Comments and questions about David Marks

[Jerry Ingraham]

Hi Everybody,
After being a very devoted fan of NYW, having recorded and cataloged every episode, having built a number of his pieces, and really admiring his work I fear Norm has competition for my attention! We recently started receiving DIY and I am very impressed with David Marks' skills, knowledge, and artistry. I have, so far, recorded about 60 of his shows and learn something from each one. Seeing him show up at various backyard bbq's of posters here and elsewhere is awesome! I truly hope someday to be able to take a class or two from him.
I have noticed some references to "plastic resin glue" and wondered if any of you know what brand or type of adhesive that is? Just curious. I also wonder if anyone has info or experience on his multi-router? His use of floating tenons versus integral tenons and the ease with which it seems to cut the mortises intrigues me. Thanks.
Jerry

[Dick Parr]

Jerry,

Go take a look at Davids web site and I think there is a page for Q&A.

http://www.djmarks.com/

I also will send you a PM

I forgot to mention that David sells those Multi Routers if you are interested, but be ready for sticker shock :eek: :D

[Cecil Arnold]

Jerry, plastic resen glue is, I think, what we commonly call epoxy. As to the multi router, I too lusted for one until I had a chance to see the price. It's about half the cost of a combination machine (Robland or Mini-Max) which starts to make one look even more attractive.

[Frank Hagan]

Plastic resin glue: the most common brand name is DAP Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue:


http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/wppages/p60-99/weldwood.jpg

You can buy it on-line at http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/wppages/weldwood.php and I see it occasionally at Home Depot in 1 # containers.

Mixing it can be a challenge. The trick is to use cold water, and mix a little water into it at a time, and mix completely ... you start out with a dry crumbly mix and then, if you do it right, you keep adding a little bit of water and mix, then more and mix, and you finally get a smooth liquid. If you don't do it right, you get lumpy glue.

It is very strong, but also very rigid. It will require a chisle to get it off of concrete, and the powder can adhere to bathroom sinks requiring replacement (don't ask me how I know this ... ;) )

[Greg Mann]

I also wonder if anyone has info or experience on his multi-router? His use of floating tenons versus integral tenons and the ease with which it seems to cut the mortises intrigues me. Thanks.
Jerry

Call me crazy, but it seems to me that using floating tenons greatly negates the advantages of the multi-router. I'm not saying it's not a good tool, but there are many ways to cut mortices quickly (such as the rig that John Stevens has posted in just the last day or so). If you are not making rounded tenons right on the mating part, but instead making loose tenons somewhere else...? What might I be missing?

I know this has nothing to do with Norm or D. Marks. Just an observation.

Greg

[Chris Padilla]

...and the powder can adhere to bathroom sinks requiring replacement (don't ask me how I know this ... ;) )

:D hahahaha...that just made my weekend! :D

[Jerry Ingraham]

I assumed that the Multi-Router would be expensive, I was just curious. I agree that there are many and simpler ways to cut mortises, it's just that his heavy use of it causes tool envy!
Frank, I will avoid any porcelain fixtures completely with resin glue should I decide to try some! :D

[Mike Cutler]

Greg. The loose tenon has one signicant advantage. Speed. Cutting the mortise is easy enough, but matching the tenon to the mortise takes a little time. With floating tenons all your mortises can be made with a single router bit and your tenon stock made up well in advance, and then cut to length as needed. Think "BeadLok. I'm a traditional M&T guy personally, but floating/loose tenons can greatly speed up the project with no loss of joint integerity.
I breifley met David Marks a few years back, and he is very much down to earth. The folks that have taken classes/lessons from him echo that sentiment.

[Kurt Voss]

Call me crazy, but it seems to me that using floating tenons greatly negates the advantages of the multi-router. I'm not saying it's not a good tool, but there are many ways to cut mortices quickly (such as the rig that John Stevens has posted in just the last day or so). If you are not making rounded tenons right on the mating part, but instead making loose tenons somewhere else...? What might I be missing?

I know this has nothing to do with Norm or D. Marks. Just an observation.

Greg

He seems to have anticipated this question - click here (http://www.djmarks.com/stories/djm/Loose_Tenon_Joinery_90627.asp).

[Greg Mann]

Greg. The loose tenon has one signicant advantage. Speed. Cutting the mortise is easy enough, but matching the tenon to the mortise takes a little time. With floating tenons all your mortises can be made with a single router bit and your tenon stock made up well in advance, and then cut to length as needed. Think "BeadLok. I'm a traditional M&T guy personally, but floating/loose tenons can greatly speed up the project with no loss of joint integerity.
I breifley met David Marks a few years back, and he is very much down to earth. The folks that have taken classes/lessons from him echo that sentiment.

