stropping

[Noah Wagener]

What is happening with a strop? That green paste is the same size as a fine synthetic finish stone so why not just use a stone? Doesn't the strop contact the edge itself rather than just one plane or the other that a stone would? Doesn't that round the edge?

And what about unloaded strops? What is being accomplished? Is there anything i can use besides leather to get similar results after an Arkansas stone? Like a really hard stone with little abrasive action?

[David Weaver]

The compound does cut a little less deep on a strop than on a stone, but it also rounds the edge a little. How much of each depends on how much pressure you use and how hard the strop (the strop absolutely has to be clean other than metal swarf and green stuff, though).

You can use biggs or owyhee jasper if you want to use something natural that isn't leather. A bare leather strop with light pressure removes the wire edge. With heavier pressure, it has the ability to burnish a little (but if there are metal particles or grit on the strop, heavy pressure can backfire by nicking up the iron or at least scratching it up).

The finer the edge you bring to a strop, the lighter the pressure. When you're bringing a translucent arkansas edge to a strop, for example, very light pressure will remove the wire edge without bending the edge too much. To see what I mean by bending, finish stropping with light pressure on the bevel side of an iron. See how it shaves hair on the bevel side and the other way around. Then lay the iron flat on a strop and with some pressure pull it across a leather surface. Try it again, and you'll probably find that the side that shaves better switched. That is the reason that stropping a razor requires light pressure - you can move the edge back and forth ever so slightly.

[Ryan Mooney]

That is the reason that stropping a razor requires light pressure - you can move the edge back and forth ever so slightly.

I've also wondered how much (if at all) this causes work hardening of the edge. It naively seems like it would some but am not sure how to quantify it.

[David Weaver]

I'm not sure how much work hardening it creates, but I think whatever amount their might be is quickly blasted off of the edge from wear in planing.

But I really don't know, nor do I know if a considerable amount of work hardening might be done by something like an owyhee jasper slab, which will step up the sharpness level of a carbon steel iron pretty significantly.

[Ryan Mooney]

Makes sense on a plane edge.. It might? matter more on say a razor or a detail carving tool though.

I thought of it mostly because of experience with scythes where you intentionally work harden the edge; but that's a somewhat more aggressive since you actually peen it (and substantially draw it out some).

Back to Noahs original question and your "rounds the edge" comment - that would effectively be akin to a secondary (or tertiary as it may be) bevel to some extent as well I think which changes how the edge survives some (probably for the better in most cases).

[ken hatch]

I've come to the conclusion that a slight "rounding of the edge" is one of the reasons to strop. Yes it will remove the wire edge with minimum breaking of the edge and that is important but the slight rounding retards fracturing of the edge. I've done A&B tests using different ways of sharpening with and with out using a strop. Almost without fail if the finish stone was a polishing stone the first cut would feel and look sharper than the stropped edge finished on the same stone. By the second, third and fourth cuts the stropped edge would cut better and if examined under a 20X lope would show less fracturing than the non-stropped edge. YMMV.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, it's sort of foreign territory. I've read all kinds of things about razors, like heating the edge on a strop, etc, and I don't know what of that is true. I know I won't ever be able to tell because the edge is cool when I touch it. So little happens with a razor once you have it in good condition that it's really hard to make many judgments. Iwasaki credited a barber on two different occasions with using a (non abrasive) linen and a strop to make over a thousand shaves. I'm pretty sure I could easily go a year with a solingen origin razor and the same, so there is so little wear that it's hard to really quantify anything.

Definitely different on a scythe where you're drawing out an edge. I think george may have told us that such a thing was common with bronze tools (drawing an edge out to work harden it for use)? I don't want to throw him under the bus, because if I got that wrong, it'll be because I didn't say what george said.

There is definitely edge rounding on loaded strops, and even on horse butt strip that's glassy and worn in, there must be some. I can literally tell by sight if a freshly honed edge has been stropped on leather, even if the leather is perfectly clean and doesn't change the polish. I'd assume that's rounding the edge the tiniest amount such that an almost microscopic sliver of light glints back. The strange thing is that it's always a sharper edge than the invisible edge straight off of a stone (which must be an edge that is littered with little steel fragments).

[Ryan Mooney]

Almost without fail if the finish stone was a polishing stone the first cut would feel and look sharper than the stropped edge finished on the same stone. By the second, third and fourth cuts the stropped edge would cut better and if examined under a 20X lope would show less fracturing than the non-stropped edge. YMMV.

What types of polishing stone have you compared against?

I'm wondering how much is the rounding vs the quality of the polishing. I suspect that both contribute at least some (a polished edge would have less fracture points) but don't know how much. Obviously the exact difference is mostly irrelevant in practice but its interesting to learn things :D

[Kees Heiden]

I've come to the conclusion that a slight "rounding of the edge" is one of the reasons to strop. Yes it will remove the wire edge with minimum breaking of the edge and that is important but the slight rounding retards fracturing of the edge. I've done A&B tests using different ways of sharpening with and with out using a strop. Almost without fail if the finish stone was a polishing stone the first cut would feel and look sharper than the stropped edge finished on the same stone. By the second, third and fourth cuts the stropped edge would cut better and if examined under a 20X lope would show less fracturing than the non-stropped edge. YMMV.

I would guess that you had sharpened the edge to too low a sharpening angle for that type of steel. When you round the edge using the strop you are increasing the included angle. if you had used a larger angle on the stones in the first place, I guess you wouln't see this fracturing within a few cuts.

