WHACK!!! This one got me!

[Roger Chandler]

I had high hopes for this crotch piece from the sycamore we cut a couple of weeks ago. This is about 15+ inches as you see it here in the pics. This was a piece originally about 25" across the widest part, and I cut it on the bandsaw this morning to 16 inches round for a starting point ........put a faceplate on it and made a tenon on one side to use in my HTC-125 chuck.

This blank was really unbalanced, because if you will notice in the pics, there is wet wood on one side where the feather grain is, and then some punky spalting on the other side............talk about low speeds and I also had to turn down a bit because of a bit of wedge shape left by the chainsaw. My lathe was rockin' & rollin' & doin' the twist! :eek:

Got it to an acceptable medium and had the rpms at 420..........then it happened..........WHACK! :eek: :eek: :eek: The biggest piece flew off [totally unexpected, to be sure] and hit me in the chin and upper chest area. I had on my Trend Airshield Pro and boy am I glad I did!

The two smaller pieces came off as I was getting it true on the outside diameter but they were not concerning to me at the time......now that I look back maybe there was weakness in the layers on this piece.......being a crotch piece from the center of this fork in the tree, maybe what happened was it got a bit punky on the one branch that came off and was still very wet on the main trunk section..........at any rate, I now suspect some windshake and layer separation in retrospect.

287326287327287328287329

This is a reminder to always use proper safety equipment and especially a quality faceshield!!! I could be headed to the emergency room for stitches and broken teeth instead of typing this post had I not been practicing proper safety at the lathe. Even though I was off to the side on the cut and what is considered out of the line of fire, this one came off in a way that it's trajectory flew right to my face! :eek:

This piece probably weighs a little over a pound...........I am glad I had on the Trend...........not a scratch, just some pause and reflect for me.............thankfully!!! Be careful out there........it can happen to novice and experienced turners alike!!!

[ray hampton]

you are a lucky turner

[Mike Goetzke]

Wow that looks like quite a chunk - did you escape injury free?

I'm a new turner. Is there a way to prevent or detect this weakness ahead of time?



Mike

[charlie knighton]

glad you are ok.....do you suspect the rest of the sycamore will be the same?

[Jak Kelly]

Glad to hear you made it through that okay.
Hang in there..............
Did't know I needed Evil Knievel blood for this to!!!!!!!

[Roger Chandler]

Wow that looks like quite a chunk - did you escape injury free?

I'm a new turner. Is there a way to prevent or detect this weakness ahead of time?



Mike

No injuries!!! I am an experienced turner of several years..............this piece of wood was just a surprise.........I was using "best practices" and was safety oriented in my position and had on the faceshield protection.........just one of those things that can happen and did this time.........goes to show you that each and every time we go to the lathe we need to have safety in the forefront of our thinking!

[Roger Chandler]

glad you are ok.....do you suspect the rest of the sycamore will be the same?

I sure hope not Charlie..........I think this crotch piece had some funny things going on with it........not noticeable up front..........but you can be sure each piece of this wood will be inspected before mounting on the lathe!

[Roger Chandler]

Glad to hear you made it through that okay.
Hang in there..............
Did't know I needed Evil Knievel blood for this to!!!!!!!

Well.........Evil Knieval did plan and prepare and still got injuries........I don't think woodturning can be equally compared to jumping a motorcycle over 25 cars, but it does indeed have its concerns..........therefore each turner must realize it can be and is dangerous, but with proper care and practices, and wearing proper safety equipment and using breathing protection, it can be a hobby that the dangers are mitigated to an acceptable level of risk.

All of life has risks.........every time we drive an automobile on the highway there are risks..........driving safely and defensively can mitigate enough risk that we are willing to take the car out and go to Walmart.........the same is true for woodturning........we can use good safety practices and equipment and most of the time come home just fine!

[Bob Bergstrom]

I went 35 years without a piece blowing up, then a piece of hard maple crotch hit me in the sternum and knocked the face shield out of my Bionic unit. I now insert a form stadium cushion under my shirt as protection to my chest area. My sternum was sore for over 3 weeks.

[Doug Ladendorf]

Following on Bob's comment, I wonder if 10 years from now turning smocks will come with a built in chest protector like some use in baseball: http://www.sportsunlimitedinc.com/evoshield-baseball-chest-guard.html?kw=evoshield-baseball-chest-guard&CID=CSE-shopzilla

[Doug Herzberg]

Ouch! Sounds like you'll be sore for awhile. Glad you're okay, Roger.

