Are your layout lines showing?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I see a lot of high-end work where the layout lines show on all the dovetails. To me it looks bad. It is like an artist leaving pencil lines on an oil painting. Am I alone? Am I too critical? I see this often in FWW and other publications on amazing pieces, so I have to ask.

[James Tibbetts]

I have to admit it has always bugged me too.

[Lonnie Gallaher]

3 for no lines.

[glenn bradley]

4 for no lines. This may be part of what contributes to my infrequent use of dovetails for show. I do use them structurally.

[Derek Cohen]

I plane out the lines if I can (the lines can detract from the finished piece). Sometimes they are too deep and they stay.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Often I try to plane them off. Sometimes using pencil makes that easier.

For boxes to use around the shop it doesn't matter if they show. If they are hidden on a drawer they are often left.

Sometimes though if the layout lines are uniform they can look okay. When some are deep and others are weak then it causes an unbalanced look.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

Those that advocate leaving layout lines (and extra long sawcuts on dovetails) visible cite instances of the same on antiques of high reputation and provenance. In Japan, it is considered careless, a sure sign a worker does not have control of his tools. I was wacked upside the head more than once for making layout lines with knife and marking gage longer than absolutely necessary, even in hidden mortises in joinery. So I agree, they look bad. Both on the finished product and the workman's reputation.

Stan

[Robert G Brown]

The lines bother me too. On my last box, my first corner was bad. So I put masking tape on the boards for the other three corners before before marking them. They came out all right. Minimal planing was needed if any. I will try this again on my next dovetails.

[Kees Heiden]

Personally I don't mind the layout lines. As much as anything they indicate hand work. It is a cultural thing if you despise them or not.

[Casey Gooding]

I really don't have an opinion one way or the other. Usually mine are gone once I plane everything flush. I would be fine if they were still there, too. As long as they are consistent within a complete piece.

[Warren Mickley]

I leave the layout lines on purpose. I think it looks a little neater, especially on figured wood. It is a bit of the same effect that a line stringing border gives, a little needed refinement to balance wildness in the grain.

When I see dovetails without the lines, I get the idea that the guy spent an inordinate amount of time cleaning up. How bad were they?

[Derek Cohen]

Personally I don't mind the layout lines. As much as anything they indicate hand work. It is a cultural thing if you despise them or not.

You know Kees, Ihave read this many times written by others, and I don't get it (this is not a knock on you, just a comment in line with the thread).

First of all, most (99%) of my non-woodworking friends cannot recognise a dovetail, never mind a hand-cut from a machine-cut version. They do not open drawers to see the joinery. Only woodworkers do.

Secondly, none of them are interested in whether something is hand built or machine made. They are only interested in what it looks like and the finish. Sanded or planed is all the same to them - they have no idea how furniture is made. For all they know it comes from the store, designed and built by elves (unless it is made by myself, i which case they are politely complimentary, and I change the subject).

Thirdly, if my wife and I are the only ones to know and appreciate the fact that the joinery is hand made, I do not need lines to remind me of this fact - somewhere there is my red blood as a reminder! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

I don't care what others think. I care about it myself. All antiques in my house have visible layout lines. Not just drawers, also boxes and carcasses, sometimes obvious, often almost invisable. I like that, it is a connection to the maker who was a human, not a machine. If you would teach your non woodworking friends they might start to apreciate this too.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I leave the layout lines on purpose. I think it looks a little neater, especially on figured wood. It is a bit of the same effect that a line stringing border gives, a little needed refinement to balance wildness in the grain.

When I see dovetails without the lines, I get the idea that the guy spent an inordinate amount of time cleaning up. How bad were they?

I had often wondered if this was the case- that some folks like the line and intentionally leave it or even mark it heavy-handed. I hope nobody thinks I am knocking their work. The ones I have seen are by masters, but still to me it looks like they forgot to plane them out, and it detracts from the joinery. It makes the dovetails look like separate glued-on pieces in some cases rather than a part of a single piece of wood. (My opinion, which isn't worth much!) I was reluctant to ask but glad to know I am not alone.

Perfectionism is my greatest flaw.