[jamie shard]

I would guess that you had sharpened the edge to too low a sharpening angle for that type of steel. When you round the edge using the strop you are increasing the included angle. if you had used a larger angle on the stones in the first place, I guess you wouln't see this fracturing within a few cuts.

Maybe not. When the steel goes over the hard crystals, it can put localized pressure and tear out carbides or scratch deep grooves. It seems like the slight cushioning of the strop may give it a softer scratch and work to even out the surface, even if the size of the hard crystals are the same for both the stone and the strop.

[Kees Heiden]

But then I would expect the edge to have these nicks in the first place, but Ken writes that the edge was sharp at first, but fractures after a cut or 2 or 3.

Coarse grit is reputed to leave fractures in the edge deeper then the grit scratches. These fractures are not visible at first, but lead to nicking of the blade in use. But fine abrassives (I don't know how fine) don't have this effect. That's probably one reason why we hone the edge on a finer stone, not just on coarse grinding stone.

[jamie shard]

I think there can be stress fractures from the fine stone that aren't obvious which can get revealed with the first few cuts... but I agree it's probably pretty minor in the scheme of things. So I guess it depends on whether Ken is talking about significant fractures or something subtle.

[Warren Mickley]

All of the effects mentioned in this thread come into play. They all have scientific basis and can be demonstrated. However at the level we are interested, what is most important is experience and discernment. You need experience to get consistent results and you need the sensitivity to discern the effectiveness of a technique. As an example, we do not look at a chart and read 22.3 lbs/sq in. for a certain stone and steel etc. and calculate based on our chisel's bevel surface area. Much more effective is to get a feel for the stone and use intuition to determine the pressure. Try more or less pressure and discern the result.

In historical times some workers used powdered abrasives on a strop to make up for the lack of a fine stone. Some used abrasives that quickly break down so that there were finer and finer scratch patterns as they strop. Today these techniques are much less important because we don't have to pay a month's wages to buy fine, consistent stones. A clean dry strop will give the results we are looking for.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I always thought the strop was the finishing step, just to polish the edge. I've seen my dad use his jeans as a strop for years, the results are hard to argue with. I'm sure it gets rid of the wire edge, but it also brightens the edge, so I suspect its buffing it. He uses oilstones of some variety.

[Noah Wagener]

So stropping (with unloaded strop) for the most part seems to be for the purpose of removing the wire edge? And a piece of Jasper obviously is working in a different fashion than leather as it has no give to it. Is it that it is virtually unabrasive so that it is not adding to the wire edge like a fine stone might and it is just bending it back and forth till it breaks free? I have a Chinese slate hone that is pretty unabrasive. Could i polish it and use it in the same manner as the Jasper? I have seen a blacksmith on Youtube lay newspaper on his stone and strop on that.

I have been pulling blades along my arm just to see if it matters but it has had no effect. I tried the denim as Steve mentioned and it did seem to affect the edge. It also did seem that you could change the effectiveness from bevel to back with just a stroke. Would denim glued to wood make a decent strop? Some razor guy who sells Japanese naturals explicitly said not to use canvas in bold letters. I would think denim and canvas are pretty similar.


I think there can be stress fractures from the fine stone that aren't obvious which can get revealed with the first few cuts... but I agree it's probably pretty minor in the scheme of things. So I guess it depends on whether Ken is talking about significant fractures or something subtle.

Jaime, i have read that most natural stones leave a softer, more rounded u shaped scratch versus a v shaped, deeper scratch of modern synthetic abrasives. Someone even said that because of this rounded abrasive shape, smaller particles will cut faster than larger in Belgian coticules. He compared it to scratching with the back of a spoon or with a knife.

What is work hardening?

[Ryan Mooney]

What is work hardening?

Essentially if you deform a piece of metal repeatedly it will become harder. This is true of at least iron, copper, brass and bronze (and I suspect others). This was historically used to allow copper and bronze tools to get hard enough to actually cut instead of deforming. A slightly more modern use is you can peen (deform with a hammer and anvil) scythes in order to draw (thin) and harden the edge (this was commonly done on european designs anyway). A similar effect can be seen on modern railroad rails where the top is substantially harder than the material just underneath due to the wheels rolling over them. Its also important in some types of jewelry manufacture to make (say) a delicate piece of silver tough enough to not deform.

Its somewhat of a delicate balance as the more you harden it the more brittle the piece becomes as well. You can directly observe that by bending a piece of wire back and forth - eventually it snaps, but the areas around the break will also be harder than the rest of the wire (how much depends on the material, low carbon iron less so than high, etc..).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening


Whether or not stropping provides sufficient deformation to work harden an edge I don't know - probably not on something with as acute of an angle as most woodworking tools. There might be some long term effect with something that is repeatedly stropped and has a very thin edge like a razor.. maybe..

[lowell holmes]

And then some of us charge a scrap of mdf with green compound and strop with that. I used to use a piece of leather glued to a board with the compound.

I've been through several different sharpening scenario's including sharpening machines (gave it away), oil stones (can't stand the mess), water stones (can't stand the water)
and settled on diamond hones and a strop.

My chisels will shave white oak cross grain and planes will produce full width translucent shavings.

