Setting up the Metric Workshop

[Bob Stroman]

I have decided to set up my workshop with the metric system. It's a 500 sq. ft. workshop (yep, it's going to take some work to think metric). However, it will be a breeze when my designs start to click in millimeters, and I make enough money to start buying european tools. Any suggestions on print or online articles to read on this topic? The European magazines haven't helped, but then FWW doesn't help a metric maker convert to inches and 32nds either.

Bob Stroman

[Nick Mitchell]

Bob, you'll be very pleased you've switched to metric. It's just so much easier not having to deal with fractions. The math is simple and you'll make no mistakes in fractional conversions and all that crud.

If you sell your work- 'build in metric, sell in imperial'

First get a digital caliper that has both metric and imperial measurements. This will ease the transition.

This site http://www.engnetglobal.com/tips/convert.asp?search=L will also be very helpful.

Good luck, welcome to the 21st century (actually the 20th ;) ) and if you have any specific questions just let me know.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bob....I don't know where you're located but ......Good Luck! Here in the US, I'm assuming you're here in the US too, it's difficult at best! I work on large scale medical devices and the company that employs me builds equipments around the world.....China.....Japan.......Taiwan...France .......Spain...A goodly portion of that equipment is designed in these countries and consequently a lot of the mechanical alignment specifications are given in metric ; a lot of the hardware bolts, nuts etc are metric ; a lot of the torque specs are not lb/ft......Getting your hands on metric measuring devices and tools is the worst of it. Working in metric....I find it easier once you get used to it. And for physical dimensions......1/32 of an inch ..25.4mm/inch........not a significant difference..........10 mm/cm....easier to remember..... 116mm is as easy to remember as 4 inches....Good luck!

PS HD sells a metric tape measure.

[Nick Mitchell]

Lee Valley has lots of Metric measuring tools.

There will always be a mixture of both systems. Here in Canada we've been metric for over 30 years but lumber is still sold in board feet, it's still a 2x4, houses are measured in square feet, nobody sells a hectare of land, still an acre, people still weigh themselves in pounds etc etc

But for a wood shop, which is an island unto itself, metric is the way to go.

[Frank Pellow]

I seem to spend about the same amount of time doing construction and woodworking. It is hard to purchase construction material in metric sizes, so most of the construction I do is in imperial. :(

However, most of my woodworking is in metric :) and I find it much easier to work in metric. I am well stocked with metric rulers, gauges, etc and they seem to be easy to find. As far as tools go, my Festool router and saws are in metric and that makes things quite easy. I should add that I am not trying to sell anything that I make; if I did, I expect that some customers would insist upon imperial dimensions.

[John Stevens]

I have decided to set up my workshop with the metric system. [snip] Any suggestions on print or online articles to read on this topic?

See pages 36-37 of this pdf file available online:

http://www.festoolusa.com/Web_files/Getting_the_most_from_the_VS_600_jointing_system.p df

Another gem courtesy of Jerry Work. It's short, but IMO that's just about all you really need to know. Don't worry, as soon as you begin to use metric units exclusively, you'll quickly be able to think and see "in metric." Don't toss your English-unit rules, but definitely put them somewhere that's a pain in the neck to get to. Measure the lengths and widths of your hand, forearm and segments of your fingers in mm, and you'll have something familiar to go by.

[Bob Stroman]

See pages 36-37 of this pdf file available online:

http://www.festoolusa.com/Web_files/Getting_the_most_from_the_VS_600_jointing_system.p df

Another gem courtesy of Jerry Work. ...snip...
Thanks, I'll read that article. Jerry Work's MFT article provided my most recent inspiration to find out more about going metric. The MFT article included building a sliding dovetail furniture piece using metric measurements. This quote from Jerry's article made me realize there was more to it than 25.4mm to the inch.
"In this case the piece is built to what I call a 50mm by 20mm by 10mm standard. That means that all the rails and stiles are 50mm wide by 20mm thick with 10mm wide and deep mortise and tenon joints."

[Jamie Buxton]

There's a different way to go: decimal inches. That is, you see measurements like 17.32". Decimals in inches give you the same benefits as in centimeters. Sticking with inches is more compatible with customers, your own intuition, and the supplied materials.

American machinists have been using decimal inches forever. (That's why we have things like the 22-caliber bullet -- .22 inches!) You can get decimal-inch measuring tools from machinist-supply places. You can get decimal-inch tape measures from Lee Valley (on the web site, not in the current catalog for some reason).

[David Wilson]

It's a 500 sq. ft workshop
Bob
You should have said, "it's a 46.45 sq meters.
Boy am I picky

[Jeff Fritzson]

116mm is as easy to remember as 4 inches....Good luck!