[Reed Gray]

I am glad you were not hurt very badly. The risk factor on that piece would be at least a 5 on the 10 point scale just to start. When a couple of small pieces came off, that factor goes up to 8 or 9. This is the main reason why I ALWAYS stand out of the line of fire. If I do have a chip come off (I don't get concerned about bark because it always comes off unless you want it to come off and then it sticks like cockle burrs), I will make a finish cut and look for more cracks or weak spots. Perhaps it is time to review my standing out of the line of fire clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4qIM_-Jzgk

robo hippy

[Jon Nuckles]

Glad you are ok, Roger. While this can happen with any type of wood, I wonder if sycamore is more prone to coming apart. I got a lot of sycamore from a giant tree about a year and a half ago. The center of the tree, up to about 10" from the pith, could be pulled loose by hand from the outer layers. It wasn't just one ring that was loose, either; you could separate the rings from several years. It may have been that the center was starting to die and rot in my case, as it did have a distinctively darker color and a bit of an odor. The rest of the wood was fine, though it did tend to crack when drying even when I anchorsealed and bagged my roughouts. Hope your sycamore fares better.

[Roger Chandler]

I am glad you were not hurt very badly. The risk factor on that piece would be at least a 5 on the 10 point scale just to start. When a couple of small pieces came off, that factor goes up to 8 or 9. This is the main reason why I ALWAYS stand out of the line of fire. If I do have a chip come off (I don't get concerned about bark because it always comes off unless you want it to come off and then it sticks like cockle burrs), I will make a finish cut and look for more cracks or weak spots. Perhaps it is time to review my standing out of the line of fire clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4qIM_-Jzgk

robo hippy

I was not hurt at all, Reed........and I was indeed "out of the line of fire" as you show in your video.......as a matter of fact, whenever I can I make push cuts away from me to defect the direction of the chips and curlees..........this one just happened to break at an angle and with the force of my push cut, it came back in my direction.

Those first two pieces were almost like bark.......just underneath..........did not think much about it at the time, but I guess I should have stopped and inspected..........now that I think about it!

Good video on the "out of the line of fire" especially for newer turners.....I had watched it the last time you posted it............I was practicing what you show there, as I am usually want to do, but this one still got me..........I guess even the most experienced among us can have an "oops moment" once in a while!

[Roger Chandler]

Glad you are ok, Roger. While this can happen with any type of wood, I wonder if sycamore is more prone to coming apart. I got a lot of sycamore from a giant tree about a year and a half ago. The center of the tree, up to about 10" from the pith, could be pulled loose by hand from the outer layers. It wasn't just one ring that was loose, either; you could separate the rings from several years. It may have been that the center was starting to die and rot in my case, as it did have a distinctively darker color and a bit of an odor. The rest of the wood was fine, though it did tend to crack when drying even when I anchorsealed and bagged my roughouts. Hope your sycamore fares better.

Thanks for this info, Jon........this tree is my first go round with sycamore...........I had hoped to get some because I like the lacy grain and when an opportunity arose, I took advantage of it. I wonder if what you mention is a common characteristic of sycamore? If others would chime in and tell us what their experience is with sycamore, that would be great!

[Brian Kent]

Most of my early turning was sycamore. I envied people with un-cracked wood. Really enjoyed the solid pieces that Creekers had sent me. But I expected breaks to happen with my sycamore - at first in 2 out of 3 pieces. Later, with better tool angles and a little better wood-reading before I started, I can finish 4 out of 5 pieces of sycamore.

[Dennis Nagle]

That will make you sit down for a bit. Glad you are OK. Anymore, I ONLY use a shield. I've had the most stable looking wood come apart and hit me with just safety glasses on.

[Thom Sturgill]

Roger, glad to hear you're not hurt.

I don't wear safety gear enough I'm afraid. Had a chisel come off the end of a short tool rest and get thrown downward where it nearly chopped a toe off. That toe now has a split nail. I still have all ten fingers, but only because of fast reflexes. We hear of too many bad injuries. I just bought prescription safety glasses and one of the HF face masks and intend to start wearing them. Hope my intentions hold up.

[ray hampton]

its seem that any tree too big for humans to eat are a safety hazard

[Jim Underwood]

Glad you had the face shield on! Sounds pretty rough.

Ever since I had a small piece come out of my chuck and hit me in the teeth (no damage), I've been very conscientious about wearing a face shield. Went through two of those cheap 3M shields from Lowes, and finally bought the Uvex Bionix, and wear it every time I turn.

