milling very small rasied panels

[jack forsberg]

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/smallpanel004_zps719278a4.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/smallpanel004_zps719278a4.jpg.html)

milling small pieces can be unsafe on the spindle moulder. here is what i do.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqZkxEMuZYg
anyone care to show/tell how they do it?

[Mark Bolton]

We just recently ran a bunch of panels that look like they may be a hair wider but were longer than your square panels. Im going to guess the unraised portion of the panel was 3/4" wide if that. Being long we were able to run the long sides conventionally with the feeder and I run the very short end grain on a sled with destacos.

Its kinda common as I do a lot of R/P drawer fronts so the panels get pretty short but they are always longer than they are tall and varied in length so the captured jig you made woudnt work but its a great idea.

I would love to have a way to feeder run the end grain on these super short, but long, panels but Ive yet to put much thought into it. Running the two operations sucks but it is what it is.

Nice work as always..

[Mel Fulks]

I nail through a piece of mdf to hold them butted together. End grain is ,of course ,..run first. Then I turn them all 90 degrees an run them again. Usually it's modilion block caps .

[Mark Bolton]

Here are some narrow ones,

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6pMT9hiMutE/Uza6urmFcdI/AAAAAAAADv4/fb8sjw1D-WM/w677-h903-no/IMG_2733.JPG

Corner further along,
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7H9XOwi2Gvk/Uza67QIhjlI/AAAAAAAADxg/L39rrM_VtGA/w677-h903-no/IMG_2751.JPG

R/P drawer fronts. Same job, upper drawers are are a bit wider but still a pain to run.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-5NEMAV8WsLg/Uh-pVCI3neI/AAAAAAAADHA/Lhy9UIXQFNY/w677-h903-no/IMG_2358.JPG

They get very challenging with back cuts when they are this narrow. There is very little on the back to sit on the table.

[J.R. Rutter]

I do similar to your method, Jack, but just assemble it with superglue with matching thickness end pieces and a top piece of 1/4" ply to hold the end caps and act as a pressure bar so that the feed wheels press down nice and hard.

[Pat Barry]

I do similar to your method, Jack, but just assemble it with superglue with matching thickness end pieces and a top piece of 1/4" ply to hold the end caps and act as a pressure bar so that the feed wheels press down nice and hard.
What? This doesn't sound similar at all. Do you have any pictures of this method?

[jack forsberg]

i would like to point out i am using continuous support and not a bearing/rub on the spindle as the fence.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/smallpanel016_zpsf6afce68.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/smallpanel016_zpsf6afce68.jpg.html)

Mark long sticks to me are like stiles so there is room from hold downs out side the feeder.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/smallpanel012_zpse0182473.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/smallpanel012_zpse0182473.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/smallpanel006_zpscf6f8329.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/smallpanel006_zpscf6f8329.jpg.html)

[Mark Bolton]

We run continuous fence as well, no rub collar. Your R/P profile looks like it may be slightly smaller than ours based on your caliper pics but I'm sure those narrow ones on the mantle are a bit over half inch. I'll have to look back in the software can't remember the panel width. In that kitchen there are a few banks of about 11x11 fronts that are short and short.

[Joe Calhoon]

We have done these a number of ways over the years. I think the best - safest method is the sliding table shaper. We even did the curve part of the panel by making one pass straight then coming back in with lighter pressure on the clamp and pressing against the bearing. Normally we bridge the opening but used a bearing here because of the curve.

The other pictures show a one off job we did with 70 or so small 7" x 7" panels using a corrugated head tilted to reduce projection. We built a sled with a lid to run 2 up with the feeder. It was tedious but safe.

287889287890287891

[jack forsberg]

thanks for chiming in Joe. We probably should not be milling them that small to begin with:eek:

the sliding table does look like like a little less support on the under side but i am sure the Martin makes up for it:)

thanks for the input


We have done these a number of ways over the years. I think the best - safest method is the sliding table shaper. We even did the curve part of the panel by making one pass straight then coming back in with lighter pressure on the clamp and pressing against the bearing. Normally we bridge the opening but used a bearing here because of the curve.

The other pictures show a one off job we did with 70 or so small 7" x 7" panels using a corrugated head tilted to reduce projection. We built a sled with a lid to run 2 up with the feeder. It was tedious but safe.

