Living "Off the Grid"

[Rich Riddle]

I have a friend who believes he lives "off the grid" though he does have electricity. He lacks a phone and water. Today is tax day and he hasn't filed in nearly a decade. Of course, he doesn't earn enough to file. Lives on a small "farm" where he piddles around and doesn't get much accomplished. In a decade he hasn't even put in a well or hooked up to water that is available 100 feet from his "barn" in which he lives. It's his way of beating the system in his mind. He hoards every thing possible, mostly totally useless stuff. He says it's in preparation for catastrophic events that will happen any moment. Any of the rest of you know anyone who doesn't really interact with the world? Is it more "normal" than it appears? Isn't there a name for the folks who think doom and gloom will happen right around the corner?

[Chuck Wintle]

I have a friend who believes he lives "off the grid" though he does have electricity. He lacks a phone and water. Today is tax day and he hasn't filed in nearly a decade. Of course, he doesn't earn enough to file. Lives on a small "farm" where he piddles around and doesn't get much accomplished. In a decade he hasn't even put in a well or hooked up to water that is available 100 feet from his "barn" in which he lives. It's his way of beating the system in his mind. He hoards every thing possible, mostly totally useless stuff. He says it's in preparation for catastrophic events that will happen any moment. Any of the rest of you know anyone who doesn't really interact with the world? Is it more "normal" than it appears? Isn't there a name for the folks who think doom and gloom will happen right around the corner?
I think its a case where one slips into a certain mindset.

[Sean Troy]

I have a friend who believes he lives "off the grid" though he does have electricity. He lacks a phone and water. Today is tax day and he hasn't filed in nearly a decade. Of course, he doesn't earn enough to file. Lives on a small "farm" where he piddles around and doesn't get much accomplished. In a decade he hasn't even put in a well or hooked up to water that is available 100 feet from his "barn" in which he lives. It's his way of beating the system in his mind. He hoards every thing possible, mostly totally useless stuff. He says it's in preparation for catastrophic events that will happen any moment. Any of the rest of you know anyone who doesn't really interact with the world? Is it more "normal" than it appears? Isn't there a name for the folks who think doom and gloom will happen right around the corner?

Can anyone truly and fully enjoy life living like that?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I suspect it's pretty common. It is around here anyhow, and it seems to stand to reason that more populated areas would have more. Most of the time I think it's a financial decision that gets out of hand.

[David Weaver]

Here in the burbs, you don't get folks like that because people complain them out. By that, I mean no mess will be allowed, and the property taxes, etc are too steep to stick around if you don't have income to match. There may be a few people in the city who live like that, though, especially in the worse areas where every other house or every third house doesn't even have a resident. There are hills here where people have, for years, thrown bulk items (tires, washing machines, furniture) over the side of the hill out of laziness. If someone lived messy there, it would make no difference.

I know (or knew) a few older folks who grew up in the depression and essentially lived without amenities, but they were not antisocial and they didn't believe the end of the world was around the corner. They just didn't want to spend money and had gotten accustomed to living without.

On my dad's farm where he grew up, they had a concrete block building halfway back the property that was used to store tools or something at one point, and for his entire childhood, an "old bachelor", as he called him, lived in the building and loaded shotgun shells to make a few bucks to live. There was no electricity in the building that I can recall, but they put a woodstove in and that was enough for him. Same thing, not antisocial, just didn't want to join the rat race late in life.

[Mel Fulks]

Rich,your question is one for a psychologist .

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I know of 2 bachelor brothers in southern Indiana who lived in a log cabin on the 160 acres their parents had owned. They were totally off the grid. My maternal grandparents had the neighboring farm north of them. On Friday morning, one of the brothers would walk to my grandparents house with a grocery list. My grandmother would call one of my aunts in a town 11 miles away with the grocery list. On saturday, my aunt and uncle would bring the groceries out and deliver them. These brothers used horses to plant and harvest corn, raised hogs and cut fence posts, all for sale to have a source of income to pay for their groceries. The last living of the two brothers died in the late 1950's.

I am also sure there are some east of me here in Idaho who are trying to live off the grid.

[Garth Sheane]

The choice to live small may be disguised as an environmental decision, but in most cases it probably isn't the product of a completely rational mind. I'm not saying they are crazy or anything, just that they are driven by a phobia. They don't feel competent in the normal world and this is how they withdraw. I wonder if depression doesn't play a role as well for some people.

[Jim Rimmer]

I think a lot of people think they would like to live "off the grid" until they are faced with the reality of it. No flush toilets, no electricity, no hot running water just to begin the list. Those that actually do it may have experienced something that drove them to it or as some have mentioned, they may have mental issues though not crazy.

[Scott Shepherd]

They don't feel competent in the normal world and this is how they withdraw. I wonder if depression doesn't play a role as well for some people.

Sounds a like more like the Goth movement kids follow today than someone trying live off the grid. I suspect many of them are just as happy or happier as people running kids to 14 different sporting events 7 days a week, talking on cell phones, paying $600 a month for car payments, etc.

[Mike Henderson]

My first wife grew up in rural PA without electricity or running water. After hearing her stories, I'm glad that my family always had electricity and running water, even though we lived on a farm. There's just so much labor involved in hauling water, preserving food, cutting wood for heat and cooking, etc. It didn't leave much time for anything else. When I think of how much labor we had to do on the farm - with electricity and running water - I don't know how people did it.

And then, of course, there was the problem of the outdoor toilets, and what to do when you had to pee in the middle of the night and it was snowing outside. They didn't bathe but maybe once a week, especially in the winter. And bathing was done in a "tub" in the kitchen so that the hot water didn't have to be hauled to some other room.

I'm very thankful for electricity and running water.

Mike

[David Weaver]

And then, of course, there was the problem of the outdoor toilets, and what to do when you had to pee in the middle of the night and it was snowing outside.



Or what to do if you had to pee and there was a rooster in the yard that still had its dewclaws. My grandmother grew up with an outhouse, and they used corncobs to cook and corncobs for toilet paper, though for the latter they left them outside to soften in the rain.

She told that when she was little, they had a rotten rooster for a while, and when the kids wanted to go to the bathroom, they would take turns running the rooster around the yard (there were 9 kids) until the rooster was tired and wouldn't chase them. Then they'd all go.

[Mike Henderson]

Or what to do if you had to pee and there was a rooster in the yard that still had its dewclaws. My grandmother grew up with an outhouse, and they used corncobs to cook and corncobs for toilet paper, though for the latter they left them outside to soften in the rain.

She told that when she was little, they had a rotten rooster for a while, and when the kids wanted to go to the bathroom, they would take turns running the rooster around the yard (there were 9 kids) until the rooster was tired and wouldn't chase them. Then they'd all go.
I grew up on a chicken farm. Dealing with roosters is not a problem. You use your foot to block them when they come at you, then kick them hard enough to let them know you're the dominate rooster. After that, you don't have much problem with them.

You don't want to really hurt them - farmers have to protect their assets - but you have to be able to live with them. Same goes for dogs.

Mike

[We called them "spurs". The people who fight roosters strap metal spurs over the natural spurs to cause more damage. I have no clue why people want to fight roosters. It's cruel and bloody.]

[Chris Padilla]

Does anyone watch "Doomsday Preppers" on TV? Very interesting show.

[Brian Kent]

Friend #1 - did not pay taxes. Always expected nice roads and police protection.
Friend #2 - did not pay taxes, but expected OSHA to come out a fix her broken plumbing (they did not).
Henry David Thoreau - set the bar for living off the grid, but in a recent class found out about the horrendous family problems he was escaping. I no longer romanticize his life.
Friend #3 - stocked up for Y2K. After 20 years of friendship he warned me that if I came asking for food, I wouldn't get any. I told him I'd really be fine with that. I don't know what he did with his thousands of dollars worth of dried foods after January 1, 2000. Must have been delicious. I never asked if he had collected weaponry to protect his food from the rioting hoards.

[Rich Riddle]

Rich,your question is one for a psychologist .
Mel,

I am a psychologist. Believe it or not there is no diagnosis for the people who live this way. It doesn't break any clinical thresholds. Strange but not enough to identify. They have to show other significant problems to meet diagnostic criteria in the DSM-5.

Thanks to the one who used the word "preppers." That was one I was looking to find.

[Kevin Bourque]

It wasn't too long ago that everyone lived off the grid. They all had outhouses, washboards, and wood stoves. They had to fetch water from the crick, or pump it from a well if they were lucky.

If you wanted something to eat you had to grow it, butcher it, store it, prepare it, light the stove, and then you could eat it.

All this fancy livin' is a relatively new phenomenon.

[Shawn Pixley]

It wasn't too long ago that everyone lived off the grid. They all had outhouses, washboards, and wood stoves. They had to fetch water from the crick, or pump it from a well if they were lucky.

If you wanted something to eat you had to grow it, butcher it, store it, prepare it, light the stove, and then you could eat it.

All this fancy livin' is a relatively new phenomenon.

We humans became dependent upon others with the initial divisions of labor and a the agricultural revolution say 3-5000 BCE. Even most who live off the grid, got some potion of their belongings from others (easy examples, clothes, shoes, cooking pots, stoves, etc.). It is true that a great proportion of our arctivities were conducted by ourselves 100-150 years ago. I remember outhouses, pumping water, etc... Todays life is easier, we live longer and better in our society than ever before.

[David Weaver]

Todays life is easier, we live longer and better in our society than ever before.

Ditto that, and if we need to have a connection to doing things with our hands or conserving for the sake of no waste (vs. other reasons), we can always:
* bake bread from scratch
* repair and maintain or own cars
* shave with a straight razor
* turn the lights off
* walk short trips instead of driving
etc.

Otherwise, it certainly makes sense to me to take advantage of the grid. The grid is just another tool to manage. The likelihood that "living off grid" in a major disaster is going to be a scenario where you sit on your own stockpile and nobody bothers you is very unrealistic. It works in fantasy right now for folks because nobody has a life and death need for their goods. Far better to prep for disaster by getting to know your neighbors and making friends.

[Shawn Pixley]

I really don't know anyone who lives off the grid outside Alaska. There are people there who live very similarly to how humans lived 100-150 years ago. Their life is "short, brutish and nasty" to quote Thomas Hobbes out of context. It sounds much more romantic than it lives I expect. There is a book called, "Into the Wild" that explores this sort of adventuring. Wilderness survival can be learned and it makes for great adventure stories. But adventure is hardship seen at a distance. My great grandmother told me of the winter she experienced before emigrating to the United States. All they had to eat was cabbage that winter. Sounds horrible.

Me, I'll stay on the grid.

[Mel Fulks]

Rich,I remembered you were . Guess I was just saying "You're the expert here". I know a guy in his fifties with no SS number who is kind of an itinerant worker ,I think he probably just doesn't want to pay taxes. There are still farm families ,in the mountains, that are just used to being isolated and seem strange to city folk. Maybe they just don't have any reason to go anywhere. So some are born off grid. I saved an old news paper article about a family that lived in such in inaccessible place that the children didn't go to school. Principal had such a hard time getting to their house that he told
the parents that he was giving up on trying to make the children attend. At least one child was insulted enough to start
going to school.