I quit over-thinking the process and just do it. I have sharpening jigs, but don't use them. I use Mike Dunbars method of free hand sharpening and it works for me.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Years ago, I used MDF with great luck: I charged it with an auto polishing/paint finishing compound "DuPont PerFectIt III". Easily gave a mirror finish and tiniest, baby fluff hair popping sharpness.

I quit using it at the same time I quit waterstones (or was it Scary Sharp?), as it took extra steps to gather everything. Just easier & quicker to go washita, hard ark. and maybe a few licks on a strop. Everyone once in a while (such as flattening a new or vintage chisel up for the first time) I get the MDF & DuPont stuff out, just to put a mirror finish on after flattening.

[ken hatch]

What types of polishing stone have you compared against?

I'm wondering how much is the rounding vs the quality of the polishing. I suspect that both contribute at least some (a polished edge would have less fracture points) but don't know how much. Obviously the exact difference is mostly irrelevant in practice but its interesting to learn things :D

Ryan,

Pretty much all of 'em, from Shapton 16000 to Transparent Arkansas with diamond in between. Sharpening Freehand or with Ellipse (real and knockoff), Veritas (both kinds) jigs and using a Tormek T7 with the 3000 Japanese water stone. The results are the same, the stropped iron will hold a working edge longer. The slight dubbing prevents early edge fracture i.e.the first time metal meets wood. It all comes back to the guys working wood back in the Master/Apprentice time knew what they were doing. We in many ways have better tools today but most of the time if we can figure out how the old guys did it and why we will find a better way. I think this is one of 'em. YMMV

ken

[ken hatch]

I would guess that you had sharpened the edge to too low a sharpening angle for that type of steel. When you round the edge using the strop you are increasing the included angle. if you had used a larger angle on the stones in the first place, I guess you wouln't see this fracturing within a few cuts.

Kees,

Angle makes no never mind at least within normal working angles, of course less acute will fracture less than the more acute but, ceteris paribus, the stropped edge will hold a working edge longer.

ken

[David Weaver]

There is a lot to avoiding chipping and keeping the wear as the determinant that prescribes resharpening. When I tested A2 irons, probably 7 years ago now, I could find the iron that was just starting to chip around 100-200 strokes on hard maple, and that would be the first one to fail, and the difference in longevity is substantial. Not to mention the surface left was better and the amount you'd sharpen off would be less.

George has said time and again here that he likes irons that are a tick off of the highest hardness because they don't chip. I'd agree with that.

[george wilson]

I don't recall saying anything about hardening bronze tools. But then,my memory isn't what it used to be.

[Kees Heiden]

Steve Elliott has done and documented a lot of wear tests on plane irons of various kinds of steel with varying bevel angles. His results are here:
http://bladetest.infillplane.com/html/bevel_angles.html

His angles were higher then usually recomended. At 30 degrees he could observe chipping on all of them. A2 chipped even at 32 degrees.

Not knowing what angles you used I don't know how that would correlate to Steve's tests.

[David Weaver]

"Charlesworth's method" has the final bevel at 35 degrees, which only gives 10 degrees of clearance. However, with good A2 there will be no chipping. I think steve liked 33 or 34 degrees in his test, and though I never tested specific angles, when using a2 for final smoothing (where final really is final and you want no chips that make little lines in the surface), charlesworth's method is excellent to ensure no lines of any type in a planed surface.

It is a subtle thing to do 35 vs. 30, but I'd imagine that given the wear resistance of A2, the iron will last just as long at 35 degrees as it would have at 30, and you will need only to raise a wire edge large enough to remove the wear rather than wear and small chipping.

[Kees Heiden]

I haven't experience with A2. On the several vintage plane irons I use, chipping hasn't been a (obvious) problem. I target my freehand honing at 30 degrees or so, no stropping. With chisels I have had my fair share of chipping, usually a slightly higher angle helps a lot.

[David Weaver]

Good a2 and carbon steel are hard to distinguish at a given hardness, except the A2 is harder to abrade on a stone. If you want to drive yourself nuts, try finish smoothing a board so that you can't see any tiny lines or evidence that a plane was on it when you look at the board in raking light. That is the degree of nuttiness where that angle that steve is talking about comes into play.

My feeling on it (avoiding the chipping to extend the duration of the blade) is that if you're going to buy an abrasion resistant steel and spend a little more time sharpening it, which really I guess isn't much of anything on modern stones, but if you're going to buy the abrasion resistant steel, it makes a lot of sense to avoid early failure via chipping. IME planing panels, A2 (good a2) will plane 1/2 again as much as O1 at the same hardness before the clearance is gone. that's on an apples to apples comparison with hock's irons. I don't find there to be that much difference in longevity with a hock O1 and a good quality stanley vintage iron.

[Gary Muto]

Thanks to everyone for their contributions. I learned more about what stropping does and it's value from this thread than any other single source... probably multiple sources. I've had good luck using CrOx on MDF but I'm really interesting in investing in some Leather for stropping.

So, any recommedations on stropping material?

[Winton Applegate]

I was going to avoid this thread like the plague but THEN . . .
. . . while looking for my source for peening dovetail pins I ran across these drawings in my “To File” file folder.
So
This is why I avoid strops.
I suspect even the ‘Hard” strops do this to some extent.
Evil things, strops.

anyway here are a couple of drawings I made back in the day when I still had the energy to get in there and bang the table about this.

