Veritas Saw File Holder - Worthwhile for first time filer?

[Scott M Perry]

Hi, all -

I'm gearing up to learn to file my own saws. I'm starting with a 12 PPI rip backsaw. Have the files needed to joint and sharpen. Am considering the Veritas saw file holder (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,43072,43086&p=70465) to help make this idiot-proof (a serious consideration...). I know that the holder isn't an absolute necessity; I'm wondering, though, if its utility is worth the price? I'm starting rip, but would like to be able to sharpen crosscut at some point, too.

Whatcha all think? Experiences?

Thanks,
Scott

[Jim Koepke]

Even with having made my own file holders for setting the rake angle and a fleam gauge for crosscut saws I have considered purchasing one of the Veritas saw file holders.

It looks like a good investment to me for one starting out sharpening saws.

jtk

[Sam Stephens]

imo, no. For fleam angles, I just pencil a line on the saw vice (mine is wood), so that's easy. As for the rake angle -i take a small block of wood. mark the angle and orientation for the saw and tap the triangular head of the file into place at the correct angle into the block. With a nice snug fit, it's easy to get a consistent rake angle. (in the photo below, the hole was drilled out instead, but you get the idea). The only draw back is that I need a different block for each angle but seeing as I only need a few angles (60 degrees X-cut and 0 and maybe 4 degrees for rip), it's not a big deal. To be honest maintaining the file for 60 and 0 degree rakes is pretty easy -flat side is either parallel (60) or perpendicular (0) to the vice.
http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/jig_right.JPG

this site has a better description of the wood block for rake angle:
http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html

[Stew Hagerty]

Personally, as a self taught guy who started filing about 2 years ago, I love it. I did use the small wooden blocks before I got one and they worked fine too. But with this tool, I can make small variations to saws that I use for different things or even "on the fly" for a single saw for a purpose such as ease of starting. It saves me making and storing 20 different "small wooden blocks".

[Richard Line]

As a learner, with now some experience sharpening saws, I am quite happy with the Veritas file holder. I had used the wood guides, and they work. I've found the Veritas holder to be easy to set, and I don't need a bunch of the wooden guides (each file size and rake angle pretty much needs its own guide).

[lowell holmes]

I have it and wouldn't want to do without it, even though I could.

Get the saw file pouch while your at it.

[Jim McGee]

Blackburn tools also has a very nice saw file holder similar to the Veritas saw file holder.

[David Weaver]

I don't use any of the tools like that. I can generally tell about where I am eyeballing the file, and tell whether I'm going to have a hard starting saw or one with too little rake, and perfect fleam isn't that important for practical purposes - if it's in the ballpark tooth to tooth you'll be fine, and sharpening faster and more often is worth more than getting it perfect and dreading the next filing.

That said, you can buy those devices and the'll help keep you out of the weeds and as is always the case with LV and LN type tools, if you change your mind and sell it, you won't get hurt too much on dollars.

I did make a couple of the blocks like sam's shown above, but at this point, I'd only use something like that if I were going to sell a saw to someone - they were helpful at first, though. After that, experience is the big differentiator with how fast you'll file and how good the result will be (especially in a practical sense when you consider the time it takes to get them), and not devices.

[Derek Cohen]

I actually have two of these, the first being a preproduction version. I think the file holder is very useful, particularly if you want to have one tool - and stylish at that! - to replace a bunch of wooden blocks. Jamming the end of a file into a wooden block works, and if you do not want to spend any money, then that is a way to go. It's been done so successfully for centuries. If you want a reliable way to set the angles of rake and fleam, then something like the Veritas is needed.

I have not done enough saw filing to call myself more than an entry level filer. Starting a few years back I began to touch up small backsaws saws - of which I have done several - but have only done a couple of refurbishments from scratch. As a result I am in a good position to evaluate the worth of a file holder - enough experience to know what to do, and not enough saws under my belt to fall into it automatically.

I only know of the availability of file holders made by Veritas and Blackburn tools. The main difference is that the Blackburn builds in a spirit level. Is the spirit level needed? Does it add something useful to the tool for someone starting out? To answer this I added a small bubble level to one of the file holders I have. What I noted was that it was impossible to keep an eye on the bubble as I filed. It was also not necessary because muscle memory took over quickly once a rhythm of filing was established. I did find the bubble very useful, however, as every now-and-then I could check that the angle of the rake was correct, which was more important if filing zero rake for a dovetail saw (as inadvertantly filing negative rake would be a disadvantage - it is easy to do when filing by eye).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I have it. I like it, it's nice, but you can get by without it, particularly if you're filing a lot of the same angles. I have generally been filing all my rip saws at 0 degrees, so that's a real easy one to eyeball. Once a saw is were you want it, I find it pretty easy to re-sharpen w/o changing, especially if it's something you've been eyeballing a lot.

Where the guide has really shone for me has been when I want to adjust rake or fleam slightly from where it is - this tends to be harder for me to eyeball, and a guide helps here. It's also nice with smaller files - even in harder woods, eventually, wooden guides tend to wallow out on me with smaller files and need replacement.

The one advantage I've had with it over wooden blocks is when sharpening crosscut saws - the blocks I was using meant I was losing the last few inches of file stroke when doing a crosscut saw, as the block jammed into the saw or vise before I used most of the file when sharpening at an angle to the plate. The way the guide tilts to always stay parallel to plate prevents this. I'm sure I could have put more effort in the guide blocks to work around this.