287889287890287891

[Joe Calhoon]

thanks for chiming in Joe. We probably should not be milling them that small to begin with:eek:

the sliding table does look like like a little less support on the under side but i am sure the Martin makes up for it:)

thanks for the input

Jack, the sliding table in the picture is our old Felder. I have never liked the in table sliders on a shaper. They can be made to work better by using a heavy iron or steel tenon plate. That is what the piece is clamped to in the picture. We do have a side mount table on the Martin now. It is absolutely rigid and can be adjusted right up to the cutter. I have not tried it for panels yet but sure it will work fine.
Joe

[John T Barker]

I hate to sound like a jerk but when a "raised panel" is as small as what is shown above it looks bad, IMO. A raised panel should look like a raised panel, not a pencil. I would suggest changing the design so that all the panels look panel like or omit them from the design altogether. Another option would be a different sized bevel if but I would leave it out over this. Sorry if this is offensive to anyone.

[David Kumm]

Jack, great video. Joe, that plate looks familiar. Glad you found a use for it. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

I hate to sound like a jerk but when a "raised panel" is as small as what is shown above it looks bad, IMO. A raised panel should look like a raised panel, not a pencil. I would suggest changing the design so that all the panels look panel like or omit them from the design altogether. Another option would be a different sized bevel if but I would leave it out over this. Sorry if this is offensive to anyone.

John, that is true. Sometimes we opt to put a flat panel in place of the RP. But other times the raise is called for. Depends on the design. We have done Southwest style doors that have multi panels similar to what Jack shows and I think they look good for this application.
Joe

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[jack forsberg]

i did consider not having raised or using glass/copper/stone/even a different wood or shape to the panel field but in the end it was becoming to busy and its all from one log the work. the panel work on the other side of the door(3" thick) is just a single plan 1/4 swan white OAK panel but that is going to be stained red on that side and i just want to see the grain.

The idea for the small square is a candle flame in abstract and the repetitive shape it the sash above. Not for everyone i am sure with a critical eye on design. The biggest problem was how to use the size of the wood i had for the panels if i wanted to keep it all from the same log and balanced. so the single square became the design i decided on .

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/tag007_zps39ef00ab.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/tag007_zps39ef00ab.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/tag008_zps538e982a.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/tag008_zps538e982a.jpg.html)






I hate to sound like a jerk but when a "raised panel" is as small as what is shown above it looks bad, IMO. A raised panel should look like a raised panel, not a pencil. I would suggest changing the design so that all the panels look panel like or omit them from the design altogether. Another option would be a different sized bevel if but I would leave it out over this. Sorry if this is offensive to anyone.

[Larry Edgerton]

I do similar to your method, Jack, but just assemble it with superglue with matching thickness end pieces and a top piece of 1/4" ply to hold the end caps and act as a pressure bar so that the feed wheels press down nice and hard.

I do something similar but the piece over the top is on a piano hinge to make it easier to flip the blocks. Also I run the long sides before I cut them into squares so I have half the cuts to do in the jig if it is a wood that is not prone to tearout.

[Mark Wooden]

I hate to sound like a jerk but when a "raised panel" is as small as what is shown above it looks bad, IMO. A raised panel should look like a raised panel, not a pencil. I would suggest changing the design so that all the panels look panel like or omit them from the design altogether. Another option would be a different sized bevel if but I would leave it out over this. Sorry if this is offensive to anyone.

To that- well, in my world, if the client, architect or designer wants it upside down and purple, they get it upside down and purple and as perfect as I can make it. As a carpenter, cabinet and millwork maker it's not my job to pass judgement on design, it's to make the product as called for. When people who work for me start passing judgement on design and start changing things to make it "look better", they're down the road.

Anyway, I use a carrier sled much like yours Jack, once I drilled a hole through the back and used a long trim screw to keep the panel in place. Another time I made a sled with cam handles to clamp the panels in when we had to make a few dozen of the same size. And the continuous fence under the panel cutter is something I do almost all the time when making panels. I just wish the cutter manufacturers would make a cutter with an extra 1/2" beyond the bore to allow more room a stock item. Custom costs a ton sometimes.

[Mark Bolton]

I hate to sound like a jerk but when a "raised panel" is as small as what is shown above it looks bad, IMO. A raised panel should look like a raised panel, not a pencil. I would suggest changing the design so that all the panels look panel like or omit them from the design altogether. Another option would be a different sized bevel if but I would leave it out over this. Sorry if this is offensive to anyone.