Not any more.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Strop1_zpsac9009b2.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Strop1_zpsac9009b2.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Strop2_zps322f91e7.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Strop2_zps322f91e7.jpg.html)

[Kees Heiden]

In theory you are right. In practice though, you shouldn't forget that millions of woodworkers over the centuries have stropped their edges. Not all of them were stupid, I guess.

[Warren Mickley]

In theory you are right. In practice though, you shouldn't forget that millions of woodworkers over the centuries have stropped their edges. Not all of them were stupid, I guess.

Thanks for this, Kees. We don't just read a book and follow a recipe on how to sharpen. We strop because we can notice that it makes a difference and is well worth the time.

[David Weaver]

Winton, most of the logical about how bad strops are is exactly as you've shown, pictures that in practice don't really work the way the pictures do.

I can't say too much about the sellers type of stropping where he's substituting a loaded strop for a finish stone, but with a bare leather strop, there's not enough wear for those pictures to be relevant.

If you run an iron up through a one micron stone, a bare strop and light pressure will still make an iron more keen, though with little practical gain.

If you finish with something else, the strop will improve the edge significantly - increasing uniformity, which is a good thing.

I can only repeat what kees and warren say, and add that you can misuse a strop and create a problem with it, but in practice, there is a significant gain where a strop is beneficial. I went around for several years totally obsessed with guarding geometry and didn't really understand what a bare leather strop does until I started shaving with a straight razor.

[Daniel Rode]

I've been reading this with keen interest. I initially started stropping because I didn't have a fine enough stone for finishing. The process was a bit like Seller's but without the convex bevel. I glued some thin suede leather to MDF and charged it with CrO2 and hit the edge with 20-30 strokes after the 5k stone.

I've since bought a 15k finishing stone. I think I get a more consistent edge from the stone than I did from using the strop. For me, consistency is really important. I'm beginning to get the best consistent results by lightly stropping with a few strokes after the 15k stone. I'll also go to the strop or the 15k + strop to touch up the edge quickly between full re-honing.

I don't have much theory or math behind this method. It's more a feel for how the chisel or plane is cutting. I've tried various things people here suggest and this is what's working for me today.

[Terry Beadle]

There's a feller on youtube that uses a piece of newspaper to do the final stropping. I think after the use of a 6K stone. I've tried it on kitchen knives and it seems to work. I don't know what grit newsprint equates to but I'll bet it's really fine. Now my taco tomato chunks are precisely cut and later ground on old teeth...ie Mine ! Hoot!

He puts the newspaper scrap, one thickness, onto the stone and then strops a bit, moves to an area not used yet on the page of newsprint, and then strops a bit more.

Any one know what the grit is on the newsprint?

[paul cottingham]

I think it is interesting that Sellers at least appears to be stropping with a great deal of force. This may be possible (without dubbing) due to his convex edge, I'm really not sure.

I strop after an 8000, probably more due to obsessiveness than necessity. I should try a lighter touch, I suspect I will get better results that way.

[Daniel Rode]

I've tried Seller's method with and without the convex bevel. The up side is that you never have to re-grind when the micro-bevel gets too wide. It works but I never felt like I could get the chisel or plane iron back to a know point with a specific angle and sharpness. To be fair, I have the same issue hand sharpening with a primary/secondary bevel but I can use a guide to get the consistency I want.

If I were able to do it consistently, I'd probably switch to the single convex bevel. At least for chisels. In practice, I think it's simpler than using dual bevel.


I think it is interesting that Sellers at least appears to be stropping with a great deal of force. This may be possible (without dubbing) due to his convex edge, I'm really not sure.

I strop after an 8000, probably more due to obsessiveness than necessity. I should try a lighter touch, I suspect I will get better results that way.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I generally always strop. And through the years, I've gotten to the point where I don't think about how I strop! I just do it! If I try to remember what is supposedly the right or wrong way, I screw up. Washita, to hard arkansas to a few licks on the strop. Hair popping sharp UNLESS I stop to think did so and so say to do it this way or did so and so say not to do it this way.

[Ryan Mooney]

Any one know what the grit is on the newsprint?

Depends on the filler used: http://www.specialtyminerals.com/fileadmin/user_upload/smi/Publications/S-PA-AT-PB-42.pdf
Not sure what all's used for newsprint, probably mostly one of the calcite minerals would be the largest of the abrasive size.

[Jim Matthews]

In theory you are right. In practice though, you shouldn't forget that millions of woodworkers over the centuries have stropped their edges. Not all of them were stupid, I guess.

I dunno. I'm pretty dense.
Just ask my kids, they'll confirm it.

I think the strop is a touch up step.
I can use it repeatedly, before the iron needs to go back to the stone.

The "give" or resilience of the leather in a strop means that the abrasive isn't cutting
the way the it will on a harder medium. I can't speak to how it works on MDF or other substrates.

Leather on a wooden block is enough to keep me going between honing sessions,
without transferring any mess to my bench.

[Jim Matthews]

Buy a pack of scraps from a local belt maker, or try Harry Epstein (http://store.harryepstein.com/cp/LeatherFarmerBundle/3FB.html).

Apply to a flat block of hardwood with contact adhesive.

I made mine with the rough side facing up.

I like to have a block about 10 inches long, 4 inches (or so) wide.

[Winton Applegate]

how the chisel or plane is cutting

It may come as a surprise but you CAN NOT group chisels and plane blades in the same sharpening category.
Carving chisels are for the most part happy after using a strop EVEN ON THE SUEDE STROP.

