Help me decide on some new water stones

[Dennis Hawkins]

Greetings all

I'm in the market for my first set of water stones and I have it narrowed down to two choices.
(1) Shapton Pro Orange 1000 and Pro Melon 8000
or
(2) The Sigma Power ceramic set 1000 + 6000 .

I'm going to also buy the iWood #300 to keep them flat.

I'm a hobby woodworker with a small collection of hand tools in both A2 and O1 steel.

I've never used water stones so I have zip for knowledge on this stuff.

I know there are numbers of members who have hands-on experience with both of these products and would like some advice as to why I might choose one set over the other.

Thank you for your time.
Dennis.

[Jim Koepke]

Dennis,

I am not really the one to know the ins and outs of particular water stones. I also do not know if those are stones Stu is selling or if you are using a different source.

Stu is at toosfromjapan.com

Most folks here who have ordered from him are very happy.

I also like to have a stone between the 1K and the 8K. My in between is a 4K.

I am all excited because two translucent Arks, one slipstones and one triangle shape, came today. Put an old gouge to one and being new it is cutting fast for an Arkansas stone.

jtk

[Dennis Hawkins]

Yes Jim
I'm looking at both sets of stones on the toolsfromjapan website .
I would like some feedback from those on this forum who have actually used either or both of these products. I'm totally green on this one.
I'm thinking the two stone set-up will get me started and do most of what I need. I'm just not sure about which way to go. There is some money difference between the two sets but the cost alone is not going to drive my decision.

[Jim Koepke]

My preference is for a finer stone than a 6,000.

Just my opinion that the sharper the tool is when it is put to work the longer it will be before it needs another trip to the stones.

jtk

[Paul McGaha]

Stu's 3 piece set is nice. 3 good stones and a Atoma 400 diamond plate. A lot of bang for the buck with that set.

PHM

[Winton Applegate]

I have not used the Sigma's.
I really like my Shapton Pros.
I am assuming you have a power grinder ala David Weaver. That is a fine way to go.
If not then I recommend a much coarser stone IN ADDITION to the stones you listed. Or maybe the iWood 300 will do that I am not at all familiar with what that is. If it is a 300 diamond plate then fine.
I go even to a Shapton 120 white because I almost never power grind (though I have a metal shop full of many grinders).
TOTAL NEANDER MAN, TOTAL NEANDER.

[Dennis Hawkins]

I have not used the Sigma's.
I really like my Shapton Pros.
I am assuming you have a power grinder ala David Weaver. That is a fine way to go.
If not then I recommend a much coarser stone IN ADDITION to the stones you listed. Or maybe the iWood 300 will do that I am not at all familiar with what that is. If it is a 300 diamond plate then fine.
I go even to a Shapton 120 white because I almost never power grind (though I have a metal shop full of many grinders).
TOTAL NEANDER MAN, TOTAL NEANDER.

Winton
I do have an 8" slow speed grinder with the proper wheel for hollow grinding so I'll be able to go directly to the 1000.
The iWood #300 is indeed a diamond plate which I intend to use strictly for keeping the water stones flat.

[Robert Culver]

I have the 1000 and 8000 and 16000 shapton pro I started with just the 1000 and 8000 and was very happy with them I use it with the coarse diamond plate, and a horse butt strop. This has handled pretty much all my needs I like the fact that it just takes a quick spray of water to get going no soaking. either set you have listed will work and stu has good prices it does however take a little time to get the stones from japan

[David Weaver]

Shapton pros, glue them to something.

Buy the atoma 400 instead, even if you have to get it without the base.

[Robert McNaull]

I have the 1200 hard and 8k sigmas from Stu. They are good stones and were are my first real sharpening stones. The atoma is definitely a good buy I think, I didn't think to buy one when I ordered the stones and ended up buying a DMT 2 sided that does the flattening work. If I had to do it again I would probably go with the 3 stone combo of I believe 1k, 6k, and 13k, especially the 1k as the 1200 seems to glaze over rather quickly at times and needs refreshing with the diamond plate to keep up a good cutting pace. My plane blades are A2 and I have mostly vintage chisels (stanley and witherby). I am looking for a good oilstone to work my vintage iron and for sharpening knives, the water stones do a fine job, it just bother me sometimes to put water 'on' old tools.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Not much experience with the stones you mention (although I have a 1K Sigma and love it) but I don't think you'd be terribly put off with either of the stones you mention. The big difference from my understanding is that the Shaptons are a lot more splash-and-go, and don't really require soaking, which might be a big plus or not in your book.

