave side of the blade I rubbed the area of the blade that contacts the wood body with crayon. Then I put the blade in the plane and tapped it in pretty tight. I removed the blade and using chisels I lightly pared the crayon areas off.

My plane is brand new and most of the contact area was in the middle of the blade. I think it is desirable to keep it that way.

My blade was stuck tight about 5 mm from the sole so I didn’t really have much material to remove but I took it real easy and made four or five crayon and then chisel cycles.

I am sorry to say it sounds like you may have to start with a chain saw to get close to where you can start paring.

Sounds like the shim could be kind of a trouble maker. Do you have anyone locally that can inspect it and help ?

Maybe some photos here on SawMill could let use see how it all is.

[Noah Wagener]

thanks for the tip. i have some engineer's blue but that would stain. Could i pare just the abutments?

[Winton Applegate]

i have some engineer's blue but that would stain
So what you are telling us is I should send out the Guinness Book of World Records because you could win the title for being the only house in the known universe that does not have a crayon in it ?

Is that what you are telling me sir ?
If that is true I recommend you run, don't walk, to the nearest dollar store and buy a box of crayons.

DO IT ! :eek:
DO IT NOW !
BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE !

You could at any minute loose the ability to have fun screwing around with crayons.
Once that skill is lost . . . well . . . lets just hope it doesn't come to that.
:p


Could i pare just the abutments?

I think that might depend on where the shim is and I have not had to deal with sole wear and shimming and am too lazy right now to reason it out . . .
but
I would think that the front of the abutments (on the concave side of the blade) are sacred and should not be messed with.
and
doesn't the shim go all the way across the other side of the blade and so would have to be pared away as a whole ?

As far as stuff to put on the blade to transfer marks to the wood to pare
you could use some soot from a fire place or even hold a spoon above a burning paper to collect some soot. In a pinch you should rub a pencil on the blade but that takes for ever. Any charcoal drawing sticks in your general vicinity ?

Oh yah . . . I forgot . . . you maintain an artist free perimeter.
:)
:D
:)

[David Wong]

You should never pare the abutments. I am not really the best at explaining this, but are two things you are trying to accomplish when bedding a blade: To fit the blade to allow the edge to project below the sole; and to create a large contact area between the blade and the dai. The larger the contact area, the better supported the blade will be, which will allow the blade to remain firmly seated while planing. It will not loose its adjustment so easily while planing. Having a well fit blade and dai will also allow the blade to more easily be adjusted with your hammer taps. The blade will project straighter with less side adjustments.

I just rub a pencil on the blade to mark the areas on the dai to pare. Sometimes I use camilia oil, but graphite offers more contrast. Don't forget to check the sides for clearance for the blade. You want up to 1mm on each side to allow for lateral adjustments of the blade. More at the top than the bottom towards the sole. You can check if your blade is too tight on the sides by using a straightedge on the sides of the dai when you hammer in the blade. Check for bulging. The same distortion will happen on the bottom of the dai as will. Some bulging on the bottom is ok when setting up the dai, and can be corrected when conditioning the sole.

[Winton Applegate]

Don't forget to check the sides for clearance for the blade. You want up to 1mm on each side to allow for lateral adjustments of the blade.

Yes
I found I had to pare the sides of the slots to be able to tap the blade enough to make the blade edge align with the sole. I used crayon here as well.
I may find I need to open it up more with sharpenings.

I bet at this point I have about a half mm or less total room to move the blade.

[Winton Applegate]

PS:
a side note. My latest plane is a scraper plane with a vertical 90° blade.
After many passes with the plane on purple heart with the grain for ease of fooling around,
I was astounded to find the blade as sharp as when I started.
and
I did not sharpen the blade before I started. It was pretty sharp to start and I wanted to see how it did before I gave it my treatment.
It did FINE !
Producing not dust or fuzzy curls like a card scraper but long straight ribbons that were shiny on one side.
I opened the throat a bit (that was what the file was for).
Before that it was jamming badly in the sole opening. A little file file and viola.
RIBBONS.

[Wilbur Pan]

I can get it out no problem. It just stops about 3/4 (I guess i should say 18mm) from where it needs to be yet it appears to have been shimmed in the customary manner when it gets too loose from working the sole.

18mm from the bottom is too far. Try to get the fit so that you can get it to within 5mm with hand pressure.

Honestly, fitting a Japanese plane blade really isn’t that hard. If you can fit a mortise and tenon joint, you can do this as well. I have a write up on how to do this here: http://giantcypress.net/tagged/Japanese%20plane%20setup/chrono

The worst case scenario is that you are too aggressive about removing wood from the bed, and the blade drops down farther than you want. That’s no problem. Just shim the bed, and try again: http://giantcypress.net/post/50004277654/make-your-bed

[Noah Wagener]

Yeah. I think it is the sides that are holding it up. It is bulging and there are some little cracks on both corners of the bed side of the mouth. Thanks. i would not have thought it would have been too tight in that aspect.