[David Weaver]

I don't have a real preference, but I usually mark mine shallow enough to plane them out pretty easily. On antique furniture, I don't care if they're there or not, I usually just open a drawer to make sure the original drawers or at least a reasonable approximation of the originals is still in the piece, and care more about the proportions (are the tails and pins tasteful - not perfectly done necessarily, but tasteful proportions - and are the sides thin enough to be attractive - I despise tiny pins on drawers with very thick size - which is fortunately something I never see on vintage furniture).

My parents look for furniture that's been hand dovetailed, but they, as a small % of the population who does that and who doesn't woodwork, wouldn't care whether or not there's a line. I doubt any of their friends care about those details, and i'm not sure who taught them to, either.

[Mike Brady]

All a matter of preference of course, but why object to the layout lines and not object to the presence of exposed joinery? Are we to assume that the maker was able to make the joint without laying it out beforehand but didn't have the skill to make the full-blind version of the same joint? As Warren says, visible layout lines at least convey that the maker had mastery of his technique.

[David Weaver]

not object to the presence of exposed joinery?


Objection your honor! I object to the exposed joinery. It interrupts the lines of a piece the same way it would interrupt a song if we had to flip records four times to listen to it.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

It depends on what joinery is exposed and how it ties in. For example, exposed dovetails on a blanket chest, when done properly, add to the look of the piece in my opinion. Likewise, a through-dovetailed table leg is a nice aesthetic. To expound on your point, those exposed dovetails should not show any layout lines. :-)

[Sean Hughto]

I think we should avoid sweeping generalizations. Instead, we should look at actual pieces and ground our perceptions with reference to specific contexts. The question is whether a particular existing work is better or worse with the line.

[Tony Parent]

Another vote for no lines! I've always thought it looks sloppy, or that the person was in a hurry. That's not to say I don't leave tool marks from time to time that I don't recognize till the finish is on. I can understand someone wanting the marks there to fit in with an existing piece, but not on new work if possible.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I really didn't mean to pick a fight or (pun intended) draw a line on the issue. To me it just looks like the craftsman forgot to plane away the lines, and it distracts from the look of the dovetails.

[Sean Hughto]

Pop quiz, hotshot: you've glued up a drawer, and testing in the hole reveals a piston fit, do you plane both sides enough to remove the lines but compromise the drawer action, or leave them? ;)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug2hLQv6WeY

[Daniel Rode]

A: I kick the woodpile after realizing I made the drawer too small :)

I'm lucky to get that kind of fit after fitting let along after glue-up.


Pop quiz, hotshot: you've glued up a drawer, and testing in the hole reveals a piston fit, do you plane both sides enough to remove the lines but compromise the drawer action, or leave them? ;)

[Judson Green]

Pop quiz, hotshot: you've glued up a drawer, and testing in the hole reveals a piston fit, do you plane both sides enough to remove the lines but compromise the drawer action, or leave them? ;)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug2hLQv6WeY

Couldn't the maker have both? Shim out the runners? Shim out the drawer sides inside the cabinet? A French type bottom?

[Stanley Covington]

[QUOTE=Sean Hughto;2255489]Pop quiz, hotshot: you've glued up a drawer, and testing in the hole reveals a piston fit, do you plane both sides enough to remove the lines but compromise the drawer action, or leave them? ;)

Simple answer, Slick: don't make lines where they aren't needed, and they won't need to be removed. :rolleyes:

[Sean Hughto]

So you use your marking gauge to only mark the baselines between the tails, for example? Sounds fussy. I suppose you could use a square and knife, but that sounds fussy too.

There are lots of answers for this quiz:

You should have made a drawer 1/64 wider in the first instance, so make another drawer.

Screw around with shims or add some runners or what have you.

Realize its a drawer side and fit and action are the point, so leave it.

etc.

[Judson Green]

You should have made a drawer 1/64 wider in the first instance, so make another drawer.



Yup! This is what I've always done. Not really with the intent of removing any layout line but rather to insure I CAN fit it to the hole.

[Stanley Covington]

So you use your marking gauge to only mark the baselines between the tails, for example? Sounds fussy.

