Beginner Guidance for First Project

[Charles Li]

Title says it all for my experience. I'm handy enough around the house but have never tackled a woodworking project. I'm reading some books but I feel like I'm getting too much information that doesn't pertain to my project. I'm looking to build a musical keyboard stand but make it look decent enough to place in our living room. My daughter wants to start taking piano lessons and I feel like if I can present it in our living space it will help. Something like this but with a table top a little deeper to fit speakers.

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It looks dead simple but I'm sure there are good and bad ways to go about it. Originally I was looking at black melamine but it sounds like it's difficult to cut with all the dust and chipping. I've worked with some wood boards but they've always been bowed. I don't have a jointer and planer to fix all the wood. I pretty much just have a cicular saw, drill, & multitool. I'm just wondering what experienced people would recommend to make this as simple as possible - types of wood, tools, fasteners (screws and glue enough?), paint, lamenite, mdf, etc...? It just needs to be black (painted is fine) to match the keyboard and sturdy (the keyboard is 70lbs). I'm willing to buy tools that will serve me in the future if necessary. Ideally I learn enough to move on to bigger projects. Any ideas or help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Doug Garson]

I suggest you use 3/4" sanded plywood (Baltic birch is the best) and get a Kreg pocket hole jig to make the joints. Melamine is difficult to make clean cuts and doesn't hold screws as well as plywood. Work out the dimensions of all the parts and have the store you buy the plywood at cut them to size, most place including Home Depot and Lowe's will do the first few cuts for free and only charge a few bucks each for the rest. Finish the edges with iron on edge tape. There are lots of videos on You tube showing how to use thru Kreg jig. You should be able to pick one up on Craigslist for under $100 and find lots of uses for it in the future. If you arrange your joints correctly none of the screws should show but you can also buy special plugs to fill the screw holes. Good luck, sounds like a good beginner project.

[Brian Tymchak]

I suggest you use 3/4" sanded plywood (Baltic birch is the best) and get a Kreg pocket hole jig to make the joints. Melamine is difficult to make clean cuts and doesn't hold screws as well as plywood. Work out the dimensions of all the parts and have the store you buy the plywood at cut them to size, most place including Home Depot and Lowe's will do the first few cuts for free and only charge a few bucks each for the rest. Finish the edges with iron on edge tape. There are lots of videos on You tube showing how to use thru Kreg jig. You should be able to pick one up on Craigslist for under $100 and find lots of uses for it in the future. If you arrange your joints correctly none of the screws should show but you can also buy special plugs to fill the screw holes. Good luck, sounds like a good beginner project.

I agree with the choice of plywood and pocket screws. Make sure the plywood is straight though. Cheap imported plywood can warp like crazy. You can pick up a Kreg Mini Jig at Rockler (and many other places) for $20. Prime and paint the stand. However, my local HD will only guarantee the accuracy of their cuts to the nearest 1/8", and I can say that that is about what I got, ( however my needs didn't require that accuracy). It's a little hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like the top of the ends need to fit under the edge of the keyboard. I guess the keyboard itself might help to stabilize the stand? The length of the back stretcher is likely critical to do that properly. You may need better accuracy than you might get at HD, but talk to them first. You might get a very helpful person that will do a good job for you. If you make your own cuts, a framing square and a decent blade in your circular saw might be helpful to get good cuts. Make sure you cut your plywood show-side down since your circ saw is cutting upward. Any splintering will occur on the top side.

[Jim Matthews]

If you cut the stretcher to length, with an extra 2 inches you could make a simple joint in the back.

Cut the stretcher across the back to your desired "Height" in the Z axis.
Lay that over the upright sides and mark a parallel line at the top and bottom of the stretcher.

Cut a notch in each of the uprights, deep enough for the stretcher to slide in.
Glue and screw together. It might be better to have two smaller ones at the
top, as well. That would make a box section and would be stiffer.

I would prime and paint the assembly, rather than laminate a plastic top layer.
If you're ambitious, you could apply solid edge banding.

[Charles Li]

I suggest you use 3/4" sanded plywood (Baltic birch is the best) and get a Kreg pocket hole jig to make the joints. Melamine is difficult to make clean cuts and doesn't hold screws as well as plywood. Work out the dimensions of all the parts and have the store you buy the plywood at cut them to size, most place including Home Depot and Lowe's will do the first few cuts for free and only charge a few bucks each for the rest. Finish the edges with iron on edge tape. There are lots of videos on You tube showing how to use thru Kreg jig. You should be able to pick one up on Craigslist for under $100 and find lots of uses for it in the future. If you arrange your joints correctly none of the screws should show but you can also buy special plugs to fill the screw holes. Good luck, sounds like a good beginner project.

Wow that Kreg Jig looks awesome. While I'd like to learn some joints down the line but something like that is more practical given my time and ability. I've had Lowes and HD cut wood for me before. As Brian Tymachak said not very accurate. I'm sure this has everything to do with the operator but I feel like I can't depend on them. Last time it was 1/4" off. She actually caught it but I didn't need it perfect. This time I'll need to be accurate though. Cross cuts have been an issue of mine but I'll ask about that later.

You mentioned sanded plywood. So as far as prep to paint, it's smooth enough already to prime, paint, & poly straight away? I don't have a sander. I have no clue the time it would take to do by hand.

Thanks as this is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for!

[Charles Li]

I agree with the choice of plywood and pocket screws. Make sure the plywood is straight though. Cheap imported plywood can warp like crazy. You can pick up a Kreg Mini Jig at Rockler (and many other places) for $20. Prime and paint the stand. However, my local HD will only guarantee the accuracy of their cuts to the nearest 1/8", and I can say that that is about what I got, ( however my needs didn't require that accuracy). It's a little hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like the top of the ends need to fit under the edge of the keyboard. I guess the keyboard itself might help to stabilize the stand? The length of the back stretcher is likely critical to do that properly. You may need better accuracy than you might get at HD, but talk to them first. You might get a very helpful person that will do a good job for you. If you make your own cuts, a framing square and a decent blade in your circular saw might be helpful to get good cuts. Make sure you cut your plywood show-side down since your circ saw is cutting upward. Any splintering will occur on the top side.

I'm willing to get the whole Kreg Jig system but is it overkill for me vs the mini? I'm actually modifying the stand in the picture and will put a table top and lay the keyboard on there. I will also make it a bit deeper to put speakers behind the keyboard. However, I do want the look of that stand to be similar and have the table top kind of blend in making it the exact width of my keyboard.

Is there a particular blade you recommend? I did have issues with chipping when I was doing our closet organizers. I have a cheap Skil Saw but I feel like it should be enough for my needs.

[Charles Li]

If you cut the stretcher to length, with an extra 2 inches you could make a simple joint in the back.

Cut the stretcher across the back to your desired "Height" in the Z axis.
Lay that over the upright sides and mark a parallel line at the top and bottom of the stretcher.

Cut a notch in each of the uprights, deep enough for the stretcher to slide in.
Glue and screw together. It might be better to have two smaller ones at the
top, as well. That would make a box section and would be stiffer.

I would prime and paint the assembly, rather than laminate a plastic top layer.
If you're ambitious, you could apply solid edge banding.

I am worried a bit about the stability. It's 70lbs and I have 3 kids under 5 years old running around one of which is a baby crawling. I'll take your suggestion of adding the two stretchers at the top. That plus the table top then strap to the wall should easy my paranoia. Thanks.

[johnny means]

If I had to make this happen with the tools you have, I would ditch the plywood idea right away. Your toolbox and, I'm assuming, your experience aren't going tho yield clean, square consistent cuts. Instead, I would head to the trim aisle of my local Borg and put together a variety of different width 1x stock. With a little imagination this can yield a fairly professional "Craftsman" look.

[Doug Garson]

I agree cut accuracy can be an issue at Lowe's or Home Depot. There are a few ways to handle this. One is how you lay out your cuts so, for example, the pieces that need to be the same width are cut from the same piece If you need two 18" wide by 36" long pieces for the sides start by cutting one 18" wide by 96" long piece then cut that into your two 36" long pieces. Its probably more important that the two sides are the same then that they are exactly 18". You can also have them cut the 36" length a little long and make the 36" cut yourself. Try to go to the store off peak times so the guy making the cuts doesn't have 10 people lined up behind you waiting for cuts. You can also try a store that specializes in wood products rather than a big box store. Up here there is a chain called Windsor Plywood that sell a wider variety of plywood and other woods and typically have better trained and knowledgeable staff, again go at off peak times and let them know what you are building and which dimensions are critical. They can also give good advice on blade and glue selection, I find Freud blades are a good choice, look for a fine trim or plywood blade.
Johnny means idea is also good, you can even use finger jointed primed shelf material rather than dimensional boards.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I was amazed the first time I used a pocket hole jig.... I LOVE mine.

[Jon Wilson]

I am offering up my +1 for the Kreg jig. Traditionalist frown upon using the jig but I have found, especially until you learn some of the
joints that are more in line with what people think of when they think woodworking, it is purely AWESOME!

I would suggest that you go ahead and drop the extra few dollars and get the complete kit, The "K4 Master System."
I didn't when I bought mine and kick myself every time I use my "R3"

Both the clamps in the Master System are incredibly useful.

I will also add, when you are running the screw in,

MAKE SURE YOU CLAMP THE SNOT OUT OF THE 2 BOARDS!

If not the boards will shift, sometimes ever so slightly and other times a 1/4" or more.

[Jim Matthews]

If I had to make this happen with the tools you have, I would ditch the plywood idea right away. Your toolbox and, I'm assuming, your experience aren't going tho yield clean, square consistent cuts. Instead, I would head to the trim aisle of my local Borg and put together a variety of different width 1x stock. With a little imagination this can yield a fairly professional "Craftsman" look.

If you're buying from one of the large stores that has a "panel saw" you can have them cut the
plywood to your desired dimensions. If you pay in advance, they could have it set aside for you.

I would ask the help desk, and see what they could manage for you.

It makes things easier, to have smaller pieces.

[Jim Matthews]

I want to reiterate a point that may have been missed earlier;
this is something well within your ability to manage as a first project.

It's something your kids will use, and they'll be proud that their Dad made it.

Even the exposed plies can be sanded and painted to an acceptable finish.
Just remember to round the edges where little hands will be involved.

If you can't get a sawcut as I've described above, use hardwood edging along the back to make a step to fit the cross pieces.
Plywood lends itself to lamination, and modular assembly.

Glued and screwed together, it should be strong enough.
If you can anchor it to a wall (even with something like velcro) it should be stable.

Forgive the crude drawing, showing only one of the side pieces - I'm not fluent in Sketch.

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[Sam Murdoch]

If I had to make this happen with the tools you have, I would ditch the plywood idea right away. Your toolbox and, I'm assuming, your experience aren't going tho yield clean, square consistent cuts. Instead, I would head to the trim aisle of my local Borg and put together a variety of different width 1x stock. With a little imagination this can yield a fairly professional "Craftsman" look.

Yes! You can use pre cut shelving material that will only need to be cut to length. Work with dimensioned lumber that is available. Allow your design to be flexible in size. Pocket screws are OK, but they have a learning curve too. Everything needs to be clamped very securely as you drive the screws because they want to shift the joints off center as you tighten. A good joint but you need to know.

I would not hesitate to double thick the stretchers and screw directly through the sides of the legs into the ends of the stretchers. The stretchers should be at no less than 8" tall and 1-1/4" thick. Using 3" x # 8 or # 9 decorative washer head screws and a liberal application of glue the lack of joinery can be accommodated. Bronze or brass headed screws can look great exposed with a clear finished product. If you are painting the assembly any screw will be OK but I would still use a washer head - simply paint over.

This is a very simplified way to build this but working with your tool and experience limitations it is still possible to get a decent result without joinery and more evolved wood working. Don't be intimidated by us. Do it and have fun in the doing. There are lots of ways to accomplish this, as some of the other posts suggest. Good luck.

[Andy Pratt]

Charles,

I have read the whole thread and if you came to me as a customer asking advice I would tell you the following. My advice is based primarily on the image you provided of your design but I did read your comments on it also.

- If you are worried about this falling on toddlers you have a major problem. This table is far too narrow for child safety unless you anchor it to another object. There is no way around this fact, this looks like a 12" wide, 30" tall table (with keyboard weight on the top) and no matter how well you build it, it could be easily knocked/pulled over by even a crawling child. You have to either make the table much wider, keep it out of the reach of children, or anchor it to a sturdy object. You have the option to anchor a narrow table to the floor (2-4 points of attachement) in which case my advice is irrelevant if you anchor it adequately, but you need to be able to put screws in your floor to do that.

- Regardless of the table width, the kreg jig recommendations you have been given are adequate for what you are doing, but not great. If you are going to use kreg joinery and want it to last a decade or more, you definitely should have a high and low stretcher, not just one at 1/3 down height. Make two stretchers 5-10" wide at the top and bottom and you will keep it reasonably stable from major racking. Add a diagonal brace or make the two stretchers instead into a full panel of plywood from top to bottom and you will have a truly strong table that isn't harmed by the kreg joinery. In other words, if you overdo your design, kreg joinery works great for a long time, if you make an easily stressed design (like your diagram) kreg joinery will end up wobbling in a year or two.

- Don't bother with plywood for the top and legs if you can buy solid lumber or solid panels of the table top width. Solid lumber holds screws much better than plywood (and way better than mdf or particleboard) which is important if you are relying on kreg screws as your joinery method. Not to mention that you avoid the bad look of edge banding and the subsequent issues that can result from it peeling. If, of example, you want a 12" wide table and plan to anchor it to the floor, you should be able to find decently straight 12" wide hardwood lumber at any local lumber yard. If you want another grade up, pay a millwork shop to make you 12-24" widths of the lumber you need, on the day you have time to put together the project. If they mill the lumber on the same day you buy it it has less time to move on you. After you factor in edging cost I'm sure you are about equal, with a higher quality product in the end.

- You can do this with the tools you have on hand plus the basic kreg jig. The main benefit to the kreg jig master set is production convenience and dust collection (not a big deal on this), you don't need the master set at all if you are doing just one project, you can do all the same stuff with the $30-$40 option and it won't cost you more than 5 minutes vs the master set on a project of this size.

Andy

[Scott Germaise]

Here's my tips and learnings from using Kreg stuff and from my past year or two getting into making stuff out of wood:

* Another thumbs up on the Kreg Jig. I'm a relative beginner, but have made some nice looking living room quality tables with this jig. Perhaps obviously, you have to plan to make sure the pocket holes themselves on on non-visible portions of the project. Alternatively, you can get wood plugs to plug in the pocket holes. When you glue them in, you'll need to use a flush trim saw to cut off the remaining hangover and then sand down. (Make sure you let the glue dry completely before cutting if you do this.) If they're just going to show on the bottom of places, then maybe you don't care and it's not worth the trouble to fill in the holes.

* The Kreg jig really is awesome. I would, however, suggest the following:
- Spend the money for the newer, best one. It looks easier / faster to clamp down on the wood. I love my older model, but this is one place where it could be better. They figured that out and fixed it. Though for me it's not worth upgrading, if buying new that's what I'd do.

- Practice first. Maybe obvious. But take some scrap wood parts and put them together. Make sure you're using the right screws. Kreg has charts for which screws to use, how to set the collar depth. It's trivially easy once you've done it successfully a couple of times. But initial set up can be iffy for anyone the first time with such new stuff. One thing that tripped me up at first is I was adjusting the depth based on measuring from the tip of the bit, not the stop collar. (Stupid? Yes. Did it say to do it the right way in the instructions? Sure. Did I understand what I was doing? Not yet. But I figured it out after puzzling over why a piece of scrap wasn't working; not on my beautiful / more expensive oak.)

- Adjust the tool to the real size of wood, not the alleged nominal size. Some guys have fancy shop gear including planers. The rest of us have to make due with off the rack wood and be careful. The measurements are often off. Unless you're using S4S boards, which are ideally much better. And plywood is usually fairly accurate to it's stated size and width. But you still should check.

- Even after getting the pocket holes right, don't overfill the screws in. I typically used a corded drill to do the holes so as not to run out of battery, but it's a powerful drill. So I'd use my cordless with torque setting for putting in the screws so it'll slip once a screw is in reasonably well. Otherwise, you can go too far and push the screw past the countersink portion within the pocket hole. That is, it should be tight, and have pulled in the board your'e attaching, but you don't want to overdo it. (Again, this is something I tested on scrap first. I intentionally pushed through to failure just to see where the limits were.)