Can't seem to make myself wear that darn Airshield Pro though...

[Reed Gray]

I am trying to figure out how things can come off/deflect out of the line of fire. Tool rest? Tool? Unknown?

"That is totally and in all ways inconceivable!"

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

robo hippy

[Richard Coers]

You and I have had discussions about you turning cracked, or questionable wood before. Maybe my cautions make a little more sense to you now? Looks like lightning strike or just plain ring shake. There doesn't appear to be any attachment in the cells of that crack, it's a very clean break. I think you are going to see a lot more of that from this tree.

[Fred Belknap]

I think there is a little bit more going on than just staying out of the line of fire. I had a core come out and hit me in the chest while using a McNaughton coring tool. It almost knocked me down. I had to sit down and catch my breath a few minutes. I still haven't figured how it hit me as when coring one is pretty much out of the line of fire. You can bet I slow down when I get close to cutting off a core. If it had hit my face shield I doubt the shield would have helped much.

[Steve Doerr]

Glad you're not hurt. Sometimes you just never know.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Hey Roger, I hope you were wearing your brown pants.
faust

[robert baccus]

Chandler, about this remaining sycamore blank. Is it spoken for--I'm sure you wouldn't want to turn it now. Seriously, glad it didn't get you hit solid--lucky guy. On the plywood behind my lathe I have a big red painted line with a big chip out of it. Labeled "danger zone" after the "chip" incident.

[Roger Chandler]

Thanks everyone for your voices of concern............much appreciated! I posted this in the interest of all of us.........especially the newer turners among us who may not realize yet how much safety matters. This wood looked fine when I started, and the other piece, the square edged bowl from 2 days ago certainly gave no indication either when I turned it.

It just goes to show you that not every event can be predicted and that routine things we do fairly often can and do at times go wrong. Because I did have on proper safety equipment and because I was standing out of that danger zone...........if one can call any part of the lathe truly out of the line of fire, then the accident was not a serious one. As to why the blank took the trajectory it did.........that also has me a bit puzzled as well.......it all happened so fast that I do not know for sure if it hit the tool rest and then bounced into the faceshield and my chest. IF you look at the first pic there is a place on the broken off piece that might suggest that did happen. :confused:

You can be sure that every piece of wood from this tree will be inspected to the best of my ability before I decide to mount it on the lathe, and checked further after every minute or so when getting started until I am satisfied that it is safe to proceed. There are things we all can do to help prevent things like this from happening in the first place, like closely inspecting the wood we propose to turn..........but even then there will be the occasional piece that throws us a curve........that is where the safety equipment and good practices while turning come in........precisely the reason for my post in the first place.

One of our posters in this thread mentioned he had turned 35 years before his first blow up..........that is remarkable in itself, but it happened nonetheless.........I just hope we all will be safety minded. I had no reason to even post this from a personal standpoint, but I thought it could be used as a teachable moment, especially for the newer turners who come to SMC. To some it might seem like a reason to chide me, but I will just accept the criticism...........believe you me........I do get it! I am just interested in all our folks thinking about safety because accidents do happen........sometimes they are our fault........sometimes they are not something that you could have predicted..........that is the way this one went down. Be safe everyone, and lets all enjoy this wonderful hobby we know as wood turning!

[Richard Madden]

Roger,
Did you notice any change in the sound when you got close to the chunk that broke loose. I ask because I was turning a piece of walnut once and a definite change was noticed. Wound up being ring shake.

[Roger Chandler]

Roger,
Did you notice any change in the sound when you got close to the chunk that broke loose. I ask because I was turning a piece of walnut once and a definite change was noticed. Wound up being ring shake.

No change whatsoever in the way it sounded..........I tend to think this was ring shake as well........just one not evident.

[Roger Chandler]

"That is totally and in all ways inconceivable!"

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

robo hippy

Not sure if you directed that statement at me, Reed...............I never said those words..........I am a bit puzzled as to the context of your statement? :confused:

[Michelle Rich]

glad you survived and are here to tell us about it. This is why I never wear earmuffs, or play loud music when I turn..little cracking noises are hard to hear, but many, many times, if one is listening, they foretell what can be a bit of trouble. Keep turning, and keep LISTENING>

[Dale Bonertz]

Roger,

First I would like to say that I am glad you were not hurt. I wish you would post this on all the forums since I feel this is a very important lesson. I have been saying for years that pieces can fly off a lathe in more than one direction which is referred to the line of fire. So many have argued that this is not possible yet I have seen time and again. Your big chunk is at an angle to the piece and center line. It could have easily caught some air sending it in a bit of trajectory not expected (much like a golf ball or anything thrown up into the wind/air). It could have ricocheted off of itself because of the angle at which it separated from the main piece. Point is they can and do come off the lathe at different angles. In addition so many have this false sense of security that they stand out of the line of fire therefore don't need to wear a face shield. I'm so good attitude, that safety glasses are good enough for me makes me kinda cringe. Again I am glad to hear you are alright.

