Marking gauge cutter material?

[Daniel Rode]

I'm thinking about making a small panel gauge. Around 16" capacity works for my needs and I'm going to probably go with a triangular bean and a wedge to lock it in place. I want a knife style cutter. A wheel shape or a flat cutter would work equally well in my mind. I'd really like a thin cutter with a slot in the middle. I could mount it in the end with a screw and have a bit of depth adjustment.

However I'm open to any ideas on what to use and how to attach a knife cutter to my panel gauge.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Dan

A shallow mortice to prevent any twisting, and a machine screw tapped into the hardwood beam ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Inlay%20tools/inlay2_zps99428667.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Inlay%20tools/inlay3_zpsa08de12c.jpg

The blade is from a Veritas beader blank - ground and sharpened. Try it with a pointed and a rounded end. You will prefer one.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks Derek! The size, shape and slot are perfect for what I had in mind. Just sharpen it up and I'd be ready to go. I always want to order from LV, but the shipping is often more than the items. In this case several times more :(

Maybe I can find something similar elsewhere.

BTW - Your gauge is gorgeous. Anything you'd do different after living with it for a while?

[Paul Kasman]

I think you could use a piece of an old jigsaw blade, or perhaps a section of an old hacksaw blade, or a piece of scraper or crapped out saw plate. I don't think it takes anything all that special.

[Steve Voigt]

Dan,
If you want a slotted cutter, I would get one from Hamilton:

http://www.hamiltontools.com/categories/Replacement-Blade/

Old jointer knives, plane irons, jigsaw blades all make good marking gauge/marking knife cutters, but not if you want a slot.

[Matthew N. Masail]

you could make a slot in a jig saw blade or the like with a cutoff wheel in a dremel tool or even a regular angle grinder if you're careful. I don't know how well it would file, but you can get cheep diamond files which is theory should do it. I also plan on make some like this but I will leave the blade a bit longer for easy honing.

if using a softer steel like a beading blank or a scraper steel, filing a slot would be easy.

[Pat Barry]

Why wouldn't you just pop an Xacto knife blade in there? They come in all sorts of shapes, they have a slot that could be used with a screw.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Daniel

What would I do differently? Keep in mind that this is a cutting gauge not a panel gauge. The head of a panel gauge typically has a rebate to rest and guide it at a distance. This would require more area under the beam. This cutting cutting could do with more area there as well. It works well as there is a wider-than-typical fence for stability, but this might improve it.

The blade can be made out of any scrap steel that you can harden. An open slot is easier to form than a closed slot (a Dremel works for me). I had on hand a bead blank. I would not use an Exacto blade, or similar, since they are double beveled (front and back), and you want to grind a single bevel. If you use an Exacto blade you will need to re-grind it.

One of the reasons for this particular design is that I use fit the LN inlay blades for stringing ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Inlay%20tools/Stringing1_zps9ef2de8a.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

http://www.lionop.com/nt-cutters-and-blades/blades-for-circle-cutter-bc501p.asp

Most fabric or craft stores carry something like these.

[Mike Siemsen]

I use jigsaw blades with the teeth ground off. I make a 1/4" tapered hole and a tapered wedge to hold the cutter. I think it is important to use a cutter that you can sharpen. If you cannot make it you probably can't sharpen it.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'm buying a 10pack of no. 40 scalpel Blades to try out. these are high carbon steel and seem the have a good profile, though there is enough metal to make a rounded edge if one wishes.
I think the thin about 0.4mm blade might be nicer than a jigsaw blade, but we'll see.
http://www.scalpelsandblades.co.uk/blade-detail_98_no-40-sterile-carbon-steel-scalpel-blade-swann-morton-product-no-0240.php

seems to me if I want to make many gauges such as dedicated ones for a given size mortice chisel, it makes sense to have blades that need none or only minimal effort to prepare.

[george wilson]

A hacksaw blade is not very hard steel,but it would be good enough to make a cutter like you desire. It has some temper to it,but is still soft enough that you can file it to shape. A cutter like this is not going to see hard use just scribing lines occasionally.