Not so the plane blade.

Shaving can not be compared to planing purple heart. See drawing of soft material conforming to the roundy blade.

As I said no real energy for all this. David and I have crossed swords on this until no body even watches the blood bath any more.
He is right for the work he does.
I am right for the silly hard woods I learned on.
If any one wants to experiment try the silly hardwoods and no strop then the strop. Not a few swipes but a table top's worth.
Relax for every thing else. If you have to . . . I suppose . . .

[David Weaver]

Side comment from tonight, by chance (no really, earlier and not after I read your post, though I did have to actually go take pictures after I read your post).

Early on, I got hooked on HSS because I made a couple of infills and planed a bunch of cocobolo, but I didn't probably give the carbon steel an objective chance. Especially in the context that most of us won't use stuff like cocobolo very often (especially not me now, it's kind of a waste of money).

But with all of this talk lately about double iron planes, it seemed like it might be a nice time to build a coffin smoother. I don't even like coffin smoother. About 4 years ago, I bought a 4x9x9 cocobolo blank that looked close to quartered to make an infill smoother. I'd rather not work it for a smoother, so it might be enough for two coffin smoothers and wedges and it's actually dry now.

Using my washita only, I was able with a stock stanley iron (1920s maybe?) to face two sides of the block so they are square. Ripped it by hand, too. Certainly it's not a tabletop, but I think I could plane a tabletop without problems.

I had been under the impression that the washita might not have enough spank to get the edge to where it needs to be in terms of sharpness. Plus, if you plane cocobolo much, you know that there are bits of it super hard and then bits that must not be because it tears pretty easily.

Anyway, this plane acquitted itself well tonight, a lot better than I thought it would. I still have three planes with HSS irons, but I think I'll do this whole plane with vintage tools - carbon steel.

Eye opening.

(i did strop the edge on bare leather).

287749287750

I don't remember any knock down drag outs over this, maybe we had a discussion about absolute sharpness? (sure thing, horse butt that's broken in until it's reflective will bring you an edge you won't experience in woodworking).

My desire for wondersteel* is long gone now. If I had an iron that wouldn't hold an edge long enough for me to tolerate (which can be a problem in glinty cocobolo), I'd just take thicker shavings.

* there is still something super wonderful about hand forged carbon steel irons, that's the kind of wondersteel I like.

[Winton Applegate]

We don't just read a book and follow a recipe on how to sharpen.

In the words of Sherlock Holmes, written by Conan Doyle who based his Sherlock Character to a large extent on Dr. Bell who mentored Doyle

Some detectives fail to rise in their field due to a lack of imagination and visualization.

Can you gentlemen at least for a moment consider that there could possibly be a level of edge QUALITY . . . AS SHARP as a leather stropped edge but with qualities beyond a leather stropped edge ? One that resists edge deformation better, that stays sharp longer before it begins to leave chatter marks from dulling due to less dubbing from the sharpening process and so has more time to dub from actually cutting through wood ?

And before I leave this purgatory of minutia let me submit for your consideration . . .
how many Japanese wood workers have you seen working in the traditional ways who strop?

PS: As far as whether the old dudes were smart or not . . . I bet a lot smoked cigarettes . . . we now know that is DUMB to do. They heated their shops with wood. If every body in a city did that we would all be sick or dead . . . so they were poisoning them selves and their neighbors (substitute coal for wood and you have what happened in London) . . . that is dumb. They worked with what they had and did the best they could with what they had. . . maybe. . . maybe not . . ..


We know better now. If they had and knew what we do they may have proceeded differently.

[Kees Heiden]

The moral of this story: Do not make tabletops from purple heart! ;)

[Winton Applegate]

Hi David,

My post before this one is for Kees and the guys. Not for you particularly. You have done all the possible options of sharpening to know EXACTLY what you need from your sharpening. As I said in other threads I totally respect that.

The cocobolo is BEAUTIFUL and I look forward to your plane. Hey . . . since you won't like it when you get it done
I don't even like coffin smoother.. . . can I have it ?

:)

ha, ha, ha

What stood out though in your photos for me was that your plane is as large as the surface you are planing. Run that plane blade down a plank five or eight feet long and a foot wide ,
of a similar wood
(though I have never had any trouble planing cocobolo)
to take off a significant amount of wood and all this 'SILLY minutia" that I am attempting to get the others to at least consider,
who have not done all the research that you have, ;
will begin to look less minute and more substantial.

[Winton Applegate]

Kees,
The moral of YOUR story is don't get more edge life out of each of your trips to the sharpening paraphernalia just keep doing your one trick.
;)

[Winton Applegate]

Terry,

Any one know what the grit is on the newsprint?

Ha, ha,
Tomatos are one of my tests for kitchen knife sharpness though I prefer a hard fresh bell pepper. The test is will the edge sink into the skin when touched tangentially on the side of the toe/pep under the weight of the knife and hang there.
When that happens while you watch it is kind of scary.
BUT
I woldn't dream of that test for a plane blade it is irrelevant.

Now to the news print :
I beleve the best quality news print comes from the northern side of Mt. Fuji and is layed in the months of november through march any thing before or after that is considered inferior. The best of the Mt Fuji news print has been generally gauged at about 10,000 grit.