[Judson Green]

I don't know maybe us normal ones are really the ones that oughta have their heads examined.

Spend money on things we haven't the time enjoy cause we're to busy making money to spend on things haven't the time to enjoy and so on.

Oh and the expensive mortgage so we got a place to sleep and eat. Expensive car payment... well at least that one we enjoy on a count of the two hour round trip commute.

I'm not really sure what "living off the grid" means, as others have said I'm sure its not a cut and dry kinda thing. But all the excessive consumerism is kinda ridiculous.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rich, your friend isn't living, he's existing.

Big difference.

As a Technologist, I'm always amazed at how little thought people put into the modern world. I work for one of those modern companies, in satelite communications.

We're a 24/7 company flying spacecraft and making sure your stuff works like magic. As with all utilities, it's "just here" whether it's electricity, gas, water, or any of the functions modern society produces.

I can't think of anyone who can live without support from society, even people who "live off the grid".

They're often the people with the most reliance on society as they acquire all the stuff they can't make themselves prior to putting up the "do not disturb" sign on the end of their driveway.

I'm all for conservation and sound environmental decisions, however I don't want to sit in the dark trying to make my own axe head..............Rod.

[David Weaver]

I really don't know anyone who lives off the grid outside Alaska.

Heimo Korth! Great Vice video out on the internet about how Heimo lives. But he does get stuff (fuel, ammunition, food, etc) delivered by plane and he trades his wares from being a trapper to get those things. I'd imagine there are some others like him, just not living where he lives.

More on the minimalist side, my mother's brother (one of the chicken runners in the outhouse story) lived on almost nothing his whole life. He had an egg route that he serviced every day and if he spent money on something, he was proud of it (because it was something he didn't do often). He got up at some odd hour, like 4:30 every morning and never would pay to get an alarm clock, never had one. When my grandmother got older, she convinced him to spend some money to buy a plane ticket to visit another brother who was living 1000 miles away. While he bought the ticket, he refused to spend $5 to buy an alarm clock to make sure he'd wake up in time to make an early morning flight.

We had a term around there for folks who grew up in the depression and it was 100% self-denial of any gratification (i.e, if it's satisfying or fun, you probably don't need to do it for yourself - it could be a waste). There are probably lots of folks like that in the third world, but after the depression, there were a lot in my rural area who never grew away from that.

They weren't off grid, but they lived on less than a lot of people who are off grid.

There is a second type of off grid person who isn't remotely similar to the types mentioned in this thread, and that's the early retiree who goes "off grid" and then sets up a youtube series to try to generate ad revenue. For some reason, those types flash by my playlist on youtube, and they are filled with preachy self-righteous types claiming they're making a "back to the land" movement, but telling everyone to "only eat beyond organic food", and buying all kinds of expensive stuff no true off-gridder would buy (like large generators, expensive new hand tools, thousand dollar bread mixers, bulldozers, etc...all kinds of stuff). Fantasy off gridders, I guess.

[Moses Yoder]

Can anyone truly and fully enjoy life living like that?

There are various types of people. A true extrovert will never understand a true introvert. There is a person who must have a cell phone glued to his hand in order to be happy, so he can check the weather forecast every 10 minutes. He is truly happy so long as his technology is functioning. There is a different type of person who hates being dependent on technology. He is truly happy so long as there is no cell phone nearby.

This of course begs the question what is the purpose of life? I don't see how being happy has anything to do with my purpose. If it did, it seems to me that it would be a very empty life; the purpose of life is to be happy, and my happiness depends on external circumstances?

[Ryan Mooney]

Hmm, not sure how to respond here. I grew up for the first ~8 years of my life what I suppose y'all would consider "off the grid" and went back to live with my grandparents in essentially the same setup every summer until I was around 16 or so. From around when I was 9 or so we had electricity and hot and cold running water but still no TV and the phone was a party line and rarely used.

This meant we didn't have TV or electricity or telephone or running water (no hot and only cold at the main house not mom & dads cabin) or indoor plumbing. Radio was obtained by a long antenna (100+') and a handful of batteries. Food was whatever was fresh or canned or stored in the root cellar (this gave out around when the garden started to produce most years) or dried. Heat and cooking was wood. Night lights were kerosene. We did buy dry goods (some flour, sugar, oil, salt, and similar) a couple of times a year. Until Dad moved out all of the farming/ranching was done with horses (once he and my uncles left the round baler moved in pretty quick). My folks and aunts and uncles were mostly homeschooled (there was some boarding out - I boarded out for grade 1 and partially for grade 2 and then rode the school bus like "normal" folks).

I can say with a reasonable degree of confidence that

Most of the people who think they want to live off of the grid are vastly mistaken in their intentions.
Its not all that bad if you just roll with it, but the lack of reading material around mid winter kind of gets to you. Some members of my family were happier than others.
Outhouses do indeed suck when its 35 below 0.
This isn't to say everyone didn't work extraordinarily hard
I suspect that at least part of the hoarding is from a scarcity mentality and part is that if you don't leave home much all those little seemingly useless parts can come in handy (knowing which is which is a challenge for me to this day).


I work in computers now.. you can take that to mean whatever you want.

[Larry Edgerton]

There are a lot of people out there in a different category. People that live on the grid but are preparing for the grid to be broken. I would not necessarily call them preppers, as that tends to have a negative connotation, but rather people that see the possibility of problems in the future and choose to be prepared. Some people do not have as much faith in the system as others.

My own house has provisions for extended power outages, so that alone must make me some kind of whacko I suppose. I have a large garden, can some of my own foods, heat with wood from my own property, and am getting it set so I do most of my work at home. I like being home, and the tradeoff of working away for things I do not need in the first place seems silly to me. But then I do not watch TV, so I probably do not have the right perspective. I'm missing out on all of those ads that tell me what I need to buy to be one with the in crowd. Oh, the pain...........

I also realize that in the event of a total collapse what I have makes me a target so hold no illusions of living through an apocalypse. If that was to come to pass, I die. So be it.

I have built several installations for people a lot smarter than I that feel there is a possibility of hard times, but I am sure they are just overreacting.

I will never be off the grid, where would I plug in my tools?

Larry

[Ryan Mooney]

I will never be off the grid, where would I plug in my tools?

Larry

And therein lies the bottom line.

Although I did find a property up in Washington state a couple of years back that had a several megawatt (not a typo) private hydro setup (they were big enough they were selling back to the local grid and reasonable rates) on it which I reckon would likely have run anthing I'd be interested in running (also brings in the problems inherent in maintaining a multi-megawatt power generator which frankly would scare the boots off of me).

[Andrew Joiner]

She told that when she was little, they had a rotten rooster for a while, and when the kids wanted to go to the bathroom, they would take turns running the rooster around the yard (there were 9 kids) until the rooster was tired and wouldn't chase them. Then they'd all go.

I just pictured that scene and it made me laugh. That's probably how they got by without TV or radio. The kids would provide constant entertainment.

[Brian Elfert]

I'm not a super social person, but I couldn't imagine living out in the boonies where you might not see another person for days or weeks. The outhouse I could do without. When I go up to the Boy Scout summer camp to help I will generally not use the latrines and instead walk to one of several places with a flush toilet. Most of the time when I am up at camp helping out I stay in a beautiful log cabin with kitchen, full bathroom, and central heat/air conditioning. (Really roughing it.)

I am trying to downsize my living situation. I just sold my 2,650 square foot house and am looking for a smaller house.

[Wade Lippman]

I'm not a super social person, but I couldn't imagine living out in the boonies where you might not see another person for days or weeks. The outhouse I could do without. When I go up to the Boy Scout summer camp to help I will generally not use the latrines and instead walk to one of several places with a flush toilet. Most of the time when I am up at camp helping out I stay in a beautiful log cabin with kitchen, full bathroom, and central heat/air conditioning. (Really roughing it.)

I am trying to downsize my living situation. I just sold my 2,650 square foot house and am looking for a smaller house.

When I went to Boy Scout Camp with my sons I slept in a tent and cooked outside; that was fine. But I absolutely refused to use the latrines and would walk any distance to find a flush toilet. 30 years ago I didn't care all that much, but not now.

I also downsized from 2,900sf to 2,400sf. Of course, the new place cost 4x as much as the old; so I am not sure downsizing is the right word. (5 flush toilets).

But back to the OP; if your friend didn't have a well, what does he do for water?

[Rich Riddle]

Wade,

He uses another person's water once a week. He gets about fifteen gallons of water for the week and also bathes that day. Not the way I would want to live. It pretty much ensures he stays a bachelor to say the least.

[Pat Barry]

All I know is that when the power goes out things get real very quickly.
How to keep your food cold,
no water - if you run off a well
where to get drinking water
where to get water for cooking
how to flush the toilet,
where are the flashlights,
what other lighting do you have (I like those little solar walkway lights - they do a nice job inside at night),
how to cook your food - electric oven anyone?,
what to do - no TV, no internet, no cell phone for long - how do you charge it?

I'm sure we all hope for the power to come back on quickly.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I've heard it said that people in our modern society are only three hot meals from the stone age.

From all the goofiness I've seen at intersections where stoplights are out, I'd say that statement is pretty optimistic ;).

[Brian Elfert]

When I went to Boy Scout Camp with my sons I slept in a tent and cooked outside; that was fine. But I absolutely refused to use the latrines and would walk any distance to find a flush toilet. 30 years ago I didn't care all that much, but not now.


I camped in a tent for summer camp one week a year for about a decade as an adult leader. I would walk to a flush toilet most of the time. These days I don't camp with the boys at the summer camp, but instead my dad and I spend a week up at camp helping do construction projects a few weeks before camp opens for the summer. We could stay in a tent if we wanted, but we are there to work, not camp. A cabin with real beds and all the amenities makes it easier to work the 10 to 12 hour days.

[Ole Anderson]

In the early 50's when I was a young kid we would visit my grandparent's small farm in northern Michigan. By then my dad had graduated from college, left the military as a lieutenant colonel and had his own engineering business. But when we visited the farm, grandma would cook on a wood stove, the house was heated by two other wood stoves, they still used an outhouse, and only recently had gotten a well so they could have running water in the kitchen. They did have electricity and a phone. I remember getting up in the middle of the night and using the pot under the bed to pee into. Of course they went to the grocery store on occasion, but all the bread was baked in the wood fired oven, all the eggs were gathered each day and I remember her catching a chicken, chopping off its head and watching it run in circles. They had 4-6 cows and I remember every day they would take fresh milk to the separator room to separate the cream from the milk. Oh, and they had a real woodshed. By the end of that decade they had one regular bathroom and a furnace and things were never the same. Fond memories I am thankful for, but glad I don't have to live like that today.

[David Weaver]

using the pot under the bed to pee into

To this day, my mother (the daughter of the chicken jogger) still says "they don't have a pot to pee in" when she is describing someone who is broke. She never says they're broke, poor or anything like that, but always uses that line instead.

[Rich Riddle]

To this day, my mother (the daughter of the chicken jogger) still says "they don't have a pot to pee in" when she is describing someone who is broke. She never says they're broke, poor or anything like that, but always uses that line instead.
My grandmother and mother always used this expression but the meaning eluded me until this thread. The amazing things one learns in the Creek. They used to also add, "or a window to throw it out of."