That was my point. Since mortices are the easy part, the multi-router's utility isn't exploited that much. I have never met David Marks but he seems to have made good impressions on just about everybody who has. That's good enough for me.

[Greg Mann]

He seems to have anticipated this question - click here (http://www.djmarks.com/stories/djm/Loose_Tenon_Joinery_90627.asp).

I have no problem with loose tenons, I kinda like 'em. My point was that the mult-router is probably overkill if you are not also making tenons, but if anyone wants to do either or both with a multi-router they can go for it. Heck, I have a few tools that others would say I am crazy to have and if life treats me well I'll have a few more. :D

[Dev Emch]

Hi Jerry, et al...

Yes, your observations are accurate. David Marks is quite a fellow. The first thing I noticed as a difference between say David and Norm is that David is more like the rest of us. His tool collection has both galoot style tools as well as normite electron burners. Also notice that he does not have the standard collection of sponsors... thus, he has an ecclectic collection of machines. Many of his tools are vintage OWWM. Check out his bandsaws and his 16 inch American Patternmaker jointer! His table saw is a semi-vintage Rockwell version of a unisaw. Recent additions include a new Oneway lathe. I have also seen him using an oliver lathe as well. And check out that drill press! That is a vintage Walker Turner that is at least 50 or more years old. And his planer appears to be a 12 inch Parks. Its nice to see one of these programs *BEFORE* the delta/powermatic/grizzley sponsorship cantaminates everything.

I personally avoid floating tenons. There is nothing wrong with using them ; however, there is one technical aspect to consider. I draw bore many of my joints. In a floating tenon, that often means placing a portion of the floating tenon into shear loading which is not needed nor recommended. In a conventional tenon, this is not a normally a problem. If your not draw boring, then I see no real reason to use or not use a floating tenon. It becomes a matter of personal choice.

The multi-router is an unsual router jig. It is actually the closest jig I have come across that ressembles a true milling machine for wood outside of those using Bridgeport style Knee mills for milling wood. Yes, you can use a bridgeport milling machine for wood. A buddy of mine does it all the time. In many respects, the multi-router is actually better in some ways than the milling machine.

But the price is very high for what you get. One reason the price is so high is that the multi-router actually uses about $500 to $650 dollars worth of SGS Thompson sliding bearings in three axis! It is well made and is the ultimate joint making router jig because it mimicks the funtionality of a milling machine.

There are a number of heavy duty machines that also do this work. I have a sliding table on my wood shaper and have found that I can do almost everything a multirouter can on my shaper so I have no need for it. But if I were doing this as a hobby, the multi-router would be a welcome addition. Its just that the price is way up there for what you get. You will also notice that used multi-routers sell for darn near the same price as new ones. I have seen a few go on flezzzbaye and was blown away at the final price.

[Dev Emch]

One other quick point regarding the use of the multirouter for floating tenons.

The biggest problem you have in floating tenons is precision. You have to cut the two mortises very precisely to get everything to fit nicely. Then you also have to maintain a high level of registration precision between the two mortises to allow that floating tenon to fit.

As mentioned before, the multi-router mimicks a milling machine and hence, its accuracy. This makes cutting this type of joint quick and easy. This is esp true if you have multiple tenons. So even though your not limited to using floating tenons, the multi-router does make their use easier.

Also bear in mind that the multi-router is not the only way of doing this. Its just one way of many.

[Frank Hagan]

I assumed that the Multi-Router would be expensive, I was just curious. I agree that there are many and simpler ways to cut mortises, it's just that his heavy use of it causes tool envy!
Frank, I will avoid any porcelain fixtures completely with resin glue should I decide to try some! :D

Its pretty good stuff ... long "open" time, so you have a lot of time to position things and clamp them. Its not "gap filling", so you want the joint to be fairly tight. Some people have used it for veneer, but I don't see how you can do anything of any size without a vacuum press. Its good for outoor use too (it used to be used extensively on boats, but better adhesives have come out that pass a "boil test" ... just in case you decide to sail to boiling water).

Epoxy, on the other hand, is a gap filling adhesive. If you have too tight a joint, or squeeze too much of it out with clamping pressure, you have a weak bond. It is two part, and has varying set up times depending on how hot it is ... and the container you put it in. It is what they call "exothermic", which means without care it can "go off", get very hot, smoke with a foul smell, and melt the plastic cup its in ... which in turn can damage the plastic bumper on your company Ford Taurus if you happen to have set it there (don't ask me how I know that either!)

[Dev Emch]

Dap also manufactures Weldwood Resorcinol Glue.

This is one of my all time favorate wood glues. It comes in two cans... Part A and Part B. One is resin and the other is a very fine powder. It has excellent pot life and working time. It is also a very ridgid glue making it fantastic for bent strip laminations. Thus it has no creep issues.