If you use harder steel,like a jointer knife of HSS,it's going to be a lot more work. Everything will have to be ground,and the HSS is way too thick.

In the old patterns of marking gauge,the cutter was just a flat piece of steel with a little taper to it. It went through a little square hole and was secured by a little wedge. No slot or holes were needed. The taper was to help keep the cutter snugly jammed in the mortise.

You might find Exacto blades or scalpel blades too thin and easy to flex. Plus,as Derek mentioned,beveled on both sides. A hacksaw blade would be better.

I use the Dispoz-a-Blade blades on my jointer. They are made of HSS,and are .040" thick. You could make some nice bench knives from dull ones. I would not discard my used ones. They have too many potential uses, like marking gauge blades,among other things.

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks George. I never realized the used for work hacksaw blades, jointer knives and such.

I was able to pick up a few of the beading blanks the Derek described. I'll need to shape the cutting edge and give it a hone. I haven't started on the gauge yet but at least I have all the materials ready.

[Matthew N. Masail]

A hacksaw blade is not very hard steel,but it would be good enough to make a cutter like you desire. It has some temper to it,but is still soft enough that you can file it to shape. A cutter like this is not going to see hard use just scribing lines occasionally.

If you use harder steel,like a jointer knife of HSS,it's going to be a lot more work. Everything will have to be ground,and the HSS is way too thick.

In the old patterns of marking gauge,the cutter was just a flat piece of steel with a little taper to it. It went through a little square hole and was secured by a little wedge. No slot or holes were needed. The taper was to help keep the cutter snugly jammed in the mortise.

You might find Exacto blades or scalpel blades too thin and easy to flex. Plus,as Derek mentioned,beveled on both sides. A hacksaw blade would be better.

I use the Dispoz-a-Blade blades on my jointer. They are made of HSS,and are .040" thick. You could make some nice bench knives from dull ones. I would not discard my used ones. They have too many potential uses, like marking gauge blades,among other things.

I did a small experiment with a razor blade, it's about half as thick as the scalpel blade at 0.2mm and it cut very cleanly. I has a double bevel, but judging from the line it left I seriously wonder how much it matters when it come to a blade this thin? didn't they used to use round scribe pins? those for sure don't leave a "square edge".


The plan is to make a mortice and use a wedge to hold the blade, with only about 1-2mm of blade protruding. I can always regrind it to a single rounded or spear point bevel if I wanted to. what I'm getting at is that maybe a thin blade held securely can do a fine job? somehow I imagine a thicker jigsaw blade having more cutting resistance.

[george wilson]

Too thin a blade,especially a razor blade,can bend to follow the grain. It will likely snap off too.

[Frank Strazza]

If you have some junk bandsaw blades laying around, take one over to a metal vise and snap off a small piece. Then you can simply file it and sharpen it up. I have made several gauges using these blades and they work great. I like to use an old 1" blade, I get them from a mill that has resaw blades, but any bandsaw blade should work. Just don't try to cut it with a hacksaw because the steel is so hard, it just won't cut very well. As I mentioned just put it in the vise and it will snap off nicely.

[Steve Voigt]

I'd agree with George about the thin blades. For cheap, you really can't beat jigsaw blades. The thickness is ideal, and you can get high-carbon blades for almost nothing.
In my earlier post, I recommended getting a blade from Hamilton tools. Since then, I built the gauge below with one of his blades. It worked beautifully, and my favorite thing is that shipping was A DOLLAR. How bout that? I HIGHLY recommend them.