Ken,

Wouldn't that be 101.6mm = 4 inches? Not to be a nit pick but just in case someone is starting off, I would want to make sure the number is correct. Making the switch to metric has proven very difficult for many. I think it is a much easier system personally. However, the tools that are sold here do not aid in the switch. Good luck, Bob.

[Bob Stroman]

...
If you sell your work- 'build in metric, sell in imperial'
...

I'm going to enter the furniture business in the fall. A nice hall table might measure.
28"H x 60"L x 18"D which converts to 711.2mm H x 1524mm L x 457.2mm D

Now to make it easier to build. I might build it with these measurements:
700mm H x 1530mm L x 460mm D

Will the slight size difference concern the fine furniture consumer?

[Nick Mitchell]

Will the slight size difference concern the fine furniture consumer? In my experience, absolutely not. They won't measure anything.

Remember, you're the designer/craftsman...you call the shots. It's the only way to make money building furniture.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jeff....you're absolutely correct......I used to be able to do math in my head that amazed people. Now that I'm aging....the same people claim I'm dumbfounded....not them ....me?

[Lee DeRaud]

I'm going to enter the furniture business in the fall. A nice hall table might measure.
28"H x 60"L x 18"D which converts to 711.2mm H x 1524mm L x 457.2mm D

Now to make it easier to build. I might build it with these measurements:
700mm H x 1530mm L x 460mm D

Will the slight size difference concern the fine furniture consumer?Unless something is being mass-produced, you can measure it in cubits and furlongs for all the difference it makes.

And it's like anything else in woodworking, relative dimensions are always more critical than absolute dimensions.

No law against mixing imperial and metric, either. (Hint: know why Delta's 8" jointer is called the "DJ20"? :D )

[Bart Leetch]

I have to chuckle you are probably right but I can make enough mistakes without trying to change my minds way of remembering measurements. Heck I can forget what I was going to do before I get to the other side of the shop & as you all know my shop is small.

My memory used to be reasonably good but a head injury didn't help it one bit. For a while I literally carried a note pad so I could remember from one side of the room to the other. I also had a lot of anger during that time. I sure am lucky the the LOML loves me as much as she does or we wouldn't have made it through that time.

I did build a 8' melamine computer desk using metric measurement & it came out alright but I wasn't real comfortable with metric measurement.

So I'll keep with my old ways & take lots of notes.

[Bob Stroman]

Unless something is being mass-produced, you can measure it in cubits and furlongs for all the difference it makes.

And it's like anything else in woodworking, relative dimensions are always more critical than absolute dimensions.

No law against mixing imperial and metric, either. (Hint: know why Delta's 8" jointer is called the "DJ20"? http://sawmillcreek.org/images/smilies/biggrin.gif )
http://sawmillcreek.org/images/smilies/mad.gif Are you suggesting that the used DJ20 I bought is only going to go 7-7/8" wide? Now if the Euro/Dollar exchange rate would improve, then I would get closer to a 410mm jointer/planer.

I was never able to figure out how many turns of the planer to take off another 1/16", because the screw was in metric. It's probably 2 turns per millimeter. This is one of the many problems that will go away when I finish my shop and set up the tools with metric scales.

[Michael Perata]

If you are planning on making metric sized cabinets, google "32mm system" for more information than you'll ever need on Euro style modular cabinets.

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.techdirections.com/32mmCabinet.pdf

Here is a good one from Mike's suggested Google search.

[Ian Barley]

Here in the UK my generation straddled the conversion from imperial to metric. So I started junior school on feet and inches and ended on meters and millimeters.

To this day I estimate in feet and measure in metric. So I can visualise a 500 sq ft workshop but 46.45 square meters leaves me pretty blank.

If your gonna go metric you must make all your measurements metric and don't use conversions of imperial units. If you think that something needs to be a foot long because you can imagine a foot thats fine but don't then cut it 304.8 mm. Make it 305mm or 300mm.

Sheet goods can be fun but for most applications 3/4" and 19mm are the same. (I know they are not but if 5/100ths of a milimeter is important to you you need to be working metal not wood).

Good luck - stick with it - once you are used to it it is a much easier system.

[John Renzetti]

hi Bob, I pretty much have switched to metric for woodworking projects. But for general construction I keep working in in/ft. The scales on the crosscut fences and the rip fence have both metric and imperial scales. I design and cut in metric but I like having the in/ft equivilant especially for anthing greater than 1000mm.
I really find it easier to work in metric.
take care,
John

[Keith Outten]

Never in my Shop. Sorry but 30 years of buying American Standard wrenches, tools and measuring instruments makes the transition to the Metric system impossible. Not to mention the old system works well for me so if it ain't broke.....