I don't really make it up to the Kingdom much anymore, Dennis, but if you're ever in the Champlain valley, PM me and let me know if I can be of help - I'm certainly no expert, but I've got at least some experience. I'm using mostly the Sigma 1K and the Naniwa Snow White now, and I've got a grinder and some guides. Going by some of your previous posts, I doubt you need a hand at all, but I figured I'd throw it out there!

I like a 1K/8K setup if the 8K can handle the jump, but prefer something in between if I'm working with blades that need a lot of work (vintage stuff that requires more attention to the back as opposed to stuff you've gotten into shape or a nice modern iron) But that's just me.

[john zulu]

The shapton will serve you well. I have the 2000,5000 and 8000. No issues there. For flattening I use Iwood 800. 300 is too abrasive and will wear down the stone much faster.

[David Wong]

All of the stones mentioned so far in this thread are all great and you will be happy with whichever you choose. You did not mention if you will be sharpening freehand or with a guide. If you are just learning freehand sharpening, an inexpensive King 800 or 1000 might be useful to you. They are messy and soft, but have great feedback and are very clog resistant. Another benefit is that they are slower cutting stones, which is great when learning, since your mistakes will not be so great. One of my favorite stones is a King 800. If I have to fix a bevel, I'll start with the King 800 and go to a Shapton Pro 2000 or Aoto natural stone.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Dennis

Based on my experience with the Shapton Pros (1000/5000/8000/12000) over several years and the Sigma Power (1200/6000/10000/13000) over the past few years, I would choose the Shapton Pro 1000, Sigma 6000 and Sigma 13000 as a set.

The Shapton 1000 offers more feedback and cuts faster than the Sigma 1200.

The Sigma 6000 cuts faster than the Shapton Pro 5000. I see both as intermediary stones, and not as finish stones. They can both be skipped if working from a micro bevel.

The Sigma 13000 leaves a finish similar to the Shapton Pro 12000 (I doubt that you would tell the difference), but gets there faster on the tougher steels, such as A2.

Both stone makes benefit from frequent dressing and the use of soapy water (although Stu will disagree) since I find they load up quickly otherwise and stiction sets in. The alternative is to use lots of water. I also find that the Shapton are more convenient to use since they come in a nice plastic box, which doubles as a holder when using them. The Sigmas are a little larger and do not fit these boxes. I often wish something like this was available. What this indicates that that they are much of a muchness in use and, unless you were comparing the stones against each other, then you would be happy with either. Both do the job and with little fuss. They are hard stones and remain flat.

I epoxied my Shapton Pros to 6mm glass plate many years ago, and find that this has helped in keeping them flat. They have a long way to go to wear out, but the extra heft from the glass makes the stones feel solid.

For context, I hone on a hollow grind, so I am largely honing micro or smaller amounts of steel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Paul McGaha]

Hi Dennis

Based on my experience with the Shapton Pros (1000/5000/8000/12000) over several years and the Sigma Power (1200/6000/10000/13000) over the past few years, I would choose the Shapton Pro 1000, Sigma 6000 and Sigma 13000 as a set.

The Shapton 1000 offers more feedback and cuts faster than the Sigma 1200.

The Sigma 6000 cuts faster than the Shapton Pro 5000. I see both as intermediary stones, and not as finish stones. They can both be skipped if working from a micro bevel.

The Sigma 13000 leaves a finish similar to the Shapton Pro 12000 (I doubt that you would tell the difference), but gets there faster on the tougher steels, such as A2.