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks.....please don't take this thread in to a discussion or start making comments about religion. It would violate the TOSs.

[John Pratt]

Wow! maybe I need to rethink my contributer status on this site.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John,

To think the volunteer staff here reads every post would be a mistake. There are too many posts and too few Moderators to do that. We have lives outside of SMC.


If you find a post you feel is offensive or violates the TOSs, simply report the offending post by clicking the triangle with the exclamation point in the lower left area of the post. You remain anonymous but it starts a thread in the Moderators Forum. Moderators assigned to that forum will be emailed to handle the situation. Often, the next moderator to come on line will go to the Moderator's Forum, see the thread and handle the situation even if it's not the forum to which they may be assigned.

[Trevor Howard]

I grew up in England (born 1970) and was raised around my grandparents and parents who used that saying. (Pot to piss in)

Although I don't remember any of my family being off the grid, my Grandparents had an outhouse until around 1978. Purely refusing to spend the money on an inside toilet. This was a deluxe model outhouse though, as it had water and was flushable. :D

[David Weaver]

I grew up in England (born 1970) and was raised around my grandparents and parents who used that saying. (Pot to piss in)

Although I don't remember any of my family being off the grid, my Grandparents had an outhouse until around 1978. Purely refusing to spend the money on an inside toilet. This was a deluxe model outhouse though, as it had water and was flushable. :D

Our perception in the US is that the population density in the UK would make "off grid" mean that you could only see 100 other people at any given time rather than 100,000 if you were standing at a point of land and looking around :)

[Kev Williams]

I know a few people... Some people's needs are small...

A friend of many years ago used to live in a 20x24 storage unit. He had a "hut" built with a kerosene heater, TV and a sofa bed. He had a bucket for bodily functions and a storm drain right outside the door to throw it in. He had a small fridge to keep food and beer cold. He had a water dispenser for his water. Not exactly "off the grid" but he lived cheap. After that ended (not of his choice) he moved into a 2 bedroom townhouse apartment. He lived in the bedroom, coffee pot was in the bathroom next door. He never used the living room or kitchen.

My older brother has lived in the same apartment for over 20 years, which is just an old hotel room, about half the size of most Motel6 rooms. There's a bathroom, a fold-down bed, and enough shelf, floor and closet space for his clothes and AV equipment. Doesn't have a car either. Has had no desire to "upgrade".

As for off the grid and who-cares-about-power-for-tools, down in Southern Utah there is (was?) a mountain man who lives in the hills, and during warm months he brings down his covered wagon and the cedar chests he's built or is building, and parks on an off ramp so he can sell the chests. He buys wood and some hardware, and builds them from scratch using only hand tools. I haven't been down that way in a few years so I'm sure if he's still down there or not...

[Val Kosmider]

In a previous life I had a family member who was sort of a prepper/back to the land/live off the grid sort of person. Was always going to make it big growing a little pot or some ginseng or some other crazy scheme to get a lot of money for doing very little.

His version of 'living off the grid' meant paying no taxes (got reported and paid a BIG fine), doing as little as was humanly possible, and overall being a leech on society--not the least of which through the medical system where, due to living in squalor, he consumed a great deal. Unhealthy, improperly nutritioned, and grossly overweight. Some life, but he fancied himself a real pioneer.

In my mind, a live off the gridder means no external services. No elec, gas, water etc., you grow your own except for dry goods staples hauled in once or twice a year, and you are basically self sufficient. It seems to be a VERY hard life and few seem to do it successfully. A lot more seem to see it as a way to escape doing any work (basically being lazy) and have a fancy name for their underperformance as basic human beings. One who did it well, and correctly, is here: http://www.nps.gov/lacl/historyculture/proennekes-cabin.htm But he had a NAVY Pension on which to provide for himself.

Finally, I will end my ramble by sort of chuckling at the prepper world. These guys have figured out that they can 'bug out/disappear' if the SHTF. There is a whole industry of people who are willing to sell them billions of dollars worth of stuff to feed their paranoia. It really is quite a juxtaposition. That survival food doesn't survive so long, it turns out.

Watching a prepper show a few months back, this guy decided he could hide out in tree house for a few months until the 'storm' blew over. He further concluded that he could wrap the tree house in aluminum foil and it would mirror the surrounding forest, and thus he would really be hidden. Well, when the sun came out, it looked like a giant reflector which was visible for miles around. Not to be deterred, he pushed ahead, and held a little practice drill. Scramble the car/kids/family, and head to the recluse......except the wife was afraid of heights and not about to have anything to do with living 20 feet off the ground!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

All those who "live off the grid" aren't necessarily mentally ill, lazy or some small group of strange introverts.

There are a several ranches in Idaho that are only accessible by hiking, horseback, airplane or boats. They provide lodging and guide services to those who want a wilderness photography trip, fishing or hunting. They have water supplies, flush toilets, showers, bath tubs and most cases their own electrical supply as they are surrounded by true "wilderness". There are no roads, utilities or electrical lines to their ranches. Often they do a booming business and you have to make reservations over a year in advance if you want to use their services in the peak seasons.

[Rich Riddle]

Val,

That story made me laugh and proves quite humorous. You are correct about an industry that feeds off of those folks. My friend has "food" that comes in a 5 gallon bucket that supposedly will feed a human for six months. It's shelf life is advertised as a quarter century. He won't get in trouble for not paying taxes because he never earns above the minimal threshold; in some years less than five hundred dollars. You might be onto something about wanting to basically be lazy for some of the people like my friend; if not, unorganized seems a common characteristic. Others really doing it work very hard, like farming on steroids. Since you folks started writing and offered a few terms to research, there is a plethora of information on this phenomena. Who knew such a large segment of people do this? Thanks to everyone for providing valuable information.

[David Weaver]

Rich, perhaps more interesting is that the internet presence of most of the preppers seems to be disproportionate compared to the actual numbers. For folks that might want to be considered anonymous in a collapse (as they put it) they leave a very large digital footprint sharing every detail about what they're doing to prepare.

I've seen the buckets before, online only, though. If you watch anything on youtube about solar energy or gardening, sooner or later it decides that you should see prepper videos. They're interesting to watch for a little bit, they sort of give you that "wait, how did I end up watching this video?" feeling.

[Larry Edgerton]

All those who "live off the grid" aren't necessarily mentally ill, lazy or some small group of strange introverts.

There are a several ranches in Idaho that are only accessible by hiking, horseback, airplane or boats. They provide lodging and guide services to those who want a wilderness photography trip, fishing or hunting. They have water supplies, flush toilets, showers, bath tubs and most cases their own electrical supply as they are surrounded by true "wilderness". There are no roads, utilities or electrical lines to their ranches. Often they do a booming business and you have to make reservations over a year in advance if you want to use their services in the peak seasons.

What he said. Also one thing to consider as you lump all of these people into useless oxygen thieves is that publicly announcing what you have is counterproductive to the true intent. I'm sure many of you know people that are prepared for some hard times but choose not to advertise this, for obvious reasons.

Larry

[Brian Elfert]

Are you really "off grid" if you have all the amenities of "on grid" living? People want to experience nature at a ranch or lodge with no power, but they want all the luxuries of a 5 star hotel once they get back from nature.

[David Weaver]

but choose not to advertise this, for obvious reasons.

Larry

That would seem the reasonable track if you really were preparing for such an event. Most of the rest of the youtubing and all of that of "preppers" and survivalists seems a lot more like escapism than pragmatism. And that's fine, the pragmatic folks end up looking intelligent by what they don't do or say, instead.

I'm always surprised by the videos where someone has a knife that they've gotten, and they're doing some sort of survivalist type thing, and they say they "need a knife made of CPM 3V" because carbon steel isn't tough enough to cut brush or use as an emergency axe, etc, and they proceed to attempt to maul a tree and immediately are out of breath without getting through it. Usually the person doing the talking is as pasty white and out of shape as me. I find those to be some of the more humorous videos, and less offputting. I doubt the people making them intend for them to be humorous, though.

Just think, before the internet, we weren't exposed to so much of this stuff unless someone was local to us (and I suppose we could consider ourselves POTP (part of the problem) because we talk about things that other folks might find pointless).

[Erik Loza]

This reminds me of a conversation on another forum. The topic was "Why not live in your car?". The OP's logic was that if you had a something like an SUV, you could sleep in it. For bathing, you could shower at the gym. For mail, there was a post office box and you if you had mobile devices, you could stay connected to the world. The whole concept sounded off at first but as I thought about it, his thinking made sense in a certain perspective until someone posted the question, "Where are you going to take your date after dinner?". A lot of this off-the-grid type stuff could work (especially for young, single guys) but the would the marginalization you would incurr be worth it?

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Mel Fulks]

Some states will let you sleep in your car on the road shoulder. Illegal in other states and police will wake you up and tell you to drive on. Info should be in the tourist brochures !

[John Sanford]

Rich,

It is unusual to take 'the simple life' to that extent, but not extraordinary. The "beating the system" and preparing for the apocalypse aspects may simply be rationales he offers for not interacting a lot with the rest of society, or it could be his real motivations.

************************************
Regarding "living off the grid", strictly speaking it merely means that one is not connected to the utilities (and increasingly, communications) grid. It doesn't mean that you don't have electricity, merely that you generate your own in some fashion AND are not connected to the grid. Many folks generate their own while remaining connected, either because they don't generate enough, they want backup, or they sell electricity to the grid. Ditto for water and sewer. Does having a septic tank mean "you're off the grid"? Well, it means you're off the sewer grid. Nor does it mean that you don't participate in the modern economy, don't socialize, etc.

Now, many people will take it further. They may forgo any energy sources that are outside of their control. So, hydro/geo/wind/solar on their own land are good, but grid/generators not so much. Wood/coal are the primary fire sources, although some will consider oil/gasoline/diesel/natural gas/propane as acceptable for the short term. Food, a combination of stockpiles and grow/catch/trade. They may farm, or at least have a vegetable garden. They may farm using a tractor, and/or draft animals. They may eliminate modern communications tech. They may be hermits. They may homeschool. Others "live off the grid" while commuting to work in the city, dropping their kids off at school on the way and picking up a movie at Redbox on the way home.

The motivations for going off the grid are almost as numerous as the degrees of off the grid one can go. One motivation that's gotten little mention is an awful lot like what motivates many people here to work wood. Metaphorically speaking, living off the grid is a "hand made" life, not one made in a factory. The virtues of simplicity, self-reliance, lower cost, authenticity, personal design, and by gosh, can I do it? (note that realizing these virtues can be as elusive in living off the grid as in woodworking.)

So remember, as you're buffing out the last section of the new dining room table that you hand crafted alone in your shop, using wood felled by an artisanal lumberjack, you've gone off the furniture making grid. When you stand back to admire your handiwork, as the notions for the next project swirl about in your mind, ask yourself: "Am I crazy?"

;)

[Rick Potter]

About that "pot to pee in". Just in case someone here has never seen one, it was standard fare to keep a lidded ceramic pot under the bed back in the good old days. Wealthier people had the pot in a chair with a lift up lid.