Whenever I see a gas station that sells liters I just ride on by.

[Frank Pellow]

...
Whenever I see a gas station that sells liters I just ride on by.
In my experience, there are only two countries in the world that sell gasoline in gallons, the UK and USA (and to complicate thngs, the imperial gallon is a different size than the US gallon).

Keith, what do you do when you drive outside those two countries? :D

[Ken Salisbury]

[/I]

Keith, what do you do when you drive outside those two countries? :D

I'm not Keith, but when I drive outside those two countries I do exactly like in the US. I hold the pump handle until the tank will take no more - pay the clerk and drive off into the sunset. :) :D :cool:

p.s. Too old to change now - Old Rebel Workshop = Non-metric

[Greg Mann]

Never in my Shop. Sorry but 30 years of buying American Standard wrenches, tools and measuring instruments makes the transition to the Metric system impossible. Not to mention the old system works well for me so if it ain't broke.....

Whenever I see a gas station that sells liters I just ride on by.

Keith, this is a guess, but I suspect you have never needed to work in metric. Many of us have become somewhat bilingual because of our 'other' professions, be it metalworking, medical, test labs, etc. I think this drives a little more acceptance, not right or wrong, just acceptance, as it is more familiar to us. Personally, I have been vacillating about this for a while. Jerry's mini-treatise on metrication in his MFT manual has probably pulled me over. I like the simplicity, and as far as a customer is concerned, it is 3/4 by 2 inch, not 20mm by 50mm. With metric thimbles on my routers and such I am all set, and I have enough experience with the conversions to go the opposite way converting my inch based MicroFence when needed.

Greg

[Chris Padilla]

While in Europe during Easter last March (picked up my new BMW in Munich, Germany! :D ), of course, all I could buy was liters of petrol (not gasoline). By my calculations and tossing in the $1.30/Euro conversion factor, I was paying around $5.80 per US gallon! :eek:

It cost about $110 to fill up an 18 US gallon tank! :eek: :eek: :eek:

So, I'm with Keith: buying gas in liters is to be passed up--it's too expensive! :p :p :p

:rolleyes:

[Frank Pellow]

...
So, I'm with Keith: buying gas in liters is to be passed up--it's too expensive! :p :p :p
...
It's not necessarily so. :p Last night I purchases gasoline at a place about a kilometre from here for 75.9 cents (Canadian) a litre. That works out to $2.88 (Canadian) a US gallon and at todays exchange rate that is $2.33 (US)a US gallon. On a recent trip to the US I saw gasoline at more than $3.00 a gallon. :D

[Greg Mann]

It's not necessarily so. :p Last night I purchases gasoline at a place about a kilometre from here for 75.9 cents (Canadian) a litre. That works out to $2.88 (Canadian) a US gallon and at todays exchange rate that is $2.33 (US)a US gallon. On a recent trip to the US I saw gasoline at more than $3.00 a gallon. :D

Canadian litres are cheaper than Festool litres, everybody knows that.:D

[Keith Outten]

Frank, I never drive outside of the United States, in fact I rarely leave Virginia. When I was in the US Navy someone else did the driving and the fuel we used was always free :)

Greg, I took drafting classes for three years in junior high school, three years in high school and was a Drafting Design major in college so I was required to learn and use the Metric system. I spent much of my youth hanging around machine shops and I am a Level III ASNT Visual Examiner with decades of machine shop inspection experience. Up untill 10 years ago I was qualified and certified to use just about any precision measuring equipment that was in use and for years I worked both construction and operational nuclear power plants. My point is that I have had plenty of experience with the metric system I just prefer the American Standard system.

I can't say my preference is better, it is just my personal preference. I don't mind fractions at all and the decimal system works great. Considering that the cost of converting the most technologicaly advanced Nation in the world to an alternative system of measurement would be astronomical the only people who would consider making such a change won't be signing the purchase orders for billions of dollars of equipment that needs to be replaced. The confusion that exists when using dual systems can be devastating, NASA lost a Mars mission because an engineer inadvertantly assumed the wrong system of measurement. Millons and millions of US Dollars were lost.

I am a creature of habit and I have learned to accept my personal quirks. I like my routers with 1/2" collets, my metal lathe graduated in thousandths and my wrenches all lined up in the drawer by fractional sizes. My brain is calibrated using the system I grew up with and although I am capable of making the adjustment to a new system I just prefer not to do so.

