Buffed wax finish on tabletop streaking in use, other options?

[Andy Pratt]

I recently applied liberon black bison wax to a completed tabletop, waited an hour and buffed it out with a lambswool pad at roughly 600 rpm (max speed on my rotex 150). The wax looks perfect after buffing but, when the table is used, streaks/smudges easily when an item is moved across it. The more force you use (say pressing and pulling the pad of your finger across it) the more of a streak you can generate. Once generated, the streak can only be removed with extremely aggressive hand buffing with a smooth cloth or power buffing with the lambswool pad.

The table has a waterbased film finish on it (fully cured before wax was applied) and is semi-gloss with micro-depressions in the finish remaining over the grain. In other words, it is not a rubbed-out, perfectly flat finish.

I have not experienced this same issue on other tables I have used the wax on, but it is possible that they just went unnoticed. I can easily remove the wax, but need to replace it with something of similar sheen if I do.

My questions:
- I know what the directions on the can say, but am I applying the wax correctly based on people's experience with the product?
- Are the smudges normal even with a correct application?
- Is there another brand/type of wax/polish that will not leave this type of smudging and will provide similar sheen to a buffed wax?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Andy

[Art Mann]

I have finished quite a number of keepsake and jewelry boxes with plain old Johnson's Paste Wax over fully cured Watco Danish Oil. Although the finish isn't really durable under continuous use, it leaves a beautiful mellow sheen and a super silky feel. I haven't noticed any tendency to streak or fingerprint. I hand buffed rather than using power but I doubt if that made any difference. If the finish on the pieces gets dull, I just restore it with a very light application of Johnson's followed by hand buffing.

[Michael Mahan]

Renaissance Wax is supposed to be the hardest wax you can use .
this the best price I found when buying the stuff shipped fast as well

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012S1XBO/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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[Howard Acheson]

>>>> waited an hour and buffed it out with a lambswool pad

Do the directions really say to wait an hour? Most waxes want to be buffed with 5-15 minutes. Waiting too long causes the wax to build up to a thick film. It's the thickness of the film that allows dishes to scrape off some of the wax when you move dishes on the surface. It's best to avoid waxing a dining table.

That said, it's best not to use a wax on table tops that might get hot or cold cups, glasses or plates on them The wax is what causes whitish circular marks on the table surface when hot or cold items are put on the table. It also best to use placemats, coasters or trivets to protect the surface.

[John TenEyck]

Wax offers no benefit in protection over a film finish, just problems like you described. If you used it to adjust the sheen there are other ways to go that w/o subsequent problems. You should be able to rub out/polish your finish to any sheen desired. Or you could apply another coat of finish with whatever sheen you desire.

John

[Art Mann]

John,

I am not much of a finishing expert and I agree that wax doesn't provide any real durability, but I have to take issue with you on the other points. Wax - at least Johnson's Paste Wax - provides a surface appearance that is not easy to reproduce with any hard finish and it provides a silky smooth feel that is impossible to reproduce in any other way. I agree its not appropriate for daily use furniture, but it provides a certain set of sensory qualities that appeal to people looking for a nice keepsake or jewelry box, or perhaps a decorator clock or something like that.

[John TenEyck]

Art, I completely agree on one point. The feel of a piece finished with an oil finish, or no finish at all, that has been waxed is like no other. Smooth and silky. I have finished several pieces with Watco type oils followed by wax and they look and feel amazing. They also are not subject to finger prints, streaking, etc. - problems the OP is having. The difference lies in the finish underneath. When you put wax over an oil finish, it's mostly in the wood, but when you put it over a film finish it's all on the surface and that's when problems happen. You never really get the same feel as with the oil/wax finish either.

But I don't agree that wax imparts a look that you can't get any other way. Perhaps you use it to give a higher sheen over an oil finish. OK, you got me there. But if you're talking about film finishes I don't believe wax does anything for the sheen that you can't get by rubbing out/polishing. It may be easier to do with wax, but it's not permanent. Some wax products even harm the finishes they are intended to protect. And if you've ever had to refinish a piece that some housewife lovingly applied Pledge to every week you would curse the use of wax over any film finish.

In the end, there's no benefit of wax over a film finish so why set yourself up for problems? The only time I use it with a film finish is when I want to add some color in corners and moldings using colored wax. But over oil finishes? Beautiful.