294935

[Derek Cohen]

If you plan to use jigsaw blades for knives, then get HSS. They tend to be flatter than the HCS and, more importantly, you can grind them without fear of affecting the temper.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Voigt]

I guess it depends on your sharpening preferences. I'd much rather sharpen a high carbon blade.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

You've already got a bunch of good options, but if you just want to have fun making the blade and heat treating it yourself send me a PM with your address and the rough dimensions. I've got
a few feet of 1084 steel which is a great choice: it is about as easy to get right when low tech heat treating (torch, canola oil, oven) and makes a great blade. I'd be happy to send pieces for smaller blades to anyone interested enough in the topic to read this thread until I use up the extra and have to order more. It's not a whole lot but if you want to make a marking knife or small blade send me the rough dimensions. I've got 2" wide in both 3/16 and 1/8 thick, so say a couple feet total cut up to pass around. It's not very expensive because you have to buy 4 feet minimum and pay shipping on a long heavy piece of metal it costs more than you'd want to spend to get a bit just to try it for just a project or two. I've made a number of tools of various types and am still working through the first 3/16 piece I bought a while ago, and have the 1/8 piece arriving Tuesday (that's the thinnest they sell and is closer to what I want for some tools, still has to be filed or ground down for some things like this, but it's nice and annealed).

I've been so inspired by many who answered here and post in this section in general and was so excited when I realized I could make my own blades - this would be a small way to give back. PM if interested.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'd agree with George about the thin blades. For cheap, you really can't beat jigsaw blades. The thickness is ideal, and you can get high-carbon blades for almost nothing.
In my earlier post, I recommended getting a blade from Hamilton tools. Since then, I built the gauge below with one of his blades. It worked beautifully, and my favorite thing is that shipping was A DOLLAR. How bout that? I HIGHLY recommend them.

294935

Great looking gauge, I like that it's not laminated. but at 12$ a pop.... X10 at least not counting making them as gifts.... no thanks, I'd rather grind a jigsaw blade.

[David Barnett]

I've got a few feet of 1084 steel which is a great choice: it is about as easy to get right when low tech heat treating (torch, canola oil, oven) and makes a great blade.

1084 is my favorite tool steel these days. Easiest heat treat and takes an edge like nothing else. I've been buying both 1084 (http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/shop/1084/) and W-2 (http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/shop/w-2/) from Aldo Bruno and am delighted with his quality, prices and service. Nothing else comes as close to the best simple vintage steels. I've been using 1084 for tiny carvers, gravers, knives and other tools and nothing gets as sharp and stays that way so easily. Forges nicely, too, which is how I thin mine.

Your offer is very generous and a credit to the Creek.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

Thank you David. I've received some incredibly generous help that way outweighs this.

Aldo is where I've purchased mine. I meant to add that but got distracted. http://njsteelbaron.com/

I learned about it from the knifemaking forums when looking for more detailed information on heat treating. Great resources for information on such things whether you're trying to make a knife or a tool blade.

I would love to see what you've made, can you pm me with any links? I don't want to hijack any more than I have.

Thanks

[Steve Voigt]

Great looking gauge, I like that it's not laminated. but at 12$ a pop.... X10 at least not counting making them as gifts.... no thanks, I'd rather grind a jigsaw blade.

Thanks Matt…I completely agree. If you are making in bulk, the premade blades get expensive. They're nice for one or two though.
I'll be interested to see what you come up with for fixed mortise gauges. I've been thinking about doing that myself.

[Steve Voigt]

1084 is my favorite tool steel these days. Easiest heat treat and takes an edge like nothing else. I've been buying both 1084 (http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/shop/1084/) and W-2 (http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/shop/w-2/) from Aldo Bruno and am delighted with his quality, prices and service. Nothing else comes as close to the best simple vintage steels.

Vintage steel? Who'd want that? Blech! :D

Seriously though…that's interesting about the 1084. I assume you've tried 1095. How does it compare? Is there much difference?

[David Barnett]

Seriously though…that's interesting about the 1084. I assume you've tried 1095. How does it compare? Is there much difference?

I've used 1095 for years but so much prefer 1084 many of my other steels just sit on the shelf. While 1095 has often been recommended as a beginner's steel, it really requires a more sophisticated HT to get the most from it, the same as O-1. While I'm quite comfortable doing temperature-controlled soaks in my heat-treat furnace, actually a repurposed small electric kiln with an accurate digital pyrometer and other add-ons, 1084 lets me do one-offs and small pieces without the need for that precision or planning—on the fly—almost casually where the heat treat is concerned (http://www.cashenblades.com/steel/1084.html). Beyond that, the grain fineness and downright delightful sharpening feel and result for 1084 would be reason enough to choose it.