My Mind Is Made Up, Don't Confuse Me With The Facts :)

For the record every gas station that converted their pumps to the metric system in my local area had to change back to US gallons. It seems the majority of my fellow citizens feel the same as I do. There are no gasoline liters in my neck of the woods :D

[Ian Barley]

In my experience, there are only two countries in the world that sell gasoline in gallons, the UK and USA (and to complicate thngs, the imperial gallon is a different size than the US gallon).

Keith, what do you do when you drive outside those two countries? :D

Frank

Sorry to break it to you - we have sold petrol in liters for many years now - no gallons here any more.

[Lee DeRaud]

Canadian litres are cheaper than Festool litres, everybody knows that.:DEZ now, don't want this thread to get outta hand...

[Steve Rowe]

I should add that I am not trying to sell anything that I make; if I did, I expect that some customers would insist upon imperial dimensions.
Frank - In my shop, for every imperial dimension, there is an equal and opposite metric dimension. I think that is the law of conservation of length. Unless of course you cut it too short and then length is no longer conserved.:D

[Wes Bischel]

I've used both for many years without any real issues. I developed new products for the construction industry in the Americas, Europe, and some work in Asia. One weird area was "soft metric" - imperial sized products dimensioned in metric. This is one of the ways the construction industry got around - er rather, complied with - US government mandates for metric use.
The only real issue I had was remembering to change nomenclature while talking to customers or manufacturing people used to different standards - especially during the same conversation. :rolleyes:

I typically use imperial in the shop - basically because that's what the tools and tooling I have are calibrated to.

Wes

[Andy London]

I was in Jr high when Canada went metric, man that made the next few years tough in school even for the teachers. Everyone hated it and up until a very few years ago people still resented metric.

In construction here everything is still pretty much Imperial, I took a break from the corporate world and built houses one summer, construction was Imperial however I did the finish work in metric.

In the shop now, my son and I measure pretty much everything using cm or mm but I have tought him both and leave it to him to decide. For cabinetry metric is just easier for me.

[Greg Mann]

snipped
Considering that the cost of converting the most technologicaly advanced Nation in the world to an alternative system of measurement would be astronomical the only people who would consider making such a change won't be signing the purchase orders for billions of dollars of equipment that needs to be replaced. snipped :D

My guess about your familiarity with metrics was wrong. It boils down to what you are comfortable with. That's cool.

I think you might be surprised how much equipment, especially CNC, is metric under the surface. Sadly, the US machine tool business has been decimated. That's a long story of its own, but even what is left is mostly built to metric standards to make it globally marketable. Now, most equipment is either European or Asian, and made to metric standards, but just like digital calipers, it can be set up to respond to inch based commands. So I think much of that conversion has already been made. We just haven't let go of the visual interface.

[Frank Pellow]

Frank - In my shop, for every imperial dimension, there is an equal and opposite metric dimension. I think that is the law of conservation of length. Unless of course you cut it too short and then length is no longer conserved.:D
I don't think that measurments such as 3.79 litres, 2.54 centimtres, or 39 3/8 inches are"real". Rather, they are soft conversions of numbers in another system that are more meaningful in that system.

[Chris Padilla]

NIST - The National Institute of Standards and Technology has defined all basic units of measurements...they are as real as they exist at NIST. :)

[Dev Emch]

Bob...
I work in both english and metric in both wood and metal. About the only relavent tip I can give you is that 1 inch equals 25.4 mm.

I have found that when your using pro-level shaper cutters, the europeans have it over the americans. That is why I run 30 mm and 40 mm spindles in my shaper. I do not have a 1.25 inch spindle nor does one exist as an over the counter item for my shaper. Truth is, I have not missed it. The sad fact is that the US industry has frozen all development work on US made shapers in about 1968. From that point onwards, the europeans have taken the ball and made some subtantial improvments. This is esp. true when it comes to using insert technology shaper cutters.

In regard to using DROs or digital read out displays, keep this in mind. Many of them have a button that can switch between english and metric. So once again, its not a problem.

In regard to certain tools like socket sets for example, also bear in mind that these are all sold as 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 or 3/4 inch drive. But you can get either english or metric socket sets. In fact, you can also get english whitworth sizes.

Even many US made machine tools have a similar construction. My metal lathe has an english leadscrew; however, it takes a metric conversion change gear which allows me to thread either in english or metric. Even the dials are set up as both. I can pop the collar back for english or pull the collar forward for metric.

So I dont think there is purely an english shop or purely a metric shop. Your best off living with a combination of both as that is what our system has evolved into. After a while, you become comfortable with our mut system.