Dale

[Doug Ladendorf]

Not sure if you directed that statement at me, Reed...............I never said those words..........I am a bit puzzled as to the context of your statement? :confused:

Haven't seen it in a while but I believe Reed is just injecting some humor by quoting "The Princess Bride." Otherwise he may really mean it.


(Anybody want a peanut?)

[Roger Chandler]

Haven't seen it in a while but I believe Reed is just injecting some humor by quoting "The Princess Bride." Otherwise he may really mean it.


(Anybody want a peanut?)

Thanks for the clarification...........I am not familiar with the "Princess Bride" or lots of other pop culture movies........Just not my thing, so I was not aware of the context!

[Reed Gray]

No, not directed at you at all. Directed at myself. It is, to inconceivable that some thing will fly off at an angle. Thus a puzzle that is driving me crazy. I think the piece would have to deflect off of some thing like the tool rest or the shaft of your tool in order for it to go sideways. I need a slow motion video of it happening, but you, and another case or two where this has happened, don't have this on film. I guess from the safety point of view, I view wood on the lathe like I view every day drivers, I don't trust them for a second.

I can relate a bit to the core coming off. When I get near the bottom, I turn the speed way down, and stand out of where it will roll when it hits the floor, if it breaks out before I am ready. Since I always have the headstock slid down to the end, it goes off onto the floor. If I was on a long bed lathe, I can see where it could hit the ways and bounce up. or even hit the blade and tool rest and deflect up. Most of the time, if it stays inside the bowl I am coring, it just rattles around a bit and the tool rest keeps it inside. I do have my hand on the power button when I am getting close.

As for the Princess Bride, it has everything (a quote again). Great family entertainment if you like those types of movies. One of the greatest ever made as far as I am concerned.

robo hippy

[Roger Chandler]

Thanks Reed! :)

[Mike Goetzke]

Thanks Reed! :)

If you look at the fracture face looks like there was a lamination (no connection) on the left side of the blank. On the right side it looks like a fast fracture - the load of the de-laminated piece could no longer be held by the wood. If you envision the piece de-laminating and cantilevering up and to the right till fast fracture the piece would tend to go the right.

Mike

[Reed Gray]

Well, I don't really think so Mike. While it might be coming off/delaminating from one side to the other, The force that is pulling it off is all in the plane of the spinning wood. It might cause the piece to tumble end over end rather than flying like an arrow, but there is no force pulling or pushing it to the side.

robo hippy

[Rich Aldrich]

Glad you are alright. Robo Hippy has a really good YouTube on the line of fire. I have been practicing staying out of the line of fire as well as using the guard,

[Roger Chandler]

Glad you are alright. Robo Hippy has a really good YouTube on the line of fire. I have been practicing staying out of the line of fire as well as using the guard,

I saw it when he posted it the first time a few weeks back.........I usually do that any time I can!

[David C. Roseman]

[snip]
Point is they can and do come off the lathe at different angles.
[snip]



If you look at the fracture face looks like there was a lamination (no connection) on the left side of the blank. On the right side it looks like a fast fracture - the load of the de-laminated piece could no longer be held by the wood. If you envision the piece de-laminating and cantilevering up and to the right till fast fracture the piece would tend to go the right.
[snip]


+1 for Dale's and Mike's comments. I agree with Reed, for the most part, but I think we may be talking about related but different forces. It makes sense that separation across an oblique fault plane necessarily generates oblique force vectors that can alter the typical path of the fragment. The greatest centripetal force will always be 90 degrees from the longitudinal axis of the spin, but the force vectors can certainly be oblique to that as well.

Reed's line-of-fire video is excellent. In practice, though, I've found it's very difficult to always stay out of the typical line of fire. When we add in the fact of oblique force vectors, plus the risk of deflection and ricochet, it's even more of a challenge.

I've thought of Roger's tag line many times: "Remember, in a moment's time, everything can change!" Thanks, Roger and others, for sharing your experiences.