My great grandfather was a big shot with the Cleveland Trust Bank. He lived in the same house in downtown Cleveland till he died at 96 around 1955. A few years earlier he converted a closet to a toilet room for his old maid daughter, Aunt Daisy. He never used it, continuing to use the outhouse in the back yard till the day he died. In his case, I doubt the 'grid' had anything to do with it.

I have to admit that I just recently had a new outhouse built at my desert cabin. Someone used the old one for target practice. I haven't seen it yet, but I will be there next week. The new one has electric lights, and will use a camping type porta potty.

One bad thing about living in SoCal is that it is mostly reclaimed desert. In case of some cataclysmic disaster, we are basically SOL. No water to grow anything, no game to hunt, pretty hard to live off the land, and way to many people to try it.

Rick Potter

[Mel Fulks]

Pots were often kept in sideboards for use of men after dinner. In fact they had urinals in the shape of classical columns
etc that stayed in public rooms. I always thought they were just for men until I saw a notation in the famous Pepys diary about his return to his home
and in going through his dining room surprises a lady friend "doing something upon the pot".

[Brian Elfert]

Some states will let you sleep in your car on the road shoulder. Illegal in other states and police will wake you up and tell you to drive on. Info should be in the tourist brochures !

The stretch of I-80 through the Salt Flats in Utah has huge road signs every so often telling drowsy drivers to pull over. I-80 there is straight for so many miles that drivers start to nod off from lack of any real driving to do.

Back on topic, many people think of "off grid" living as living with minimal or no power and no flush toilets somewhere isolated. I guess you could have solar or a generator out in the middle of nowhere with a well and septic and still have all the comforts of a modern home. TV and Internet can both be delivered via satellite dish just about anywhere.

[Rich Riddle]

"Where are you going to take your date after dinner?". A lot of this off-the-grid type stuff could work (especially for young, single guys) but the would the marginalization you would incurr be worth it?

Erik Loza
Minimax USA
At my age, where to take a date after dinner would matter little in the scheme of things. The real issue is where would I keep all the Minimax and other woodworking tools? That's the deal breaker for many of us.

[Kev Williams]

This reminds me of a conversation on another forum. The topic was "Why not live in your car?".
There's a whole bunch of old people (some not so old too!) that do this all the time. They call themselves "full-timers". And their "cars" would be, of course, motorhomes! :)

I'm hoping to be one someday-- soon! We already have the "car"... ;)

[Ryan Mooney]

ask yourself: "Am I crazy?"

;)

The answer is indubitably yes. I'm unsure that the correlation with the current conversation is strong enough to be definitive, but I'm not sure it isn't either.


At my age, where to take a date after dinner would matter little in the scheme of things.

Most days I'm lucky to be awake after dinner so the question is likely moot. The obvious answer in the case of folks in different circumstances would be back to her place (and if she's also livin inavandownbytheriver I guess it was meant to be).

Having lived in both cases there are times when either is attractive. When I'm on my Nth useless meeting of the day (one is really to many), heading along behind a walking plow starts to look pretty good. On the other hand I can certainly recall when after a day behind a plow just about anything else looked pretty good (this is one example of of course many).

[Andrew Joiner]

I don't know of anyone who lives off grid year-round in a home. I fantasized about it in the 60's and 70's when they called it self sufficiency. I was growing up and the little responsibility I had felt like such a burden. A piece of land and a log cabin seemed like a dream life. Still does in a way, but now I'm older and either spoiled and lazy or just wiser. I got real responsible in the 80's and retired at age 40 so I could travel and windsurf.

I lived in a van most of the time for the first few years of retirement. I had a house that I rented out. I loved windsurfing so much that I was willing to sacrifice most of the comforts of conventional life. To live simply and be where the wind was made it worth it. The freedom to drive to warm Texas from the frozen north-land every fall was a tremendous thrill.

I slept in a new van that I converted. Just a bed and windsurf gear storage. Slept on the beach,or on a quiet side road. I could only live that way for something I'm passionate about. With windsurfing I'd sail all day and be so tired and content that I was happy to eat a simple meal and go to sleep when it got dark. I have many friends who still live in vans for sports they love. I can't see living "off grid" or in a van unless you had something you loved to keep you busy all day. It would get to boring.

I gave up living in a van when I met my wife who had a nice house overlooking the windy Columbia Gorge. She's also beautiful and her house had a hot shower.http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon6.png

[Jim Matthews]

I don't question the desire to live simply.

It's the relentless gathering of useless junk that's problematic.
Hermits don't carry bags.

******

Living off the grid implies two things;
* you supply your own needs, as best you can.

That's easier to do in arid climates with plenty of sun.

* You're involved with your neighbors,
it's impossible for one person, let alone a family
to manage everything on their own.

Amish communities are a successful example of how it can work, over generations.

The downside in the isolation is the shallow gene pool that results, and the tragic
consequences born by children. (IE, Hereditary deafness on Martha's Vineyard.)

Anyone that tells you isn't telling you straight.

Preppers and their close cousins, the hoarders aren't attempting to be socially responsible
or stewards of the Land for generations to come, they're anticipating (and often precipitating)
Armageddon where only those with the most Spam and ammo will rule.

The root of the Prepper phenomenon is tribal mentalities.

It's one of the reasons Papau New Guinea is such a verdant garden of Peace and Prosperity.
That's what Preppers are advocating - "Me and Mine against the rest".

[Charles Wiggins]

I have a friend who believes he lives "off the grid" though he does have electricity. He lacks a phone and water. Today is tax day and he hasn't filed in nearly a decade. Of course, he doesn't earn enough to file. Lives on a small "farm" where he piddles around and doesn't get much accomplished. In a decade he hasn't even put in a well or hooked up to water that is available 100 feet from his "barn" in which he lives. It's his way of beating the system in his mind. He hoards every thing possible, mostly totally useless stuff. He says it's in preparation for catastrophic events that will happen any moment. Any of the rest of you know anyone who doesn't really interact with the world? Is it more "normal" than it appears?

I know several people who have moved off the grid in one form or another. For some it means raising more of their own food, for others, energy independence. It's becoming fairly common in this area. Most are not the hermit type though. Compared to the folks I know, your friend sounds lazy rather than independent or frugal. My mother grew up in her grandparent's home, living much the same fashion as Ryan Mooney describes, when "off-the-grid" was known as everyday life. I experienced some of that in my childhood. When I was a kid they had gotten electricity (2-wire knob & tube) with an electric stove and power washing machine, with rollers on top, in the kitchen, a oil heating stove in the front room, and running water in the kitchen, but nowhere else. There was no indoor bathroom. They still kept a pitcher & basin in the bedroom to wash up in the morning. When necessary we bathed in a washtub in the kitchen. They still had an outhouse privy and a spring house for refrigeration and a working hand water pump on the back porch. I don't recall an electric refrigerator, but they might have had one. Despite having the electric cook-stove they still kept the old wood-burning cook stove for backup heat in the kitchen on really cold days.

At our own home we've installed a fireplace insert to heat with wood, mainly to keep the gas furnace from running so much, but also as backup heat during power outages. We've also started collecting rainwater runoff from the roof, mainly to water the garden; but it is clear enough that if we lost water service we could flush toilets and wash clothes with it, and we'd only have to boil it to make it potable for drinking and dish washing.

Actress Daryl Hannah has become quite famous for living off the grid. From what I recall, she has a house out in the middle of nowhere that runs on solar or windmill power most of the time with a biodiesel backup. She has all the standard amenities including Internet access. She is connected to "the grid" but usually generates an excess of power, so she sells electricity back to the power company. She has an old diesel El Camino that has been converted to run on biodiesel that she collects and processes herself.


Isn't there a name for the folks who think doom and gloom will happen right around the corner?
In general, I think they are known as "Doom & Gloom Conspiracy Theorists." The ones that actually do something about being ready for it are called "preppers," as in "preparation." I follow a couple on YouTube. My favorite is LDSPrepper (http://www.youtube.com/user/LDSPrepper), mainly because his setup is more suburban than rural, and it's amazing what he's crammed into his tiny little bit of property. If a more rural setup is of interest, WranglerStar (http://www.youtube.com/user/wranglerstar) is kinda cool.

Cheers,
Charles

[Erik Loza]

At my age, where to take a date after dinner would matter little in the scheme of things. The real issue is where would I keep all the Minimax and other woodworking tools? That's the deal breaker for many of us.

I couldn't give up a garage. That's the deal breaker. My wife's sanctuary is the kitchen and mine is the garage. We talk at times about putting a cabin on some property out in the Hill Country and she talks about a frontier-style lifestyle but it usually stops the moment I mention the word "outhouse".


There's a whole bunch of old people (some not so old too!) that do this all the time. They call themselves "full-timers". And their "cars" would be, of course, motorhomes! :)

I'm hoping to be one someday-- soon! We already have the "car"... ;)

Hahaha, indeed. I slept in various of my past vehicles on more than one occasion but would only do it again in an RV or camper.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Ryan Mooney]

We talk at times about putting a cabin on some property out in the Hill Country and she talks about a frontier-style lifestyle but it usually stops the moment I mention the word "outhouse".
Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Hehe, that's just the easy part, at least most of the year (winters could get a little rough).

Imaging cooking in a kitchen with its 80F/90F/100F outside with no AC over a wood stove. Some of my early memories of canning food in the summer involve it being really hot! An inside/outside kitchen would be real nice. Similarly heating wash water with the wood stove is HOT and there is a reason we baked bread the same day (the whole place is an oven only once a week + wood usage). Speaking of wood usage going through 12+ cords a year wasn't uncommon. Wood cook stoves burn a whole lot of wood (much worse than a wood heater) and it all needs to be split small. Moms elbows took years to recover from hauling water up the hill (we had a spring on the property that fed the main house so we did laundry there, but the cabin wasn't plumbed in at the time - doing so required digging ~1/4 mile of ditch about 6' deep - its one of those devils paradoxes where you're so far behind getting stuff done you can't get ahead to not work so hard). Reading at night was difficult with the poor lighting (we had kerosene but its still yellow, dim and flickery in comparison to modern lighting).

There were some good sides as well, and there is clearly a way to balance that some by using appropriate technologies in appropriate places. An analogy I think a lot of us can understand is the trade off of using a bandsaw to rough cut wood even if you're mostly a neander.

[Erik Loza]

LOL, Ryan, thanks. I love her to death and understand the "romance" behind the idea but as you point out, the lack of A/C and everything else, I think, maybe is outside the field of view. I try to gently steer the discussion toward, "What if rented a furnished cabin for a week or two?", whenever the topic comes up.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Ryan Mooney]

LOL, Ryan, thanks. I love her to death and understand the "romance" behind the idea but as you point out, the lack of A/C and everything else, I think, maybe is outside the field of view.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

The funny thing is that its almost universally the other way where the guy has some theory of roughing it and the woman has the "are you crazy" repsonse (certainly true in our household :D).

I know of one other couple sort of in your situation; she ended up buying a cabin in the woods an hour or so from their house (relatively plush with electric lights, indoor plumbing and baseboard heating - heaters added so they could get insurance) but has a heck of a time getting the rest of the family to even go up to that. Their kids are simply appalled at the idea of being someplace without internet for a few hours :rolleyes: "But moooom how will I play my <insert game of week>" and her husband has a similar response :D

[Rich Riddle]

I often ponder having a second home (less than 800 square feet total) with little more than electricity and well water. Do any of you folks had experience with "dugout" or "earth contact" homes as second homes. Don't they stay reasonably warm in the winter and cool in the summer if cut into a hill?