Western News print from New York city is quite high quality but was found to not spit nearly as many hairs as the news print from Washington D.C.
but allas the grit was found to not hold up as well as the Japanese versions.

This is all ignoring the ROCKS in the paper that are on the order of 800 grit give or take a whole order of magnitude.

Glad I was able to answer your question. Keep your calls and donations coming.
Tell all your friends and spread the good word.

Isaiah could I have the next caller please ?

[Kees Heiden]

Kees,
The moral of YOUR story is don't get more edge life out of each of your trips to the sharpening paraphernalia just keep doing your one trick.
;)

Actually I don't strop much myself either. I get good edges from an 8000 Naniwa stone, have often looked for other sharpening stuff, but didn't venture there yet. At the moment I am slowy accumulating a small set of oilstones, so I am going to experiment with them. A strop is more or less compulsory then, as far as I understand.

But I don't particularly like the looks of purple heart or cocobolo or bubinga. So that makes my life a lot easier and cheaper.

Did you experiment with stropping when planing these woods with high cutting angles?

[Warren Mickley]

Winton, I have been stropping on bare leather since 1965. I think some of your notions are based on fantasy rather than experience.

[David Weaver]

In the words of Sherlock Holmes, written by Conan Doyle who based his Sherlock Character to a large extent on Dr. Bell who mentored Doyle

Some detectives fail to rise in their field due to a lack of imagination and visualization.

Can you gentlemen at least for a moment consider that there could possibly be a level of edge QUALITY . . . AS SHARP as a leather stropped edge but with qualities beyond a leather stropped edge ? One that resists edge deformation better, that stays sharp longer before it begins to leave chatter marks from dulling due to less dubbing from the sharpening process and so has more time to dub from actually cutting through wood ?



If the edge is stopped properly, then no. But I doubt most people strop an edge properly to improve 0.1 micron iron oxide - you have to have a smooth strop (and beyond just reaching down and touching your belt and saying "oh, that's smooth"), it needs to be clean, and you have to have good touch.

If you're honing a razor, you can improve iron oxide just a little bit - make it sever a hair even easier than it already does, and probably add durability to it (who would know?) - that is so keen it fills my face with weepers. Chris G likes the iron oxide, though.

I would imagine if you, me, or anyone else used 0.3 micron chromium oxide, we'd find that a stropped edge didn't last any longer in wood - you blast off the last little bit of sharpness in the first few strokes. It matters more that an edge doesn't chip. but in the end, that's not easier to deal with. *that* has to stay clean, it gets on you in your fingers, and then stains clothes. Maybe tiny diamonds are a decent answer, I don't know.


And before I leave this purgatory of minutia let me submit for your consideration . . .
how many Japanese wood workers have you seen working in the traditional ways who strop?.

Well, they do strop their razors (both generations of iwasakis suggested it, linen and strop). There's a happy range of metals for a strop - somewhere between 57 hardness and low 60s. When you get into edges like 65 hardness, and especially in the plainest carbon steels, they don't seem to respond that much to a strop, I don't know why and never examined why - too hard to allow deformation in the right minute amount is my guess. At that hardness, though, they still respond a little when you're maintaining a low wear ultra keen edge like a razor.

I don't think this is an issue of "knowing better" now. Lapidary powders and pigments have been available for centuries.

AS far as my planing of cocobolo goes - you're right - it's a small block. I had glinty cocobolo (the kind that winks back at you) one time in a turning blank that literally dulled an a2 iron trying to remove 1/8th inch thickness from an already coped tote. That's what drove me over the edge to HSS. HSS lasts a bit longer in regular wood, but when the wood gets glinty, the gap widens enormously.

I'd plane a long table top with the stock stanley, same principle - thicker shavings until thin are needed. I didn't really get that back when I bought all of the HSS - I just wanted to be able to creep up on square and final thickness/width very slowly, and that's exactly what I did.

I'll give you the smoother if it doesn't turn out well! I have two blocks to make it - progress is ensured to be very slow for two reasons - I have too much other stuff to do, and it's hard to get any time in the shop at all lately, and 2 - I don't need the plane. I'm hoping that something about the density makes it nicer to me than a beech coffin smoother.

You are right, it's easier to grasp all of this stuff once you've tried everything. If I'd have come to vintage plane with novaculite finishers first, I'd still have tried all of the rest. My first stones were an 800/1200/6000 king set. They worked well enough, but I replaced them anyway. We (most of us at least) have to screw around to satisfy our curiosity, because in the end, this is about screwing around for most of us.

[David Weaver]

One other side comment - the things I thought when I thought them earlier on aren't what I thought, and the things I think now when I plane cocobolo are different :)

You know it's coming....wait for it....

..the double iron in a stanley plane makes all the difference planing cocobolo. It planes easily when it's properly set. All of the notions about the iron being too thin or not lasting long enough, etc, have a lot to do with not having the plane set up correctly. If you let the wood tear out on you, it will present all kinds of shortcomings ("oh, the plane must be dull. oh, the iron is too thin. Oh, the iron's not hard enough to handle this wood"). But if the double iron is set up properly, even on a thick shaving the tearing is very minimal and the planing pleasant.

I wasn't ready to hear that 6 or 7 years ago or whatever it was when I got all of the other stuff. Just like I'm not smart enough to avoid making a plane right now that I'll just set aside in favor of a plain stanley #4. I do have that cocobolo blank, and it cost me 90 bucks and I waited for it to dry. I'm certainly not going to let it die a humiliating death, such as being turned into a bowl or made into pen blanks.