Now that I'm just getting back into the shop, I'm spending more time doing smaller, less physically-demanding tasks and projects. Previously, most of my woodworking sharpening was freehand and standing and aggressively quick but until I get more stamina and confidence, I've switched to mosly sitting and have redeployed jigs that I hadn't picked up in years. I'm taking my own sweet time, too, and enjoying it again.

I've always owned a few exceptional vintage irons and chisels that are a pleasure to hone and use—tools with fine-grained steels that hone with a velvety almost buttery feel and take extremely sharp low angle bevels. 1084 comes closer to this feel and performance than another other steels I've used; O-1, 1095, and so on. 1080 and W-2 are nice, too, but 1084 holds an edge better than 1080.

Really, one can make truly fine edge tools with the simplest equipment—a plain plumber's torch or even a hand-held butane micro torch (http://www.harborfreight.com/butane-micro-torch-60645.html), maybe a fire brick, a file or two, a cup of peanut or canola oil, a few other odds and ends, sandpaper, whatever, and you're good to go. To forge tiny knives and gouges you don't even need a proper anvil—a largish ball-pein hammer held in a vise will do just fine and a couple hammers to tap the metal into shape.

Too much fun not to try it and 1084 gives the easiest shot at first-time success. Maybe I'm just getting lazy and spoiled by 1084. Nothing wrong with 1095—nothing at all.

By the way, 1084 is made for stropping. Can keep an edge going with nothing but a strop for hours.

Here's a more in-depth comparison (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/957897-What-is-the-difference-between-1095-and-1084) from a blade forum.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

Another thing I should have made more clear... I'm so totally far from an expert on this it's a joke. This is a case where I'm regurgitating what I've read as truth, only difference is, well, that's the while point. 1084 is great for people like me who are learning as they go because it is forgiving and still nice. The blades I've made take and holds an edge really well compared to a many or mist purchased tool blades I have, which says a lot to me. The main difference in heat treatment from 1095 is the soak time. As I've read and been doing it 1084 just needs to get to the point where it is nonmagnetic, plus "a little more" (see? Forgiving. I think it was 50* F but the numbers don't help without a way to measure and colors? I'm colorblind). Try to keep it there for a minute or two and quench in hot canola oil.
Anneal in oven a few times at temp appropriate to desired hardness.

1095 wants to be held for 10 minutes at high temp, just over nonmagnetic (10 minute soak). As mentioned, that's not that easy with super basic equipment.

Or to simplify it to my level: it actually works when I try.

[Steve Voigt]

I've used 1095 for years but so much prefer 1084 many of my other steels just sit on the shelf. While 1095 has often been recommended as a beginner's steel, it really requires a more sophisticated HT to get the most from it, the same as O-1.

David, thanks for the detailed info and the links. It's funny, I never considered any possibilities other than 1095 and O1, but I will definitely give 1084 a try now. I'm using a charcoal forge, so I can see the advantages of a steel that's easier to use. It's probably ideal for my very low-tech setup. I've made a few things from O-1--forged a travisher blade the other day--and the results are good but not spectacular. I can tell that I'm not getting the absolute most out of it.



I've always owned a few exceptional vintage irons and chisels that are a pleasure to hone and use—tools with fine-grained steels that hone with a velvety almost buttery feel and take extremely sharp low angle bevels.


Me too. The first vintage plane iron I scored--an old "Humphreysville" iron--was a mean-looking, rusty SOB with only about an inch of life left on it. Didn't seem very promising. But the first time I put to the stones, I kind of did a double take. It felt different from other irons--your use of "buttery" and "velvety" is very apt, I think. That iron is a pleasure to sharpen and to use. Maybe the edge doesn't last as long as some other things, probably, but I don't count strokes.