David

[Roger Chandler]

+1 for Dale's and Mike's comments. I agree with Reed, for the most part, but I think we may be talking about related but different forces. It makes sense that separation across an oblique fault plane necessarily generates oblique force vectors that can alter the typical path of the fragment. The greatest centripetal force will always be 90 degrees from the longitudinal axis of the spin, but the force vectors can certainly be oblique to that as well.

Reed's line-of-fire video is excellent. In practice, though, I've found it's very difficult to always stay out of the typical line of fire. When we add in the fact of oblique force vectors, plus the risk of deflection and ricochet, it's even more of a challenge.

I've thought of Roger's tag line many times: "Remember, in a moment's time, everything can change!" Thanks, Roger and others, for sharing your experiences.

David

Hummm............centrifugal forces, oblique fault planes, oblique force vectors, longitudinal axis of spin...............geez David.......glad you understand all the physics dynamics of such happenings.............I just know it hurts when it hits! :eek::D Thanks for the explanation! ;)

[ray hampton]

Hummm............centrifugal forces, oblique faults, oblique force vectors, longitudinal axis of spin...............geez David.......glad you understand all the physics dynamics of such happenings.............I just know it hurts when it hits! :eek::D Thanks for the explanation! ;)

If you think that centrifugal force will follow the same path every time when a section of wood separate from the turning THEN YOU need to made a mistake of pouring water on a fan blade while the blade are turning , watch the pattern that the water droppings made [360 degree circle]

[Reed Gray]

Well, the fan analogy is interesting. The spray pattern would most likely be more of a line on one side (back side of fan), and a larger plume on the front side where the blades are angled towards, and pushing towards. Easy to understand this one because the blades are deflecting at an angle to the spin. Dropping bb's would be more dangerous, but would send things all over the place. A chip peeling off, or delaminating will still go in a straight line, unless you drive some thing into it laterally. So, if a chunk hits the tool rest, it can deflect. If a chunk hits your tool it can deflect laterally. If the piece is not round (never is) the shape can cause it to rebound at an angle. If the piece is a sphere, and it hits some thing flat or square, it will deflect in the straight line. I have had many random pieces come off my turnings, and pieces blow up. The only time anything has gone out of the line of fire is if it bounces off of/contacts some thing else after it comes off the spinning piece.

robo hippy

[ray hampton]

Well, the fan analogy is interesting. The spray pattern would most likely be more of a line on one side (back side of fan), and a larger plume on the front side where the blades are angled towards, and pushing towards. Easy to understand this one because the blades are deflecting at an angle to the spin. Dropping bb's would be more dangerous, but would send things all over the place. A chip peeling off, or delaminating will still go in a straight line, unless you drive some thing into it laterally. So, if a chunk hits the tool rest, it can deflect. If a chunk hits your tool it can deflect laterally. If the piece is not round (never is) the shape can cause it to rebound at an angle. If the piece is a sphere, and it hits some thing flat or square, it will deflect in the straight line. I have had many random pieces come off my turnings, and pieces blow up. The only time anything has gone out of the line of fire is if it bounces off of/contacts some thing else after it comes off the spinning piece.

robo hippy

dropping ball bearings or B B 's may cost you a new radiator IF you add the water to the radiator and not the overflow reservoir

[Steven Mize]

Thanks for posting your experience. I am fairly new to woodworking in general and especially to turning. Compared to all of my other tools, the lathe seems fairly benign. I read or hear about things not to do because it is a "dangerous" cut or whatever without hearing what the danger is or even what makes it dangerous. Your experience certainly gives me something to think about and finally explain why I always wear a face shield.

Glad you are ok!

[Dick Strauss]

Do you think maybe it was ring shake (internal stress/separation between the growth rings)? I would check each piece with mineral sprits before turning another chunk. If you have ring shake, usually the end grain will have concentric cracking that soaks up lots of MS. The cracks stay wet with MS for much longer than the areas without issue just like standard radial drying cracks.

[Roger Chandler]

Do you think maybe it was ring shake (internal stress/separation between the growth rings)? I would check each piece with mineral sprits before turning another chunk. If you have ring shake, usually the end grain will have concentric cracking that soaks up lots of MS. The cracks stay wet with MS for much longer than the areas without issue just like standard radial drying cracks.

Thanks Dick..........my plan is to indeed check each piece before considering mounting it on the lathe..........That blank in the pics........it is now on the firewood pile along with 2 other pieces! I just did not like the way it looked! I cut down 2 other blanks and took away any areas that were questionable also!