Both stone makes benefit from frequent dressing and the use of soapy water (although Stu will disagree) since I find they load up quickly otherwise and stiction sets in. The alternative is to use lots of water. I also find that the Shapton are more convenient to use since they come in a nice plastic box, which doubles as a holder when using them. The Sigmas are a little larger and do not fit these boxes. I often wish something like this was available. What this indicates that that they are much of a muchness in use and, unless you were comparing the stones against each other, then you would be happy with either. Both do the job and with little fuss. They are hard stones and remain flat.

I epoxied my Shapton Pros to 6mm glass plate many years ago, and find that this has helped in keeping them flat. They have a long way to go to wear out, but the extra heft from the glass makes the stones feel solid.

For context, I hone on a hollow grind, so I am largely honing micro or smaller amounts of steel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I agree with pretty much all of that Derek.

I have the Sigma Power Select II 1200 grit, a Norton 1000 and a Shapton Pro 1000 and I like the Shapton Pro 1000 best of these stones (by far). I've found the Shapton Pro 1000 is the best of the Shapton Pro Stones. I think I read somewhere that Stu said a Shapton Pro 1000 is really more like a 800 grit stone.

The Shapton Pro 12000 is a good stone too but I like the Sigma Power 13000 better.

Just my opinion but the Shapton Pro 5000 is a stone to be avoided. The Sigma Power 6000 is a much better stone.

So, to me, Derek's suggestion of a Shapton Pro 1000 and Sigma Power 6000 and 13000 would make a fine 3 stone set.

I'd stay with the Atoma 400 diamond plate to keep the stones flat.

Stu is very knowledgeable about stones and very easy to talk to.

PHM

[David Weaver]

I think most mid-grit stones aren't going to be found favorable for various reasons. In the premium stones, they are in the 3-4 micron range, which isn't fine enough for most peoples' taste as finishers and they're not fast either because of the small particles.

They're really intended for a rotation where you're sharpening knives and the appearance of the bevel is important (thus a tighter progression is also more important). But for tools, their usefulness is limited to either using them as a final step and then stropping or when you're flattening a new tool.

The 3000 chosera is the only mid grit stone that I've used that really has some bite. The SP II 3000 also has bite, but it's a softer stone, probably silicon carbide, and cuts differently (but dominates a natural aoto in every way without being as soft as a natural aoto).

I've heard more than one person say they are nonplussed with the chosera 5000, which is a 3 micron stone (that I've never used), and probably for the same reason, BUT you'll see guys who sharpen knives for show including them because they make a more uniform appearing bevel and faster.

I suppose in shaptons system, you could go 1000-2000-5000-8000-15000. when I had shaptons, I skipped the three middle stones, often even when flattening something new.

[George Vincent]

I received my Sigma Ceramic stones from Tools from Japan http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/inde...roducts_id=1667 (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667)

I have spent the last several days sharpening some of my plane blades and the results are superb. The 13000 stone puts a finish on in which I could shave.

They are fantastic and the deal that T of J offers includes 1000-6000-13000 stones, a Atoma 400 for flattening, a tray and mounting block for the stone and a bottle to add water to the stones while sharpening.

I would not hesitate to recommend these to anyone especially those just getting started in sharpening. The packaging was superb and dealing with T of J was a pleasure.

[Christopher Charles]

Hello George,

Are you soaking or just spraying your Sigmas? And congrats!

C

[Steve Friedman]

So, to me, Derek's suggestion of a Shapton Pro 1000 and Sigma Power 6000 and 13000 would make a fine 3 stone set.

I have gone to this as my basic 3-stone setup and love it. The Sigma 1200 comes out occasionally, but I really prefer the Shapton Pro 1000. More aggressive, no soak, stays flat, and great feedback.

My experience is that the Sigma 1200 really needs to be soaked and longer is better. I find that I can use the Sigma 6000 and 13000 without soaking, but they are a little friendlier with a short soak. I don't soak the Shapton at all.

Steve

[Terry Beadle]

I think your should consider a water stone of a lower grit in your system ( which ever one you pick ).
I have a 400 ceramic I bought from Stu that's really good at removing nicks or making cutting angle adjustments. It's also a really good stone in terms of maintaining flatness.