- I've seen folks just use pocket holes alone. Once I've dry fitted stuff, I add glue anyway. Why not? Just the usual care to not get too much squeeze out and to clean up later. The recommendation for that is to wait a few minutes until glue is not 'smeary' but is a bit pliable. Then you can peel it off or take it off easily with a knife, before it hardens and becomes a problem. I'm a bit nuts about this and have a black light in a utility fixture, which helps any glue show up. You want it off of there if you're going to stain, because any leftover glue is going to mess up staining. If you try to clean it up while it's still smeary, it can sink in a bit and then there's no easy way to sand it out. (Some guys say that's bs and if you use a damp rag quickly, it's not a problem. To each his own.) For gluing, I've gotten one of those little roller bottle things. Doing it straight from the glue bottle and with a fingertip seems to leave too much on for me. (And yes, again... I know the pros can get this right by feel. I can't yet.)

* Wood Choice
- I see a lot of folks suggesting plywood. Which is fine. It's strong. Not sure why plain boards aren't just fine as well. I suppose plywood can be stronger. Either way, you can probably get whatever color you want using good quality stain. If you use a high quality board or plywood it should take the stain nicely - assuming you've sanded and prepped properly - and come out really beautiful. If you want it dark / black, that should be quite possible. Then throw some polyurethane silk on top of that and all set.

* Cutting:
- Once I started getting better and proved to wife I was going to stick with doing this stuff, I got a nice table saw. Before that, I'd have large stuff rough cut at the big box store. Then, at home I'd two other Kreg products, square cut and rip cut, to cut further. The rip cut attaches to your circular saw and lets you rip larger boards. It's a little bit of a PITA to attach and detach, but not too bad. And it's pretty accurate if you're careful.

Post pics when your done!

[Andrew Pitonyak]

* Wood Choice
- I see a lot of folks suggesting plywood. Which is fine. It's strong. Not sure why plain boards aren't just fine as well. I suppose plywood can be stronger. Either way, you can probably get whatever color you want using good quality stain. If you use a high quality board or plywood it should take the stain nicely - assuming you've sanded and prepped properly - and come out really beautiful. If you want it dark / black, that should be quite possible. Then throw some polyurethane silk on top of that and all set.

I suppose that they recommend plywood because you need to cut it, but not dimension it. It is also dimensionally pretty stable.

[Scott Germaise]

I suppose that they recommend plywood because you need to cut it, but not dimension it. It is also dimensionally pretty stable.

Good reason. Thanks.

[Floyd Mah]

I don't think that constructing a keyboard instrument stand using plywood and pocket screws would be esthetically pleasing or ultimately satisfying in the long run as a project to be especially proud of creating. Even as a first project, I would think that it would not be something I would care to put in my living room. I still have the pair of bookends that I made in junior high school 54 years ago, but it wasn't particularly beautiful, only functional. I would suggest that you pick up some of the Fine Woodworking design books and look through them for inspiration as to designing your table. Most hobbyist woodworkers probably can't produce results as good as those, but there are many who can. They acquired those abilities by looking at great works and trying to figure out how to do those themselves. In particular, you should get some basic hand tools. For the task of building the type of table you want, get a pair of nice Japanese saws and a plane (I have one like this http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product/157458/Mujingfang-Rosewood-9-Polishing-Plane-w134-Blade.aspx which is incredibly easy to use. Consider a scrub plane if you plan to dimension the wood. Also get some chisels and a set of scrapers. Do some reading on how to make mortise and tenon joints as well as dovetail joints. Practice, practice, practice. Actually, it won't take that long. Get some quality hardwood like mahogany or cherry (don't use pine: it's cheaper and softer, but won't make a good foundation for the table you want). Don't make the first table that you come up with. I find the best design comes out of mulling over the ideas for a while. You might want to start piano practice on the kitchen table for a while. Maybe even go to Ikea for an interim table. I bet if you go the plywood-pocket screw route the Ikea table will look much nicer. My projects tend to take a while to complete, but ultimately I am very happy with what I come up with. If your plan is to use this project to get started in woodworking, build it with hand tools and traditional techniques and research the design. You'll never regret doing that.

Also, I want to add that there is a wealth of experience on this web site and that you float any ideas or problems here for opinions on how to solve them.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

To some extent, I agree with Floyd, but not entirely. The question really becomes, are you able to build this in such a way that the screws are not highly visible from a position where the stand will be viewed. I can't answer that question. I can probably design something where that is the case.

If you use plywood, and, if it is not cut with an appropriate blade, there will be a bunch of tear-out on plywood. I had some hardwood ply cut at a local borg last week and a bunch of damage was done to the plywood by the saw. I expected it and I made plans for it, but, I needed it to be smaller to get it home. I have an appropriate setup to nicely cut plywood after I get it home. You may need a special blade to do this.

If you do use plywood, and if you want to paint this, then you can use some drywall patch stuff along the edge of the plywood to create a smooth surface for painting.

My local Woodcraft will prepare lumber for me so that they will make it flat and square. They charge to do this, but they will do it. If you opt to use regular wood, you may just need to pay someone to do this part for you, or purchase wood that is already flat and ready to be cut and used.

[Charles Li]

Here's my long overdue update. Thanks for all the help so far! I have yet to cut a piece of wood and I'm so much closer already. Given all that's been said I feel like I should clarify my goals.

The most important goal for me is to have something functional. At the end of the day I want a keyboard presented in our living space to make it more accessible (and enticing) to my kids and family. They don't make the stand anymore and my current stand won't be safe enough. Any stock table will be too high. Plus I'm short (tallest in the family at 5'3" heh) so I can finally have a height that's comfortable for me if I make it. Functional also means sturdy and I think I have learned enough from this thread to accomplish that as it was a concern of mine. More about that shortly. If my kids poke at it and take it up or poke at it and find it uninteresting it's still mission accomplished. I want to give them a chance to discover it. Secondly, but less important is making it look acceptable. I realize this forum is full of accomplished woodworkers and acceptable takes on a different meaning but I'm not looking for perfection or someone to think, "wow, I want one!" Realistically, I can't expect that with my inexperience. Ideally, I make something that makes the thing look like a single unit, not a keyboard on a desk. This is why I want to paint it black to match the keyboard. Unfortunately it won't match the rest of my furniture, but I think if I go for a stain the black keyboard will clash and it will come off more like a "keyboard on a table."

Everything else is really a bonus for me. I want to get my feet wet and use this to explore and see what I can do. There are so many projects around the house that are too daunting but I would love to tackle over time. Bookshelf for my son, stand for my TV, coffee table, etc... It will take long (years) but I'm willing to learn and wait. This stand doesn't have to last forever (5 years max maybe) . I'll buy a real piano if the kids get into it. I have a nice 88 weighted key keyboard already and this is a cost effective way to see if it's worth it to buy the real thing. Hopefully that helps explain where I'm coming from.

As for details, the original picture was Yamaha's stand which doesn't look all that stable. The sketch someone added was closer to what I was thinking. However, as someone as suggested, I think I'll make the back completely one piece instead of two stretchers for more stability. And yes, I will be anchoring this to the wall as well. I'll do a narrow stretcher in the front as well like the sketch.

I did end up ordering both the kreg jig and the kreg rip cut. Thanks for all the tips with that. I do feel like they can prove useful in the future for me.

I guess my one question is about attaching the table top. Can I just use the kreg jig every so many inches and be done with it? Or do I also need to address the corners with a wedge or something as well? I plan on plugging the holes, sanding, and painting to cover visible holes. I don't think I'll do a nicer wood or anything on top because I want it completely covered by the keyboard. Ugh, now I'm thinking I should add a shelf behind for speakers and sheet music lol. Gotta think about this though shouldn't change much.

[Charles Li]

Well here's what I came up with in SketchUp. Wow is that a cool program to conceptualize your project! It really helped me work out some details. It's different than my original plan but more functional. I guess it's easy to get carried away in designing but I still think this should still be very doable (at least eventually after fixing whatever mistakes happen). I added a shelf for the speakers. The height will be flush with the top of the keyboard. I'm debating on crafting an adjustable sheet music stand but I think that's beyond me at the moment. Plus the keyboard has one for now anyway. It's going to look more like a table than I want but after seeing it in 3D I realize it would quickly get too complicated. If there are any glaring problems with the design please let me know! I got everything in the mail and hoping to start this weekend.

Front
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Back
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[Jim Matthews]

You can do this.

The top shelf is justa smaller version of the base.
You can make a very strong joint with just screws and Titebond glue connecting the
three sides (Left, Right and Rear) to the table top.

Adding the front stretcher will stiffen things considerably.

The difficulty will be in holding the first two sides together while you drive the screws.

None of us is dexterous enough to hold sheets of plywood this large, and drive screw straight.
You'll need clamps, or help or both.

http://www.twistedknotwoodshop.com/CabinetMaking101.htm

[Charles Li]

You can do this.

The top shelf is justa smaller version of the base.
You can make a very strong joint with just screws and Titebond glue connecting the
three sides (Left, Right and Rear) to the table top.

Adding the front stretcher will stiffen things considerably.

The difficulty will be in holding the first two sides together while you drive the screws.

None of us is dexterous enough to hold sheets of plywood this large, and drive screw straight.
You'll need clamps, or help or both.

http://www.twistedknotwoodshop.com/CabinetMaking101.htm

I'm going to get one of those kreg pocket hole clamps (where on part clamps to the pocket hole itself). Is that not enough? The stand is about 2'x5'x2'. I think I have two clamps that will do the 2' span. Definitely not the 5' span though. What about drilling some pilot holes to get it started straight?

[Charles Li]

And thanks for the link!

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have never used plywood for the top, which means I always had to worry about wood movement, which means that I did not want to use the kreg jig to screw the top down. If you are entirely ply, this may be an OK solution. I can think of a few other things that you can do that might help, however.

You currently have two side pieces that are connected by a back piece. It looks to me like the back piece is sandwiched between the sides, so, if you use the kreg jig, you could do the rear piece with the screws in the back or the front (since you said that you would cover them). I would usually do it in the back if that is not visible so I could choose to not worry about it. This has another advantage in that the screws will not be pointed to the outer edge so they are less likely to poke through.

You have a piece sandwiched between the sides along the top front.

What if you had a couple of pieces that are say four inches wide along the top. You could then drill some holes in those and use that as an extra attachment point when you screw the top to the sides and back.

[Moses Yoder]

You will definitely need at least 23" under the front stretcher for leg room, if any adults will use it, maybe a little less if only children. The top of the keyboard should be about 29" - 30". Our piano is at 29" to the top. In your note about it looks like you are planning on making it 24" tall. If you do not have room to put a front stretcher under the top I would use a steel angle. All of your heights need to be based off the chair that will be used at the table. Sit in the chair at a comfortable height if it is adjustable then measure to the top of the legs.

[Charles Li]

I have never used plywood for the top, which means I always had to worry about wood movement, which means that I did not want to use the kreg jig to screw the top down. If you are entirely ply, this may be an OK solution. I can think of a few other things that you can do that might help, however.

You currently have two side pieces that are connected by a back piece. It looks to me like the back piece is sandwiched between the sides, so, if you use the kreg jig, you could do the rear piece with the screws in the back or the front (since you said that you would cover them). I would usually do it in the back if that is not visible so I could choose to not worry about it. This has another advantage in that the screws will not be pointed to the outer edge so they are less likely to poke through.

You have a piece sandwiched between the sides along the top front.

What if you had a couple of pieces that are say four inches wide along the top. You could then drill some holes in those and use that as an extra attachment point when you screw the top to the sides and back.

I'm using plywood for the top. It will be mostly covered by the keyboard and speakers. Yes, planning on exposing pocket holes in the back. Thinking of doing the dowel trick for ones I have to cover.

I made the top shelf inside of the legs of the table so I can screw the shelf in from the bottom. I wasn't sure how else to do it. I like your idea though as I can put the shelf anywhere. Might have to do that thanks.

Oh, out of curiosity, what joints do you use for a table top to allow for expansion/contraction if not using screws?

[Charles Li]

You will definitely need at least 23" under the front stretcher for leg room, if any adults will use it, maybe a little less if only children. The top of the keyboard should be about 29" - 30". Our piano is at 29" to the top. In your note about it looks like you are planning on making it 24" tall. If you do not have room to put a front stretcher under the top I would use a steel angle. All of your heights need to be based off the chair that will be used at the table. Sit in the chair at a comfortable height if it is adjustable then measure to the top of the legs.

Thanks, I will definitely have to double check that. The standard height of the top of keys appears to be 28" +/- an inch. Again, since I'm short I'm shooting for 26.75" which is perfect for me. My kids aren't going to reach no matter what at this point. I did opt for an adjustable piano bench so both my kids and I can use it without resorting to adding cushions. Not as pleasant looking but super practical and it's easy to adjust. I did not check leg clearance though. No doubt this will be lower than any normal table. Doing the numbers it's 19.75" for clearance. Maybe I should check this out with an average sized adult heh though really, a piano teach is likely the only other person that would sit at it.

Can you embellish on the steel angle? Is this just like a crossbar or something on the bottom side of the table top?

[Charles Li]

Here's my tips and learnings from using Kreg stuff and from my past year or two getting into making stuff out of wood:

* Another thumbs up on the Kreg Jig. I'm a relative beginner, but have made some nice looking living room quality tables with this jig. Perhaps obviously, you have to plan to make sure the pocket holes themselves on on non-visible portions of the project. Alternatively, you can get wood plugs to plug in the pocket holes. When you glue them in, you'll need to use a flush trim saw to cut off the remaining hangover and then sand down. (Make sure you let the glue dry completely before cutting if you do this.) If they're just going to show on the bottom of places, then maybe you don't care and it's not worth the trouble to fill in the holes.

* The Kreg jig really is awesome. I would, however, suggest the following:
- Spend the money for the newer, best one. It looks easier / faster to clamp down on the wood. I love my older model, but this is one place where it could be better. They figured that out and fixed it. Though for me it's not worth upgrading, if buying new that's what I'd do.

- Practice first. Maybe obvious. But take some scrap wood parts and put them together. Make sure you're using the right screws. Kreg has charts for which screws to use, how to set the collar depth. It's trivially easy once you've done it successfully a couple of times. But initial set up can be iffy for anyone the first time with such new stuff. One thing that tripped me up at first is I was adjusting the depth based on measuring from the tip of the bit, not the stop collar. (Stupid? Yes. Did it say to do it the right way in the instructions? Sure. Did I understand what I was doing? Not yet. But I figured it out after puzzling over why a piece of scrap wasn't working; not on my beautiful / more expensive oak.)

- Adjust the tool to the real size of wood, not the alleged nominal size. Some guys have fancy shop gear including planers. The rest of us have to make due with off the rack wood and be careful. The measurements are often off. Unless you're using S4S boards, which are ideally much better. And plywood is usually fairly accurate to it's stated size and width. But you still should check.

- Even after getting the pocket holes right, don't overfill the screws in. I typically used a corded drill to do the holes so as not to run out of battery, but it's a powerful drill. So I'd use my cordless with torque setting for putting in the screws so it'll slip once a screw is in reasonably well. Otherwise, you can go too far and push the screw past the countersink portion within the pocket hole. That is, it should be tight, and have pulled in the board your'e attaching, but you don't want to overdo it. (Again, this is something I tested on scrap first. I intentionally pushed through to failure just to see where the limits were.)

- I've seen folks just use pocket holes alone. Once I've dry fitted stuff, I add glue anyway. Why not? Just the usual care to not get too much squeeze out and to clean up later. The recommendation for that is to wait a few minutes until glue is not 'smeary' but is a bit pliable. Then you can peel it off or take it off easily with a knife, before it hardens and becomes a problem. I'm a bit nuts about this and have a black light in a utility fixture, which helps any glue show up. You want it off of there if you're going to stain, because any leftover glue is going to mess up staining. If you try to clean it up while it's still smeary, it can sink in a bit and then there's no easy way to sand it out. (Some guys say that's bs and if you use a damp rag quickly, it's not a problem. To each his own.) For gluing, I've gotten one of those little roller bottle things. Doing it straight from the glue bottle and with a fingertip seems to leave too much on for me. (And yes, again... I know the pros can get this right by feel. I can't yet.)

* Wood Choice
- I see a lot of folks suggesting plywood. Which is fine. It's strong. Not sure why plain boards aren't just fine as well. I suppose plywood can be stronger. Either way, you can probably get whatever color you want using good quality stain. If you use a high quality board or plywood it should take the stain nicely - assuming you've sanded and prepped properly - and come out really beautiful. If you want it dark / black, that should be quite possible. Then throw some polyurethane silk on top of that and all set.

* Cutting:
- Once I started getting better and proved to wife I was going to stick with doing this stuff, I got a nice table saw. Before that, I'd have large stuff rough cut at the big box store. Then, at home I'd two other Kreg products, square cut and rip cut, to cut further. The rip cut attaches to your circular saw and lets you rip larger boards. It's a little bit of a PITA to attach and detach, but not too bad. And it's pretty accurate if you're careful.

Post pics when your done!

Thanks for the tips. I did opt for the K5, rip cut, & clamp. It's starting to add up so I'm no doubt have to get more projects to make it worth it. I guess that's how I justify my tool purchases. I've had some custom furniture made which is not cheap. Not that I can do the same quality, but should be fun to do and get the same function. I didn't realize some table saw are quite affordable, especially used. Something to think about I guess.

I bought a 2x2 of material to play with tonight as suggested. I'll get a feel for it and hopefully get some rough cut material to start on Sunday. Can test paint poly too.

[steven taggart]

There is a channel on YouTube called "Woodworking for mere mortals". I would recommend you check it out. He uses lots of common tools, and sometimes builds limited tool projects. He covers basics and how to adapt to the tools you have very well. I watch the video he puts out every week, and am no where near a novice woodworker.

[Jim Matthews]

You need to hold two large panels together, at a right angle and attach them with screws.

Either with a pocket hole jig, or through screws - that's a challenge to do alone.
Kreg offers an instructional video on YouTube and it should give you some idea of how to manage.

Keep in mind that you're working with three rather large panels.
It might be easiest to join the two sides with the front stretcher before applying the rear panel
(which is the largest in your drawing).

As mentioned before, if you had some means to clamp the side panels to something on a temporary basis,
so that they can't move while you're joining the other boards up, that would keep things on the square.

Plywood will fracture, if the adjoining panels are moved after you've driven screws.

I would say that at a minimum, you'll need at least one additional clamp, if you're working alone.
See 1:15 of the video for a nifty time saver.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWI6QppYBFE

[Charles Li]

There is a channel on YouTube called "Woodworking for mere mortals". I would recommend you check it out. He uses lots of common tools, and sometimes builds limited tool projects. He covers basics and how to adapt to the tools you have very well. I watch the video he puts out every week, and am no where near a novice woodworker.

Awesome thanks. I will check that out. I stumbled across Jay Bates' YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/Jayscustomcreations) and have been watching that. More entertainment for me as I can't do those projects but fun to watch. My dad was not the DIY kind of guy nor do I know anyone who is into woodworking so just watching someone work helps. He has a great starter tutorial (http://woodworkingwithsketchup.com/) for woodworkers using SketchUp (http://www.sketchup.com) which is how I found him. I never used the program before and got my design made in a few hours (pic further back in the thread) thanks to his videos.

[Doug Garson]

There is a channel on YouTube called "Woodworking for mere mortals". I would recommend you check it out. He uses lots of common tools, and sometimes builds limited tool projects. He covers basics and how to adapt to the tools you have very well. I watch the video he puts out every week, and am no where near a novice woodworker.

Steve Taggart just stole my idea, I was about to suggest the same thing. Here is a link to Steve Ramsey's latest video which has some aspects that are similar to what you are building. (hope the link works) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGe4GCVGV94 check it out.

[Jim Matthews]

Half of my assembly time is figuring how to hold things together while the glue dries,
This Kreg 90 degree thingy is really clever, it uses the holes you have already drilled.
I don't use this method, but it seems well thought out.

[Charles Li]

My mini update. Just wanted to say thanks again for everyone's help. I'm trying to take in all the advice and got nervous of how costly my mistakes would be after buying the wood. So I decided to take on a few projects that allow larger margins of error to practice with the new tools. I must say this Kreg stuff is awesome! It's amazing what you can do with the right tools lol. I framed out a shelf with some pegboard and never got cuts this accurate before. Made some silly mistakes but figuring things out. I might be hooked... :)

[Charles Li]

Well 5 months later I'm finally getting to the project that started my new obsession. I've since bought more tools, watch and read woodworking info constantly, and wish I had more time for this. I get an hour or two every other week but it's better than nothing. I've started the project and already made some mistakes and thought of some upgrades. I plan on documenting the progress (maybe even video) to hopefully help others as I really haven't found similar projects. I guess it's kind of niche, but there are probably a lot of keyboardist out there who would have their gear pull double duty in their family's living space. So here's the update. Another thanks for all the help from people! I'm getting my kids involved in the build which is getting them even more excited to learn piano.

Here's the basic box. I stuck with the pocket holes to make things quick and easy. It was definitely an issue to keep the wood in place as many people noted. Even with the kreg clamp it wasn't dead on perfect. I'm not totally sold on their clamp (at least for pieces this big). Gonna try one of those square brackets next time.

297853

I haven't attached the top yet but here's the general idea of the unit. I'm thinking the plywood will be stable enough if I just screw it to the base. I don't want to glue it for easier transport. If there's a better idea let me know.

297854

To my surprise the keyboard fits exactly as planned! Unfortunately, I never measured the seat and it doesn't slide under the unit. I haven't decided whether to cut out a notch in the stretcher or create a new base for the seat or maybe just push the stretcher back. I'm leaning toward cutting out a notch as the height should work well for my kids. I didn't like the idea of propping them up on cushions to play. This seat is actually adjustable (albeit at its lowest setting) plus I made the height of the keys lower than standard. I do need to make a riser for the pedals which I'm wondering if I could do hinged to make it easy to put up and down.
297855

So because this is a stage piano it doesn't have any speakers. That's why I have the second platform behind the keyboard as I planned on doing small bookshelf type speakers. Then I realized I could just drop in in-wall speakers! So I bought those and a little amp that I'll integrate into the stretcher. Had I thought of this before I could have slimmed down the whole unit and placed the speakers on the side, back, or under the keyboard. I'm not totally disappointed because my other requirement was to make the unit stable so my kids wouldn't knock it down. With this design there's no way it can tip. Also thought of adding a vertical shelf on the inside for sheet music. I guess that's another downside of the adjustable seat.
297856

Finally, my wife didn't approve of painting it black and now I have to contemplate a real finish. It's interesting to learn about but stressful at the same time lol. Way too many options! I haven't settled on anything. About all I know is I want to do solid wood edge banding. At least it's finally coming along!

[Glenn Howard]

Looks good. I'm wondering about enough leg room under the stand though, especially if you're going to be using any sustain pedals with the keyboard. The player's leg will need room to raise up and down to use the pedal. You also may want to rethink those speakers. Those are home theater speakers, which are different animals than what would typically be used with a keyboard. You may want to check out the pro-audio section of a Guitar Center or Sam Ash if you have either of those near you. Either place would sell active speaker units (speakers with built in amplification). They essentially look just like bookshelf stereo speakers, but are usually referred to as studio monitors and are engineered to sound better with gear like your stage piano/keyboard. The wall mounted home theater speakers would technically work, but would probably sound really crappy compared to running through proper studio monitors (which you could probably get for around the same $).

Just something to think about before the final installation.

[John M Wilson]

Regarding the "notch" for the seat clearance: IMO, I think this will take away from your simple but elegant look and push it into the "afterthought" category, and look tacky.

How about cutting a gentle arch across the front of your stretcher, proportioned to allow clearance for the seat? The stretcher will still be plenty strong enough, and I think it will look intentional.

[Charles Li]

Looks good. I'm wondering about enough leg room under the stand though, especially if you're going to be using any sustain pedals with the keyboard. The player's leg will need room to raise up and down to use the pedal. You also may want to rethink those speakers. Those are home theater speakers, which are different animals than what would typically be used with a keyboard. You may want to check out the pro-audio section of a Guitar Center or Sam Ash if you have either of those near you. Either place would sell active speaker units (speakers with built in amplification). They essentially look just like bookshelf stereo speakers, but are usually referred to as studio monitors and are engineered to sound better with gear like your stage piano/keyboard. The wall mounted home theater speakers would technically work, but would probably sound really crappy compared to running through proper studio monitors (which you could probably get for around the same $).

Just something to think about before the final installation.

The lack of leg room definitely makes it difficult for an average height person to play. Even borderline for me (5'3"). I'm not sure how I goofed that but considering this is for the kids I can live with it. The height brings it more to their level and I love that it makes it more approachable to them. Like the whole marketing things to kids by making the products eye level. But if someone else wants to play - yah they'll be uncomfortable :(.

My original plan was to use powered monitors. I normal have the keyboard hooked up to my active Event 20/20's monitors and it's the best stereo sound in the house. However, I've been blown away by affordable in wall speakers lately. My budget was $100 and been underwhelmed by studio monitors for that price. I went with these monoprice speakers (http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=108&cp_id=10837&cs_id=1083703&p_id=4101&seq=1&format=2) and this tiny amp (http://www.amazon.com/Lepai-LP-2020A-Tripath-Class-T-Amplifier/dp/B0049P6OTI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1412541888&sr=8-1&keywords=lepai). So far tested the amp on my floor standing speakers and was very impressed. Amp has great dynamic range which I think is the biggest draw back when trying to use that kind of gear as an amp. I also feel like this will streamline the over all look which my wife will appreciate. Paintable grills so a lot of color options too. Lastly, I don't have to contend with securing heavy speakers with wires and such from my kids. I agree I'm rolling the dice a bit but I think it will work out in the end.

I definitely appreciate the feedback though!

[Charles Li]

Regarding the "notch" for the seat clearance: IMO, I think this will take away from your simple but elegant look and push it into the "afterthought" category, and look tacky.

How about cutting a gentle arch across the front of your stretcher, proportioned to allow clearance for the seat? The stretcher will still be plenty strong enough, and I think it will look intentional.

Thanks, I've been thinking of an arch. My only worry is how good of an arch can I actually make heh. I suppose at worst I can detach it and make a new one. My father-in-law handed me down a jigsaw but I have yet to use it (or use a jigsaw ever lol). Something has to be done though to address that and the legroom. I think I can get away with tracing an arched board and go from there.

[Charles Li]

Well, got a little more done over the weekend. I was able to cut out and pop the speakers in for testing. The speakers and amp themselves work as good as expected. I haven't even sealed the enclosure yet and there's plenty of presence. Unfortunately, I didn't take into account the off axis factor. The speakers are aimed directly at the ceiling and the angle is too sharp when you're sitting down to get the most out of the speakers. The sound is still acceptable but a little disappointing. I could angle the speakers but not sure if it's worth it. I still like the function over bookshelf speakers so not regretting the decision. If sound quality is paramount, studio monitors (even at the same price range), is still the way to go.

I cut out the arch as well to fit the seat under. Works and looks good for the seat, however the leg room is worse than I thought after getting some jam time on the keyboard. The biggest issue is the height of the keys before it even reaches the table top. I never realized because I've always used an x stand. My synth is 2 inches where this is 4.5 inches ugh. Now I'm thinking of cutting out the table top under it. I don't know how strange that's going to look but it will be covered by the keyboard itself. Maybe I'll add a stretcher the the middle since I'd lose the front one...