[Steve Voigt]

Hey, one more question for David, Fitz, or whoever: Have you tried quenching the 1084 in brine? I've had reasonably good luck with some vintage steels in brine, and have not cracked anything yet.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

As David suggested works, I have a forge made from two fire bricks hollowed out and use a basic MAPP Pro torch and a 12 lbs sledgehammer head in an end-up log as an anvil.
294988
My biggest issue is workholding (as with woodworking). I've decided to hold off on trying any more forging until I put together the tongs I have water jet cut parts for (cheap, from polarbear forge, but now on ebay you can get new finished tongs for not much either, or wait for a deal on old ones). That's really the one thing I would suggest another novice get their hands on - if forging, make sure you have a solid means of holding it.

I finally bought some honing compound and made a hone a couple weeks back. I was amazed at how sharp my tools can get. I thought hair shaving without much effort was sharp, but this was something all together different, and the fact blades I'd made got so sharp was just so cool.

Of course, my attempts at forging little blades didn't do as well. If by forging you mean banged it with a hammer until it's smooshed. I was having fun and think I kept them in and out of the fire for way too long. They feel very different to (try to) sharpen and just don't take an edge. I'm guessing I burned off a bunch of the carbon. Live and learn.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

Steve, I haven't. I have only touched the surface of all this. Not having to order real quenchant by using canola was a plus. So is not having to kill and render a hog for lard, syphon at fluid out of your neighbor's car, and get whatever else was in the "Goop" quenchant I remember reading about when I first looked into this (in the wrong places, clearly).

So, if you want to try but not order a whole piece yet, do let me know as the offer is sincere.

[David Barnett]

The blades I've made take and holds an edge really well compared to a many or mist purchased tool blades I have, which says a lot to me.

Getting good consistent results says a lot to me, too, and your enthusiasm is understandable. Making tools that are better than many commercial tools, getting exactly what you want and in forms that are likely unavailable otherwise is worth the effort, and surprisingly easy at times.

I've long made my own repoussé punches from W-1 cold-drawn'square' drill rod because it's conveniently shaped and fairly cheap. W-1 does best with a soak (http://buffaloprecision.com/data_sheets/DSW1TSbpp.pdf) in my HT furnace even though I prefer to torch temper differentially for a harder business end and a tougher shank. 1095 HT can be even more finicky. That's fine for batches of things but a pain for just one or two tools at a time. If you can't HT in a furnace, your results with W-1, 1095 and O-1 will be hit and miss. 1084 makes the process almost spontaneous, which I really like.


As I've read and been doing it 1084 just needs to get to the point where it is nonmagnetic, plus "a little more" (see? Forgiving. I think it was 50* F but the numbers don't help without a way to measure and colors?

The Curie Point for simple steels is usually around 1500° F. If you don't use a ceramic magnet, kosher salt melts at 1475° F.

[David Barnett]

Hey, one more question for David, Fitz, or whoever: Have you tried quenching the 1084 in brine? I've had reasonably good luck with some vintage steels in brine, and have not cracked anything yet.

Although the 10xx series steels are shallow hardening and water-quench steels and can be quenched in brine to avoid the vapor jacket, I prefer to quench all small and thin section blades in light oil. Thicker sections in brine works well. Thin and tapered profiles will crack more easily in water, though.

[Don Kingston]

Thanks Derek! The size, shape and slot are perfect for what I had in mind. Just sharpen it up and I'd be ready to go. I always want to order from LV, but the shipping is often more than the items. In this case several times more :(

Maybe I can find something similar elsewhere.

BTW - Your gauge is gorgeous. Anything you'd do different after living with it for a while?


If the shipping is more than what you want to buy, you need to buy MORE. hahaha help expand the growing economy

[Steve Voigt]

Of course, my attempts at forging little blades didn't do as well. If by forging you mean banged it with a hammer until it's smooshed. I was having fun and think I kept them in and out of the fire for way too long. They feel very different to (try to) sharpen and just don't take an edge. I'm guessing I burned off a bunch of the carbon. Live and learn.

Fitz, I am obviously not an expert, but one thing that worked for me is "normalizing." George W. mentioned this to me in another thread, and it really works. If you look at some of the blacksmith sites, they all say to always normalize between forging and hardening. It's easy--you just heat to non-magnetic or a little higher, then air-cool. I like to move the work to the perimeter of my forge for a couple minutes, so it cools slowly, then pull it out and let it air-cool to room temp.