[Ryan Mooney]

I often ponder having a second home (less than 800 square feet total) with little more than electricity and well water. Do any of you folks had experience with "dugout" or "earth contact" homes as second homes. Don't they stay reasonably warm in the winter and cool in the summer if cut into a hill?

My one grandpa built a house with the back half like that. They do work pretty well but there are a few caveates.

Make sure you seal the outside of it REALLY WELL. This was in a very dry climate and he still had mold encroachment problems through one of the walls (hypothesis that this may be even worse than a basement in this regard because you end up with a bit more temperature swing which can cause more condensation but I'm not sure - all I know is that once you got the mold you got the mold and you ain't getting rid of it out of the concrete).

Design it so you get sufficient light since you're blocking off a lot of the windows. The solar tubes or similar should help a lot and on grandpas house the front was all windows (with a large overhang/porch so lots of light but no direct sun).

Figure the whole house into the design. If you don't insulate the rest of it well having the one side in the hill obviously doesn't help.

There are a few other odd-ball energy efficient house construction types if you're into that sort of thing: straw bale (with stucco skim), rammed earth (in tires or otherwise), soda bottle and concrete, slump block/adobe, etc... All have their up and downsides (the downside in a lot of cases being a ton of labour :D) but are interesting to look at anyway.

[Larry Edgerton]

Rich,

It is unusual to take 'the simple life' to that extent, but not extraordinary. The "beating the system" and preparing for the apocalypse aspects may simply be rationales he offers for not interacting a lot with the rest of society, or it could be his real motivations.

************************************
Regarding "living off the grid", strictly speaking it merely means that one is not connected to the utilities (and increasingly, communications) grid. It doesn't mean that you don't have electricity, merely that you generate your own in some fashion AND are not connected to the grid. Many folks generate their own while remaining connected, either because they don't generate enough, they want backup, or they sell electricity to the grid. Ditto for water and sewer. Does having a septic tank mean "you're off the grid"? Well, it means you're off the sewer grid. Nor does it mean that you don't participate in the modern economy, don't socialize, etc.

Now, many people will take it further. They may forgo any energy sources that are outside of their control. So, hydro/geo/wind/solar on their own land are good, but grid/generators not so much. Wood/coal are the primary fire sources, although some will consider oil/gasoline/diesel/natural gas/propane as acceptable for the short term. Food, a combination of stockpiles and grow/catch/trade. They may farm, or at least have a vegetable garden. They may farm using a tractor, and/or draft animals. They may eliminate modern communications tech. They may be hermits. They may homeschool. Others "live off the grid" while commuting to work in the city, dropping their kids off at school on the way and picking up a movie at Redbox on the way home.

The motivations for going off the grid are almost as numerous as the degrees of off the grid one can go. One motivation that's gotten little mention is an awful lot like what motivates many people here to work wood. Metaphorically speaking, living off the grid is a "hand made" life, not one made in a factory. The virtues of simplicity, self-reliance, lower cost, authenticity, personal design, and by gosh, can I do it? (note that realizing these virtues can be as elusive in living off the grid as in woodworking.)

So remember, as you're buffing out the last section of the new dining room table that you hand crafted alone in your shop, using wood felled by an artisanal lumberjack, you've gone off the furniture making grid. When you stand back to admire your handiwork, as the notions for the next project swirl about in your mind, ask yourself: "Am I crazy?"

;)

Very reasonable post.

I am having a hard time understanding where some of the animosity is coming from in some of these posts? A person has the right, last time I checked, to live a lifestyle different than the norm as long as he or she is not hurting anyone else. Maybe I'm missing something.

My parents lived 7 months of the year in a cabin we built with no power, and a well we hand drove, with a pitcher pump. They stayed there every Spring/Summer/Fall for over 30 years, and stayed in an approved house through the winter months. Had an outhouse, a very nice one by outhouse standards, and was 13 miles to the closest power line. Not too far from Lake Superior, absolutely beautiful country with great fishing. As kids we loved to go there, our kids, their grandchildren loved to go there and still talk about their time there to this day. Not really seeing the problem with the people that do this, but I am seeing a problem with some that don't see it as fitting in to their vision of reality. Fear maybe?

Larry

[David Weaver]

I often ponder having a second home (less than 800 square feet total) with little more than electricity and well water. Do any of you folks had experience with "dugout" or "earth contact" homes as second homes. Don't they stay reasonably warm in the winter and cool in the summer if cut into a hill?

Rich, you should go to the site permies.com. They've got all kinds of interesting stuff there, including some stuff that is way way out there, but it's a clean site and people are required to be nice to each other.

There are accounts of stuff like houses dug into a hillside and made to be invisible otherwise on properties so that you can't see them (as a code enforcement person), and they have aspects like earthen roofs, and one of my favorite things in some of the other houses - a new trend called a rocket mass heater (which is a near zero particulate wood burner that exhausts through a large of cob and stays warm after the fire is out).

[Erik Loza]

My wife and I just made a road trip through NM and saw a community of "earth ship" houses outside town. Pretty crazy designs...

http://earthship.com/

I don't think they are totally off the grid but are at least somewhat self sustaining.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Rich Riddle]

David and Erik,

Thanks for those links. They are amazing; ingenuity at its finest.

[Roger Feeley]

I have a friend that is 'prepping'. I don't understand why. He's 450 lbs, an insulin diabetic, can barely walk and has battled a MRSA infection for 10 years. But he's hoarding food and weapons against the day that it all comes down. He doesn't seem to realize that, without insulin and antibiotics, he wouldn't survive a month.

At the other end of the spectrum is the Morman doctrine of 'Provident Living'. I'm not a Morman but as I understand it, provident living is the philosophy of self-reliance. They are encouraged to keep a stockpile of necessities in the event of a natural catastrophe. The idea is not so much, "I've got mine" but more like, "I don't want to be a burden in times of crises." I have to respect that.

For myself, I don't want to be off the grid. I like the grid...a lot. But I would like to be grid-friendly. Sort of like the Mormons. My house draws about 1-2kw with the frig and heat pump running. If I were planning on staying in this house very long (I'm not), I would love to have about 3-4kw in solar panels on the roof to take care of the basic operation of the house. It would take a LOT of solar to operate my 3hp table saw + dust collector + lights. I wouldn't even try. I have no interest in messing with batteries so I would prefer a net-metering scheme that is revenue neutral to the utility. Like the Mormons, I seek some measure of self-reliance. I don't want a hand-out but I would like to reduce my dependency on the grid.

[Brian Elfert]

The problem with solar and no batteries is if everybody depends on the grid when the sun isn't shining then the power companies have to have a lot of power on standby for when the sun goes away. Many power plants can't just be turned on and off based on power demand. Coal power plants typically have to run 24x7 because it takes a long time to bring the plant on or offline. I toured a coal plant once and they claimed if the generator ever stopped turning that the metal shaft would flat spot due to the immense weight. (I have no idea how they ever did work on the generator.)

[Mike Henderson]

The problem with solar and no batteries is if everybody depends on the grid when the sun isn't shining then the power companies have to have a lot of power on standby for when the sun goes away. Many power plants can't just be turned on and off based on power demand. Coal power plants typically have to run 24x7 because it takes a long time to bring the plant on or offline. I toured a coal plant once and they claimed if the generator ever stopped turning that the metal shaft would flat spot due to the immense weight. (I have no idea how they ever did work on the generator.)
If you look at electricity demand, it's generally greater during the daytime than in the evening or at night - this is especially true in southern states in the summer, but it's true even without that. Solar allows the electric company to not have to bring peaking generators on line during the day to help meet the increased demand. There's still a drop in usage after about midnight, but overall, it allows the electric companies to run their generators at a more constant power output than if solar was not in the mix.

Mike

[Leo Graywacz]

I think a lot of people think they would like to live "off the grid" until they are faced with the reality of it. No flush toilets, no electricity, no hot running water just to begin the list. Those that actually do it may have experienced something that drove them to it or as some have mentioned, they may have mental issues though not crazy.

What??? How do you figure?

Off the grid means no connection to the local utilities, not abandonment of everything modern.

Off the grid doesn't mean you can't have a generator or a solar farm, doesn't mean you can't have a well or a flush toilet. You can have all the modern conveniences of life and be off the grid.

Off the grid is more of being independent of the gov controlled everything.

[Brian Elfert]

In the late 1980s I went on a trip with the Boy Scout troop to a cabin on an island all the way north in Minnesota. This was winter so we skied in about 11 miles across the ice.

The island had two cabins. One looked like a modern home with all the amenities of home. It had generators for electricity and running water with a flush toilet (in the summer only). The folks staying there must have hauled in 100+ gallons of gas by snowmobile. (Gas was still pretty cheap then.) The only thing it didn't have was a phone. I'm not sure how the place was heated. Propane hauled in maybe. The other cabin we stayed in was totally rustic with a wood stove for heat, an outhouse, and a lantern for light. It did have a regular propane stove and a propane fridge.

This just shows how you can have a modern home with modern amenities totally off grid.

[Roger Feeley]

+1 on what Mike said. I spoke with a lobbyist for the electric companies once. He said that the electric utilities here in Kansas kind of like solar for two reasons:
1. It's more predictable than wind. When the wind is gusty, the power output fluctuates wildly and it's harder to balance the system. With solar, changes due to clouds are slower and easier to compensate for.
2. Solar tends to produce the most energy when the most energy is needed.

My idea is not to put very much back into the system in a net-metering situation. I mostly want to just take the edge off. That's why I use the term 'grid-friendly'.

[Larry Edgerton]

If you look at electricity demand, it's generally greater during the daytime than in the evening or at night - this is especially true in southern states in the summer, but it's true even without that. Solar allows the electric company to not have to bring peaking generators on line during the day to help meet the increased demand. There's still a drop in usage after about midnight, but overall, it allows the electric companies to run their generators at a more constant power output than if solar was not in the mix.

Mike

http://www.consumersenergy.com/content.aspx?id=6985

This is a Consumers Power facility that uses the excess power generated at night to create a large battery in its simplest sense. Clever, predictable, yet simple.

Larry

[Tom Stenzel]

I toured a coal plant once and they claimed if the generator ever stopped turning that the metal shaft would flat spot due to the immense weight. (I have no idea how they ever did work on the generator.)

Brian, "flat spot" was a poor choice of words. The shafts will bow between bearings if not spun for a length of time. The turbine and generator have to be spun at low RPM until the droop straightens out before being run up into operation. That can be hours. Starting up a generator doesn't happen quickly.

-Tom

[Tom Stenzel]

http://www.consumersenergy.com/content.aspx?id=6985

This is a Consumers Power facility that uses the excess power generated at night to create a large battery in its simplest sense. Clever, predictable, yet simple.

Larry

Hi Larry,

The problem with the Ludington pumped storage you only get 70% of the energy back that you put into it. When it was built the plan was that Consumers would build a nuclear plant at Midland that would supply and fill Ludington during low demand periods and Ludington would take care of daytime peak needs. It was a good plan and would have maximized the efficiency of the nuke plant. They would have made a good pair.