[Christopher Stahl]

While in Europe during Easter last March (picked up my new BMW in Munich, Germany! :D ), of course, all I could buy was liters of petrol (not gasoline). By my calculations and tossing in the $1.30/Euro conversion factor, I was paying around $5.80 per US gallon! :eek:

It cost about $110 to fill up an 18 US gallon tank!

So, I'm with Keith: buying gas in liters is to be passed up--it's too expensive! :p :p :p

:rolleyes:

Chris, I picked up both my 2000 and 2002 BMWs in Munich as well, but the petrol prices and conversion rates were much more favorable during those years. :p

I've been working in metric as much as I can and it's so much easier. I just have problems visualizing mm, like 768mm. That's 30.236 inches. Dang it!!! That's my problem, I always try to associate with inches. :confused:

[Dev Emch]

Chris...
Your right about visualizing mm when your thinking in english. Its like speaking german as a second lang. You will reach a point when the only way forward is to leave the english mentality behind. You have to "trick" your brain into thinking that there is no english system. If you find yourself converting in your mind, your not going to become comfortable. You have to leave the conversions behind and just begin feeling the metric. It has to be total emmersion.

In time, I think you will find more and more things going metric. Not because its better but rather that more of the "rest of the world" is using it. And its not going to be an instant conversion. For example, my Dodge truck uses both english and metric bolts in the same front brake/rotor assembly now. So I have become comfortable with both systems. Not an issue with a bit of practice.

[john elliott]

the most technologicaly advanced Nation in the world



I presume you mean the USA? Plenty of discussion possibilities raised by such a statement. Germany and Japan both have strong claims to that title. I realise that we are in danger of getting off topic here, but I couldn't let that statement go unchallenged

John

[Rich Konopka]

In my experience, absolutely not. They won't measure anything.

Remember, you're the designer/craftsman...you call the shots. It's the only way to make money building furniture.


I respectively disagree and I know that measurements are very important to the consumer. You have a 42" TV and want to have a cabinet built for it. The TV is a Sony Wega with speakers on the side and the overall width is 48". You have a room with 2 windows and you would like to put a bookcase between those 2 windows. You have a window and would like to put a small plant table beneath the sill. If you go browse any furniture catalog the measurements are always listed. They are there for a reason.

[Ian Barley]

I presume you mean the USA? Plenty of discussion possibilities raised by such a statement. Germany and Japan both have strong claims to that title. I realise that we are in danger of getting off topic here, but I couldn't let that statement go unchallenged

John
Careful John - remember that they kicked us out once - if you get them annoyed they might come over here and get us!

[Frank Pellow]

Careful John - remember that they kicked us out once - if you get them annoyed they might come over here and get us!
(as someone from the part of North America that did not kick you out :) ) I was thinking the same thing that John said.

[Ian Barley]

(as someone from the part of North America that did not kick you out :) ) I was thinking the same thing that John said.
Frank - I wasn't necessarily disagreeing - just trying to keep the peace with the neighbours ;)

[Bob Stroman]

Okay. I'll try to buy metric only for everything including my design program (which one?). When I can't get metric only, then I'll take a dual scale. English units will be reserved for the customer and my marketing materials.

Of course, I'll respect the consumer's desire to keep their house and belongings intact when my furniture arrives, but they'll have to learn to like the 20mm thickness. "It is made from higher quality 3/4" boards." http://sawmillcreek.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

A few things make it easier for me to go metric now. My workshop has been in storage for the last 2 years due to a house addition so I have the opportunity to change many things as I setup. I hope to acquire some new equipment that is metric my nature. Finally, I do not plan to have employees that might make mistakes, because they are used to inches.

For me, the workshop is about measuring length only, and I find buying high quality, modern woodworking equipment in metric measurements easier.

Oh I'm thirsty, where on earth can you buy a quart of Diet Coke? I guess I'll settle for the 1/2 liter or maybe the 2 liter bottle

Bob Stroman

[Keith Outten]

Careful John - remember that they kicked us out once - if you get them annoyed they might come over here and get us!

John and Ian,

No Worries, we are still close allies and I believe our relationship is better then ever considering recent events. The "Kicked Out" comment I believe is a reference to the Revolutionary War and I expect you understand that we could not be taxed without representation. I believe you have followed suit, the Monarchy doesn't rule your country anymore :)

I stand by my statement concerning the USA being the most technologicaly advanced Nation in the world. There is no other country in our league and we can out-produce anyone anywhere. I think we proved that in the 1940's.