But like kees - my eyes don't find much favor for it (cocobolo) anymore. It's just something interesting to try because I *know* I don't like the weight of the beech plane and bump starting them.

[Pat Barry]

All this talk about stropping got me wondering, what is the proper angle to hold the tool being stropped? Do you try to match the grind angle, match the secondary bevel angle, raise the tool more perpendicular than the grind angle? Do you strop only in one direction or back and forth? How much pressure should be applied?

I can't believe the number of questions. I would love to watch an instructional video on this topic.

PS .I never thought there would be so much discussion about stropping.

[paul cottingham]

All this talk about stropping got me wondering, what is the proper angle to hold the tool being stropped? Do you try to match the grind angle, match the secondary bevel angle, raise the tool more perpendicular than the grind angle? Do you strop only in one direction or back and forth? How much pressure should be applied?

I can't believe the number of questions. I would love to watch an instructional video on this topic.

PS .I never thought there would be so much discussion about stropping.

I was going to ask this myself, but was afraid I would find out I have been doing it all wrong.... :-)

[David Weaver]

strop close to the angle of the edge. Leather doesn't abrade much but it has a very very mild capability to do it.

Pressure is dependent on how fine the edge is. On a fine edge, pressure does not have to be much. best results come from stropping both sides of a tool. A few strokes on the bevel, one with the tool flat..repeat two or three times.

if an edge has to be stropped hard, it probably wasn't ready to come to the strop. If it leaves lines on the strop after the first pull or two, it wasn't ready to come to the strop.

On a razor, these things become very critical, but razor stropping is also reflexive once you do it for a couple of weeks. A rolled edge, for example, from inexperience, means a razor that will be too dull to be comfortably shaved with. Not such a big deal on a tool.

Properly stropped, though, a tool edge will shave hair pretty easily from either side. An edge in need of stropping may only shave hair easily on one side. You can see how much influence the strop has on a hardened steel edge by deliberately applying stiff pressure on the bevel side, and then checking how the strop will shave on either side, and then do the other side, check again. Follow that by lighter pressure even strokes back and bevel (so that you're not deliberately bending the edge) and then check again.

It's easier to do it than talk about it - it should take about 10-15 seconds.

[David Weaver]

I was going to ask this myself, but was afraid I would find out I have been doing it all wrong.... :-)

If it works, it's right!

[Doug Bowman]

Admittedly I am a stropping newb - but I find the strop to be very easy to freehand on. When you have the angle correct on the bevel there is very little resistance to drawiing the blade across the strop. Too low or too high and it feels very different. and of course the back is easy.

[Brian Holcombe]

Forgive my ignorance; why would one chose to strop over doing a 1/2 stroke on a fine grit stone to take off the burr?

[David Weaver]

How fine of a grit are you thinking?

the strop does very little to the edge other than pull off a wire edge and do a very light amount of work to the edge. A stone is certainly OK to use (owyhee/biggs jasper is great as a wire edge chaser that needs no care other than to be kept clean).

Otherwise, it's somewhat of a 6 of one or half dozen of another if the finest stone you use already does what you need, except the strop needs very little attention.

[Brian Holcombe]

That's my understanding as well, which i suppose is why I've never really looked into the strop much beyond the surface level.

I finish with a 6000 whetstone.

[David Weaver]

It will improve an edge off of a 6000 grit waterstone, but so too would a $10 piece of jasper.

Generally, the fatter and wider the grooves (like from novaculite) the better the response from a strop. There are probably times where you feel like you get an impossibly sharp edge from a 6k stone, because the wire edge has seprated by chance and left a clean edge, and maybe other times where it feels more standard. When you use a strop, they're all the same.

But japanese stones step up a little less in sharpness because of the deeper narrower grooves.

Jasper is nice because it just *barely*, cuts, but it doesn't leave much of a wire edge when it does either, and other than keeping the dust off of it, it requires practically no care. And a 6x4 jasper slab is about...well, ten bucks.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks for your insight as always. I have experienced that with this stone and I've found it difficult to have a perfectly repeatable result, but often I'm usually satisfied with the edge. I'll have to work a strop into the routine.

[Winton Applegate]

. . . just as I think of you.

I recommend one of the many Chet Baker version of that song over the Mel Torme though both are awesome.

Apparently I just can’t get enough of minutia vill.

Ha, ha,
the truth is I had to come back here and find out if David was going to give me the nice cocobolo smoother once he finished it.

Ha, ha
No soap it sounds like.


Winton, I have been stropping on bare leather since 1965. I think some of your notions are based on fantasy rather than experience.

Wellllll . . .
I do enjoy what happens inside of my head.
Though I must say I am a keen observer of what happens outside my head.
Maybe that is why I enjoy the inside of my head even more.

But to answer the " rather than experience" part.
Yah in your fantasy world that would be true.
But
in actuality let me show ya a few pics and recount some experiences

David doesn’t remember having this out sooooo many times I bet I could post five threads but here is one. The reason I post it is there are photos and a link to Fine Woodworking’s site for an article

(I am worn out putting this all together over and over so I think I will just post links to past threads with those)

any way everyone should read this FWW article if they want the real deal on sharpening METHODS COMPARED not just one.
A truly great article with microscope photos from a research lab and actual cutting of wood with the various methods compared.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?205548-Plain-Stropping-Looking-for-Advice/page2 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?205548-Plain-Stropping-Looking-for-Advice/page2)

Bare leather
two things
to be fare I have never used the really hard horse butt strops or what not that David likes.
One thing I did try that was a waste of effort was I put Semi-chrome on one of my soft strops and it did nothing. I then went to the other soft strop with the green stick stuff and it improved the edge.
then I went to my other strop with the yellow stick stuff which I prefer and that was much better.