After huge cost overruns the Midland plant ended up being built as a conventional coal plant. Consumers Energy never did get the benefit from Luidington that they had hoped for.

-Tom

[Leo Graywacz]

70% energy retrieval is better than throwing the energy away 100%.

[Frank Drew]

What??? How do you figure?

Off the grid means no connection to the local utilities, not abandonment of everything modern.

Off the grid doesn't mean you can't have a generator or a solar farm, doesn't mean you can't have a well or a flush toilet. You can have all the modern conveniences of life and be off the grid. I agree.


Off the grid is more of being independent of the gov controlled everything. My utility companies are private enterprises, not government entities.

[Jim Matthews]

Off the grid is more of being independent of the gov controlled everything.

If you don't use public conveyance, cash or communications - perhaps.
As soon as you're consuming things that travel by road, rail or air - not so much.

It's easy to confuse living small with the dead end road that lead to Ruby Ridge or Waco.
The intent is clearly not the same.

If someone within ballistic range has holed up and pointed weapons at the rest of us, it's no longer a private matter.

[Jim Matthews]

My utility companies are private enterprises, not government entities.

Mine, too.
Not that it makes them any more responsive, reliable or cheaper...
they own the lines and pipes, that makes them a defacto monopoly.

That's SO much better than the stranglehold wielded by public utilities.

* pfshht *

https://www.publicpower.org/

Some of our younger contributors may not have a clear grasp on how
public funding made rural electrification possible, and how a Nationwide
infrastructure investment strung lines to the remaining homes that were left out.

http://newdeal.feri.org/tva/tva10.htm

Anybody that thinks living off the grid is a great idea hasn't washed clothes by hand
or carried water. Every modern, thriving economy uses power - and lots of it.

Those that don't tend to have several less attractive features in common.

[Jim Matthews]

All this fancy livin' is a relatively new phenomenon.

You forgot awesome.
And desirable - the first thing most developing countries deploy
is television, followed by washing machines and refrigeration.
http://www.prweb.com/releases/commercial_laundry_washer/commercial_drycleaners/prweb11735949.htm

[Jim Matthews]

Far better to prep for disaster by getting to know your neighbors and making friends.

That must be what these people are doing; the encampments surrounded by razor wire,
the deployed weaponry, the reluctance to contribute while our "doomed" economy still functions.

I wonder what portion of the US GDP goes to buying dried meals, unfit to eat?

[David Weaver]

Well, I'm not really picking sides to that extent. I think that's applying a label appropriate for a few to all, and not fairly.

I think the biggest threat from a large part of "non participants" is that they may make a trip to the ER for eating some of that unfit meat you mentioned.

[Ryan Mooney]

I think the biggest threat from a large part of "non participants" is that they may make a trip to the ER for eating some of that unfit meat you mentioned.

My one roommate in College was from someplace also fairly rural (I'll leave the exact location out because its irrelevant but northern US) and told me a story about a fellow in his town who lived/worked at the dump. Apparently this gent was a scavenger of the most primitive sense and would collect road kill, etc.. as it came in for victuals. One day my roommate and his brother were hauling some stuff to the dump for their folks and saw that there was a huge cloud of flies around the back of his cabin/shack/whatever and being somewhat concerned they stopped by to see if he was ok. Turns out all was fine but "yeah you're probably right that deer is getting to ripe to eat cause the dogs quit eating it a couple of days ago". So apparently with sufficient conditioning the human digestive system can handle meat that is so ripe even the dogs wouldn't eat it (and I've seen dogs eat some astonishingly foul stuff).

[Mark Bolton]

Im really late to this thread but have been reading it with interest on my phone.

I know it was just conversation but I look at the term off grid differently more similarly to (I think) David's reply. I have an off grid home but to me that means no grid tied power and possibly telco/gas as well and thats about it.

When I think of the individual(s) being spoken about who may practice subsistence living, trying to avoid taxes, bills, overhead, and so on, I think of them in my own term of "under the radar" or "flying below the radar". The term off-grid to me just doesnt cross over but perhaps thats because I live in an off grid home.

All the points have been very interesting and valid. My home is simply a conventional home. No special appliances, no special lighting. Conventional fridge, washer, big screen TV's, on demand water heater (propane), and so on. Of course how conscious and conserving one has to be is dependent on how much you choose to invest in the system but I have had no problems.

That being said, my motivation was a $25K cost from the utility to bring power to the property at which point I would be at the dead end of 8 miles of older line (prior to the 2 miles new) which see's frequent outages, voltage fluctuations, and so on. I simply wasnt interested in that expense and then paying a monthly bill for service.

Something I did find interesting though was how many seemed to have a problem with someone choosing to live a very modest/frugal/humble life in an effort to require very little money to exist. Of course psyche issues aside (hoarding, hermit, reclusive) I just dont see the problem with someone making a conscious decision to live as small a life as possible to perhaps allow them to really do the things they enjoy or are passionate about (windsurfing from a van comes to mind). That taken to a more permanent setup with a house and property but a life lived with a conscious focus on keeping things minimal could allow for a tremendous amount of time and resources for the things that truly make that person happy. I guess I mean it doesnt always equate to some guy muttering around a building with a dirt floor talking to the walls and not bathing.

I think a well planned setup in the right area could allow someone to live a pretty rich life for an amount of money that wouldnt require an IRS filing but I dont have it in me to do it.

With regards to my home much here was spot on, you will never have the power to run major tools without a monumental investment but I have a commercial shop (on the grid which is also very low overhead) and its my work so when I go home I want to be away from all that. I use to always want my home and shop to be together (were for years) but having them separate has been something I really enjoy though I could easily see it from the other side again one day.

We did have an outhouse early on while we were getting setup and I too was one who despised public latrines and porta-john type affairs but to be completely honest I think something is different when its only you. I had no issue with the outhouse whatsoever and actually enjoyed seeing and hearing the wildlife/birds and so on. Agreed winter sucks, and if you were sick it would suck worse (never was thankfully). That said, getting the bathroom in way back then I have said may times I'd sell you the toilet for fifty bucks but you couldnt give me a million dollars for the shower. (well... :-) ) Living without a shower and taking old school bucket baths just plain sucks. I would say a shower and washing machine are the two hardest things to live without.

It of course doesnt pertain to the reclusive/personality issue types but for me its exponentially harder to do as an individual as opposed to two people also. Living a remote/rural life really makes you understand why people had lots of children. Im sure boredom led to frisky behavior, and a lack of contraception, but additionally you are breeding a workforce and a much needed one at that. When I read, watch programs, meet people, who have lived long periods in remote solitary lives Im very humbled. It would be extremely difficult.

[Brian Elfert]

Some friends of mine built a shed at their rural lake home with a shower and a latrine toilet in it to take care of those essentials. They had a water heater to heat the water. They had a well for water and the waste water from the shower was just dumped on the ground. There was a property tax reason not to have a bathroom or running water in the home. They didn't have a septic system anyhow. I believe the home was taxed as a garage since it had no septic, no bathroom, and no running water.

[Jim Matthews]

Some friends of mine built a shed at their rural lake home with a shower and a latrine toilet in it to take care of those essentials.

Do I understand correctly that they don't live in it, year 'round?

"I would say a shower and washing machine are the two hardest things to live without."
Mark Bolton

These are the key amenities that make urban living so attractive. As I discovered in the 6 and a half days we were without power following Hurricane Irene,
if you want running water, you need to have power to energize the pumps. No power - no water.

[Larry Edgerton]

Do I understand correctly that they don't live in it, year 'round?

"I would say a shower and washing machine are the two hardest things to live without."
Mark Bolton

These are the key amenities that make urban living so attractive. As I discovered in the 6 and a half days we were without power following Hurricane Irene,
if you want running water, you need to have power to energize the pumps. No power - no water.

Inadvertently you have highlighted why one would choose to have the ability to be independent of the grid. I will be hooked to the grid as long as it is there, but also have the capability to run everything in my house that is important without it for a period of time. To you it may seem alarmist, but to me it s a practical matter. Reality is that we will be without power, so I choose to be prepared. A hot shower and a load of laundry are no problem.

[David Weaver]

Larry, as a matter of practice - about 3 or 4 years ago, my parents lost power in the middle of winter because their service line got knocked down by a tree in an ice storm. They were out of power for over a week because they were low priority in an area where there were a lot of outages due to ice damage. It's one thing to be without water and power in the summer, but another entirely to be without it in the winter when you have hot water heat, etc. They had no real choice other than to drain everything and go elsewhere.

They now have the ability to run their well and furnace for a couple of weeks without power. I think they'd find your comments pretty practical.

[Ole Anderson]

I head north in the winter to snowmobile at a friend's A-frame log cabin he bought about 10 years ago. The PO was a survivalist and built it fearing the worst when Y2K rolled around, so it is off the grid. He built his own solar electric system utilizing six 12 volt batteries, five 80 watt solar panels, an inverter and an old generator. Heated with a wood stove. A propane tank allows use of a gas stove and water heater. Full indoor plumbing. The well works without firing up the generator. Off the grid with all of the conveniences.

My home is in a subdivision that has a county maintained well system with a generator. So if I loose power, I can still flush the toilet and take a hot shower. May seem minor, but it is not. But on top of that I have a small generator that I use to backfeed the electrical panel so I have full lighting and electronics. Just no electric oven, big power tools or a/c. Been looking at a NG generator, but can't justify the $5k price tag as we don't have frequent outages, just storm related ones.

[David Weaver]

City water here and fairly frequent power outages in the summer when thunderstorms hit. You are exactly right about being able to flush the toilet, take a shower (and get drinking water, too). We've been without power for a week here once (a reminder that it might be urban and suburbia, but we're in appalachia with a lot of trees and terrain). It was in the summer. It was like being amish (well, maybe not) - when there's no TV and internet, you're just sitting around reading a book or two and then waiting to go to bed once its dark. I definitely got more sleep those days.

For about a week, too, neighbors were outside of their houses talking to each other. That changed fast, though, once the power was back on.

Made me think hard about what the next water heater will be in my house - a WH with no forced fan works power or not, and that week it was a life saver to not have a more efficient design.

[Mark Bolton]

There was a similar situation here when that Derrechio(sp) hit and wiped out the mid-atlantic. There were many here without power for two weeks and many more just as David's folks who were low priority and just needed a limb knocked of a line and a new fuse on the transformer but were dead last on the list. Three weeks with no power put a lot of people at their wits end and even those with generators were spending hundreds of dollars a week in fuel.

Since then the Generac's have been flying in here by the tractor trailer load. Virtually every home we've done has one and 20kw is about the smallest you'll ever see. Many are saying "I want my home to run like its on the grid" so they are installing 30kw and larger. I spoke with one installer who put one in a few miles from here that had a V8 engine. I cant recall the size but it was for a very large home, all electric.

Personally I see the convenience of it being a single unit which comes on automatically but the whole house thing just doesnt make sense to me in that the vast majority of the time the genset is running its powering a trivial load. A few lights, TV, etc. Youve got all that fuel going up in flames for very little use. Many people in fact, especially those on propane, are complaining that the exercise cycles are costing them a bunch all year long. Its kind of funny but I know being without power is a real chore especially homes with a well.