Our medical industry has adopted the metric system but the rest of America is still holding on to our own system of measurement that has served us well. In the last two years I have not seen one craftsmen that had a metric scale and I think the new Student Center I am working on at CNU represents the tail end of a $300 Million dollar construction program. Sheetrock is still 4' by 8' and studs are on 16" centers, etc, etc.

[john elliott]

I stand by my statement concerning the USA being the most technologicaly advanced Nation in the world. There is no other country in our league and we can out-produce anyone anywhere. I think we proved that in the 1940's.



Well, I guess if productive capacity is how you measure technological advancement then perhaps the US is the most advanced technologically. I was thinking more about technological stuff.
I've never been to Germany or to Japan, I expect there must be lots of american made cars on the roads in those countries?
John

[Lee DeRaud]

I was thinking more about technological stuff.You mean small stuff like microprocessors? Or big stuff like nuclear submarines?

[Frank Pellow]

... In the last two years I have not seen one craftsmen that had a metric scale...
I have seem many. For example, Jerry Work certainly is a craftsman and, as we read in his recent documents, he certainly uses metric.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

then I was thinking more about technological stuff.
John
\
John.....do you mean like rockets?.....space shuttles?......men walking on the moon?..........reliable steam catapults on nuclear powered aircraft carriers? Super computers?.........commercial jumbo jets?.......worldwide commercial package carriers like FEDEX?.........the most readily available high tech medical care available?.........The world's largest manufacturer of high tech medical equipment? Maybe you were talking about the oil drilling technology that's been exported for oil production around the world?


While Japan and Germany do make some nice cars......I know I've had a Toyota and currently have a Honda......

I also have a Ford F-350, 1-ton pickup 460 cu.in. 5-speed, manual, 4:10 rear end to pull my 8400 lb. 26' 5th wheel trailer.

So what kind of technology were you talking about....can you be more specific? :confused:

[Ian Barley]

John and Ian,

Our medical industry has adopted the metric system but the rest of America is still holding on to our own system of measurement ......

Sorry Keith - it's actually ours and we stole it off the Romans in the first place - your welcome to borrow it for as long as you want though ;)

[Steve Rowe]

This is all somewhat amusing. The most common argument I hear for using metric is that the math is easier. To debunk that myth, the math is the same for both. The difference is the graduations on the scale and since most imperial scales are in 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc., it is more difficult to do the math in your head. However, if you pick up an engineers scale, it is marked in tenths, hundredths, etc hence, the math is easier to do in your head. If metric scales were marked in 1/2 meters, 1/4 meters, 1/8 meters, etc., the math would be just as complex as they are in the imperial system.

[Chris Padilla]

Steve,

Good observation! Jamie Buxton pointed out way early in this thread that going to decimal inches will get you just as far as converting over to the metric system. Move to divisions of 10 and the math becomes significantly easier...kinda like the metric system! ;)

[Ian Barley]

John.....do you mean like rockets?Chinese - before anybody knew that Amercia existed - Oh and then Germans :D


steam catapults on .... British - The Royal Navy invented the steam catapult in 1952 as a replacement for the much less reliable and more dangerous hydraulic launching systems that existed before that time. :D


nuclear powered aircraft carriers? British and British - Rutherford was the first to transmute elements artificially thereby releasing the power latent in the atomic structure and the first aircraft carrier was HMS Furious in 1917. Of course she was a conversion from a cruiser so maybe we have to look to HMS Hermes which was the first purpose built aircraft carrier. We will however award you the points for putting the two together for the first time with the Enterprise in 1960


super computers ? If we work with the definition that a super computer is a computer that leads the field in computing power it kinda works out British, British and then British.
Babbage designed , but admittedly never built, his analytical engine in 1830. The first computer so necessarily a super computer. It has since been built to his original blueprints and works perfectly. Then the Collosus was the first electronic (valve) computer used to break Enigma codes during WW11. Oh and then J Lyons & co built the first private commercial stored programme computer which was used for the first time in September 1951.


commercial jumbo jets?A great combination again but the Jet engine was - uuumm? - Oh yes British. Frank Whittle - Patented by him in 1930. True we sent it over to you to do some work on when you joined in with our little kerfuffle with Germany but Frank had flown one in a Gloster Meteor in 1941. I know a bit about that one because the airfield that it flew from is pretty much at the bottom of my garden.


worldwide commercial package carriers like FEDEX?Again comparison is interesting here. There was a documented organised postal system in Assyria in about 550BC. Of course it was only worldwide in that it dealt with as much of the world as was known to exist at the time. Of course Chinas mail system has been in continuous operation from at least 220BC to the present day.
Obviously the first system with a uniform national scale of charging and universal coverage was - ooh! - British with the introduction of the self adhesive postage stamp in 1834.

the most readily available high tech medical care available?
I can't argue that one wihout getting political so I won't


The world's largest manufacturer of high tech medical equipment? I'll take your word for it


While Japan and Germany do make some nice cars
But the first automobile powered by an internal combustion engine was built by a Swiss and the first succesful design was indeed German. Nobody really likes to admit that the first vehicle which was powered entirely by its own components was designed and built by a Frenchman. It was steam powered so its a bit tenuous and he was French so we'll discount it.