My position on it is very similar to Mark W's in that if its what the design calls for and what the customer wants I will give my input but if the cash hits the palm its a go. Im sure neither of us would compromise our integrity/reputation per say but thats the basic gist.

Additionally its easy to say "well I'd have done..." but when your working within the parameters and budget of a given job those things set the boundaries of what extent you can go to. I do a lot of work that is very budget focused yet just below what I would consider high end. You either have to be able to operate (and be profitable) within the confines of the project your on or else you say things like "I just cant do that" which means you either turn away the work, or you do what you think "should" be done at a reduced profit. Not my game.

Rersonally, and virtually every customer Ive worked for, absolutely love small panels. They are so subtle yet so intentional that they always draw people to them. In that kitchen for instance there is a bank of very small drawers. The four drawers have 5 piece fronts that are as small as we can possibly make them with our profiles and still have room on the panel for a knob. Virtually anyone that has walked into that kitchen goes directly to that bank of drawers and pulls one open.

Of course it depends on the design but myself I simply hate slab drawer fronts. If at all possible I will always try to get the customer to go with a 5 piece front but again, if its not in the budget or the design wont allow, so be it.

[Jeff Monson]

Of course it depends on the design but myself I simply hate slab drawer fronts. If at all possible I will always try to get the customer to go with a 5 piece front but again, if its not in the budget or the design wont allow, so be it.

I aree 100%, I would rather look at a small raised panel on a drawer front than a slab, 8 days of the week.

[Peter Quinn]

Last job at my last job (say that four times fast!) involved some smallish crotch walnut panels, honestly don't remember exactly how I did them, I recall a continuous fence and a carraige of sorts, wish I had seen or though of your method Jack, gonna try that next time. Certainly more certain than the cowboy method I used, at least the parts of it I can recall. I do remember being on eggshells the whole time. Jack, you have some elegant solutions for making big machines handle small parts, thanks for posting, much appreciated.

to John Barker, I truly support your right to your opinion, I don't happen to share it in this case, but in most cases in my professional career I have very little opinion, that's for the guy writing the checks. What you are suggesting is akin to telling the customer to shut up, that's just bad for business. I might suggest keeping an open mind. Some times an idea that didn't suit me in one context proved to teach a valuable lesson or be very pleasing in another.

[Peter Quinn]

I aree 100%, I would rather look at a small raised panel on a drawer front than a slab, 8 days of the week.

Slab guy here. Different stokes. I never cared for skinny long drawer fronts posing as doors, I can tolerate the essentially edge.banded variety with 1" frames, but much beyond that looks clumsy and heavy to my eye.

[Mark Bolton]

Slab guy here. Different stokes. I never cared for skinny long drawer fronts posing as doors, I can tolerate the essentially edge.banded variety with 1" frames, but much beyond that looks clumsy and heavy to my eye.

But what do your customers say? ;)

[David Kumm]

To my totally non artistic eye, fiddling with the width of the rails and stiles for small rectangular drawer fronts helps to balance out the narrow raised panels. Narrow tops and bottoms and wide sides. Dave

[Mark Bolton]

To my totally non artistic eye, fiddling with the width of the rails and stiles for small rectangular drawer fronts helps to balance out the narrow raised panels. Narrow tops and bottoms and wide sides. Dave

Completely agree. On that kitchen example we did that, reduced the width of the rails (to accommodate a pull instead of a knob) keeping the stiles the same as the taller doors. I didnt do it on the mantle because quite honestly I felt the narrow raised panel accentuated the width of the mantle. That one was a tough situation in general because I didnt agree with the design much at all (and worse its a faux fireplace) but again, its what the customer wanted and in the end I think its acceptable to me and thrilled them.. thats all that matters.

[Jeff Duncan]

honestly don't remember exactly how I did them, I recall a continuous fence and a carraige of sorts, wish I had seen or though of your method Jack, gonna try that next time. Certainly more certain than the cowboy method I used, at least the parts of it I can recall. I do remember being on eggshells the whole time. Jack, you have some elegant solutions for making big machines handle small parts, thanks for posting, much appreciated.



Man that totally resonates with me. I've done small/narrow parts in different ways and yet when I first read this I couldn't remember exactly how I'd done them? I have to come up with a system of easily recording these things so I don't have to re-invent the wheel each time! Memory is not going to get any better going forward, that's for sure! I don't have the time and patience that Jack does, (though I wish I did), but I really like how he is filming these setups! In my shop it always seems like I'm behind schedule and trying to play catchup!