I have a Lincoln Ranger 250 welder here at the shop that serves as my backup power at the off grid home when needed but its of course not automatic.

[Mark Bolton]

These are the key amenities that make urban living so attractive. As I discovered in the 6 and a half days we were without power following Hurricane Irene,
if you want running water, you need to have power to energize the pumps. No power - no water.

I dont think its inherently urban living, I think its just living. Even in the city if the power goes out you may have water and sewer but that will likely be it and that may not even be guaranteed at times.

[Mark Bolton]

I head north in the winter to snowmobile at a friend's A-frame log cabin he bought about 10 years ago. The PO was a survivalist and built it fearing the worst when Y2K rolled around, so it is off the grid. He built his own solar electric system utilizing six 12 volt batteries, five 80 watt solar panels, an inverter and an old generator. Heated with a wood stove. A propane tank allows use of a gas stove and water heater. Full indoor plumbing. The well works without firing up the generator. Off the grid with all of the conveniences.

My home is in a subdivision that has a county maintained well system with a generator. So if I loose power, I can still flush the toilet and take a hot shower. May seem minor, but it is not. But on top of that I have a small generator that I use to backfeed the electrical panel so I have full lighting and electronics. Just no electric oven, big power tools or a/c. Been looking at a NG generator, but can't justify the $5k price tag as we don't have frequent outages, just storm related ones.

Sounds like a fairly typical system Ole, very similar to what I run but perhaps a bit more sophisticated on my end. I have 1400watts of PV, a small wind generator (basically nothing as this area isnt great for wind but it was cheap) and 8 very large 6v industrial batteries (about 150lb each) and of course all the associated inverter, charge controllers, and so on. No well at my place but instead 2400 gallons of in-ground cisterns and rainwater catchment. The property is on a 1500' ridge and iron/sulfer/cal-mag is very common in wells around here. I dont know a single person who has great well water. Like the power, I was unwilling to take a crap shoot on a 300' well just to have iron water. No regrets. A bit more work, but good water and a 120v deep well pump in the cistern makes it like being in town.

Its by no means a substitute for the grid. Its the most expensive power you'll ever have. But for the situation, it seemed the best solution.

[Dave Anderson NH]

We have had a power outage of 2 days or more at least once each year since 2008. We are also at the end of the service line for our power cooperative so we get reconnected last. The worst for us was the December ice storm of 2009 when we were without power in sub freezing temps for 6 days. Being without heat wasn't bad since I have a wood stove and even the second floor never got below 46F. It was the loss of all the fridge and freezer food, no running water (we're on a 380 ft well), and having to cook on the top of the wood stove which is not an old fashioned kitchen stove. Going down to the creek and filling up 5 gallon cans with water to flush toilets gets old real quickly as does having to go to relatives 20 miles away to shower so you can go to work.

Finally last year we bit the bullet and had a 14kw Generac installed along with 2 120 gallon propane tanks and all the appropriate auto transfer switching and auto start electrics. Since then during the 2 8-12 hour outages we've had, we were without power for a total of 15 seconds each time. I can live with having to go around and resetting the time on all of the digital stuff in the house.

[Larry Edgerton]

There was a similar situation here when that Derrechio(sp) hit and wiped out the mid-atlantic. There were many here without power for two weeks and many more just as David's folks who were low priority and just needed a limb knocked of a line and a new fuse on the transformer but were dead last on the list. Three weeks with no power put a lot of people at their wits end and even those with generators were spending hundreds of dollars a week in fuel.

Since then the Generac's have been flying in here by the tractor trailer load. Virtually every home we've done has one and 20kw is about the smallest you'll ever see. Many are saying "I want my home to run like its on the grid" so they are installing 30kw and larger. I spoke with one installer who put one in a few miles from here that had a V8 engine. I cant recall the size but it was for a very large home, all electric.

Personally I see the convenience of it being a single unit which comes on automatically but the whole house thing just doesnt make sense to me in that the vast majority of the time the genset is running its powering a trivial load. A few lights, TV, etc. Youve got all that fuel going up in flames for very little use. Many people in fact, especially those on propane, are complaining that the exercise cycles are costing them a bunch all year long. Its kind of funny but I know being without power is a real chore especially homes with a well.

I have a Lincoln Ranger 250 welder here at the shop that serves as my backup power at the off grid home when needed but its of course not automatic.

This is why I have a welder generator and a small 1000 watt generator that can handle the furnace/wood furnace/fridge. I only use the big one for the well/WH.

[Mark Bolton]

This is why I have a welder generator and a small 1000 watt generator that can handle the furnace/wood furnace/fridge. I only use the big one for the well/WH.

Thats smart Larry. I always thought thats what i'd do if I ever had to. One of those little honda inverter generators, even though pricey, are so quiet and perfect size for the little stuff that runs 90% of the time. Save the gallon an hour super sucker for when you need it.

In that big outage I was hauling my welding machine from house to house charging up the fridge/freezer, letting them run some water, and so on but man, it'd hurt to hear that gallon an hour going out the window so you can watch TV.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Living "off the grid" is subjective.

Which grid? I have 2 city water systems, domestic for household use and irrigation (untreated) for use outdoors.

I use natural gas for HVAC and heating water.

My house and shop have their own electrical services.

While the corporation provided me with a cell phone for years, I didn't have a personal cell phone until my sudden deafness forced me to retire. My wife travels much more than I and being deaf, having the texting ability comes in very handy when she is out of town. Depending on the equipment at both ends of a telephone conversation, I can struggle a bit even with my cochlear implant. Thus texting is important. I never hand that number out, however. The only time I turn on that cellphone is when she is out of town. The rest of the time it stays in a drawer unless I remember to pull it out and charge it.

For over 2 decades I elk hunted in a serious way with 5 other guys. We camped at an elevation of 7,000 feet in wall tents with wood stoves and 3" foam pads on army cots. We hunted on foot and used mules to pack out the elk. We got water from the nearby spring, and boiled it. We often dug a pit for a latrine. Hunting in the extremely steep mountains causes one to sweat a lot. One of the guys rigged a old large institution soup pot with a spigot and a 12 volt RV water pump. He wrapped several feet of copper line around one of the wood stoves. We would park one of the pickups near the tent and clip leads from the RV pump to the truck battery. We would heat water by pumping from the pot, through the tubing into a collapsible container with a valve at the bottom. With a tarp around three trees, we'd hang the container of hot water in the tree and shower to reduce chaffing caused by the salts from sweating during hunting.

I miss those days!

At times after spending 10 days in more than 20" of snow, we appreciated the modern conveniences when we returned to town.

[Mark Bolton]

Living "off the grid" is subjective.

For me it has simply always means, or at least starts with, no electric, i.e. the electric "grid". This then carries the implication that if there are no electric lines running to your property, there are also no phone lines (shared pole), and no gas line (why run gas when there arent the others), same for city water, and sewer, and so on.

In our society electricity is start for everything, it all starts there, without it, none of the subsequent utilities would ever be there.

Of course there are variables in the mix like my property for instance which is remote yet has a natural gas well on it which I could tie into if I pushed the issue but have no desire.

I like your hunting story, and while my place is not "roughing it" by any means, especially nowadays with wireless hotspots and so on, I often enjoy the contrast of the two and think it would be good for more people to experience that "roughing it" if only for the appreciation factor.

I for instance grew up in a normal suburban life, I dont think I ever even camped much until I was grown. I moved to this property and took my time getting setup and things built (a bit too much time lets say). It was like a break from reality, a bit of a long vacation/sabbatical. In that time we roughed it a lot and for longer than we planned because we were too busy goofing off in the woods, four wheeler riding, exploring, and just enjoying ourselves. So the day the bath/shower/laundry came on line it was like the second coming. A hot shower, and a looooong one at that. And this is no lie, to this day (which is years and years later) I dont care when or where, when I step into a hot shower an overwhelming feeling of appreciation comes over me. It happens every single time.

For me, it really speaks to the small things in life. :o

[Leo Graywacz]

You can light a gas appliance with a match. No electricity required.

[Mark Bolton]

You can light a gas appliance with a match. No electricity required.

I agree Leo, the only killer is most gas ovens now will either #1 not regulate temperature without power, or #2 wont even let you light them with a match any longer. The cook top yes, which will of course get you through an outage. But most gas ovens now use a heat element to light the burner (which, in an off grid home consumes a lot of power by the way). This element is chewing up about 400 watts of power the entire time the oven is on. So imagine you have a cake in the oven and 400 watts of lighting in your home (that you gain no benefit from) at the same time. The gas valves in the new ovens will not open until that element is at temp and there is no way around it. Standing pilots and milli-amp gas valves are becoming very rare nowadays.

The modern ovens out there that do allow you to light with a match will only run wide open (no temperature control). Great if your going to eat pizza through an outage!!

A lot of people look even to gas lighting like the old days however the moisture they will dump into a home is obscene so they are not a good choice for moisture and health.

Its all a fun conversation and at least to me, makes me appreciate more an more todays modern conveniences.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

My gas furnace won't run without the electricity to it. I am pretty sure, it won't ignite the main burner unless the fan is blowing.

[Andrew Joiner]

Something I did find interesting though was how many seemed to have a problem with someone choosing to live a very modest/frugal/humble life in an effort to require very little money to exist. Of course psyche issues aside (hoarding, hermit, reclusive) I just dont see the problem with someone making a conscious decision to live as small a life as possible to perhaps allow them to really do the things they enjoy or are passionate about (windsurfing from a van comes to mind). That taken to a more permanent setup with a house and property but a life lived with a conscious focus on keeping things minimal could allow for a tremendous amount of time and resources for the things that truly make that person happy. I guess I mean it doesnt always equate to some guy muttering around a building with a dirt floor talking to the walls and not bathing.

I think a well planned setup in the right area could allow someone to live a pretty rich life for an amount of money that wouldnt require an IRS filing but I dont have it in me to do it.


I quoted you a few times Mark. Your posts on this ( and elsewhere on Sawmillcreek) mirror my thinking! I too was surprised that a bunch of woodworkers don't sympathize more with modest/frugal/humble life concepts. Of course we have to remember that everyone here is on an electric powered device. Oh, and I did mutter around my van if the wind quit for more than a day.:)



Of course there are variables in the mix like my property for instance which is remote yet has a natural gas well on it which I could tie into if I pushed the issue but have no desire.

I like your hunting story, and while my place is not "roughing it" by any means, especially nowadays with wireless hotspots and so on, I often enjoy the contrast of the two and think it would be good for more people to experience that "roughing it" if only for the appreciation factor.

I for instance grew up in a normal suburban life, I dont think I ever even camped much until I was grown. I moved to this property and took my time getting setup and things built (a bit too much time lets say). It was like a break from reality, a bit of a long vacation/sabbatical. In that time we roughed it a lot and for longer than we planned because we were too busy goofing off in the woods, four wheeler riding, exploring, and just enjoying ourselves. So the day the bath/shower/laundry came on line it was like the second coming. A hot shower, and a looooong one at that. And this is no lie, to this day (which is years and years later) I dont care when or where, when I step into a hot shower an overwhelming feeling of appreciation comes over me. It happens every single time.