Ken - I hope you don't mind me having a bit of fun. I actually agree that the US is undoubtedly capable of technological leaps that most other nations are not. Your example of moon landings proves this for my generation more than any other. The purpose of my post is only to show in the words of Isaac Newton (British!) "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants"

[Dev Emch]

Ian...

Just for the record.

1). History crowned Frank Whittle as the inventor the jet engine. Recent historical releases have found that engineers working in Germany actually beat frank Whittle. Also, Whittle's engine was a centrifical compressor design and the first Production Jet fighter, the ME-262, was actually powered by an axial compressor jet engine. The university from which I got my aero engineering degree from actually had one of these. It had been rebuilt and then sawn up so as to illustrate all the cross sectional components while on display. The axial design was the main basis for all modern turbojet and turbofan designs.

2). The chinese did invent the bottle rocket. But when it comes to the liquid fuel rocket, that was the handywork of both the Americans and the Germans. Under the americans, we had Mr. Goddard who was building liquid fuel rockets in his mothers garage using a vintage south bend lathe. Under the germans we had Mr. Warner Von Bruan who later became the father of the Saturn V rocket which was key to the moon landings.

3). We should consider us lucky. Germany was the pinacle of atomic physics when this field was just getting started. Guys like Bohr and Heisenburg were not working the US university circuit when they came up with many of the key items! Germany was also capable of isolating heavy water in north germany long before the Manhatten project. In fact, the dropping of an atomic bomb by the US precluded the detonation of the world's first dirty bomb in the city of San Francisco by somthing like 17 days by the Japanese! They got the nuclear goodies from the germans. And the first sustainable chain reaction was done under the bleacher seats of the university of chicago by Mr. Fermi using a graphite pile. That gives a whole new meaing to the term hot seat.

4). The first real or true computer was built in the US for use in calculating gunery trajectories. It was a harvard prof who actually changed everything by allowing both program and logic memory to be shared. But the US was slow in putting technology to work and one of the first non artillary applications was the computer used in Blechley (sp?) park to decode the multiple rotor encription scheme known as enigma. Here is where things got really wird. There were many major contributions made by both americans and british. Also how about the work of Mr. Shockty (sp?)? The americans came up with the PN junction and the PNP junction. These are transistors. Later, it was the americans who came up with the TTL low level integrated logic device which took us to the moon. Now we have xlinyx programmable logic and unix operating systems.

5). But all this has to be kept on topic for this forum. Remind me again who came up with the table saw and the circular saw blade? Not only was this inventor an american, but the inventor was a religious sister who belonged to the Harvard shakers... Tabitha Babbit. So all the boys need to remind their wives who is to blame when you need to buy that new unisaw!

6). And how about the first portable drill? That one goes to the germans. Ever hear of a company called Fein?

7). Logging has taken a massive toll on our prestine old growth forests. In the old days it was hard to chop down trees that were bigger in diameter than your dining room. Axes and two man saws. But then the mad germans came to the rescue. Mr. Stihl came up with a crazy idea of using a chain with saw teeth on it driven by a gasoline motor. The Chain Saw. Again, that one goes to the germans.

But here are some questions.

Who invented the band saw? This history would be nice to know. Also, where did the mechanical wood jointer as we know it today come from. Who invented the wood jointer? Likewise, who invented the hollow chisel mortiser. We know the germans invented the oscillating chisel mortiser. Look at the records of Maka going back to the first half of the last century.

Food for thought... we all know who invented the atomic bomb but who was reponsible for inventing the machines we take for granted each and every day?

[Tom Jones III]

Actually, " 4). The first real or true computer was ..."

The first computers were women. The US Dept. of War (WWII) employed women to calculate tables of those same trajectories. It was decided that only women had what it takes to sit all day and calculate long tables of numbers with few mistakes. Hence, they were called computers.

[Rich Konopka]

5). But all this has to be kept on topic for this forum. Remind me again who came up with the table saw and the circular saw blade? Not only was this inventor an american, but the inventor was a religious sister who belonged to the Harvard shakers... Tabitha Babbit. So all the boys need to remind their wives who is to blame when you need to buy that new unisaw!

Who invented the band saw? This history would be nice to know. Also, where did the mechanical wood jointer as we know it today come from. Who invented the wood jointer? Likewise, who invented the hollow chisel mortiser. We know the germans invented the oscillating chisel mortiser. Look at the records of Maka going back to the first half of the last century.



As it just happen to be that I had taken a Dacation on Friday and drove up to the beautiful Berkshires, Massachucetts that is. The Hancock Shaker Village is an awesome place in a beautiful area to visit when in New England . I have some pictures which show a sign that the shakers were using a table saw, bandsaw, drills, jointers, scroll saw at some point around 1858. One of the interesting points our guide had indicated that the shakers were pioneers in the use of technology and did invent or improve many tools we still use today.The Shakers were not Neanderthals by any means. Which surprised me a bit.

The one thing I have to thank our British cousins for our the beautiful names we have here in New England. I live in Glastonbury which is next to Cromwell and Wethersfield not far from Windsor.

[Rich Konopka]

In case you cannot make out the sign in front of the Bandsaw.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Inventing something is one thing. Practically applying it and using it in mass quatities is another. I have arguments for each of Ian's barbs :D but I don't want to continue hijacking this thread.

I still embrace the metric system .....I just wish we had a single standard....I'm tired of digging into 2 tool boxes to get the wrench that fits the metic nut next to the non-metric nut on my vehicle or the MR scanner or CT scanner at work!

[Ken Salisbury]

http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/redflag.jpg

We are straying way off the thread topic here. Please - If a thread sparks a new idea in your head -- start a new thread on the subject.



http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/moderator.gif

[Rich Konopka]

We are straying way off the thread topic here. Please - If a thread sparks a new idea in your head -- start a new thread on the subject.



http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/moderator.gif



Okay, I'm guilty as charged. :o Now to get back on thread. Do you think the Shakers used the metric system?:D It sure is easier than figuring out all the fractions and such.

[john elliott]

In an effort to keep on topic here, I'm bound to say that the argument that feet and inches work just as well as metric as long as fractions are replaced by decimals falls down as soon as one remembers that there are 12 inches in a foot.
John

[Lee DeRaud]

In an effort to keep on topic here, I'm bound to say that the argument that feet and inches work just as well as metric as long as fractions are replaced by decimals falls down as soon as one remembers that there are 12 inches in a foot.
JohnI've never built anything much smaller than a house where "feet" even got mentioned on the plans. Then again, I've never had much trouble converting feet to inches either. If you do use feet as a unit, 12 has the advantage of being divisible by 3 and 4, which for some reason seems to come up a lot more often than division by 5 or 10.

One issue I have with metric is that the power-of-ten convenience falls apart just as the dimensions get into "human" scale: the jump from centimeter to meter is way too large. It's like there was no such thing as "feet" and we had to go straight from inches to yards (or fathoms :p ).

(And yes, I know there is the "decimeter", but I've never heard the term used except in discussions about how great metric is.)

[john elliott]

Funny thing about the metric system- centimetres shouldn't really exist. It's supposed to go millimetre. metre, kilometre etc, ie thousands not hundreds. I think centimetres were invented for the convenience of people who like to convert from one system to the other, and it was felt they they could manage 2 and a half centimetres equals one inch. I personally try to stick to the 'thousands' ideal which leads to less confusion eg , if a cabinet component is expressed as 575 then it's understood that it is millimetres. The context tells one what unit is being used as the next step would be 575 metres, well outside the cabinet concept
John

[Dev Emch]

Well the problem is in the use of a standard. I know we were in trouble when car companies began including both MPH numbers and KM/Hr numbers on the same dial of the speedometers. In fact, that is how I always used to convert back and forth between MPH and KM/Hr. But many who use the metric system feel that its base 10 advantage makes things easy. Then why is it that when you look at say Km/Hr you have 1000 meters in a kilometer but you have 60 minutes in an hour and 60 seconds in a minute but then the next tiny increment of time is the milisecond and eventually the nanosecond. Sounds like folks are mixing systems here. Where did all the base 10 go? Nano is 1x10^-9.

Some of my old engineering texts are english. Some are metric. Some were published as both.

My big point here is this. Stop thinking of the metric system in terms of english. This makes life hard. Think of english as english and metric as metric. Then realize that both systems have been mixed together in the united states. We all need a "feel" for how much a km is or how much a gram is or how much a centimeter is just as we do for a mile or an inch or an ounce, etc. Automechanics already know what I mean here. Same with machinists. I am not to happy about either but is what it is and I am spending my effort getting INTERCHANGEABLY comfortable with both.