What's fussy about knowing precisely where one's marking gage cutter is located, and lifting it so it doesn't cut a line where a line is not needed? A little extra care during layout and one can entirely preclude the need to make drawer sides oversized, or waste time fussily planing a drawer just to remove lines that serve no practical purpose, but only evidence to future generations that the guy using the marking gage didn't care. Think about it. Or maybe not.

[Sean Hughto]

Think about it. Or maybe not.

You've really got my number, Stanley: stupid, incompetent, and unthinking.

[Jim Koepke]

the same way it would interrupt a song if we had to flip records four times to listen to it.

A four sided record would look mighty strange. :eek:

In a production shop there often isn't time to be fussy about things that aren't going to be seen.

My latest dovetailed drawer still hasn't been glued. Now it is just becoming a test as to how long it will be before it needs gluing.

The tails on this drawer are very proud of the front surface as part of the "look."

I may not subscribe to your religion of tails first or pins first, layout line stays or goes, end grain shows or doesn't show, but it doesn't diminish my work or your work one bit from our having different perspectives or methods.

What started out looking like a simple, innocent poll looks to be turning in to another nasty name calling thread.

I'm outta here.

jtk

[Matt Knights]

As far as I was aware layout lines were/are the sign of a quality craftsman as if they had gone that means the draw had to be planed to fit the opening and not made perfectly.

Matt

[Winton Applegate]

I can do without looking at the scribed or pencil lines what have you. I plane them off.

Which brings up a similar peeve of mine . . .
People finish the drawer front then take a half hearted wipe across the dovetail area leaving a film on the lighter wood in a stripe.
I like finish just on the half blind dovetail end grain of the darker wood avoiding the wood of the drawer side entirely. If the sides and the interior of the drawer need finish, to help keep them clean or make them easier to clean then I like Krenov's suggestion to wipe with a very much thinned coat of shellac.

[Mike Henderson]

I see a lot of high-end work where the layout lines show on all the dovetails. To me it looks bad. It is like an artist leaving pencil lines on an oil painting. Am I alone? Am I too critical? I see this often in FWW and other publications on amazing pieces, so I have to ask.
I teach the students in my dovetail classes that leaving the scribe line is a way of showing that the dovetails were hand cut and not machine cut. There are other things that demonstrate hand cut, specifically making the space between the tails too small for the shaft of a router bit, and slight irregularities in the angles of the tails, and perhaps in their spacing.

I agree that the only people who will recognize such signs are other woodworkers but that's fine with me. Non-woodworking people don't notice any of the details.

Mike

[I've been known to go back and re-scribe the layout lines if they disappear while sanding or planing.]

[Adam Cruea]

For me, if they're there, great. If not, okay too.

I can tell (usually) if DTs are machined or hand-sawn; one, look for the pattern (is it way too regular) and two, machined DTs will look different on the inside. They're curved.

To each their own, though.

[Pedro Reyes]

I don't like them. I try to plane them away, but not hell bent on making sure they disappear.

I think it is a bit silly to attach value to them tho, just me. I think a top of the line antique won't have any.

@Derek... your comment of "nobody opens drawers to check joinery, only woodworkers do" made me chuckle, every time I see a piece at someone's house I do this without realizing drawers are personal and sometimes private.

I somewhat disagree with something else you said, about people not caring if it was planed, sanded or handmade vs machine made. I agree with that, but even the ones with the least idea, are somewhat drawn to handmade stuff, it has that je ne sais quoi, in the finishes, the slight imperfections, the non-monotonous flair of hand made things. They may not know why, but I think they do like it better (not them silly lines). I have a silly step stool, with a lid, it is poplar which I consider a notch above ugly, it only has linseed oil, but it looks so homely that people quickly assume I made it and thus pick it up, open it touch it and compliment it to death... LOL a freaking utilitarian, fugly stool of poplar, I know that if that was an IKEA stool no one would comment on it.

Pedro

[Jim Koepke]

"nobody opens drawers to check joinery, only woodworkers do"

My family's business was a furniture store until my dad retired. My job there was mostly doing deliveries before or after finishing a day at my regular job.