Long story short, I have it, I really like it - I might not buy another one if I lost it, and I don't need it. Part of the calculus for me was that I bought it during the intro offer and saved a bit of money. It was just a little bit cheaper, so it was still within "throwing around money" for me - at the 42 bucks it is now, that calculation is a little trickier for me.

I'd say sharpen at least a couple saws without it, using wooden guide blocks, see how you feel, and then make the call. You certainly don't need it, so it's more of a personal choice. If you were closer to me, i'd just loan you mine to play around with.

[Mike Allen1010]

Scott,

I've filed lots of saws, and although fleam angle is easier to keep track of with lines on the Saw vise, I find some guide for rake angle helpful especially if teeth are in rough ' irregular shape. maybe not nessary if just touching up a newer/well maintained saw.

Keeping track of all the guide blocks w/ different rake angles and files sizes gets to be a headache. If I were starting out I would get the veritas or similar guide if the cost is not personally prohibitive.

Starting w/ 12 PPI is diving into the deep end; larger teeth are much easier.

Finally starting with the end in mind is helpful; sure w/ a dull saw any "sharpening" is an improvement, but IMHO getting the getting the geometry, profile, tooth line height and set exactly right makes a tangible difference beyond a less rigerous "sharpening" saw - equvilent to difference between plane blade w/ nicely honed bevel angles w/ fine grit stones vs. Free handing on 800 grit- they both work but it's a matter of personal taste which you prefer.

Perhaps I'm being pedantic and I think David won't agree, but for me I appreciate the benefits of well tuned, vs. Merely "sharpened" saws, but then I don't have a table saw anymore and do everything w/ handsaws.

YMMV.

Cheers, Mike

[Judson Green]

Yup, I pretty much just eyeball it too and I've only started sharping/setting handsaws less than a year ago. For the most part all my saws cut just fine though I have one, a crosscut, that saws sightly to the left. I think the the hardest part is just getting up the gumption to try and embrace the idea that you might fail. But truthfully the only way you fail it to put it off further and not do. Saws don't create final surfaces anyway. I don't get hung up on this degree rake or that degree fleam, rather more or less.

I'm certainly no expert... denial and error.

[Ron Bontz]

It is very important to maintain a consistent rake. It is also an advantage to have more than one visual reference when filing. The best thing about it is, it is made out of composite material, won't rust, I think, and can just be put back into the tool box when finished. No big deal. Bottom line is the file holder ( rake and fleam guide) is a great bang for the buck.

[David Weaver]

Yup, I pretty much just eyeball it too and I've only started sharping/setting handsaws less than a year ago. For the most part all my saws cut just fine though I have one, a crosscut, that saws sightly to the left. I think the the hardest part is just getting up the gumption to try and embrace the idea that you might fail. But truthfully the only way you fail it to put it off further and not do. Saws don't create final surfaces anyway. I don't get hung up on this degree rake or that degree fleam, rather more or less.

I'm certainly no expert... denial and error.

Check the height of the teeth and make sure they're not taller on the left side than the right.

If they're not, you can probably stone out the difference.

[Judson Green]

Will do, David, thanks for the tip.

If they are, ya think I could do the sellers back filing trick on the offending teeth? Or would that just muck it up for future filings?

[David Weaver]

If they are uniformly high on one side, I would give them a very light joint - very light, and work just the front and back of the teeth rather than trying a shortcut. It'll take a little time, but the saw will work well afterward.

IME, the height of those teeth, or at least the V going down the middle of the teeth, doesn't have to be perfect, but it needs to be somewhat close. Getting good uniform teeth on a crosscut saw in terms of tooth size and height is probably the biggest challenge for a new filer. It's just a matter of filing enough saws that you compensate for whatever is causing it and do so by finesse and muscle memory (which you will remember) and not by academic recipe (which you will lose or forget).

[Tom M King]

If it was half the price, I'd have one.

[David Weaver]

If it was half the price, I'd have one.

That line has been said many many times throughout history, I'd bet.

[David Wadstrup]

Hi Scott,

If you can swing the price, I'd suggest the version made by Isaac at Blackburn (http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/rakemaker-ii/index.html). I have one and love it. I find it incredibly helpful and use it every time I file a saw -- it makes saw sharpening foolproof and is a pleasure to use. I prefer it to Veritas' version as I like supporting craftsmen and small businesses when I can, and because I find it to be a much nicer tool overall. Especially the wood grip -- it's so much nicer to hold than Veritas' aluminum one. Nicer looking, too.

[Eric Brown]

Blackburn Tools mentions a Henry Briggs as what their RakeMaker file holder was modeled after. The original Briggs patent was #1317126 dated Sept 23, 1919.
The Veritas one works on similar concepts. You might want to read the Briggs patent for better understanding.

[Alex Zimmer]

One of the nice things about high-end tools is that, unlike cars, they retain most of their selling value for a while. I've been frugal by selling my more "beginner" tools on eBay, where the Veritas name is always in demand. So if you want to use it like training wheels, so long as you keep it in good condition you might not have to pay much for it in the long run.

[Scott M Perry]

Thanks for all the thoughts, everyone. I have some money to burn at LV (a rarity), so I'm adding the file holder to the cart. It may prove unnecessary with practice and experience, but I'll take every advantage I can get at this point.

Scott