Felder F700Z Shaper Opportunit.....Input Requested

[Clay Fails]

I have an opportunity to purchase a 2003 Felder F700Z shaper which the seller says has NEVER been used. The package would include:
-the shaper which is 7.5 HP/3 phase;
-fence, hold downs and guards;
-a phase converter for 3ph to single ph;
-spindles 30mm and 1 1/4, along with router bit collet adapters;
-10 brand new Felder cutter heads (I don't have a complete list yet);
-some kind of sanding disk (not sure what this is);
-Vario 4 speed feeder;
-miscellaneous accessories.

Seller wants $12,000. I would need to rent a uhaul and drive 6 hours to pick it up, which is not a big deal. Seller will be sending me photos and a complete list of the package.

it's more machine than I had in mind, but I'm wondering if it's a good opportunity. What does the braintrust think about the Felder machine itself, and then the asking price for the package?

I'm a hobbyist right now, in the process of expanding my shop capability. I have never had a shaper before, am using router table for these types of operations.

thanks for the input guys!

[Jeff Duncan]

I can't speak to the value of the package as you would have to cost all the components of it, but I have to admit I'm envious one could drop $12k on a machine to use for hobby use:eek:

If you want to save a few bucks I could sell you an older Martin for about 1/3 of that price, you'd just have to drive a little farther;)

good luck,
JeffD

[David Kumm]

Felder F700 is about as versitile a shaper as you can find. resale holds well. The 30 mm spindle is worth about 400, RPC 1000, cutters depending on whether you use them, and router spindle about 500-700. Feeder is worth 1200. Nice used shapers go for 4000-6000. Hard to sell any shaper when the price gets above 5K so I think the price is high. I have an F7 with about the same stuff and a little older. I think full value is 5-6K. I bought a 2000 never used T130 slider for 4K plus another spindle so call it 5500 with a like new Univer feeder. Felder has changed to a trunnion design on their shapers made after 2007 and have recently changed them again. 7-8.5k plus whatever you think the cutters add to your life. Just a range based on my watch of the market. Doesn't make it right. Dave

[Loren Woirhaye]

Concur with David Kumm above. You'll may have a hard time getting your money back out of it if you buy, though Felder has a sort of golden halo around it right now on the resale market. Since new higher-end industrial machinery is often bought on credit, you may have to extend credit to get close to what you paid for it. You may wish to assess the market value of the cutters as some cutters are worth a lot more than others.

Also, there are more fun machines to collect and use for making one-off furniture than shapers. It depends on the kind of work you want to do. I build casework and furniture and I haven't used my shaper in awhile so I'm selling it to make room for a dovetailer. If you make a lot of doors you'll want shapers, but then you'll also want a wide belt and big clamping rigs. When I bought my Felder short stroke slider in very gently used condition for less than 4k the guy had been trying to sell if for a couple of years, in a major metropolitan area, and was thrilled to see it go. It took at least 6 months to find a buyer for a Maggi 35 spindle construction boring machine (for around $2500) that was just too big for my shop, and the buyers were pros.

[nicholas mitchell]

$7k tops with everything included would be a good deal. If you're going to spend $12k, then you should be looking at a new one.

[Peter Quinn]

Price seems high, I don't care if its still in the crate, it comes with no warranty and has been sitting for 11 years? Machines are depreciating assets, seems the seller is shooting a bit close to full replacement value. Felder makes a good shaper, I like the shaper as a wood shop element, I'd be negotiating for a better price or moving on. I'm thinking Davids numbers are spot on, so $9K tops for the package? Maybe the cutters throw it a bit up or down? I'd add the total replacement cost of the package new, pay no more than 60% for used as is condition, maybe a small premium if it truly is never used and in good working order.

[Clay Fails]

Thanks to all for the input. my gut instinct was that the price is high............I first need to decide how much I think I need a shaper, then go from there. I've always thought it would be a good addition to the shop,, but in the end I'm not sure how much I would really use it for what I do. As someone mentioned, for that $ amount I could get a lot of other items that might bring more day-to-day value to my work.