He told me people often opened drawers to see if they used dovetails in the construction. They may not have known a lot about furniture making. Somehow the general public knows dovetails are better than finish nails when it comes to holding a drawer together.

He showed me a dresser where people did this the most and quickly moved on. It used sliding dovetails to hold the sides into the face of the drawers. He would pull a drawer out and show them that it did use dovetails.

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

Stanley,

can I call you Slick or do you prefer Hotshot ?

markiing gauge

I am curious . . .
which marking gauge you use.
Some have the thick beam in the way and it is difficult to see the knife or pin while marking.
I made a gauge with the knife on the end for this reason.

Show us yours please.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_1604_zpsa89cc170.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_1604_zpsa89cc170.jpg.html)

[Jonas Baker]

I have to say I like looking at old antiques and seeing layout lines, as well as plane tracks on the undersides of the pieces. I have a few old wooden moulding planes that have all the layout lines intact, and it makes me really appreciate all the handwork that went into those planes as well.

I suppose it is a certain aesthetic style of furniture building today that would leave these layout lines and even plane tracks in place as an homage to the woodworking techniques of the past. So in that respect, you could say it's a design feature of a reproduction style of furniture.

[Stanley Covington]

Stanley,

can I call you Slick or do you prefer Hotshot ?
I am curious . . .
which marking gauge you use.
Some have the thick beam in the way and it is difficult to see the knife or pin while marking.
I made a gauge with the knife on the end for this reason.

Show us yours please.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_1604_zpsa89cc170.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_1604_zpsa89cc170.jpg.html)

Winton, you have a kind manner and a cheery disposition. I take it you are not a gubmint employee. Feel free to call me anything you like. With a name like Stanley, well, you can imagine.

Nice gauges! Very pretty work. What's the wood? I know what you mean about the beam getting in the way.

I like the Kinshiro gage. Its kind of standard for joinery work in Japan. I think I own 5 of them in various sizes, one left handed even. I grind the blades very thin to make a precise cut, and to also help see the blade so I know when to start a line and when to end it.

The TiteMark gage is another favorite. One handed operation is very convenient. Round blade does not start and stop as cleanly as a knife blade gauge does, so it has its limitations.
http://www.japan-tool.com/hamono/Kehiki/Kehiki2.jpg

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Stanley

I echo all you say (except about Winton ..... :D )

The Kinshiro is my favourite. Are they available still? I thought that they were not. So I made a couple of single blade cutting gauges from cheapies ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/KinshiroOnTheCheap_html_m6481cde7.jpg


What is great about these and the wheel gauges is that you can set them to an exact depth by doing this ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/KinshiroOnTheCheap_html_28f206d6.jpg

The other one I like is the LV Anniversary wheel gauge in stainless steel that was available for a while (no longer). I bought a couple. Good heft and the offset rod creates a longer fence.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/3.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[bob blakeborough]

I like the layout lines mostly, but on some pieces I can see where it would aid the overall appearance to plane them away.

[Stephen Musial]

Mike

[I've been known to go back and re-scribe the layout lines if they disappear while sanding or planing.]

I use a router and jig and scribe the lines after I'm finished too! :D

[Winton Applegate]

Stanley,


What's the wood?

Thanks for the compliment.


The wood is Cocobolo. For any one who has not worked with it it is interesting and out of the norm in a couple of respects. Beyond being pretty hard it is one of the rose woods and smells just like roses when working it. Beats the heck out of my notorious purple heart which often smells like dirty feet while working it. (not after though; the smell goes away pretty fast).


Also cocobolo feels oily; you can feel it in the shavings. The wedges are cocobolo sap wood. Seemed dense and strong enough so I went with it. You can see hints of the sap wood on the corner edges of the small gauge.


Hey thanks for posting about your gauges !


Now I see them in a new light. I was aware of them from books but never actually thought I needed one but now I am going to look into getting one or two.


A person can’t have too many marking gauges and I don’t have many at all.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Winton

I never thought to ask if you made those gauges - they are so well made that I thought you purchased them!

Tell us how you use them, what you see their advantages are over other types.

Regards from Perth

Derek