The glue is water proof as in boat building water proof. It was once used during WW-II to build the wooden bomber used by the RAF called the mostitoe. During its cure time, it is water soluable making clean up a breeze. But once it has cured, it is EXTREMELY water proof. In fact, I used to buy the stuff from a New England boat building supply outfit before I was able to order it locally. It is also used to build the spilt bamboo fly rods. So its proven its water tight ability.

The major drawback is that it leaves a dark red glue line. On walnut and dark woods including mahogony, no worries. On maple, well, lets call it a design statement! You will also notice this red glue line on light colored bamboo fly rods.

I also use it to laminate vertical grade formica onto baltic birch panels. But bear in mind that I also use an industrial strength vacuum bag to do this as the setup time is rather lengthy.

At any rate, I will have to give the Dap plastic resin glue a try. At first, I thought that David Marks was using Resorcinol but could not mention its name due to the ban of resorcinol in the state of CA. But as shown in this forum, that is not the case. So I gotta give this plastic resin stuff a spin.

[sascha gast]

just quick post to say that i own a multi router and wouldn't trade it for the world. it's a great machine, setup and use are just too easy. i am well aware of different ways to cut mortises, but once i played with it at a wood show, i just had to have one. so i sold my leigh FMT and got the MR. been happy ever since. it sure doesn't get the use of a production shop here, but nonetheless i love it. i also use the DAP weldwood and i am very happy with it, also simply because most other plastic resin glues have a fairly short shelf life and i can't buy them locally.

sascha

[Dale Rodabaugh]

Being a novice woodworker,I would much rather watch Norm Abrahms programs.He takes the time to explain what he is doing.David Marks seems to jump from one thing to another.Everybody remarks about how many power tools Norm has.True he does,but at least he picks up a hand plane or a piece of sandpaper once in awhile.I watched a couple of Davids shows,and never seen him pick up a hand tool.For some of you guys who have a ton of woodworking knowledge he might be OK.As for me I will stick with Norm,only problem is he has been replaced with a bunch of teenyboppers who think they are remodlers.HGTV used to have his show every morning,now I can never find the NYW.Just my opinion.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

Being a novice woodworker,I would much rather watch Norm Abrahms programs.He takes the time to explain what he is doing.David Marks seems to jump from one thing to another.Everybody remarks about how many power tools Norm has.True he does,but at least he picks up a hand plane or a piece of sandpaper once in awhile.I watched a couple of Davids shows,and never seen him pick up a hand tool.For some of you guys who have a ton of woodworking knowledge he might be OK.As for me I will stick with Norm,only problem is he has been replaced with a bunch of teenyboppers who think they are remodlers.HGTV used to have his show every morning,now I can never find the NYW.Just my opinion.:mad: :mad: :mad:

I don't see that with David. There is an assumption of viewer knowledge, but I think he does a good job of explaining what's going on well enough to hold the attention of the inexperienced, without boring the experienced folks at the same time. That's a fine line to walk...but of course, I'm seeing it with 'experienced' eyes that get glassy watching Norm.

And I don't think I've ever seen a show where he doesn't pull out a scraper of some sort. Since I'm all for power tools, that counts as a hand tool to me. :D

KC

[Mike Cutler]

A significant portion of this thread is focusing on the Multi Router. If I could I would offer an alternative to the Multi Router.
Dan Barber, a member of SMC made a machine he calls the " Mortise Flex" from salvaged parts, a few years back. He has posted on his website the plans for free to build your own Motise Flex. This is his link. http://woodisourart.com/
Greg. I agree that using a $3000 dollar machine to cut the mortises for floating tenons may be overkill, if that was the only thing it was used for. A center finding baseplate for a router will do the same thing for about a buck or two
I see the advantage of the multi router in speed and accuracy as a single component. As Dev stated, the alignment of the mortises in a floating tenon joint has to be precise. The multi router facilitates this, and allows for adjustment along the way.
I will say that I have never used a Multi Router, but I have used a milling machine to cut wood, and it was an eye opening experience. So much so that I want an RF-30 sized milling machine in the shop, or a Shoptask combination machine.
I wonder what it would take to change the spindle speed on a horizontal mill? :cool:

[Dev Emch]

There has never been a standard milling machine for wood. But i did come across this thing. IT was a special order from Onsrud during the late 1940s and was restored by a machine dealer. Sadly, he sold it before I could get my hands on it. But I did find a builder which does not have the leadscrew ways and table this one has. So my plan is to restore my 244 and build wooden patterns for the replacement table and ways and have them cast in iron at an amish foundary. Then I will machine them in my machine shop. Hopefully, by next summer, my version of this machine will be working.