John

[Art Mann]

Alright, I can buy that. I just stumbled onto the combination of Watco and paste wax. I used the Watco alone on a walnut keepsake box. It brough out the grain of the wood quite nicely but I was unsatisfied with the lustre. I had a can of Johnson's sitting there that I use on my cast iron. I had heard about people in years gone by using it as a wood finish and decided to give it a try. It came out so well that I have been using it ever since for similar applications. I just can't get that same look and feel with any kind of hard finish and for this type of application, that matters more than durability. I will say this. If the finish gets marred or shop warn like the OP describes, it is just trivial to restore it with an old t-shirt and a tiny swipe of Johnson's.

[Andy Pratt]

I'll try to respond to the major points made.

- On the drying time: I have tried different drying times with this wax and have found that:
a) waiting only 2-5 minutes is easier to hand-buff, but it seems like very little wax remains on the surface
b) waiting 10-15 minutes is my most normal procedure and seems to be the right amount of time, as long as you have a power buffer available
c) waiting an hour did not seem to offer any advantage over just waiting 10-15 minutes, but I tried it in this case as an experiment

- I disagree that wax does not offer advantages over a film finish. Wax assists in causing water to bead, helps prevent micro-abrasion of the surface (which eventually leads to wear through of the film finish) and is an owner-renewable "first line of defense" for the more difficult to repair film finish underneath. Additionally, the annual application of wax gives the customer a tool to help keep their product looking new, offers at least a small level of protection over the inevitable scratches/dings that penetrate the film finish over time, and, if an appropriately colored wax is used, can give them a way to easily reduce the notice-ability of many types of damage. Add to that that if refinishing is necessary, the wax can be wiped right off with mineral spirits and, if done thoroughly, will leave no residue to conflict with future finishes. Wax is a great tool in any furniture owner's kit bag, and I see more advantages than disadvantages to applying it over a film finish on a table top.

- I agree that wax buffing should not be the primary means to achieve a desired level of sheen. In this case it was a simple way to add a small amount of sheen, but if doing everything again I would increase the sheen level of the finish to be slightly higher so as to not need the wax. Removing the wax and adding a few higher-gloss topcoats is certainly on the list of correct ways to address the underlying issue here, but I am hoping that there is another wax that would let me avoid doing that, but without the smudge effect.

- I spoke with a rep from a company that produces a table-top wax today and, after discussing it at length, he suggested that I apply the wax with 0000 steel wool and a bit of pressure, and that (as opposed to wiping on with a rag as i was doing) that will help it to take better to the finish and will reduce or eliminate the streaking I am experiencing. I'll try that out and report back.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on the issue.

[Tom McMahon]

Andy, I have used many brands of wax over the years, I wax almost every piece that leaves the shop, in my experience there are soft and hard waxes it seems to relate to the percentage of carnauba in the product. Black bison I believe is one of the softer waxes, for a table top I would use one of the harder waxes. One that I have used and seems to work and is easy to find is the Minwax finishing wax.
Below is my standard reply to the anti wax threads.

Waxing a surface creates a feel and luster that cannot be produced in any other way.
Properly applied it creates no problems over any finish. Most waxes can be thinned with mineral spirits. By making the surface more slippery it makes the surface more resistant to scratches. Wax is one of the most naturally water resistant materials. One coat of wax adds less protection than five coats of finish but it does add protection, however the look and feel has no comparison. When you wax carving or molding on a piece of furniture the wax deadens the low areas and shines the high areas making it look more three dimensional and richer. Nothing looks more amateurish than carving and molding that has shiny low areas, it looks like plastic.

[Steve Schoene]

The Liberon Black Bison instructions call for waiting only 20 minutes before buffing. It does pay to read.

[Andy Pratt]

Steve, that is not what the instructions say on the can. They say to "allow to dry for a MINIMUM of 20 minutes - longer if possible." With most finishes I think it is important to start off where the manufacturer recommends and adapt to your specific needs and environment based on tests and experience from there. In this case I started roughly where the manufacturer recommended, and tried more and less time drying to see if there were any differences. If we could just follow can instructions and get perfect results, there wouldn't be a finishing forum here on sawmill creek.

Tom, thanks for the input. Yesterday I ordered a wax that claims to be on the harder side, and is marketed as a table-top wax, so I'll give that a try and see if that helps for the better. The representative's comments were roughly in line with yours, that a harder wax will be more smudge resistant than a softer wax. I agree with your sentiments on wax use/benefits completely.

[Steve Schoene]

Interesting. That's not what the technical data sheet says on line.

[Willem Martins]

John,

I am not much of a finishing expert and I agree that wax doesn't provide any real durability, but I have to take issue with you on the other points. Wax - at least Johnson's Paste Wax - provides a surface appearance that is not easy to reproduce with any hard finish and it provides a silky smooth feel that is impossible to reproduce in any other way. I agree its not appropriate for daily use furniture, but it provides a certain set of sensory qualities that appeal to people looking for a nice keepsake or jewelry box, or perhaps a decorator clock or something like that.

I agree with the previous poster, that wax offers no advantage, other than increased maintenance. I believe the finish obtained with rubbing out lightly using the correct selected 3M automotive compounds gives the same feel or sensory qualities, if not better than wax, leaving no added maintenance requirements. This goes for both solvent or water based finishes.

[Art Mann]

What maintenance? I built a very special series of mantle clocks to commemorate the death of my beloved father-in-law. Each of his grandchildren got one. They all still look just like they did when finished with Watco Danish Oil and Johnson's Paste Wax 7 years ago and the most maintenance any of them have ever had is wiping with an old cotton t-shirt. Are you saying car polish is immune to dust? If you are talking about hard daily use items like table tops then I doubt whether any kind of wax, natural or synthetic, is going to reduce maintenance to a nicely varnished surface.

[glenn bradley]

Steve, that is not what the instructions say on the can. They say to "allow to dry for a MINIMUM of 20 minutes - longer if possible."

I'm not arguing, I'm just supplying information . . . From their site:

Application -
Apply Black Bison Fine Paste Wax sparingly with a cloth on a delicate / French polished surface or with Ultra Fine steel wool (Liberon grade 0000) when a deeper penetration is required.
Allow to dry for 20 minutes, or until touch dry, and then buff with a clean cotton cloth or furniture brush.
Repeat the operation on new or very dry wood as it may require two or more coats.
For a better finish, buff with the Liberon Furniture Brush once the last coat has dried.

[Andy Pratt]

That is not what the instructions say on the can, I do have one sitting in front of me (2013 purchase) and I did quote it exactly, so let's please move on. I appreciate seeing the info from their web instructions and realize that it is slightly different from the can instructions. That being said, if you have read my previous posts you will realize that I actually tried less, more and equal time (vs. either set of the instructions) for the wax to dry, on three separate occasions, with similar resulting issues, so the discussion over the instructions on wait time is irrelevant at this point. I am not blaming the product (I really like it and use it a lot actually), I am simply looking for advice/input on my application/methodology.

The purpose of this thread was to find out if anyone had thoughts as to why I was experiencing smudges/streaks in the wax in this specific application, whether or not another brand of wax would eliminate/reduce this, and if I could improve my application method to mitigate or eliminate smudges/streaks.

I appreciate all of the genuine attempts to help and have gained useful information as a result of them. I don't want this to turn into a wax vs no-wax debate, I use wax and will continue to do so because I believe it is the best way for anyone to protect their expensive-to-repair table top clear coats. If you disagree please make a separate thread, it doesn't help me or anyone else who will read this in the future if this thread turns into a debate on whether or not to wax the top of a table finish, that is a different topic that different people will have interest in.

I have ordered another wax to try out, and I will update my results here when I use it.

[Willem Martins]

What maintenance? I built a very special series of mantle clocks to commemorate the death of my beloved father-in-law. Each of his grandchildren got one. They all still look just like they did when finished with Watco Danish Oil and Johnson's Paste Wax 7 years ago and the most maintenance any of them have ever had is wiping with an old cotton t-shirt. Are you saying car polish is immune to dust? If you are talking about hard daily use items like table tops then I doubt whether any kind of wax, natural or synthetic, is going to reduce maintenance to a nicely varnished surface.

I also have a granfather clock with mineral oil and paste wax, my father built, going on 50 years no maintenance. On a side table though, a momentary drop of water, or a cold glass causes immediate damage. I do not use car wax, the 3M compounds have no residual wax once buffed, it just leaves a texture and feel dependent on the type of finish and the specific compound selected. There are a few, they work real fast, requiring only a light rub, or more intensive if there were defects in the finish. Look on the 3M website. They are expensive, however, I have five bottles purchased 10 years ago, used on many pieces and they still have a long time to go.