I only recommend this lower grit because as a starter, you will probably be buying chisels, planes, and the like. This low grit stone will really shorten your sharpening time getting an new tool ( new or new to you ) into shape where the 1000 grit stone can start your progression. You can go from a 1000 grit stone to a 8000 grit ( I think 8000 is better than a 6000 ) and then consider a 3000 to 4000 grit intermediate stone. I use a ceramic 3000 stone I bought from a fellow Saw Mill Creeker and I've found that it's just the right thing to start with when resharpening a blade that's been honed several times and needs a restart. Just my opinion.

What ever you decide, remember....it's a slippery slope !!!! Hoot!

Enjoy the shavings.

[Dave Parkis]

I have the Sigma Ceramic Stones from Stu in 1000/6000/13000 grits. As has been mentioned, the 1000 requires soaking. The 6000 works okay with just spraying, but I think it work better if soaked for a few minutes. I usually keep both the 1000 and 6000 soaking in tubs, so its not an issue for me. The 13000 is really, really good with just spraying or squirting some water on it. I bought mine when the dollar was pretty low against the yen and the set cost me about $350 with shipping. I understand the set is much less expensive now and includes a tray. If I were looking for stones, I'd buy these again without hesitation.

[Rich Riddle]

Dennis,

Stu is at toosfromjapan.com

Most folks here who have ordered from him are very happy.

Stu really helped a long when purchasing. He asks many questions but can guide you toward the proper stones for the job.

[Dennis Hawkins]

Not much experience with the stones you mention (although I have a 1K Sigma and love it) but I don't think you'd be terribly put off with either of the stones you mention. The big difference from my understanding is that the Shaptons are a lot more splash-and-go, and don't really require soaking, which might be a big plus or not in your book.

I don't really make it up to the Kingdom much anymore, Dennis, but if you're ever in the Champlain valley, PM me and let me know if I can be of help

Thank you for the offer and I just might take you up on that one day. I do make it over to Burlington from time to time.
The splash-and-go idea is appealing but I guess if I have to soak that would not be too much of a bother either.

[Dennis Hawkins]

Hi Dennis

Based on my experience with the Shapton Pros (1000/5000/8000/12000) over several years and the Sigma Power (1200/6000/10000/13000) over the past few years, I would choose the Shapton Pro 1000, Sigma 6000 and Sigma 13000 as a set.

The Shapton 1000 offers more feedback and cuts faster than the Sigma 1200.

The Sigma 6000 cuts faster than the Shapton Pro 5000. I see both as intermediary stones, and not as finish stones. They can both be skipped if working from a micro bevel.

The Sigma 13000 leaves a finish similar to the Shapton Pro 12000 (I doubt that you would tell the difference), but gets there faster on the tougher steels, such as A2.

Both stone makes benefit from frequent dressing and the use of soapy water (although Stu will disagree) since I find they load up quickly otherwise and stiction sets in. The alternative is to use lots of water. I also find that the Shapton are more convenient to use since they come in a nice plastic box, which doubles as a holder when using them. The Sigmas are a little larger and do not fit these boxes. I often wish something like this was available. What this indicates that that they are much of a muchness in use and, unless you were comparing the stones against each other, then you would be happy with either. Both do the job and with little fuss. They are hard stones and remain flat.

I epoxied my Shapton Pros to 6mm glass plate many years ago, and find that this has helped in keeping them flat. They have a long way to go to wear out, but the extra heft from the glass makes the stones feel solid.

For context, I hone on a hollow grind, so I am largely honing micro or smaller amounts of steel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek
You mention the Shapton Pro 1000 over the Sigma 1200 but what about the Shapton Pro 1000 vs the Sigma Power 1000 (hard) that is part of the 3 stone set offered by Stu ?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Dennis

I have not used the Sigma 1000 so cannot comment on this. My route to the system I use was a little unplanned.

