Low Angle Block Plane - chatter?

[Jules Dominguez]

I'm a newbie at serious planing, so here I am with another question. Received a Veritas Low Angle Block Plane with a 1/8" thick A-2 alloy blade for Father's Day. It has a 25 degree main bevel. I added a 30 degree microbevel and started trying it out. It does a fine job on side grain, but I'm getting what I've always supposed was "chatter" on the end grain of a piece of cherry. The plane was cutting the end grain cleanly and smoothly, nice shavings (to my perception, at least). Are these fine lines perpendicular to the direction of planing "chatter" ? I was really surprised to see it, after all of the raves I've read about the thick blades and low angle planes. Any suggestions? I'm looking for help again.
The attached pictures show the end grain and shavings from a roughly 3/4" cherry board which prompted this post.

[Richard Wolf]

Two thinks I noticed, 1) what is the line that runs with the direction you are planing, is there a slight nick in the blade? That may produce chatter. 2) The chip laying in the picture looks a little heavy for an end grain cut. Back the blade out a bit.
Also skewing the plane at an angle will help reduce chatter and give a cleaner cut.

Richard

[Tom LaRussa]

I'm a newbie at serious planing, so here I am with another question. Received a Veritas Low Angle Block Plane with a 1/8" thick A-2 alloy blade for Father's Day. It has a 25 degree main bevel. I added a 30 degree microbevel and started trying it out.

Jules,

I think at least part of the problem lies in your microbevel.

A 30 degree microbevel plus the 12 degree bedding angle of the plane itself equals a 42 degree cutting angle instead of the 37 degree cutting angle the plane is supposed to have.

Compare this to the cutting angle of a "normal" block plane, i.e., 45 degrees, and you can see that you've gone more than halfway toward changing your LA plane to a normal-angle plane. :eek:

I'm afraid that the best thing to do would be either to grind a new main bevel at just under 25 degrees and then put on a 25 degree microbevel, or to cut a new main bevel at 25 degrees and hone the entire bevel.

:(

Tom

[Hunter Wallace]

I agree completely with the guys about the bevel angle...the purpose
of the "low angle" block is to cut at a low angle, 37 being lower than 42;)
I also agree that the cut looks a little thick/aggressive. The blade should
only protrude ever so slightly and the throat should be closed up super tight.
I also find that some parafin wax with my LN LA block(s) helps a ton to
reduce chatter when you begin pushing into the cut.
I think you're lucky you have this site to get hands on info from...I almost
gave up using a block plane on end grain until getting some of the very
advice I just listed above...

Good luck, and by all means, never stop trying!

[Jules Dominguez]

Richard, that line just appeared while I was working on the end grain, and it is a nick. The pictures are magnified and the shaving and the chatter marks probably look more substantial than they are. It's hard to pick the shavings in the picture up without them falling apart, so they're pretty thin, but I'll try backing the iron off a little more and see if I can still get shavings.
Tom, I read somewhere recently to use 30 degrees on hardwood such as cherry, which is why I put that microbevel on the iron. I also read to use a low angle to start, and if it's too low the blade will start getting nicks which will show up as scratches on the wood, and it looks like I've got a nick already at 30 degrees, so...? I'll work on it some more, I need the practice anyway. I worked my butt off trying to plane cherry end grain with an old Record standard angle block plane, but couldn't get rid of the chatter. I had hoped this new plane would make it easier, but I'm not there yet. I'd like to hear from anyone else who has the same problem. Or doesn't.

I wouldn't want to have to hone the whole bevel every time I get a nick, so if I do hone it down to take off the 30 degree bevel, I'll probably go back with a lower angle microbevel.
I know about the benefits of skewing and do skew, but maybe not enough. I'll pay more attention to it.

[Jules Dominguez]

Thanks, Hunter, I agree I'm lucky to have access to this site. Wish I'd had help like this about 40 years ago. I'm taking heed of the suggestions and will try most of them. One thing I'd find hard to accept is not using a microbevel at all, for the reason given above.

I'll definitely try the paraffin. I use it on side grain, but for some reason didn't think to use if on the end grain.

[Roy Wall]

Jules,

have you honed the back flat?