I'll take yous guyses words about not paring the abutments though i do not understand why. I think the chipbreaker is going to be loose when i ever get to this and i would think that paring the bed would exacerbate this and paring the contact portion of the abutments would help.I guess you just bend those dogears on the breaker to remedy this? Plus the abutments are only contacting the blade near the top. To fix this via paring the bed i'd have to lower the bed angle and it is already at 36 degrees. Is this common with the back of the blade always being worked near the edge? Should the whole back be honed?

This blade is concave on the bevel side, the larger portion that contacts the bed. Is this normal? The bed is rounded convexly to fit.

The slope opposite the bed (the wear?) changes directions like a western plane so that it is almost parallel to the bed. I thought this slope was straight and the they laminated a piece of wood on to it to tighten mouths with endgrain being the part that receives wear.

But i think it will be awhile before i get to this because trying to get out the little pits in the blade is proving to be impossible. Even the bevel is uber hard to make any progress on.

David, i saw your thread on tapping irons. Can chisels be tapped as well? Small chisels. I was thinking of skewing an old chisel for tenon shoulders but i would be in the hollow then and i am not equipped to lap that out. What is the Japanese method for tenon shoulders?I never see skewed chisels. Maybe those saws cut so smoothly or straight chisels are so sharp as to not require skew?

Wilbur, I saw in you blog you listen to Husker Du while working. That makes no sense at all.

[David Wong]

I'll take yous guyses words about not paring the abutments though i do not understand why. I think the chipbreaker is going to be loose when i ever get to this and i would think that paring the bed would exacerbate this and paring the contact portion of the abutments would help.I guess you just bend those dogears on the breaker to remedy this?
Yes, bending the dog ears is one way to handle this.


Plus the abutments are only contacting the blade near the top. To fix this via paring the bed i'd have to lower the bed angle and it is already at 36 degrees. Is this common with the back of the blade always being worked near the edge? Should the whole back be honed?
You only need to hone the front edge of the back. In fact, it is considered aesthetically unpleasing if you flatten the entire back and cause the flats on the side to widen. I typically hone so that the flat behind the edge is 2-3mm wide. On tough blades, I am happy to get 1mm. Be sure to use a crayon or pencil on the blade so you can see where it is contacting the bed of the dai. You really want to lightly scrape these areas then test the fit again. I am very cautious, and it takes me many fittings (more than 10?) to get an acceptable fit.


This blade is concave on the bevel side, the larger portion that contacts the bed. Is this normal? The bed is rounded convexly to fit.
Yes, this is normal. The goal in fitting a blade to a dai is to have the blade drop in to the convex area.


The slope opposite the bed (the wear?) changes directions like a western plane so that it is almost parallel to the bed. I thought this slope was straight and the they laminated a piece of wood on to it to tighten mouths with endgrain being the part that receives wear.
On dai's I have, this area is typically ~80degrees. Having a piece of wood to tighten the mouth is optional and may be added by the dai maker, or by the user after the fact.


David, i saw your thread on tapping irons. Can chisels be tapped as well? Small chisels. I was thinking of skewing an old chisel for tenon shoulders but i would be in the hollow then and i am not equipped to lap that out. What is the Japanese method for tenon shoulders?I never see skewed chisels. Maybe those saws cut so smoothly or straight chisels are so sharp as to not require skew?
Actually, that thread was on how NOT to tap out a plane iron. I do not use a skew chisel for tenon shoulders. I find my bench chisels adequate, but I guess it depends on the wood. I would not attempt to tap out a small chisel. Just lap the back until a large enough flat area is created. On small chisels, it really does not take that much effort. I use a #220 grit stone or a sigma #400 for heavy removal on the back of blades.

[Kees Heiden]

I have no idea about Japanese planes, but I noticed that Chris Hall started an extensive blog series about this subject:
http://thecarpentryway.blogspot.nl/2014/04/kanna-help-you-perhaps.html

[Wilbur Pan]

I'll take yous guyses words about not paring the abutments though i do not understand why. I think the chipbreaker is going to be loose when i ever get to this and i would think that paring the bed would exacerbate this and paring the contact portion of the abutments would help.I guess you just bend those dogears on the breaker to remedy this? Plus the abutments are only contacting the blade near the top. To fix this via paring the bed i'd have to lower the bed angle and it is already at 36 degrees.

The bed angle will change, but the effective cutting angle won’t. The effective cutting angle is determined by the top edge of the grooves in the side of the throat that the blade fits into. That’s why you never want to touch that part of the plane when fitting a blade. You’re lowering the bed angle for the purpose of getting the blade to fit closer to the mouth, which is a good thing.


David, i saw your thread on tapping irons. Can chisels be tapped as well? Small chisels. I was thinking of skewing an old chisel for tenon shoulders but i would be in the hollow then and i am not equipped to lap that out. What is the Japanese method for tenon shoulders?I never see skewed chisels. Maybe those saws cut so smoothly or straight chisels are so sharp as to not require skew?

You don’t need to tap out a chisel, even wide ones, because the hollow in a chisel is shaped differently than the hollow of a plane blade. More info here: http://giantcypress.net/post/931326880/hatful-of-hollow


Wilbur, I saw in you blog you listen to Husker Du while working. That makes no sense at all.

I Apologize. You never know What's Going On (Inside My Head).