For several years I used Shapton Pro 1000/5000/12000. I had a couple if years on a 8000 as well, before upgrading. The decision to seek out the Sigmas came about because I disliked the 5000 - it was slow and acted as if glazed - and I thought that the 12000 could be improved as well on A2. Further, at that stage I was testing steels for LV and there was the possibility that a number of tougher steels could come to market. After discussion with Stu I purchased a 6000 and 10000. It was not too long after this that Stu sent me a combination 1200/13000 to try out. His comment at the time was that the 1200 was the better stone (dished less and was faster) compared to the Sigma 1000.

The Sigma 1200 needs to be soaked, compared with the Shapton Pro 1000, which just needs a spritz. My eventual preference for the latter was not just this, but that it simply does not cut it (!) as well as the Shapton Pro 1000. The Sigma 6000 and 13000 are excellent, and definitely better than the Shaptons - unless you are only sharpening O1 steel, and then you likely will not tell the difference.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dennis Hawkins]

Thank you Derek and everyone else who has commented on this thread.
This is helpful and I'll look at how your suggestion works out price-wise and make a decision.
D.

[Matthew N. Masail]

another combo would be a shapton 1k and Naniwa snow-white 8K

you can get the snow-white at chefknivestogo.com

on a budget that is what I would get. around 150$ shipped for the pair. add an Iwood300 (great plate for stones, less so for steel) and you have a set that IMO beats the sigma 1k+6K

I have not used the snow-white but I have used the sigmas. the snow-white is a chosera like stone, seems to be getting all the rave, and it makes sense.


I don't love the sigma 6k so much, doesn't feel great and is very hard but not in the nice way, just my opinion.


I don't recommend the 1.2k sigma as a 1k, it's too slow and loads too easily. the 1k might be better, but a bester would be faster.

another plus the set is no-soak

[David Weaver]

The snow white is a really good stone - as good as any 8k stone anywhere. I did have one, someone else on here has it now. It was only a twitch less smooth and a twitch more coarse than the 10k chosera.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

The snow white is a really good stone - as good as any 8k stone anywhere. I did have one, someone else on here has it now. It was only a twitch less smooth and a twitch more coarse than the 10k chosera.

That'd be me who has it now, I believe. I'm really liking it. After getting a Sigma 1K from another poster here, I realized I liked harder stones better than the softer ones I was using - David was offering a fair price and saved me a bit of money over new, and Chris G had recommended the stone.

I don't have a lot of varied stone experience, but know that I like it a lot. It's a bit more aggressive than the some of the finer grit stones I had used - certainly the previous stones I had used, something in that range felt more like it polished than abraded, where as I get the feel that the Snow White does both; it takes maybe a little longer, but it can easily take over right after my 1K Sigma.

About the only time I really find myself wanting a mid-range stone is if I have to do a fair amount of work on the back of the blade - having been picking up used chisels here and there, sometimes they require a fair amount of work on the back, (a lot more, if like last time, I manage to dub the edges when sandpapering things) and going from the 1K to the SW 8K there is more work than I really want to do. But for day to day sharpening of tools I've maintained well, I can go from the dry grinder (if needed - usually not) to the 1K on the bevel, jump to the snow white 8K to work the bevel and back, and be back in business, relatively quickly if the stones are wet.

[Shannon Brantley]

Why do some stones need to be glued to a base to stay flat? Do they warp? The 6000 is offered with a base as an option. Does that prevent being able to store the stone in water? And is storing them in water a bad idea?

Great info in this thread. Thanks guys

[Steve Friedman]

I never know that stones could warp, but the Sigma 6000 base can live in water. That said, I prefer it with less soak time. Also, I prefer stones with no base because it lets me flatten both sides, which doubles the amount of time between flattening. Maybe that's just me.

Steve

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'd imagine the big benefit is that you can use a stone right down until the very end, well past the point where it'd be thin enough that it might crack easily if wasn't glued to a base; the Shapton Glass-stones being the far end of this (at least as a thin stone being sold new). One caveat I found with the lower end Naniwa Superstones I had purchased (which are attached to a plastic base) is that if the stones aren't well adhered to the base, or the base isn't ideal the benefits aren't really there; the 1K Superstone I had, either the stone was poorly-adhered to the base or the base itself was flexing (I believe it was the former) and as such, the stone would flex under use - this was particularly noticeable when flattening the stone. Fine Woodworking noted as much in their review of Superstones when reviewing a variety of waterstones not that long ago.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Steve brings up a good point - with my new, baseless stones, I like having the both sides available; I often sharpen smaller tools (gouges, tiny chisels, etc) on the back of the stone - if the stone gouges, or concentrated wear makes out-of-flatness more pronounced, the other side is still available for plane blades. Last time I honed card-scraper edges, I used the sides of the stone. I also did the same (using the side) when sharpening a tiny jewellers screwdriver to work as an impromptu chisel for some inlay; the itty-bitty blade width wore a bit of a rut in the stone, and it as nice not to have that on the working face.

[David Weaver]

Why do some stones need to be glued to a base to stay flat? Do they warp? The 6000 is offered with a base as an option. Does that prevent being able to store the stone in water? And is storing them in water a bad idea?

Great info in this thread. Thanks guys

I never glued a stone to a base to keep it flat, I glued stones to bases so they'd have the same stable massive feeling that you get when you get your fingers on a 2 inch thick natural japanese finisher. The elevation of a bigger stone is nice, and the weight means you can use it with a little less pucker factor (that you might sling it somewhere or bump it around).

I glued any stone that i had that I used a lot - to something like cocobolo or kingwood - so it would have the decent massive feel and the elevation of a much more expensive stone.

The only stone I've heard of having a significant warping issue (and most of the complaining was by folks sharpening razors where flatness in certain dimensions is more critical) is the naniwa superstones.

[Brian Loran]

you can use it with a little less pucker factor (that you might sling it somewhere or bump it around).

hahaha... I have had that feeling!

[Paul McGaha]

Per Stu's suggestion I soak all my stones for about 10 minutes. The Shapton Pro's, Sigma Power's, all of them, all the grits.

I think it softens them up a little and helps them get going.

PHM

[George Vincent]

Chris, this is a response I received from Stu regarding my stones and I have been following his advice.

You can use both sides, they're both the same and it's personal choice. I don't myself, but there's no reason to do so or not.

Soaking is again, personal choice. I tend to 'soak' the 1000 range Sigma stones for about a minute or less, and just start using them while they're not yet soaked. I add water as needed for as long as needed. Normally, soaking these stones fully takes 1-2 minutes. Drying needs no special care, and they can also be permanently soaked if you wish. The 6000 and 13000 I use splashed only as a rule, simply wetting them down and starting, then adding water as it's needed for only as long as needed. Again you can soak them or not for as long as you wish, drying needs no special care and whichever you find to be best for you is best. Soaked they tend to work faster, splashed not so fast but they will 'load' and give a smoother edge and/or a polish. Use both, see what you prefer and I hope you've done so before now. Don't worry, it's very difficult to hurt these stones with water or lack of it, so no fear of damaging them with too much or too little.

Flattening is very much a case of 'as needed', and it's variable. When I am sharpening, I tend to work the bevel and finish there, and if I think the stone is not flat, I'll flatten and do the back. If I've not used the stone that much, I'll not flatten. If I'm preparing a new blade, I'll flatten frequently and if it's a blade that's well used and I don't care so much, I'll put off flattening. Generally however, my stones tend to not get out of flat by enough to notice and if in doubt, err on the side of caution and flatten more frequently. I must say that most of the time, I'm flattening less than cleaning and conditioning.

Basically, flatten as often as you feel you need to. It's something you'll discover as you use the stones and at some point, you'll know when to keep on going and when to stop and flatten.

[Dennis Hawkins]

I ordered the Sigma Power Ceramic 3 stone set as offered by Stuart at toolsfromjapan.
I'm now waiting in anticipation for the order to arrive. Looking forward to bringing my sharpening to the next level.

[George Vincent]

Dennis, I don't think you will be disappointed. It took me just over 3 weeks before the stones arrived. Stu will send you a tracking number. The packaging was superb and the order was shipped in 3 boxes.

[Randy Karst]

Just to add an additional voice of agreement: The 3 stone set from Stu is very nice and accommodates a variety steels well-feel confident in your purchase and enjoy-the hard part now is awaiting their arrival!