Thanks for the very generous offer of the 1084; I will PM you.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

David, I somehow missed your point about kosher salt. I want to go try it right now but wife would really wonder, as would neighbors. Or not, they're all used to such things by now. Maybe I won't need to order tempilsticks just yet.

[David Barnett]

Tempilsticks are okay but it's hard to get the same heat on the streak as the workpiece, especially with a torch as the flame must be kept away from the streak. Extracting the workpiece to test on a magnet can allow a small workpiece to cool too quickly for an accurate reading, so sometimes a little pile of kosher salt in the microforge can help until you're more comfortable gauging heats. Forging very small workpieces can be a little tricky at first because it's so easy to overheat and cooling under the hammer is quite rapid. With practice, you'll find your way.

[Jim Koepke]

Wow, going from marking gauge cutter material to setting up a forge.

One of my gauges has an 6d nail filed and honed to shape.

Another has an old broken drill bit. One side is ground flat and the back side was shaped on a stone.

jtk

[george wilson]

As I mentioned before,if I heat treat the whole length(2") of a letter stamp made from W1,the stamp invariably cracks open the length of the stamp. So,I just harden and draw about 1/2" of the business end of stamps.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

Wow, going from marking gauge cutter material to setting up a forge.
It's not ADHD, it's woodworking :)

[george wilson]

Let me mention that I tried Tempilac(not the sticks),back in the 70's. The blasted stuff became very corrosive when it reached melting temp,and really deeply etched a well finished flintlock part I was making. I don't know if the stick variety does that. Just sayin'. Watch out.

For your home woodshop doings,I think that just getting the W1 orange hot will likely meet any expectations you might have. Now,with expensive,pyrometer controlled electric furnace(and years of experience) I can do a bit better. But,all the things I've posted here were made with plane irons,chisels,and other tools that were made with simple means.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

Interesting, and wow, that must have taken a chunk out of your mood that day. You'd think they'd avoid exactly that: "Here... You can tell the temperature, but your part is screwed."

I am way too colorblind to rely on colors, I'm afraid. I guess I should really try over time anyhow as it may be that I can perceive fine enough gradients to be useful. Color simply rarely registers as something to attend to. It is there but mostly ignored since it has always been unreliable - talking about subconscious levels

Is the salt an old trick or a new one? Purely curious.

Amazing amount of knowledge and inspiration around here.

[Steve Voigt]

I am way too colorblind to rely on colors, I'm afraid.


Have you tried a magnet? It works for me. I'm not color blind, but what looks like cherry red to me is never non-magnetic. Color is pretty subjective.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

Oh, yeah. I do use a magnet. Color would help as another measure, like when to bother with the magnet (getting better at that regardless) and, for example, with 1084 where they say to get it a shade hotter than nonmagnetic. I've had no problem really when heat treating. Forging is another matter. I end up overheating small things too often.

[Jim-M Campbell]

Please indulge me as I wade into these murky waters if I might......

I am a self-certified unrecognized expert by utilizing three exhaustive google searches and 18 minutes spent looking through two books! :-)

Our club embarked upon making marking knives and marking gauges including making our own blades. We used some stock I picked up at an auction. So..... near as I can tell it is probably some sort of metal.

What I wanted to share was our treating method.

We used a mapp gas torch and an old, long since unusable #4 knock off plane sole.

We heated the plane sole and placed our metal bits on it.

After a few practice pieces, we were pretty reliably able to draw out a beautiful strawish color.

Sure, we violated many conventions and likely upset a few people who actually know what they are doing, but it worked.

This indirect heating method did the trick on some thin stock 1/16" blades.

Fun can be had!

Regards,
Jim

[george wilson]

It is common blacksmith procedure to temper small objects by laying them upon a larger hunk of iron or steel. Watch makers(the few who actually MAKE a watch from scratch) do this too. You can imagine how difficult it might be to get the proper heat treating in a hair thin spring.

When tempering .015" flat spring steel trigger springs,it is best to pre heat a larger plate,and lay the spring upon it.