I am talking many blades not just one on all three.
I would think that if a bare strop was all great and stuff that the Semi-chrome would have been at least in the ball park.

But then from the above it does sound like all my stropping has been just imagination.
That was sarcasm. One of my customers was wearing a T-shirt the other day. Her shirt said SARCASM (just one of my many talents).


All this talk about stropping got me wondering, what is the proper angle to hold the tool being stropped? Do you try to match the grind angle, match the secondary bevel angle, raise the tool more perpendicular than the grind angle?

The proper angle to hold the tool at while stropping, in my experienced opinion is so that the strop never actually touches the cutting edge so as not to ruin all the work you did on your finish stones. Strop the other non cutting edges of the blade if you have to get this stropping nonsense out of your system but avoid touching the cutting edge with the strop.
:)


Do you strop only in one direction or back and forth? How much pressure should be applied?
Back and forth would slice up the strop. Being a non stropper I am all for that so as to make the strop fit into the trash can easier and so take up as little space while there as possible. My strops are long and I couldn’t get the lid on of i didn’t roll them up or chop them up.
Go for it I say. Lots of pressure back and forth.


I can't believe the number of questions. I would love to watch an instructional video on this topic.
Oh just make something up in your head and watch that.
That is what Warren IMAGINED I did.
:)


PS .I never thought there would be so much discussion about stropping.
Stropping is popular because it takes no talent or real attention.
Anybody can do it and if there is enough yellow abrasive on the leather it can actually make the edge cut arm hair better.
so for those looking for an easy test that is very satisfying.
Even I can do it.

If one wants the rigour and the benefits of rigour :
find a flat surface to flatten stones on
flatten your stones.
have enough stones to make a well polished edge I think four is the minimum.
700 though at least 8000
use a Varitas jig with the cambered roller; free handing is hit and miss and so the popularity of the strop to do the final work.
sharpen where one has plenty of water to wash away the swarf and the all holy slurry
work the edge to remove the bur. Takes time and experience and shorter and shorter strokes working down to one partial stroke on each side alternating.
Here the strop looks attractive because it gets rid of that wire edge quick. Not the right way though.

Kees,

Did you experiment with stropping when planing these woods with high cutting angles?
ALL my experiments have been just that.
Hell, any body can cut walnut or maple or oak unless we are getting into the problem areas like the crotch walnut or birds eye maple.

But . . . yes . . . that was WHY I went crazy with all this sharpening extreme
fill in the blank _______
I will say it again
Strop for cutting hair. Jig and stones for cutting wood with a plane blade.

[David Barnett]

I recommend one of the many Chet Baker version of that song over the Mel Torme though both are awesome.
. . . . .

Bare leather
two things
to be fare[sic] I have never used the really hard horse butt strops or what not that David [Weaver] likes.

. . . . .

Stropping is popular because it takes no talent or real attention.
Anybody can do it and if there is enough yellow abrasive on the leather it can actually make the edge cut arm hair better. so for those looking for an easy test that is very satisfying. Even I can do it.

. . . . .

Strop for cutting hair. Jig and stones for cutting wood with a plane blade.

Firstly, let me say I wholly accord with your preference for Chet Baker over the Velvet Frog, but that's where I must depart.


Apparently I just can’t get enough of minutia vill.

Good, because considerable follows in the provided link.

Drawing from my experiences in cutting, faceting and polishing gems, fabricating and maintaining thin-section histology microtome knives and sharpening the occasional chisel, I'd like to add Sir George Beilby and his Aggregation and Flow of Solids (https://archive.org/details/aggregationandf00beilgoog)* to the discussion.

At this early stage in stating my case, I will exercise uncharacteristic restraint and simply point out the term 'flow' in the above title, for one really needs to understand the flow of solids and amorphous crystalline character of the Beilby layer before one can appreciate the difference between successive surface refinements by ever smaller abrasives versus exploiting Beilby flow—that is, the flow of solid state substances in the Beilby layer, and by extension. understand and appreciate what stropping is and does. At least that's my take on it.

To whet your appetite, scratch the surface, to hone, narrow, constrain our focus I'll offer this brief review of A&FoS in Nature, A Searchlight on Solids (http://books.google.com/books?id=cTU6AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=stropping+beilby+layer&source=bl&ots=IAseZbDhNv&sig=LRaJXVh82GwuJemnqyh2L5vIf4Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=M85cU-jwNqipsQT_noHIDw&ved=0CFMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=stropping%20beilby%20layer&f=true), pages 262 through 265, March 2, 1922. Then, after a reading or two of the juiciest passages in A&FoS, we can discuss the subject with a shared frame of reference, and perhaps non sequiturize into such esoterica as the effects of steam on stropping high carbon steel edges, and so on.

At any rate, revel in the minutia! You might even change your mind. Or not.

*Being the records of an experimental study of the micro-structure and physical properties of solids in various states of aggregation, 1900 - 1921