On that note, I'd be interested in feedback from guys on how much they actually use their shaper. I know it depends on what you're making, etc. I'm mostly a furniture guy; tables, chests, chairs, etc. No mass production doors, frame and panel, etc. So far my router table has been adequate (I know the shaper is a different animal and they aren't really comparable).

thanks!

thanks!

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Clay, I use my shaper a lot, always have.

- patern copying

- edging details (cutting profiles)

- dimensioning and profiling in one pass with an outboard fence and a feeder

- sanding (mine takes sanding drums)

- rebating

They are extremely versatile machines..................Regards, Rod.

[Loren Woirhaye]

I do patterns with a pin router. It can do small radius cuts and interior cuts too. Tooling cost is minimal.

I won't argue that shapers aren't useful machines. If I were doing Queen Anne reproductions I'd want one just to do gooseneck mouldings. I'll get another one in the future I'm sure.

[Jeff Duncan]

How much do I use my shaper…..a LOT. I could not live without a shaper anymore than I could live without a table saw. It's a workhorse in my shop. So much so that I have several of them and use them all! Having said that I spent much less than $12k for all 4 of my shapers plus the tooling and 4 power feeders! That's not to imply a good shaper isn't worth spending money on, it is in the right situation. Just that my needs don't require that kind of investment and as such I would not spend it…..and it sound like your needs may not require it either?

My opinion for what it's worth…..spend some time window shopping basic industrial shapers. When you find one locally for a good price, pick it up and start using it. Only by spending time on a shaper will you learn what "YOU" can do with one and how it can help you. They really are incredibly versatile machines that can open up doors for a small shop. For under $4k you should be able to pick up a shaper in good plug and play condition with a feeder, and then get yourself a Euro block cutter head. That one head by itself gives you a lot of flexibility for running small runs of different profiles and will make you almost forget you own a router table.

good luck,
JeffD

[Joe Jensen]

Sign up on the Felder site and price out a new one. The electrical controls on the newer machines use standard modular components so if in the future something fails you can get parts anywhere. I believe on the that generation they used a Felder specific control board. I know owners of saws and saw/shapers on the Felder Owners Group have had to completely redo the electronics when the board failed. Cost over $2K.

The shaper cutters could be a good deal if you need those profiles. Felder cutters are not made by Felder and all I have seen are very high quality insert tooling cutters. Prices for the cutters are on the Felder site too. I suspect the owners is looking for 80-85% of what he paid. That's way too much.

I would rather buy a used 2010 or newer for the same money, but I think that as others have said here $5K or less for the shaper not counting the extras.

Also, when I was shopping for my Felder saw/shaper Carl was very helpful and he even pointed me to a few used machines that were a great deal. I'd contact Carl at Felder too.

[Paul Fox]

I can't speak to the value of the package as you would have to cost all the components of it, but I have to admit I'm envious one could drop $12k on a machine to use for hobby use:eek:

If you want to save a few bucks I could sell you an older Martin for about 1/3 of that price, you'd just have to drive a little farther;)

good luck,
JeffD

I am interested in finding an upper end shaper.

[David Kumm]

Used upper end shapers go for 4-7K. If you are looking for almost new, there is an F900 with accessories for sale on the Felder group. In CA if I'm remembering right. Dave

[Jim Andrew]

If you plan to stay a hobbyist, maybe you should look at Grizzly's 3hp shaper. I have one, with the 1hp power feeder, and find it makes a big improvement building panel doors. I am only a hobbyist, but I have turned out a few kitchens using a router table, and the Grizzly works fine for me. Also made some tongue and groove flooring for a buddy, he was building a cabin and wanted some rustic flooring, so we ran the stuff. I have a couple euro machines, a sliding table saw and a mm16 bandsaw, I know the stuff is very nice, but I don't have to have all the best equipment money can buy, the shaper runs smooth, does the job, and improves woodworking for me over a router table. A tilting arbor shaper would be nice, if you need an upgrade. I have read a lot of complaints about Grizzly's fence, but works fine for me.