JeffD…..looking forward to more videos in the future!

[Peter Quinn]

But what do your customers say? ;)

Oh, I'm an employee, I make what I'm told and say "yes sir" when doing so. :DWhen I'm doing my own stuff or side jobs where I have control, I can do exactly what I want. I should have added my preference against paneled drawer fronts is for the top drawer of a lower or sometimes the upper drawer of a drawer bank, when they get larger I really like the paneled fronts with full sized rails/stiles, wide slabs scare me. My favorite place for skinny panels is in a mantle surround or a panel jamb as part of a really elaborate room, or in newel posts, or....I do like skinny panels.

[J.R. Rutter]

To my totally non artistic eye, fiddling with the width of the rails and stiles for small rectangular drawer fronts helps to balance out the narrow raised panels. Narrow tops and bottoms and wide sides. Dave

I also fudge the panel profile reveal on the long edges by moving the shaper fence out. You can only go so far, but every bit helps. We try to keep a 1" minimum on the field so that the end user can attach drawer pulls there if they like.

[Rick Potter]

Jack,

I hope this is a lead in to a pictorial tour of your house someday :) .

[Mark Wooden]

.........I have to come up with a system of easily recording these things so I don't have to re-invent the wheel each time! Memory is not going to get any better going forward, that's for sure!
JeffD…..looking forward to more videos in the future!

Pssst- Jeff! Cellphone camera! ;)

Hear ya though. I started taking pics of set ups just so I wouldn't have to re invent the wheel with seldom used stuff.And then can't remember that I took the pictures.

[Larry Edgerton]

I don't think Jack posted this as a critique of his work, but rather to show a safe way to do small panels when they are needed. If you do or do not like the panels was a question that was never asked.

Larry

[Steve Juhasz]

I hate to sound like a jerk but when a "raised panel" is as small as what is shown above it looks bad, IMO. A raised panel should look like a raised panel, not a pencil. I would suggest changing the design so that all the panels look panel like or omit them from the design altogether. Another option would be a different sized bevel if but I would leave it out over this. Sorry if this is offensive to anyone.

Not offensive, but not very relevant either. Remember John, not all these projects are being done for you or by home hobbyists for their grandmas. These projects are being done for customers who pay for that design, and believe it or not, their tastes are all over the place and the builder needs to please them not you. If you were a house painter and the customer wanted hot pink all over the walls, you don't say "I don't like that color, I think you should change the color altogether because I believe a house should be white not pink" you would not get the job. The posts describing the process of making ugly little raised panels is very important to those of us who do this professionally and need to please our customers without cutting off our fingers or destroying a hundred pieces of wood in the process.

[Mel Fulks]

Steve,I agree with you to the extent that when working with an architects drawings it's best to not suggest changes. But
when it's a design build and the clients basic concept is flawed,or when I see a chance to improve it ,or if I think I have a
a more appropriate idea ...I speak up. The word "professional" is these days often applied to trade work. If you call yourself
a professional you must speak up. Just as a doctor who has a patient with an ingrown toenail ....and wants his leg amputated must ...suggest another plan.

[Peter Quinn]

Steve,I agree with you to the extent that when working with an architects drawings it's best to not suggest changes. But
when it's a design build and the clients basic concept is flawed,or when I see a chance to improve it ,or if I think I have a
a more appropriate idea ...I speak up. The word "professional" is these days often applied to trade work. If you call yourself
a professional you must speak up. Just as a doctor who has a patient with an ingrown toenail ....and wants his leg amputated must ...suggest another plan.

Mel. I truly wish we got a similar level of respect in our profession as doctors generally do in theirs. Perhaps if we had advanced degrees and some letters after the name? Peter Quinn. AWB (Advanced Wood Butcher).

[jack forsberg]

thanks everyone for the design opinions. I am the designer and so i did not have to did it for the someone other than my myself. That said it is a new door design we are developing for our clients .

I would be open to more of your opinion on what else you would change or dis like.

finished panel work interior
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/door001_zps96a38329.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/door001_zps96a38329.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/jam002_zps96149705.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/jam002_zps96149705.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/jam003_zps8055969a.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/jam003_zps8055969a.jpg.html)

exterior side

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/door004_zps1a2b5ccf.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/door004_zps1a2b5ccf.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/door005_zpsf1495b71.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/door005_zpsf1495b71.jpg.html)