[Jules Dominguez]

Roy, I honed the back on the same waterstone that I used for the microbevel, until the back edge of the blade had the same polished finish appearance as the microbevel.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Hi Jules. The lines that are going perpendicular to the growth rings are part of the wood. They are not caused by chatter. You can see how they radiate from the center of the growth rings. As someone else noted you probably have a chip in your blade to cause the line going down the length of your cut.You obviously need to sharpen due to the chip but I would not worry about the micro bevel angle right now. If it cuts without too much of a problem then it is acceptable. When it is time to hit the grinder I would keep your 25* bevel and add a 2* microbevel. Lastly, the cut that you took is very thick. About 1/3 of that is more "normal". Don't worry about closing up the throat, it does not have much effect on end grain cutting as tear out is not a problem. In short, other than the chip and "possibly" to high of a cutting angle there is nothing wrong with what you have shown us. Peter

[Derek Cohen]

Jules

As others have stated, a 25 degree bevel is best for a low angle block plane that is used for cutting end grain.

Nevertheless, you can cut end grain with any angle - as your 30 degree bevel reveals - just that the lower angle will do so more easily.

The likely reason you are getting chatter (if that is chatter) is that your blade is extended too far (and are taking a shaving that is too thick). Solution: reduce the extension of the blade. But your lines do not look like chatter. Chatter would look like lines cut into the timber.

The "line" in the timber surface that others have said is a chip in your blade may be that, but I'd also be checking out whether you removed the wire edge when you honed the blade. This line looks like a piece of the wire edge had remained on the bevel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jules Dominguez]

Peter, Derek, thanks, good eye. Your comments led me to look at the end grain in question with a 15-power loupe and browse through Understanding Wood by Bruce Hoadley. The lines I took to be cuts from plane iron chatter are "rays" and are clearly shown in a picture on page 59 in the Wood Identification chapter and described in the accompanying text.

I plan to post again, with pictures of samples of end grain comparing the appearance as saw cut, sanded, and planed, with, of course, another question.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Jules, just for your own knowledge, take your plane and set it for a heavier cut. Try this out on end grain and on face grain, going with the grain and against it. You will fast learn what chatter is as well as tear out. It is usefull information... Peter

[Jules Dominguez]

Thanks, Peter, I've previously experienced tearout and have no trouble identifying it.

Over the years I've used planes mainly for jointing edges and then only when necessary to get a good glue line or get rid of saw tooth marks. I've never before seriously tried to finish end grain with a plane. The first time I ever heard of plane "chatter" was in my recent reading when I decided to stop sanding end grain and try to cut it with a plane. I guess I got hyper about it and immediately thought the ray lines were chatter when I saw them. So I obviously still haven't actually identified chatter, and I'll take your advice. I'm feeling a little bit foolish about this post at this point.

[Erin Raasch]

I'm feeling a little bit foolish about this post at this point.

Good heavens, please don't feel foolish!! There's a bit of a steep learning curve with hand planes, and learning without the hands-on training of someone more experienced is quite challenging. There are only about a gazillion things that can be done wrong (and I'm sure I've done all of them at least once), and it's really hard to know if you've finally got it right. I'm finding that even when it seemed I'd gotten it right, there was still room for me to take it to the next level, and the next.

Even if all you've learned from this post is that you're doing everything correctly, it has still been helpful and informative to those reading it . . . and there may be others reading it who had the same questions but were afraid to ask.

I don't think it can ever be called foolish to open up a discussion of hand-planing methods!

Erin

[Jules Dominguez]

Thanks, Erin.

[Jimmy Walker]

Jules I agree with Erin. In fact I have read every word of this thread trying to soak up all the info.

I'm real new to hand planes also and am just starting to collect a few. That Veritas LA is what I have been thinking about purchasing. Read a couple of reviews on it that seem to think it's a great LA BP.

Yes I have been noticing my arms getting longer and more hair on my knuckles...:eek:
I like it! :cool:

[Rye Crane]

Hi Jules,

I would agree with the previous posts. You may also want to try wetting the end grain with either mineral oil, or water. It will help soften the grain and won't hurt your plane. It's also a good idea when finished for the day to wipe your planes and irons down lightly with camilla oil it will help retard any rusting. Good Luck!

Rye Crane

[Keith Hooks]

Grats on the Veritas plane! I own that one myself and love it! This thread continues to be informative. Please update us if you learn anything new.