For me, it really speaks to the small things in life. :o

You have a natural gas well? I assume that utilizing the gas is not cost efficient?

Your shower story is very true. Go without some thing for awhile and then you really appreciate it. I learned that traveling and windsurfing. My thing was toast as well as showers. I could boil water on my single burner stove, but when I got back to my house toast was a treat.

[Frank Drew]

if you want running water, you need to have power to energize the pumps. No power - no water.

The first house I lived in when I moved to Virginia many years ago had a gravity fed water system; primitive as that house was in every other respect, at least we always had water to the house (even if some of the service lines in the house were prone to freezing.)

[Jim Matthews]

Inadvertently you have highlighted why one would choose to have the ability to be independent of the grid. I will be hooked to the grid as long as it is there, but also have the capability to run everything in my house that is important without it for a period of time.

I too, have a backup generator.
It's for the rare occasion when power is interrupted by natural events.

Living off the grid implies no connection to the power grid, whatsoever.

[Sean Hughto]

Fighting The Crowds On Walden Pond

Henry David Thoreau's Walden; or Life in the Woods, deserves it's status as a great American book, but let it be known that Nature Boy went home on weekends to raid the family cookie jar.

Thoreau begins his American classic with lines that are memorable for their simplicity, clarity, and ... utter deception.

When I wrote the following pages, or rather the bulk of them, I lived alone, in the woods, a mile from any neighbor, in a house which I had built myself, on the shore of Walden Pond, in Concord, Massachusetts, and earned my living by the labor of my hands only. I lived there two years and two months. At present I am a sojourner in civilized life again.

Most Americans have an image of Thoreau as a rough-hewn, self-educated recluse, who, following the grand tradition of prophets, disappeared into the solitude to commune with nature. We picture his little shack far off in the woods, the man a voluntary Robinson Crusoe, alone with his thoughts and the bluebirds.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Thoreau could see the well-traveled Concord-Lincoln highway across his field; he could hear the Fitchburg Railroad as it steamed along the track on the far side of Walden Pond.

He visited Concord Village almost every day; Thoreau's mother and sisters, who lived less than two miles away, delivered goodies baskets every Sunday, stocked with pies, doughnuts, and meals; Thoreau even raided the family cookie jar during his frequent visits home.

The more one reads in Thoreau's unpolished journal of his stay in the woods, the more his sojourn resembles suburban boys going to their treehouse in the backyard and pretending they're camping in the heart of a jungle.

The children of Concord visited on weekends and the cabin became a popular picnicking spot for local families. One winter, fellow writer Bronson Alcott had dinner there on Sunday nights; Ralph Waldo Emerson and Nathaniel Hawthorne were frequent visitors.

And, on August 1, 1846, the good ladies of an antislavery group held their annual celebration of the freeing of West Indian slaves on his doorstep. The cabin once packed twenty-five visitors inside.

"It was not a lonely spot," understates Walter Harding in his excellent The Days of Henry Thoreau. "Hardly a day went by that Thoreau did not visit the village or was visited at the pond." The joke making the rounds in Concord was that when Mrs. Emerson rang the dinner bell, Thoreau came rushing out of the woods and was first in line with his outstretched plate.

After a year, Thoreau was giving little lectures in the Concord Lyceum on his experiment in simplified living. Words of his shack spread fast so that tourist stated arriving, asking for a drink of water, hoping to catch a glimpse of the inside.

But Thoreau, a meat-eating Harvard grad, did find time away from the crowds to write about man and nature. Walden is a mesmerizing tale of St. Francis on a budget.

However, if you have a hankering to duplicate Thoreau's experiment in simplicity, perhaps you to should build a shack a couple of miles from the family home, just off the road, by the railroad tracks, a five minute walk from the village. And don't forget to schedule the weekend picnics.

[Richard Zacks.(1997). An underground Education. New York, NY: Doubleday.]

[george wilson]

I had enough of "living off the grid"(not really,but "pioneer living is more descriptive". When I was in Texas we lived in a single car garage with 2x4's naked inside the walls. In Oregon also. We had an out house.

In Alaska,we lived for about 3 or 4 years without electricity,and mostly without plumbing. I had to get up at 5:00 and carry oil up the hill for the day,then walk 4 miles to school. Then,carry oil up the hill for the night. We had no out house at all. Instead,a slop jar which was,of course my job to empty. I would not use it most of the time. Instead,I had 2 short planks laid over 2 logs,with a space between them up in the woods. When it got filled up,I'd move to a new spot.

WE bathed once a week in a tin tub in the kitchen,in front of the open oven door. It was the only warm enough spot in the house.

We finally got water,but no toilet for another few years. I had to go down the hill early in the morning and chop open the ice in a box lined with wood. The water faucet was down in there about 2 feet down. I had to reach down in the ice water and turn the water on,then,at night,I had to go down there and turn the water off to keep the pipes from freezing,though they were buried 4' deep by hand.

No,I had enough of that crap. Oil always had to be carried to the house until we left and went back to the states.

[Ryan Mooney]

No,I had enough of that crap. Oil always had to be carried to the house until we left and went back to the states.

I reckon there are about four sorts when it comes to this sort of thing:

Those who never have and have no interest (the modernists)
Those who never have and think they want to (the optimists)
Those who have and never want to again (the realists)
Those who have and liked it enough they want to again/still (the primitivists)


I'm somewhere between 3 and 4, a lot of people who have land in 3 (as clearly George has) and I think the 4's often tend to drift more towards 3's as they get older (ok that was interesting can I just have a hot shower now?). In fact I'd argue that two things are what really keep me in check; running water not something you miss until its not there, and hot showers these make all of the other modern inconveniences worth while. A close third is the internet, there are a lot of things I'm not sure I'd ever figure out how to do if it wasn't for easy access to information.

[Jim Matthews]

From what I've seen, if you try to live off the grid
you go back onto the food chain.

People who live "on the grid" don't have to worry about Cheetahs at the train station.
(With apologies to Louis CK.)

There's simpler, and there's frugal, and there's nasty,brutish and short.
Less electricity is consumed at each step, I suppose.

Americans should go hug a coal miner.
They work in the dark, so we don't have to.

[Daniel Rode]

When I was a teen I recall my brother and I discussing how we might survive in the forest for a year by living off the land. The idea being that we would start out with a very minimal set of supplies and tools. (Survivor type shows came decades later)

At first, we were confident that we could complete our great adventure as long as we started in spring with a good knife and warm coat. As we discussed this more and started planning in greater detail, it soon became clear just how difficult it would be. One has to be not only highly skilled and tenacious but somewhat lucky to survive a month, let alone a year. Living off the grid, even on the margins of societal support, is a tough way to live.

At this point in my life, I have no interest in living off the grid. I like modern conveniences. However, that doesn't mean I don't want to escape the rat-race and a good portion of modern society. But there are people to feed, clothe and house that don't share my enthusiasm for a simpler life. How I must live is not necessarily how I wish to live.

I blame it on the Sumerians. First with the silly writing, then the mud bricks and cities. Pretty soon everyone is a soft bellied suburbanite working for The Man :)

[Ryan Mooney]

I blame it on the Sumerians. First with the silly writing, then the mud bricks and cities. Pretty soon everyone is a soft bellied suburbanite working for The Man :)

I blame beer actually. You start not being able to collect enough grain to be able to keep in supply, so you start trying to help that by growing some and that means you have to settle in one place to keep it rolling.. Then you need to start keeping track of all that grain and the resulting product so you invent tally sticks which lead to writing.. and then its all downhill from there.

[David Cramer]

Thanks for the history lesson Sean, and I sincerely mean that. I had a history course that I took at a local college about 15 years ago...the teacher never mentioned any close to what you've shared. You surely opened my eyes:)


David



Fighting The Crowds On Walden Pond

Henry David Thoreau's Walden; or Life in the Woods, deserves it's status as a great American book, but let it be known that Nature Boy went home on weekends to raid the family cookie jar.

Thoreau begins his American classic with lines that are memorable for their simplicity, clarity, and ... utter deception.

When I wrote the following pages, or rather the bulk of them, I lived alone, in the woods, a mile from any neighbor, in a house which I had built myself, on the shore of Walden Pond, in Concord, Massachusetts, and earned my living by the labor of my hands only. I lived there two years and two months. At present I am a sojourner in civilized life again.

Most Americans have an image of Thoreau as a rough-hewn, self-educated recluse, who, following the grand tradition of prophets, disappeared into the solitude to commune with nature. We picture his little shack far off in the woods, the man a voluntary Robinson Crusoe, alone with his thoughts and the bluebirds.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Thoreau could see the well-traveled Concord-Lincoln highway across his field; he could hear the Fitchburg Railroad as it steamed along the track on the far side of Walden Pond.

He visited Concord Village almost every day; Thoreau's mother and sisters, who lived less than two miles away, delivered goodies baskets every Sunday, stocked with pies, doughnuts, and meals; Thoreau even raided the family cookie jar during his frequent visits home.

The more one reads in Thoreau's unpolished journal of his stay in the woods, the more his sojourn resembles suburban boys going to their treehouse in the backyard and pretending they're camping in the heart of a jungle.

The children of Concord visited on weekends and the cabin became a popular picnicking spot for local families. One winter, fellow writer Bronson Alcott had dinner there on Sunday nights; Ralph Waldo Emerson and Nathaniel Hawthorne were frequent visitors.

And, on August 1, 1846, the good ladies of an antislavery group held their annual celebration of the freeing of West Indian slaves on his doorstep. The cabin once packed twenty-five visitors inside.

"It was not a lonely spot," understates Walter Harding in his excellent The Days of Henry Thoreau. "Hardly a day went by that Thoreau did not visit the village or was visited at the pond." The joke making the rounds in Concord was that when Mrs. Emerson rang the dinner bell, Thoreau came rushing out of the woods and was first in line with his outstretched plate.

After a year, Thoreau was giving little lectures in the Concord Lyceum on his experiment in simplified living. Words of his shack spread fast so that tourist stated arriving, asking for a drink of water, hoping to catch a glimpse of the inside.

But Thoreau, a meat-eating Harvard grad, did find time away from the crowds to write about man and nature. Walden is a mesmerizing tale of St. Francis on a budget.

However, if you have a hankering to duplicate Thoreau's experiment in simplicity, perhaps you to should build a shack a couple of miles from the family home, just off the road, by the railroad tracks, a five minute walk from the village. And don't forget to schedule the weekend picnics.

[Richard Zacks.(1997). An underground Education. New York, NY: Doubleday.]

[Dave Sheldrake]

A nice supply of weapons and tinned food is essential so you can eek out an existence in the event of war or disaster that turns the planet into an uninhabitable wasteland. If it came to say "Nuclear Armageddon" all I can hope for is the first bomb lands on my house.
I just love the idea of watching my kids grow up in a world where radiation would cause all manner of genetic mutations and problems or seeing them die very young slowly from thyroid cancer or such like.

I personally believe preppers could spend their time more usefully contributing to a safer and more friendly society rather than adopting the doctrine of "He with the biggest guns wins"

cheers

Dave