The spindle is a two speed spindle and runs at 10K and 20K. This solves the problem of milling machines not running fast enough for wood. Secondly, my plan is use SGS Thompson slilding bearings in place of the older dovetail way technology. This will not clog up with sawdust nearly as badly. I lose a hair of accuracy going this route but for wood, this is not an issue.

You have to admit that this is one cool pin router!

[Richard Wolf]

Dev, I know you are not a Grizzly man and I'm sure the mill that you will build will be far superior, but they do make a wood milling machine.
www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?ItemNumber=G9959

[Dev Emch]

Richard...
Yes, I have actually looked at the grizzly woodworking milling machine. There are two issues I have with it.

First, the top speed of the spindle is about 4000 RPM. That is equal to say a bridgeport milling machine with a variable speed 2J head. The 1J heads are belt driven and when they use the 1800 RPM motor are well below the 4000 value; however, some are running at about 6000 RPM because they have the optional 3600 RPM motor.

The other caution area is the way system. Both the grizzley woodworking milling machine and the bridgeport milling machine utilize hydrostatic bearing ways. These are linear bearings made by placing dovetailed sections of metal together which ride on a film of oil. When working correctly, the saddle pushes a thin layer of oil in front of it causing the saddle to hydroplane. This is how metalworking machines have been built since the mid 1800s. Its also why you will find a frosting pattern engraved in these way surfaces... these tiny pockets hold way oil.

You need to be extremely careful when using a milling machine with wood. The trick is to keep the fine dust and chips from absorbing oil and gubering up your way systems. Those guys using knee mills are constantly cleaning off the ways to keep them from getting dirty. Unlike metal chips, saw dust can create all sorts of headaches.

So as you can see, the grizzley woodworking milling machine is no more or no less capable of doing the same work as a bridgeport milling machine. Since there are so many bridgeports and bridgeport clones on the market these days, why not just buy a bridgeport knee mill. Then you can use it for metalworking and woodworking.

As to my project machine, well, well have to see. I bought this woodworking DOWNER off of ebay and boy does it look horrid! I am not even sure it runs and would not be surprised if its dead as a door knob.

The major difference is that my table tilts. But it has no T slots and no X and Y ways and no X and Y leadscrews. So I will need to make up a new knee assembly along with a new table and a set of lead screws. The one in the photo I posted is not able to tilt. I do have some ideas from a vintage brown and sharpe milling machine which will enable my new design to tilt and be able to move in both the X and Y directions.

As I said, this is a major long term pet project. I have even considered installing CNC controls on the X and Y axis. To be honest, this is my hobby. I do high end woodwork for a living... and I do vintage machine restoration and machine shop work as a hobby. So this is more fun for me than necessity.

[John Shuk]

Being a novice woodworker,I would much rather watch Norm Abrahms programs.He takes the time to explain what he is doing.David Marks seems to jump from one thing to another.Everybody remarks about how many power tools Norm has.True he does,but at least he picks up a hand plane or a piece of sandpaper once in awhile.I watched a couple of Davids shows,and never seen him pick up a hand tool.For some of you guys who have a ton of woodworking knowledge he might be OK.As for me I will stick with Norm,only problem is he has been replaced with a bunch of teenyboppers who think they are remodlers.HGTV used to have his show every morning,now I can never find the NYW.Just my opinion.:mad: :mad: :mad:
I used to think his projects were just a little too involved. I think he has tempered that for the show quite a bit. I think he has a great respect for handtools. He even did a show on building a handplane.

[Lee DeRaud]

I used to think his projects were just a little too involved. I think he has tempered that for the show quite a bit.Well, maybe...DM still has a tendency to make a cardboard template to draw a line onto 1/8"MDF to use as a template to make a 1/2"MDF template to...you get the picture.

That said, he and Norm aren't working to anything like the same audience, so some of this stuff he does will be out of reach of what I'd call an "average" woodworker (me, for instance). Still worth watching though.

He certainly has more imagination with regards to design than Norm. I don't think you'll ever hear him say something like, "On today's show, we'll finish up our two-part project to make a Shaker-inspired microwave cart. But before we use any power tools..."

[sascha gast]

............and tack it with a few(million) brads.

[Lee DeRaud]

............and tack it with a few(million) brads."Just until the glue sets."
Whenever he says that I get a mental image of some poor production assistant getting assigned the job of removing those brads:
"Dunno what happened...he was a quiet guy, just sat in the corner with his needlenose pliers. Just snapped one day and stuck Norm to the assembly table with the brad nailer and a quart of Gorilla glue."

[Dale Rodabaugh]

Well thats my opinion and Im sticking with it.I am in this woodworking thing for a little fun and relaxation.Its not something to make a living at for me,it is a hobby.I watch very little TV,but if I am gonna watch a half hour woodworking show I prefer to watch Norm.:cool: :cool: :cool: